City Council · Regular Meeting · April 18, 2024

Before us on the consent agenda is for property going to the Durham Community Land trustees which is our local land trust hope you all saw the the memo the backup and saw the 99 year affordability in The Proposal so very impressive stuff also wanted to mention these are five Lots there'll be four single family homes and one duplex two of the single family homes also have adus attached to them which provides an additional way for homeowners to build wealth provide additional housing promote density so this all good stuff in this proposal I know during the scad debate last year there was a lot of talk about well adus are only for wealthy families and so I just want to I want to salute the Durham Community Land Trustees for showing this tool can be used for a range of families not just wealthy families in Durham so it's really powerful proposal and I just want to say I want to shout out I think sher's here in the back thank you.

Sher and your colleagues at Durham Community L TR I hope we can find other ways to continue working with dclt in the future thank you Mr Mayor thank you good council member cook thank you hi Mr Johnson I pulled this item I know there's a couple of agenda items about this plan this one in particular I was curious to ask about some of the arpa funding I had raised this a few weeks ago at one of our work sessions and I think the the question that I have and and I had been and I would still like to pose to you once more it seems like we're we're seeing some of these arpa funded projects coming back seeking more funding again I think we talked about last time how that happens of course the cost of of resources goes up and and other I think there was some conversation in here about tax rates and also then potential loss of loan down payment amounts I understand how the numbers increase but there is some.

Discussion in here that AR there is going to be arpa funding to cover part of that increase along with some other funding and I was just wondering we could speak to that my question about this was that I thought that the arpa funding was finished and I had previously asked if there were other kind of things in the works that might come back and and place some Demand on on more ARP of spending and whether or not we had that in a bank looking forward so I was hoping you could address that so I'll be glad to Reginal Johnson director Community Development Department as I mentioned when we discussed this before the oper funding that we have the city had decided that we would put 13 A5 million dollar into funding affordable housing and we were mainly doing that on projects that we had not been able to fund and the county actually had some resources also some ARA funding that they actually gave to us to match what.

We were putting in for our funding to come up with actually a pool of $27 million and one of the projects that was funded and of course we have a list of those projects one of the projects that was funded was a portion of the Southside South lost at Southside to the tune of $2.7 million I think that's 2.7 just under 2.8 and that still was not enough but that was a portion of what was needed to complete this project so I think we might be talking about a question of timing because when we that allocation was made the second allocation was made and we talked with the county about it and I pres I remember presenting before the County Commissioners I did share with him that this was part that was needed for for this particular project that was basically all the resources that we had in terms of oper funding but that didn't complete it at that time so I don't know if that begins to answer your.

Question and I think I had this trouble with the last one that I had raised as well the numbers what is your understanding of how much the project has increased like what is our what was our original commitment and then what is our what is the request now so our original commitment to this project was about $7.7 million this was during the time before we had the escalations and the cost increases indeed before Co because the application that went in went in before Co we have one of our vice president of mccor Baron salaz Miss Tracy s is is here to talk about that but so that was the initial Gap then as the project we kept the project on on track there was another increase increases which we outlined that resulted in about $8 million gap just under $8 million gap and that's what we're talking about here year we were able to put together resources once so we wouldn't lose the tax credits to be able to complete the funding necessary to.

Move forward with the. Project when you talk about the $8 million gap just so I'm clear is it an addition to the seven million or so it is a total yes that's what I understood yes ma'am it is and if you don't want is you're preparing your next question I would just go ahead to share that this is one of the last projects that that did apply before all of the cost increases and one of the things that I shared with the council those that were here will remember that I thought that we the best thing for us to do is to go ahead and support the projects as best we could so that we didn't lose any projects and we fortunately I'm glad to say that we have not lost any projects that applied in one economy right and then by the time they got to a different part of the process we were in a different economy and then there the results were dramatic increases and I recommended to the.

Council that yes it's gonna cost us but it would be best for us to go ahead because it's not going get any cheaper yeah and I appreciate your work on that because and my colleague raised this earlier but of course we're always looking for affordability and Longevity and we've got units in this project that are set to be affordable for 30 years and then we've got many more units that are set to be affordable for 50 years which is an incredible number so I appreciate your work on this and and of course always appreciate you answering my questions think that's all I have thank you thank you council member and number 15 oh I'm sorry thanks Mr Johnson want to ask a question about the the the tax credit side of the this proposal so as I understand for phases three and four they were anticipated two 9% tax credit Awards correct so it's a 2% I mean I'm sorry it's a 9% and a 4 per so it's two.

Two tax credits one n% 14% one n% 14% And as I understand from the background reading so that there was a decision made back a few years ago to delay one application because DHA was also preparing to apply for a 9% tax credit as I understand we typically in Durham get like one 9% tax credit per year is that right roughly yes that is correct basically the way the the qualified C qualified allocations plan of the North Carolina Housing Finance Agency is structured we basically get one per year that it's actually competitive we have to compete for that one 4% right 9% % the 4% are not is it's a n it's a 9% we have to compete and one of the things in terms of not just the city but the community we really need to you know have strategies that include us coming being successful with that one and so we do know that we are supporting the Housing Authority in its applications because they will have.

A series of nine% over several years so yeah so this is my question then right this exactly that so I know that so we're talking about housing authority stuff we've got Southside we now we're we're going to be talking about 505 pretty soon which also I think was going to anticipate one or more 9% tax credit deals so is there a strategy at the city and if so what is that strategy for sort of lining these things up so developers and our partners will know like who is in line for those 9% because it sounds like we got several years we're anticipating of 9% deals we want to get right so what is there a strategy there what does that look like there is there is a strategy and involves primarily first the Housing Authority and supporting the Housing Authority for its series of 9% as they go through the Redevelopment the downtown and neighborhood revation plan and others so that's number one however as I was just saying it's.

Competitive we can't just submit have them to sub and assume right yeah right and assume so many respects many years we've had backups so we either have them to submit two applications that we've done that before or we come up with another fun another applicant that to stand in the the computer also because we need to we can't just put all of our eggs in one basket and come back with no application and that has happened before also so I guess I guess I'll say so this is probably a separate conversation but as we as we think about other projects like 505 that are anticipating 9% tax credit deals it seems like there's almost like a backlog and it seems like as we think about 505 we should have some sense of like what's the potential for 505 also succeeding with other stuff that's already at the table so I'd love at some point to have a conversation about what are our expectations is there a backlog and how.

To we how do we properly plan for all that well there there is if you're using the term backlog there is more than one entity that wants 9% and but we only get one okay so one of the things that I would share would that we do have to go to 4 perents which is what some people are are some entities are doing what we would have to do was make sure that we have resources to be able to supplement the for the 4% that's what exactly yeah so there's some for us to sort of have some sense of like what are what is our potential obligation for projects that may not get the 9% and that we'll be requesting more City funds because they only get four so so having some some line of sight on that would be really helpful and so one of the things that that that we we do for example this particular project we had basically this is Southside we had not necessarily plan to bring that one.

Forward in terms of Sugg in that they all apply for a tax credit but that particular year that they were applying for tax credits the Housing Authority switched this plan and so that left us without a a application that was going in that stood a good chance and so we end up talking with McCullough/Barron Salazar and said well now might be the time because we don't have another project and we have to walk away with a successful 9% and so we pulled that one I I like to say off the M balls off the pile or whatever you want to say to apply of course they were successful that's the reason that we're here now thank you you're welcome just real quick what I know it's the North Carolina Finance Agency but what what's their their Philosophy for just one is it one per Durham or one per County or no what what it is it's theze of cities so Charlotte and Raleigh are in a different category and compete in different categories I don't.

Richard you want to say a little bit more about that this is Richard valanis our senior project manager but I would say because of the size of dorm and the way the rules are structured we compete in another category than Charlotte and Raleigh right and I think good afternoon Richard valanis our project manager of Community Development I mean Reginal is correct there the the credits are allocated to a pool we're in a particular pool with other cities and then we compete within that pool against the other cities and typically Durham Falls within where we get one tax credit award per year now potentially you can get to if if if the project allocated to Durham is small right so but there's a possibility to get a second but typically we don't get to okay so what is that what is that metric is it a city size or what what defines the category yeah I don't know yeah they do yeah Trac is going just introduce yourself hi this is Tracy s with mcor.

Far and Salazar so the the qap and the state agency does break it down by size I think they break it down between small medium and large counties and and area Metro City areas and that's how they put it into into pools so how many does Charlotte and Ry get yeah I mean we can I mean you know we can look at the latest list that came out but I think in the past I can I can remember they getting the two a piece at least two right and so but we can pull down the latest list from the agency and and give that to you guys okay yeah and I and I only ask this because I mean this is a policy it's a policy and policies can be sometimes massaged or changed or you know I mean I'm looking at I'm looking at the how fast we're growing versus other I mean we're growing faster than Greensboro sure they're probably in our category but we're growing faster we're probably.

Growing faster than Charlotte I don't know but maybe the policy needs to reflect the the the speed in which you're growing I don't that's just an example but I'm just thinking about how we could potentially convince the the agency to reconfigure their tax credit that's where we come in as policy makers absolutely and I would encourage you to to do so actually in my talking with the legislators you know this is the number one issue that I bring up is that the the fact that it's structured now of course there are as you well know some Politics on why that goes in I'll just say that why the reason that is but we agree wholeheartedly thank you council member thank you when youall get that I forgot what it was you what the list of projects that Raleigh and Charlotte get in the number of projects can you also share what other states do what Their housing financing like what their policies are so that we can see what what's the difference because I.

Know in other states it's structured differently you're not competing and there's multiple 9% and this is consistently raised as a barrier for affordable housing and and we know that the head of the housing agency lives in Durham he's a Durham resident so so that would be that would be great to to see because mayor mayor Williams point it is our job to consistently pressure thank you well finally to add to the list can we get a list of projects that are anticipating that are in the next whatever five years out projects that are anticipating 9% tax CR deals well I what what let me qualified so the answer is in part yes so we can outline the the housing authorities because they have a multi-year plan okay if we were looking at some other that we are doing we also can put that in the mul so so is an example our site at 516 rsby where we are located that is a a perfect site I want say perfect site a good site for.

Affordable housing but then we have developers and I just talked with one yesterday that's just new they're looking at submitting and so I wouldn't know at least the ones you know yeah to start there let's do that yeah I can work with the ones know thank you all so much I thought that was which. One okay all right and item number 15. Who pull this R is that you council member hey Miss rean just a quick question that this is just be should be quick so I just wanted to ask a question about this so these are these are rectangular rapid flashing beacons these are schooled in trail Crossings to make the crossing safe right that's correct and so how do these these Crossings relate I know in the CIP there was also a bunch of school Crossings and was it schools on speed reductions and Trail Crossings so how does that relate to that stuff in the CIP is that sort of similar stuff related right so it's we we're taking a.

Programmatic approach so each year we request funding in the CIP process for what we think we can deliver for a number of projects at schools and Trail crossings that we think we can deliver in the course of that fiscal year so the projects that you're seeing here are the current fiscal year workload in the CIP in the CIP so these are all funded these were funded in in the current CIP so for next year for the 25 CIP we've requested about $300,000 in funding for the next batch of these at school and Trail Crossings and so these these 17 are ALS these are also summer at schools right or are they only raail Trail Crossings no it's a mix of school and Trail both for this year and then the funding requested next year would support both school and Trail Crossings so this this is just more of these kind of like correct we have a long list of requests we prioritize them we look at schools for example that have the.

Highest percentage of students receiving free and reduced meals we look at locations that are in identified equity and egi communities that the city's prioritized we we try to focus on the projects on City owned streets we have a a more predictable approval process for installations on City owned streets we have done some on ncdot streets but that's a more complex process and my final question is so I noticed in on the CIP that these are both Trail Crossing improvements and school zone speed reductions right so to the ones here on our consent agenda these 17 rectangular rapid flashing beacons do those also Envision some speed reductions so the the goal of the the beacons is to reduce speeds to improve safety for pedestrians that what we find is that when motorists see that flashing Beacon they slow down and hopefully come to a Full Stop when there are pedestrians Crossing there and that reduces the overall speeds at those cross locations and improve safety so just the presence of the flashing Beacon.

Is has a traffic calming effect and reduces traffic speeds I guess thank you for that I guess my question also is are we envisioning like speed limit reductions in those areas so we do data collection before and after we do these installations and then we look at what the posted speed limit is and what the actual conditions are in the U designed so what we're really generally trying to do here is to bring to calm traffic bring speeds within the posted limits if there's a particularly strong traffic caling effect and we're seeing a major decrease in travel speeds we may consider at that point reducing the posted speed limit but generally we're trying to improve compliance with the existing posted speed limit good I'd urge both but thank you appreciate it okay I I just had a couple questions just in regards to I guess identifying the locations are you using crash data we are and then is it is there a level or difference of level of Crash identified in the crash.

Data so if a fire engine has to come out and put out a fire versus you know the person was traveling like high speeds and and kind of crashed and set the car on fire as opposed to like a bump is there any difference that is identified in the that crash data so we work with the Durham fire department to make sure that we're mindful of the need for emergency vehicle access so some of our primary emergency access routes some traffic calming measures like speed bumps are are going to delay response times for emergency responders and so we try to look at other Alternatives like a flashing Beacon that won't that won't delay those response times for The First Responders we've also done in the the Southside Community for example what we call speed cushions which have cutouts U that are the size of a heavyduty vehicle like a fire engine or a bus and so what we see with those is that they they generally have the the traffic calming effect of a speed.

Bump but they don't create delays or disruption for emergency vehicles or Transit Vehicles so that that's a kind of a new initiative that we've been addressing but so generally we're in the process right now as part of the vision zero program of updating our crash network data and looking at all the locations where we've seen serious injuries and fatalities across the city and then that data set as part of our vision zero action plan will provide us with much more robust data to inform decision-making about prioritization going forward thank you I I think what I'm specifically trying to key in is there's a difference in traffic calming for neighborhoods where people are just speeding and where ped pedestrians are being harmed and there's a higher level of speed occurring in neighborhoods where some of those traffic calming elements are in place which is why I appreciate you spelling out you know the speed bumps the speed cushions all of that but in order to address in order to address some of.

The the safety issues we've got to have a a larger conversation about what safety looks like for pedestrians drivers and just animal like there's there's a I feel like there's a miss and the vision zero really does highlight very clearly that this is not just the traffic crossings and accidents and it's it's increasingly becoming like I'm increasingly aware of how many more fire engines are being called to scenes for Speed induced crashes in which a car is completely crumbled on a street on a city owned street so you're driving 60 plus miles an hour on a city owned street so the speed limit reduction sounds great but there has to be a more robust look at how we address it and it's not just the devices it's also our law enforcement and in some type of way we've got to make sure that we get our hands around this yeah so the vision zero approach looks at all sorts of interventions education enforcement educ and Engineering so these are engineering these are design changes.

That we're making to the roadway but there's there's a critical role also for U education U and enforcement as well thank you go ahead just one question I know that sometimes these beacons can can are typically very helpful but but sometimes can also create a false sense of security and I think that that was highlighted with the fatal accident that that occurred on guest Road a couple years ago is that something that's taken into consideration here and going back to my Council member's questions are there going to be corresponding Investments that that you anticipate or they're at least planned for in the future of other traffic coming devices that are paired with this one so so that's certainly a concern the l Creek Crossing on guest road is a project where we're doing additional design work and we've proposed additional improvements because we think that you know a full stop signal could be a more appropriate treatment at that Crossing given especially the the volumes and the speeds that we're seeing there but.

We're trying to take a comprehensive look every time we do a resurfacing whether it's a city street as part of a public works resurfacing whether it's as part of a water line replacement where we're tearing up the street or whether it's part of NC's program and look at things like the width of the travel Lanes there's strong evidence that shows that reducing the width narrowing the travel Lanes reduces travel speeds so it sends a signal to motorists that they need to slow down and so we're looking at every opportunity with a resurfacing for a city or state road is where we can not just look at things like beacons on the side of the road but also look at the roadway layout itself and then can we incorporate more multimodal facilities so if we reduce that travel Lane maybe there's a space for a buffer bike lane for example so we're we're undertaking that work of looking at those streets as they come through the resurfacing pipeline and so over time we'll be.

Complimenting the the Wayside beacons with changes to the markings and and the layout of the roadway thank you and to keep from prol prolonging us I will be getting on your calendar I just have some Curious questions around traffic calming mechanism I just saw it on Tik Tok where you know people using plastic modules for they're installing into you're talking about the bricks I can't remember what it was but I I'll send you the Tik Tok video but it definitely cost a lot less and could be installed a lot sooner but that's just a curiosity question I'll ask later all right well I I neglected to introduce myself I'm Sean Ean I'm the director of transportation and you know where to reach me it's a pleasure to meet you thank you.

Yep all right all right we're going on into the. Presentations welcome Mr VR.

The colleagues we'll go 20 21 24 and then number 19.

There we go sorry for all that technical welcome Mr. Flora all right excit we're ready for your exciting presentation you need elevated music or anything I get it to go. Backwards there we go okay right technical issues so good afternoon mayor mayor Pro Tim council members I am Tim Flora I'm your Director of Finance I I sort of feel like I am the opening act for a pretty big budget event today and more importantly I sort of feel like I'm the warm-up act for the comp class presentation which comes after me so today we are going to talk about the general obligation Bond referendum and so if you remember we presented at the budget Retreat on March 1st some potential projects for a proposed GE General obligation bonds referendum and so since then we've had the opportunity to go back and sort of refine our numbers gather additional information and come up with a a presentation for you all of sort of what we deem as something that would be.

Very appropriate for a go referendum and part of that discussion today is to get to gauge your interest if that is what you want to do because if that is your interest then we need to jump on it pretty quickly as we would need to introduce something at the May 20th council meeting in order to get the ball rolling so so what is a general obligation Bond referendum so as we stated at the budget Retreat it is sort of the primary source of funding for many infrastructure projects so the big Capital items the're very costly projects GO bonds really are the most common funding source that we use for those types of projects particularly because those are using the least expensive debt we have because we are a triple a rated agency and so so we could you repeat that yeah yeah so so General obligation bonds are the primary source the credit rating part yes the credit rating part is we are a AAA rated credit we have.

A AAA credit rating on our general obligation bonds and so that means that we get the most the lowest interest rates on the debt we issue for that debt and so and that is because that debt is secured by the full faith and credit of of the city's taxing Authority so that is our ability to secure that debt by the ability to impose tax revenue applied towards that I will also point out that you know you cannot use operating funds for any Capital purchase and so it it really is for Capital and so if there's any Associated Capital with running or operating costs associated with that Capital that is something that would have to be addressed through an an operating budget so each referendum requires separate Bond orders and so at the presentation we made to you before we sort of gave you one big number and in this presentation after talking with our bond Council really what we do is we break it up into sort of different orders that we would.

Present to the voters and So based upon our assessment the projects we we sort of break it up into two different B orders in this situation that would be for Parks would be one bond order and the other bond order would be streets and sidewalks and so I will point out council member cook I'm so sorry one of the things I did not reference in any presentation in the staff memo or in the presentation was the General statute that applies to this it is the Local Government Bond act and it is the North Carolina General statute chapter 159 Article 4 so there are very specific guidelines and rules and laws that we use in order for this process and so everything that I'm talking about today is certainly a consistent with with with that law so what I'm what you see here these are the projects that we presented to you at the May one budget count budget Retreat Council Retreat or March one I'm sorry the March 1st Council.

Retreat and so that price tag was 610 million you'll notice that there's four categories there sidewalks and I will point out that the sidewalks in that presentation were the new sidewalks projects and then carbon neutral neutral sustainability projects the parks and then the convention. Center what we have refined into the two Bond orders is somewhat different the first is the bond order one which is the parks and Recreation Splash and pay project so that's the two projects Park projects that were presented at the at the budget Retreat the former Wheels fun park and then the other was the East End long Meadows Park the Austin Avenue Park facilities so that is a total of $85 million and then different for bond order two for the streets and sidewalk you'll see the first item there is the new sidewalk projects that's $60 million but because of the parameters that we were looking at and the scope scope of what we're trying to do as far as so one of the things for goond referendum is.

You really want to it's it's improving the quality of life for your residents and so we thought by adding not only the new projects the new sidewalk projects which is very specific areas but also we would supplement the funding that we have for the street Paving and maintenance and supplement some of the sidewalk repairs payment because it addresses you know potholes and sidewalk repairs across across the total city and so that we added that and then as well I think back in 2019 there was the unpaved roads project which we have been funding every year for I think the last couple years it's been $1.2 million I think I think at the time when that passed I think Council was looking to get all of our unpaved roads completed in a 10year time frame we thought the unpr paved roads project $10 million funding for that in this would also sort of serve well because those emplo raides are throughout throughout the city and so all this really is doing.

Is we would be moving it to this sort of funding which is sort of what I would consider the less expensive funding and then free up capacity in our regular CIP process so what I'm going to do is so this is the high overview we have I do have in the presentation sort of more specifics on each of the different projects we've talked about a lot of this is information that you've already seen at the budget Retreat I won't spend a lot of time on it but if there are specific questions about the projects I do have the departments here that that put together that information here to answer specific projects but so on a very high level though the former Wills fund Park which would include the large outdoor Aquatic Center and preserve the wheels fund indoor skatting ring which all that is is is complete but all of the park areas surrounding that project was $43 million the East End long meow pool parks that we're projecting and when I.

Say when I'm giving you these costs that is the cost of design as well as as construction so those are that's the total hopefully that is the not to exceed cost of those projects but at this point those are our best guess numbers and that would be the Central Community Plaza retain existing the athletic courts and Fields as well as a potential pool at the East End Park so those two projects are bond order one moving to bond order to the streets and sidewalks so these are the new sidewalk projects what we did is we just took 11 of the most project ready projects that were there to fund those you're looking at a you know 25 unique sidewalk quarters and gaps gaps we're looking at 12.4 miles worth of sidewalks this is an addition to additional funding that we already have we already have I think $8.6 million of federal funding that goes with that and current funding that we already have at current funding levels is is 122.4.

Million this is just a list of those projects you'll note that that I've got it capped at $60 million I think the estimated from the the department was like $62 million but those are escalation cost if those if it goes over that we certainly have other revenue streams that we could make up it but we thought the $60 million was a was a good number for that the sidewalk and repairs and the street Paving and maintenance again really the number we we have for that that is 50% of the next three years of CIP lunding that we have programmed in and so we just really are are pulling pulling that out to supplement the funding that we have really that is just really to help free up capacity for the ever increasing CIP request that we have we're getting to the point with escalation cost and our growth and the the number of projects what we currently have in our CIP it's it's hard to cover all those projects in.

Fact I think what we are still going through if I'm not mistaken it's something like we have 85 projects in the CIP list right now right now we we are looking at only being able to F fund just a partial I think about 50 50 projects of that so really with a geob bond referendum what it does is it just frees up capacity in our regular CIP process so we can we can get those funded and so this is just partial funding I just want to make sure I was clear about that this is just partial funding of of current funding that we're already doing and then here's the UN unpaved Ro project which is which is new which was not mentioned in the other again it's just a matter of this this project fit nicely into a go referendum packet in just in the fact that we are we are still shy I think we still have about 13 miles of unpaved Roads that we like we would like to get paved.

And this $10 million while it may not cover the entire cost of of getting all these roads paved it would be a bigger chunk and get us closer to obtaining that. Goal so the part I like now is the financial impact and so it does have an impact and what we're looking at doing is this would be a $200 million referendum if passed we would issue that in two tranches we we don't need all that money in one big swoop so we would split it up into over the course of the next couple years we would we would actually go out and issue the debt in in two tranches and so to do that this is just sort of the debt schedule that you would see and so the average annual Debt Service would be to the tune of $14 million a year on that that's just the average I I I think you'll see it Peaks at $20 million in one year and so that but I do want to.

Point out that this is what you're seeing here is based upon a 20year payback schedule which is which is standard level principal payments but at an interest rate of 5.34% and that is that 5.3% is only here for illustrative purposes because the general assembly changed the way reporting requirements are and so we have to report the interest rate at the highest interest rate I think of of any Geo issuance and so our rate is more like I think would be more like 3.6% interest so and that is the the the positive of having a AAA credit rating is there are some governments out there that are paying 5.34% because of our AAA credit rating we are anticipating it being at 5.34% nonetheless that is a big Debt Service impact with the average being 14.2 million and again the highest would be 20 $20.

Million this is just a revision of a chart that we showed you at the budget Retreat what it shows is in the blue is our existing Debt Service and so you can see what $31 million this year and it it it goes up next year and then starts to decline as we as we pay off that debt the yellow is The Debt Service that is anticipated for the $95 million housing Bond Geo bond that we've got we are issuing our first round of debt currently it's in process we hope to close on it in the next month or so and so there will be that Debt Service layered in and then what you see in the red would be the additional Debt Service that would result from the $200 million Bond referendum we have here that I'm talking about today so Financial impact and talking about the tax rate implications and so what this schedule sort of shows you is what is that impact on the tax rate and.

So the average tax rate if you average all of it is 2.51 1% but the immediate impact on tax rate would be 345 cents on the tax rate and that would impact in FY 26 really no way to sugarcoat that that is and again this would be at its highest because this is based upon that 5.34% interest we do anticipate fully anticipate it being lower but you are in the ballpark with with these numbers and so really how we how you see that declining because we make level principal payments so the level principal payments are not like a house mortgage where you're making a level debt payment how we work our debt over the 20 years you make a level principal payment which then means your interest rate your interest cost decrease over a period of time because you're paying more of that principle upfront but the goal in this schedule really is you're looking at that far right column to see well you don't want that column to go negative because you.

Want to make sure that we have enough Revenue to pay for our debt service and but as you as you see as you go down that second column the property tax rate you can see over time we in re in reality we could decrease that tax rate impact as we are paying down the. Debt so this is where it gets us to and I do want to sort of back up just a little bit and say saying you know there were we we pulled out the sustainability projects we pulled out the convention center that was not a value judgment on my part that really is just a matter of project Readiness and what we put together really were those projects that we could start funding sort of immediately and were most appropriate to fit what we were trying to accomplish sustainability Pro projects are not a specific project outlined by the general statute not that we couldn't do them it just it would just involve a whole lot more work as we.

Had to tie them to other projects that that were and so so again no value judgment on what how we got to the projects we got to other than the fact that those were the most appropriate for this funding strategy so now funding options and this is where we really need your input it's you know we could do the referendum as proposed or we could do it with changes we can not do a referendum that's certainly an option it will just impact how we work our CIP projects and so there may be some that might could be delayed or even not funded at all we could put the referendum in a future year that is certainly an option the only threat we run with that is just with the ever increasing escalation cost you know projects are not going to get any less expensive I mean I I I just do not see they they are going so if if we delay it you always have of the threat that next time I come.

Back these same projects it's going to be at a higher at a higher number or no referendum at all and we could continue to work through our CIP process and we could show you what that cost through the CIP process is in order to get more projects funded we we really kind of get to the same end result though is it it probably most likely would require a tax rate in and so with that we can leave it here I think my next slide really is just more what would you like how would you like us to move forward what what answers what answers to your questions can we provide where can I clarify any information all right Al it seems like the Equity the green and the sustainability have all been removed so no that would so I really was trying to just stay focused on the funding piece altogether I think there is an equity component to almost every project that we have and that has worked.

Through and one of the things that I guess I I I could have highlighted a little bit more was like for the new sidewalks and the row pavement those ranked highest in the the CIP process those were two of the top three projects that had the highest Equity score and so so everything that is in this project I think addresses any equity and many green aspects of what we're doing just I I was very just very specific to the the financing piece of it I hear that I appreciate it I think what I'm most concerned about and and it's mainly just even coming from the presentation yesterday the way that things are going right now with construction being the jobs that get created and only construction essentially what happens is the people who do the construction end up being the moved out of the community and so as folks continue to be priced out of our community and we're not I mean if we're not going to create anything that essentially creates more.

Jobs moving forward beyond the construction which is the Roose streets I mean I'd like to think that parks and Rex you know 365 days a year that would create a whole lot of jobs but I don't think so and I'm disappointed I should say and I'm look to my colleagues but yeah that's all thank. You thank you I just want to appreciate staff I think that this is a great step I think you know I think a lot of us probably got sticker shock at the budget retrieve we're like I don't think we're ready for $610 million and I didn't think y'all were promoting that I just you were trying to give us options and so I think based on conversations of what are good fiscal policies around what we do with limited obligation bonds versus whatever go bonds and Gio thank you General obligation bonds you know the my understanding is that things that are able to be put forward as collateral which is how we basically.

We did the the ball park deac the police station those were all limited limited obligation bonds which we can do internally right those are not put it in front of Voters so I think having been on the council we've had several conversations around infrastructure bonds and knowing you know our climate satisfaction survey especially around roads and sidewalks that consistently gets put as the that you know there's lots of other things in there but that the entire time I've been on Council and I think before that roads and sidewalks is always where we see some of our deepest resident dissatisfaction and so to meet that need I think it's going to take something like this and probably as we've discuss several rounds of this so I am supportive if you're looking for a thumbs up to move us forward I you know eager to hear from other colleagues but I definitely my thumb is up and then with the park side I think that those those parks are transformative for.

Our community all three of those Parks will be in in areas that have historically not been invested in at the same level we've heard from a lot of community members around pools specifically for many many years is actually a Public Health crisis we have a very high percentage of of children who drown in our community because we don't have enough public pools so I think that that plays out in many many ways we can have long conversations about why we have those numbers in in Durham around Public public pools specifically so I think it does actually address the equity question because these are publicly held places unlike many of our other features that we have done limited obligation bonds are you you have to pay to go see the baseball game you have to pay to go see a show at DPAC you don't have to go you're not going to have to pay to use the pool I mean you're going to have a much lower cost to that you're going to.

Have a much lower cost to a lot of the amenities in the park and that's something that I think is really really important so I I am supporting this thank you council member cook that was council member cabier actually touched on one of my questions which are I of course there's going to be continued costs after this 80 I'm looking specifically at The Parks and Recreation one after the 85 million originally are we going to have what are we looking already at like would there be costs associated with using the those recreational spaces and and what would that look like yeah there would there would be programming cost certainly with any new park and those those types of facilities and so those would just you know those discussions have been you know just with the department and and the budget department and so there would be those operating cost and so those are being built in those forecast but it but it would be absorbed through the the operating budget process in future.

Any of that get passed on like is there going to be a charge for accessing those spaces for community members I'm assuming we don't have so I I can answer that very briefly in you know in public park and recreation there's certainly many service that are free or open and there are some that do have fees as whenever we have a fee on anything it comes to the D the Durham City Council in a fee ordinance so all of our Parks and Recreation fees are are really set and approved by by the by the council and I would just also add that because we do have an interest in making sure there's access we have basically sliding fee scales for much of the activity that goes on in Park and Recreation but I know that as a new council member you probably have not actually seen a fee ordinance so the fee ordinance that we have in place is one that was approved by the council the.

Last time but it is it is something that is a public you know decision and so that would automatically get it we would definitely have a fewe ordinance for these in their Contin operating any anytime we have new you know new facilities or a new type of program that would cause a fee to you know be added we would have to update our fee ordinances to ensure G giving us the authority to charge fees so that that is one portion of it what we typically do when we are building or investing in assets we are estimating future cost for operations and that is built those cost costs are built into our our annual operating budget so the staff the full-time staff the part-time staff our our lifeguards you know every every managers of facilities everything that would be needed you don't see it here but it would be applicable in the years that any of those assets were coming on online perfect thank you so and then I have just one more very brief.

Question well two council member rist actually raised this in our March 1 meeting and and I'm just now that he's put it in my head it's it's in my head when I'm looking at the designs which is that like it looks like a third to almost a half of the space is being used for parking have yall discussed potentially consolidating that into a garage stack situation.

Sure I. Think as far as the renderings of the park the park lot that that is just a rendering.

Okay I mean I know they are rendering but I also remember you talking specifically about how there was tons of feedback on like having a deep pool for example for older kids to play basketball and these things that I know are getting Incorporated so those things are going to stay I'm assuming but there's going to be room for for other modifications outside of those. Ones okay great all right. Totally right right of course and I heard you say that design is part of the fee so I understand that the design part is Yet to Come okay and then I just just for funsies will you one more time tell us how expensive it is to build a mile of sidewalk might be a did he leave already oh no here he is just just one more time just for just for all of us to hear it Sean Ean from transportation again so we see a range of costs and some of the costs that are in this presentation have increased about 15 to.

20% as part of an additional review that we did right now we need we have the the internal staff resources to deliver the current level of sidewalk projects so for us to do additional property acquisition and for us to do additional project management on top of our existing City staff we would need those costs to be included in the cost of the project so the revised estimates are higher than what you saw in on March 1st because they include the estimated cost for contracted services for property acquisition and contracted services for project management to deliver these projects so if you do the math on it it's up to $9 million per mile for the 12 miles that you see here some of that is because of the scale of the projects some of these are very small gaps like the NC 54 is 310 of a mile but it's over a million dollars so the larger the more we can address economies of scale we're going to see.

Better cost per mile but we also are mindful of the impact that gaps in our Network have and we want to have a fully connected Network and that nc-54 project for example that small wedge at a cost per mile is very high but it gives us a complete and connected sidewalk Network thank you thank you so much I think those are all my questions that I'm just going to Echo my council member who's just spoken the both of these projects have my full support I'm up here talking a lot about affordable housing yall know that I work in that all the time but I do think that there is more to living in Durham than just surviving and I want to make sure that we are also creating a Durham where people can Thrive and have Leisure Time and and enjoy their space we have just moved up in our gardening zone for how hot it is global warming is not a question it is hot out here and we really really.

Need public spaces where people can enjoy water and learn these really really important skills such as swimming council member Caba spoke to it but though I'm sitting here talking about it as a Leisure activity it really is a survival need as well we have many many many many more kids of color dying in swimming and drowning accidents than percentage across the city so there there have to be opportunities for folks to learn how to interact and be around water particularly as the climate continues to rise and also we know the recreation spaces are vital for the community so I am fully on board with that one and I'm also going to Echo those sentiments before even I've been on Council for 3 months I've gotten so many emails about sidewalks and that is totally valid because we deserve also to have a place where people can walk down the street safely access our awesome bus system and all of these different things so my full support on both of these projects and thank you all.

So much thank you for those comments I totally agree I graduating from nccu it was a requirement to learn how to swim and that what motivated me to get my instructor's license so who knows I might teach a class this summer that'll be fun any other comments council member thanks Mr Mayor and thanks council member cook for those comments appreciate that I had two money questions and two sort of Street software questions so the on the money question so I understand how that you base the calculations on debt calculated at 5.34% that's what you have to do I guess by Statute whatever but I'm sure you'd probably model this at some point for if we assuming we have lower debt costs based on our Tri Bond rating how does that change that I think you said the average rate over the Deb term was like 2.5 I think you would see like the the the the high range that 20 the Peak at $20 million of Debt Service I think that if I remember correctly.

It comes down to like maybe more like 16 or 17 million do and so there's there's a considerable difference between the two if we if we get a lower yeah and I'm just I'm showing that one Peak here I could I'm more than happy to to share the information I don't it you know at my fingertips but it is it is less interest cost and some Curious screen here if you did calculate the the average rate over the Deb term how does because you you showed them $251 over the the term right how does it change that average cost so it I don't know exactly but it would it would probably more like closer to two not 2.5 cents yeah appreciate that second question is we we've talked a we've been talking a lot we talked a lot about over time how cost increase right we just had this comp about housing stuff so so what's the process either you were at the department level for budgeting because I know we got the.

First trunch coming in one couple years another trunch a couple years after that so obviously this over time we're doing all this work so what's the process been for estimating cost increase over time is it simply like a estimating inflation or like how do you how do you calculate that so so that we don't come back four years from now and say like oh my gosh we don't have enough money because we wanted to do this but the costs have gone up so how do we how can we be assured that you're modeling to make sure cost increases are built into this whole month so for like the new sidewalk projects we built in those numbers you'll notice they noticeable increase from when we met in March to today we built in those escalation prices into that model hoping assuming that we can get these done in you know a a a two to four or five year time period And so so we estimated on the higher end the parks.

I'm not sure if you noticed it was $75 million in at The Retreat we're now at $85 million so we are factoring in a lot of that and I mean that's a pretty I'm pretty sure last year when we got the presentation initially from Perks re it was like 55 million so right so so I I I believe it's it's a combination of our adding a a factor on there working with the Consultants say hey what what is what do we think this is going to be you know right now we're even it for the the two parks why you have the the concept renderings you don't actually have the the designs the actual design and or the bidding of the project and so you know there may have to be some value engineering that goes along so it's hopeful that in this process that what we are presenting today is the upper end to cover all of those cost I appreciate that it's better it's better to know on the front end to be.

You know clear about that then sort of later get sticker shot because it's going up so I appreciate your work on that so two questions about or maybe kind of one just larger question about the about the unpaved roads and the the supplemental Street Paving so I noticed under the unpa roads they were just talking about the roads there's no other there's no sidewalks there's no other improvements I'd love to see it's because we talk a lot about well we have these roads and like we gota now we got to try to build sidewalks because we you know so is there not a way that we can build in or what it look like to build in sidewalks as well so we're not in the same place again five years from now oh we need sidewalks we got to do additional and like right away so so can we do that I I know there's a cost right so there was a cost associated with that but that.

I think there wasn't if I'm not mistaken and a city manager page could probably help me with that there was a study that was done and I think the original intent was just at that time was just to pave the roads not to provide any of the curbs and in that addition I certainly anything and everything can be done it all just comes at a cost and this was I think the most cost effective way to at least get them paved that that was like when you presented it was like19 billion dollars or something someone may presented that it was not me yeah it was it was yeah that that was we have enough Street on roads to go from Durham to Dallas I remember.

That answer question back in 201. Sorry the direction was that we would go forward as a department and just pave all the roads no other Improvement if the desire is to now change that it was switch from just a Paving project to actual full road construction project which is going to be substantially more than what we gave to finance as far as estimates and that would really vary depending on each Street depending on how much rideway we have utilities that would need to be addressed Drive ways drainage it's a much different type project with a much higher cost yeah yeah no I understand it just feels like you know it's sort of we're just kicking that can down the road then so you know in the future we're like hey we don't have sidewalks you need to build sidewalks so I so I again I understand there's limited costs but but I just want to raise that question I'm yeah so that's one the other question I want to raise was there's been a lot.

Of talk about like what our standards are for building roads right and this is I guess this is in the Udo is that where that is it's in the ud but it's also within our reference guide for development within Public Works and we work with the transportation department as well with de developing those standards for road new road construction so and what were the what would the like what are the standards what would those be for the new road construction is that well it depends on if it's a residential or commercial so it somewhat varies depending on what type of development is happening around the new road so I'm not sure I'm understanding your specific question as far as yeah and I'm kind of fumbling with this but I know that we like we just talked earlier about you know Narrow Lane width means like traffic calming right so like what are we building wider roads are we building roads that are G be more traffic calming what are the I guess the question is.

What are I mean I guess you said the standards we have but I'm just want to make sure that what we're building is building for the future not sort of you know yeah so I mean with a typical residential street you'll have roughly 12 foot wide Lanes you may have a two to four foot wide shoulder in addition and sidewalk that's built anywhere from five feet to I think in some cases now we're going with 10 foot wide multi-use pathways so you can actually narrow that road just with some of the traffic calming measures that Transportation has that's pavement marking striping different things like that doesn't necessarily mean changing the width of the roadway itself but just Chang the configuration yes yes that's I guess I'm was hoping we bu have that complete Street sort of notion they we utilizing that as we're building these New Roads that's I guess my yes request yeah yes we do well again I think this is exciting stuff I appreciate the work staff has done and.

And look forward to this I'll be supporting this thank you mayor proon thank you Mr May thank you for all the work staff so that was here in 2019 I remember discussion I I I was a council member who said that you know there there are cities in this country where you can literally go across the tracks and see the historic vestages of of disinvestment so a lot of the conversation about Paving the roads was about equity and and one of the things I remember saying was that you know one of the thresholds that in order to be truly considered a great Metropolis you have to cross two of the thresholds one is you have to be accessible without a car and two in a city every road should be paved at some point so so that was part of the impetus of of of that discussion kind of bringing us up to in light of historic inequities to at least a baseline some of these areas where where these roads are they will be.

Just roads you know folk were having problem traversing them with their cars so so I'm glad to see this in this project with that said I I do I want to do a little commercial about our AAA Bond rating because some people think we're too protective of it or kind of poo poo on that AAA Bond rating but but the the financial health of the city and strength of the city is the reason why we're in a position to do some of the other things we do without having to raise taxes whether it's expanding heart or guaranteed income you know and to demystify our job I always invite people you know to to just think about how you run your own household think about what a good credit rating allows you to do for your own family how it allows you to project your income beyond what it currently is when you have a good job history and a credit rating so so it's the same thing for the city think of the.

City as your house the same rules that apply for your credit score apply for ours as well and allows us a lot more agility and power to do things so I'm not debt averse but when we talk about floating debt as a city the checklist we go through for example we talk about some of these projects being expedited one of the questions I had is how expedited how many years are we moving forward on certain things as a relative to what we would get just going to straight CIP and how do we value those increased years you know if it's two years ahead of schedule or 12 years ahead of schedule and how do we value that so those are some of the questions that inform my decision on this which I am supporting by the way I do want to some of the framing and and funding options where it says no referendum will have impact on multiple CIP project projects that will either be delayed or.

Not funded I I'm I'm I'm struggle I'm struggling a little bit with the framing because in so far as the CIP is aspirational and strategic you know there's always the opportunity for you know delay or not being funded that's the case because it kind of reads like we knew we were gonna do this Bond and we and we have to pass it it it's almost framed like you know before we had this Bond discussion we didn't know we were gonna have the bond discussion but we still had a CIP so I don't want to create for for listeners and for our residents that you know this is aeta comp playay that if we don't do it you know it's like a bad decision you know when we talk about project delays and escalation costs associated with Rising labor and material cost that is never not true as a matter of fact we have Rising costs every year in the city because we give our folk raises every year on our step plan as the city.

Grows we're going to have to buy more fire in we're going to have to hire more folks so rising cost is is always a case whether we do a bond or not that's just the reality of of the if you're growing now we wouldn't have these problems if we weren't a growing city and we said we don't need any more sidewalks because we won't have any more people moving here if we were stagnant so I I don't want to create the impression you're not doing this I'm just saying for those watching this listening to this discussion that this Bond somehow will will inoculate us or address things that are always the case anyway whether we're gonna do a bond or not and those are decisions we have you know we have to make sometimes when you look at your debt situation perhaps adding a penny or whatever half cent to the CIP which I think we eled to do with the sustainability and the the Equitable fund as opposed to a bond.

At that time relative to the whole picture sometimes might be the best way to go even taking into account in costs which are always Rising that's built into the picture so I say that to say that the the the the money the floating of debt in this in these particular instances I think is is worthwhile but I I don't want to suggest to folk that we have to do this or else because of these situations which are always the situations we're going to have higher costs not only in in with relative to this but our operational cost literally go up each year because of personnel and things so we're always dealing with Rising costs unless we're not growing so that the cure for that is just shut Durham down or say no more people can come and we're not going to do that so I'm excited about the project you know as I said I I have a Sentimental connection to Paving all of our roads I do I'm glad council member Freeman brought up.

The equity issue and I know that that's a lens that we're applying you know I don't want to see expedited projects exped ided delivery on projects that haven't been vetted through our Equity landens because historically that's been the problem things have been expedited in certain neighborhoods and not in other neighborhoods so thank you for all the work I other than you know addressing that framing thing and the importance of protecting our AAA Bond rating anytime we float debt we have to think about that capacity where we will not be able to use that in other areas but I think these projects meet the test of of being worth while floating debt and yeah thank you so much thank you Mr Mayor thank you colleagues for your great comments thank you that's member Baker thank you got a question looking at the sidewalk projects some of them have Federal funding attached to them I'm just wondering if we were to not fund them would we lose that Federal funding in in for.

Those specific projects or would that or would that funding be reallocated I will let director Egan address that. One so we're under very significant scrutiny through the Durham Chapel Hill carboro Mo process which is where we've gotten the awards of federal funding that you see for the sidewalks we've had recent meetings council members rist and ciero have been there where their colleagues are asking why is the city holding on to this funding for projects that the city is not Del in and there are timelines associated with delivery of these projects and the longer that we wait without delivering the projects the greater that risk is that the mo can invoke those deadlines and recall that Federal funding so the the longer we wait the greater that risk is that we could lose that Federal funding it's good to know and and some of these projects are in ncdot right of way as well did we go to NCD and say this is your right of way you need to build us a sidewalk.

We work in Partnership with ncdot ncdot has a an approach what they call betterments so if we want to improve make better u a state roadway they look to the local government the municipal government to sponsor the cost of a betterment there's been there's some discussion about a complete streets policy and but we so far our experience has been that where we where we request betterments whether that's a sidewalk or other Improvement to the roadway U they look to the municipality to to cover that cost okay one one last question as far as our investment would there is there any additional potential matching are there any potential matching grants out there that would give us more bang for the buck here so we are applying for some funding through the the dccm process but that's for Trails projects so the projects that you see here in the bond are not projects where that was requested there are always competitive opport unities but we have many needs and so we have a priority framework for those.

Competitive opportunities one of the the biggest opportunities that we have ahead of us is the federal Safe Streets for all program so they have a billion dollars available each year through the bipartisan infrastructure law right now we are not qualified to apply for that Capital funding through that project we need to make some changes to our vision Zer policy and we need to have a vision zero Action Plan before we would be an eligible applicant for that funding so we are working diligently to bring forward those updates so that when that cycle opens up again next year that we can be U an eligible applicant and we're currently ineligible okay we think we can make those updates in time for for next year yeah very soon okay thank you I it's it's always we always want to do things especially things that we need to do like constructing sidewalks Paving roads and building Parks because they're all necessary and they have a a cost high cost associated with them.

I am also supportive of of this path that's being presented to us and and putting it in front of the voters so that they can make a decision and I I think I think it's important stuff important infrastructure for for us to be investing in I also appreciate the points that were raised by other council members about complete streets and and when we pave when we build new streets and pave streets and construct sidewalks that it is part of a complete crosssection that that moves multiple different users as as safely as possible and in accordance with with best practices and also I'll just say you know I I think this this shows and council member cook brought up the the cost of sidewalk just how important it is to capture incrementally when there is development capture that that infrastructure at the time of development or reconstruction because that that's an important part of being being efficient with with our resources so appreciate the work that's gone into this and I will give.

Things back to the mayor here. If I could just add I just want to say that I appreciate some of the comments of my colleagues I do want to point out that I think it was myself and council member cabier who were trying to push for that Vision zero coordinator for a number of years to make sure that we were ahead and it's hard hard hearing that we're now behind on that and I do want to say that I I wholeheartedly believe that we should do a referendum I do want to make sure that it's the best referendum for the people considering the amount of money we're talking about and I do think that it's important to figure out whether or not the complete streets can be factored into those pave roads I do think that we're wherever there's opportunity as well we've got to figure out how to make sure that our mwbe resources are in place and these are the type of things these are the conversations that I like to see and.

When I don't don't see them in the presentation it makes me worry that the staff is not talking about it or engaged in some work behind the scenes that will make sure that that comes to the Forefront I am not I'm not going to say I'm supportive but I will say that I'm I'm okay I think with the hous and bond I had the same issues because there's things that we can do that actually make things better for more people in our community than than just contractors who come in from other States and other cities to cover what we need and so I just want to make sure that we're not losing that piece of this in the equity conversation just knowing like are there are plenty of women-owned and minority owned businesses who could be involved in this conversation but if they're not even a thought in our conversation as we talk about a bond for 85 million or 110 or $116 million then I think it gets lost and so I don't.

Want to lose that and that's all thank you thank you I and just really quick I I know that these are projects that we're going to be delivering if it goes through so I I I to your concern council member Freeman I I would hope that the office on Equity is included with it considering that it will have to go through it's like we're not Outsourcing it so we well some of it yeah but it'll have our standards well I think it's important to note that there have been contracts that have come forward that said they couldn't find or they they did meet and so if we're not actively pursuing it it kind of gets to the end and we're like oh we can't do it and gotcha that's all no day Mr May if I might say okay thank you I I I do want to this this particular discussion I do want to say in in kind the defense of the staff that the the equity lens in terms of the.

Ranking of our projects is now part of our culture and and that's reflected in the listing of these the contract I agree with council member Freeman we we need to maintain vigilance at the contractual stage when we're bringing in vendors but this what is before us now is reflective of a of a culture of equity and the staff does a great job in doing that I just want to celebrate them on that thank you Mr Mar I would Echo that as well I think the staff does a great job and I think it's really helpful to make sure that we keep saying it as well that's a beautiful moment go we need on a shirt I just had a couple more questions one is around like the tax increase because with the affordable housing Bond you know essentially we're putting in front of the voters you get these things if you say yes and yes means your taxes are going up so the affordable housing Bond we delayed it because of the of the.

Pandemic and it was also just there wasn't the pressure is there if if folks are seeing shifts partly around interest rates right if if folks are seeing shifts on the finance side like hey we think they're going to come down will they be back to back to council like there was with the affordable housing Bond where it may not be to our benefit you know if we hold out for one more year whenever we decide because of of what's happening with broader economic so I I would say my response to that is we don't try to really time the market but there are other opportunities so once we issue debt there's always the option in the future to refund that debt and get for go for go for if the tax rates go down we refund it and then we we generate savings on on the yes okay okay thank you that's what I want to make sure I want because we all know that part of this is is how we Market.

This in in a couple months and then that's to my second point and this is really for our stakeholder Community the process is Staff gets us the projects they do the the the legal and Technical pieces then it is up to other folks not staff to promote staff cannot promote it so this is for our stake we can promote it as elected officials we can we can do it I just want to say for the affordable housing Bond former mayor SCH there there were yard signs and and C strategies and all kinds of things and so this is a this is a call out to our stakeholder communities who've come to us for many years that it's going to have to be a lift outside of City staff to get approval in front of the voters in November 24 so I am going ahead and stating that really loud and clear because I think sometimes people forget that part when when they come we want a bond well staff can get you so.

Far but then if people want it there has to be a different strategy in front of Voters thank you all right thank you this this is exciting and and I I'll I'll start with I'm glad to see that the convention center is not on there because what was presented to us was without consideration of all of the public the private interest in supporting us on so I personally wanted to put the need out there to make it very clear that every data point shows how badly we need a new convention center but we just aren't ready for it yet and I I prefer waiting until we get more support to make sure this is a public private partnership and then we'll take you know the appropriate steps at the appropriate time I I think many folks know how competitive I am that's why I kept asking about the Triple A credit rating but in all seriousness you know tragically you know you saw just what happened in Baltimore the city of.

Baltimore has a a a double a credit rating and it's making it much more difficult in their rebuilding of the Key Bridge you know it's going to cost the residents in the state more of course the state is helping them out with that but just that's just one example that you know how it pays off that we are in this situation also there are only 30 cities I believe about 30 something cities out of 30,000 cities and towns Across the Nation they have a AAA credit Bond rating that's identified by all three of the issuing agencies and German's proudly one of those so we we are in the best shape that we possibly can be once we let's say this is passed in November if we you know put it on the ballot and it's actually passed are the once it's set and I'm glad that you just answered council member C Cabo's question around you know tax rate changes changes of being able to refund I was interested in that but are there.

Any other impacting factors that could deter that could impact the actual calendar of the payoff like or do we just set it and just follow it no matter the population change or rates are you talking specific to the tax rate or so let's say we we do 200 million our tax Bas expands I don't know if these are related but our our tax base expands we in some perfect world we covering our CIP and projects and and more are we able to adjust yes yeah I mean it's it's I don't want I don't want to say the word fluid but it is sort of fluid and as we grow our if our resources expand our tax base expands yes we're able to make those adjustments okay that's good but through a as information that we would provide to the public We There are some ballot requirements for transparency and so we would have to follow those transparency requirements in Pro in informing the public from a staff perspective as to.

What that is but the reality is is yes as we grow tax base grows we make adjustments BAS Bas upon on the forecast gotcha and current conditions I I I'll just say quickly to Reas why I'm supportive you know it one is just the comfort and quality of life there is one store that a retail store major retail store that I go I can go to and I used this analogy before but you get the carts and they're all you know bumpy they're loose they're this the lights in the store just the dim fluorescent lights and it's just it doesn't feel good to be in there but you go in there because it's it's a retail store that has a little bit of everything then there's another retail store that's similar to it and the the lighting is bright the carts the suspension on the carts that you're pushing it's just so much smoother you go in the restroom and has big mirrors and it's like you want to look in the.

Mirror oh I look nice today it's just a different quality experience I look at our streets the same you know when I'm in York you better be careful Middleton when you're you're driving in New York and the amount of money you're going to spend and getting your car realigned or tires replaced but you know you know buses and train it's just you know but imagine if our streets were were actually smooth the ride on you know it just makes you want to be here imagine if you could just park your car and just walk everywhere you wanted to go you know it makes you want to be here and so I I just I think about it in that that instance and the other I just look at the economic benefit of parks and I keep going back to you know I'm finding myself calling Raleigh to Park City because I keep doing parking Bond Park bonds every other year you know and and they're out doing us on.

Parks I give that up all right but not for long I think this is a really good start and I also know that just through our CIP process it takes forever to get anything done and this is an opportunity for us to really invest in an area of our city that is desperately needed I also know that when you invest in Parks what comes with that is you know just you know a more building a community that's friendlier to our climate you know we're GNA have trees out there we're g to plant more trees you know we're going to it's going to bring housing it's going to bring investment it's going to bring businesses around it people going to want want to be around it and I hope that we can focus more on revitalizing communities rather than just replacing communities which would be displacement to folks that are there so we have a chance to get so many things right with this and I look forward to being a a big cherleader on.

This as as we move forward so I I'm excited about it and and it's I can't wait to see kids out playing in the pool and learning how to swim having just another pool that we can get access to and where looking at have this one we we don't have anything over there so this is this is exciting I'll be supporting it great well thank you I think I have clear Direction and I believe you'll be seeing an agenda memo on this in in an upcoming cycle just one additional question if it if it is at all possible I was just noting that there was about 19 miles of unpaved Roads if it was possible to see a price tag on that or complete streets that would be helpful okay that was 13.2 miles yeah I think 19 was the original I think it's 13.3 13.3 left to pave and then I think we've got two and a half miles that are on the yeah there's two and a.

Half miles that are I think scheduled programmed for this summer to be taken care of and so so the number is already shrinking but you want the balance of what it would cost to finish it yes 13.3 okay yep and and I I'm not pitching any specific company but we do have a company right here in Durham that they they actually make concrete that is eco-friendly and it's much it's much friendlier to our environment so I I hope that companies that will be taking on these contracts can consider that building utilizing biofriendly U or eco-friendly concrete all right can I get just an official thumbs up for direction if you are in favor of so giving the step Direction all right we have six and a half all right all right thank.

You number 21 right yeah number 21 thanks Tim.

And just real quick colleagues are you all okay do you need take a break or anything this is going to be a pretty lengthy one are we okay to keep going all right you need just yeah just step out if you need to welcome thank.

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All right colleagues are we ready all right and mayor's back well let's begin great thank you very much good afternoon Mr Mayor mayor protm members of council I'm Jim Ron Gruber assistant director of the human resources department Department our director Robin wi is unable to be here today so I have the pleasure of kicking off this presentation on the classification and compensation study which of course nobody is really interested in but we're going to talk about it anyway we do have other members of our staff here today althia Hardy's driving the presentation Sophia clanka is oh she'll be back in a moment she's gonna be taking notes they're both the classification and compensation team and then we have our newest member of the staff here today montique McClary who is our newest assistant director in HR so after I kick things off with some background I'll be handing the presentation over to Annette haer from logic compensation group and she's going to be talking about the study methodology the findings the proposed.

Adjustments to the pce structures and then I'm going to come back and wrap up the presentation talking about the proposed implementation cost and the results ing benefits to city employees there are I'll note there are a lot of charts and numbers in this presentation we're going to move through it relatively quickly but we'll pause for a few moments on the slides with the more dense information but feel free to slow me down or slow us down if if necessary so I'm going to start by reminding everyone why this study was undertaken in the first place and of course classification and compensation are critical components not only in recruiting employees but also retaining and engaging employees so we want to make sure that we're we're doing that taking care of the folks that that do serve the residents of the city of Durham through employee feedback we found a few things for some classifications were so broad that some of the employees had trouble seeing themselves in the classification.

Structure so we looked at that or the the consultant looked at that also some of the work has changed so the last full study that we did at least on the step plan and open plans were pre-co so of course quite a bit has changed since then we had directors who also put forth some reclassification requests to be evaluated as part of this process and on the compensation side in a nutshell employees were feeling like their salaries were not keeping up with the market next slide so the city contracted with logic compensation group to conduct a study to begin to analyze and address some of the issues listed on the previous slide and again listed as primary objectives on this slide so 109 Benchmark positions were chosen to represent the 240 different classifications U which Encompass roughly 2,800 authorized FTE within the city next slide so roughly reviewing the timeline this process began last July when we issued the RFP the study was underway by October when employees were engaged in.

Focus groups and the strategy was finalized at that time data collection was then completed in November and Analysis and data verification ran through February so during this phase we presented that update to council at the budget Retreat with some preliminary budget estimates at that time the classification phase was then undertaken and proposed pay structures were developed and so anette's going to talk about that so I'm going to pass it off to Anette haer from logic who will discuss the. Study thank you Jim good afternoon Council we're going to discuss preliminary outcomes of the classification phase as well as proposed pay structures while the classification phase was conducted after the compensation phase we are discussing it first to provide an understanding of the city's classification system and how it coordinates with Market pay to update the pay structures the next few slides will provide some background on classification this graphic demonstrates the pay grade leveling currently found in the city the current 22 paygrades Encompass all step and open range classifications from entry-level.

Classific ations found at in the aay grades up to the deputy city manager classification found in the e92 grade there is a document titled classification structure that has been included in your agenda packet that shows each City classification and its Associated payg grade this pay grade leveling is important to keep in mind as we discuss how the city's pay ranges were updated so in this slide we illustrate an example of a current classification structure currently found in the city in this case we are focusing on the maintenance and operations class structure as identified by the purple call out this class structure can also be called a job family and these terms are used inter interchangeably in certain classification structures like maintenance and operations a series of classifications are found within the overall structure because they are related by the type of work and in this case labor trades work the red bubble shows that we have three series currently maintenance and operations Fleet Maintenance and trades you will see classification.

Titles within the structure and series the pay grade of the classification which is in indicator of that class placement within that pay leveling structure and finally the min minimum and maximum of the pay range for that class and this is the information that was reviewed during the classification phase of the. Study so the review process involved classifications identified by HR employees departments and logic compensation group and included those classifications that may have changed since the previous study position description question questionnaire documents describing employees work were submitted by employees and were utilized during this review recommendations for change or update were based on business needs and therefore review could have resulted in no change new or modified classifications or classification structures Andor the update of an Associated pay.

Range so the is still in the process of evaluating the proposed classification changes and at this point we are proposing changes to or the development of the classification structures listed here and once again any of these changes could involve the the results that we just talked about at this point we anticipate an increase from about 240 classifications to 270 classifications and let me just give you a few examples of some of the updates so three levels of the emergency communications text and specialist are reassigned to a higher pay grade to better reflect the work that they do another example where we had broad classes we broke out the economic excuse me community and economic development job family into three new class families and for instance in the maintenance and operations job family we saw three series we're now going to be seeing four series with solid waste broken out into its own series as an example of where we may have added a new classification that example would include the senior engineering survey.

And locating technician level was added and it was added because of the lead worker role that that job plays let's move into our discussion of the class excuse me the compensation phase and the the proposed updated structures please keep in mind as we discuss compensation that classification is also an essential part of the update of the city's pay structures as we discussed at the budget Retreat we conducted a survey of 109 Benchmark jobs for the city and we had an outstanding participation rate of 94% and here you'll find that listing of public sector organizations that responded we also included private sector data in our review of the market by using published survey sources that we have used over the course of many years and that we find are credible and valid and these are the sources of data that was used to update the city's pay.

Structure you also saw this information presented during the budget Retreat meeting and this table outlines how the city compares to the market for each City pay structure so let's take the general step structure first as an example the city's step four which is known as the pay Target or market rate within the pay range is used to compare to the Market's 60th percentile of actual salaries which is the city's pay structure excuse me pay strategy for the step structure Ure all survey classifications that are included in that step pay structure were compared to the market in this way and as a result the pay structure overall was determined to be below the market by 99.6% I'd like to emphasize here that the 60th percentile is a better than average pay philosophy most public sector organizations have a philosophy of paying at the median or 50th percentile or the average of the market therefore Durham has chosen to set a higher standard for employee pay as you will see by looking at the.

Market comparison column this 60th percentile philosophy is applied to all pay structures however each with their own pay Target a similar analysis was conducted for the open ranges however the market data was compared to the pay range midpoint and in this case the city was below the market by 6.1% for both police and fire the 60th percentile of the market pay range minimums were compared to Durham's pay range minimums to determine the market position overall the police structure was behind the market by 17.6% on average and the fire structure was 7 8% behind the market on.

Average so let's talk how the step and open pay ranges that you'll see in a few moments were updated first of all we use a statistical model called regression that provides a payline that is the best fit of both Market data and internal Equity as defined by the pay grade or each classification in the case of Durham's pay modeling or regression modeling the correlation of this data was very high indicating a very good fit of the data and the resulting pay lines we rarely see a correlation this high so it was exciting to see then using the market data represented by the 60th percentile of the market actual salaries as either step four in the step system or the midpoint in the open range system a payline was produced and this payline indicates what step four will be for the step structure or what the midpoint will be for the Open Range structure and from that point and based on other parameters that we will soon discuss new steps new pay range minimums.

And maximums were calculated for the pay grades okay so let's first talk about the step ranges that include most of the non-exempt or hourly classifications the parameters were used to update the pay structure include that regression model that we just discussed was used to establish that step four of the updated pay ranges again which corresponds to that 60% tile of actual salaries the proposed structure will include steps of 5% which are increased from 4% and this change aligns all step increases for All City Pay structures that have steps because of the increase from four to 5% the width of each pay range from the minimum to the maximum has increased from 54% to 71% so they're wider so this increase results in Greater pay growth potential for employees in those steps structured and finally Durham's livable minimum wage will be the first step of the city's lowest pay range at 1958 per hour the next two slides will show the current step pay structure and the proposed structure.

Since I'm in a new part of the country new Allergies have flared up in the last day the current pay structure is a 12-step pay structure consisting of 4% movement from step to step is based on meeting job expectations as it will within the proposed structure so in the current pay plan the city hires at step two of the lowest pay grade to comply with DM's current current minimum livable. Wage this is the proposed structure so it maintains the same number of steps as the current structure however the difference between steps has increased from four to 5% and the proposed step structure includes that 1958 per hour livable minimum wage as step one for the a12 pay grade if you like we can briefly pause here to allow you some time to.

Review you like me to move on okay let's turn our attention to the Open Range.

Structure ref froze okay so the Open Range Pace structure includes mostly exempt or salaried City classifications in these C D and E Pay ranges and once again the pay ranges are based on that regression model of the market data and pay ranges in this case the midpoint is established at the 60th percentile of Market actual salaries the width of the proposed pay ranges from minimum to maximum will remain the same as the current pay structure from 55 to 60% okay so we were able to get both the current and the proposed open pay ranges on the same slide and we can also pause here a second to let you look at.

This and moving on let's talk about the police the police Pace structure includes sworn jobs from police recruits to police captain and Beyond this executive police jobs are found in the open pay range the parameters are a bit different from the step and open pay ranges in that these pay ranges are based on the market minimum and maximum for each rank so we establish each ranks pay range minimum at the 60 percentile of the Market's pay range minimum and the current 5% differences between step will also remain in the proposed structure and one additional step was added for police officers to bring the proposed range maximum to the market maximum so and moving on thank you and so here we find the city's current pay structure for police note that there are nine steps for police.

Officer next slide please and then on this slide we are showing the proposed police pay structure with that additional step added at step 10 for police.

Officer next slide please so the fire proposed ranges are based on the same parameters as those of the police however two steps were added to the Joint fire driver senior firefighter and fire inspector rank which is pay grade F3 because of the higher Market maximum data so here we show the current pay structure note F3 has nine steps and here we show the proposed fire pay ranges including the additional two steps at F3 for the fire driver senior firefighter and fire inspector.

Rank and finally I would like to thank Durham's outstanding HR and leadership team for their partnership during the study and also to those employees that participated in the employee focus groups and those employees that completed pdq's on their jobs we really do appreciate all the time and effort that was spent in getting us to this point and before I pass the presentation to Jim who will discuss proposed B budget implications and cost strategies are there any questions I can answer for the.

Group well just real quick is that so the rest of your presentation will it be continuing on the the information we just saw it's going deeper into it okay yes did I should I wait I'm I'm sorry it's it's going more into it or is this we have this the procedure and then y'all are going to show us the Jim's going to talk about the the budget imple implementation and costing strategies okay so I have questions about the studies so now is the right time yes okay great yes you're from the Midwest you have really come in the middle of the pollinating welcome to the southeast in springtime I have so many questions I'm just going to go by group I guess by classification I I guess my confusion is about the comparisons what we chose on our plan to compare and then we compared it against the 60th percentile actual actual 60th percentile of other of the market correct but we did not compare the 60th percentile of any of our plans against.

Or the 50th percentile so I'm going to go by one and just ask you one by one so for the step plan we took step four that is our nominal average step that's the market rate in that pay range so that is pegged to that 60th percentile of the market actual salaries then we build out the steps below and build out the steps to the maximum based on the parameters we talked about okay and that step four came as a result of the last study right but we for this study there was no we didn't take an average of these bands and find that step four was the actual average of all of these bands is that correct that's correct okay for the see sorry my questions in like 10 different spots for the Open Range we used a midpoint correct and so you'll have to help me out here because I looked into this and it sounds like midpoint is something that's used in multiple cities it's very.

Common it's very common when I hear midpoint and this is coming from somebody who lives with a statistician or someone that teaches stats my my inclination is to not trust that number because it is literally just the middle of the top and the bottom but we don't actually it does not reflect what is happening within those ranges so am I correct in understanding that if we were comparing a midpoint to the 60th percentile depending on how many actual people and their where they fell within that range we could already be meeting that 60th percentile in terms of actual numbers so your midpoint is based on the 60th percentile of Market actual salaries so those are the salaries that are being paid to incumbents in those jobs it's not it does not have it's not based on the Range but it's based on the people that are actually in those jobs so we are collecting actual salary information from the comparator group and calculating the 60th percentile so that's what people are actually being.

Paid and that's determines that market rate for your pay range I don't understand how it's what they're actually being paid because the midpoint is just that I mean on the on the ranges sorry I'm just coming back up to the the one you have the the current and the proposed on the same slide those those mid-ranges are literally exactly in the middle correct like it takes the lowest paid person and the highest paid person and it's exactly the middle of those two no no it's not so those pay ranges again that's based on that 60th percentile of the market actual salaries so we use that point to determine that midpoint in the range and then we're calculating out the minimums and maximums based on these spreads that are appropriate for the jobs in found in those ranges right but what I'm saying is that like the actual people that is not an this is not an average that we're looking at like this midpoint yeah we're not yeah we're not.

Comping this is the and I might not be asking my question well but I I would like to help understanding this because th when I look at our current ranges we have for example just on the first one c41 we have a range minimum a range maximum and we have a range mid and that range mid is literally exactly in the middle of the minimum and the maximum correct and so that is not accounting for the actual average that people in c41 get paid correct and so we are comparing it against the 60th percentile of actual salaries in the market potentially we could already be meeting that in terms of our actual pay if all of c41 folks or the majority of them vast majority of them were on the between the middle and the max we would already be potentially paying them by the 60th percentile right like we could be we don't have an average we're not compar we're comparing an average or 60th percentile to something that's not.

An actual average is that true do what. Right so we're we're assessing the structures when we are conducting this analysis right so we're using that market actual salaries as a way to establish that midpoint your employees could be paid at any point within that range so we're not comparing your employees actual salaries to the market in this case we're comparing that midpoint right as a comparison of the range to that standard which the organization has set as its strategy for that particular right I mean I guess my question is then why are we using actual averages on one side to compared to our structure on the other side why are we not comparing our mid-range with other midranges for those those ban jobs that's a great question so one of the reasons for using actual salaries is because you are really looking at what incumbents are being paid in the jobs that we are serving the range presents the potential for pay within a particular job so in this case.

The city has chosen to look at what is actually being done in the market what people are actually being paid in the market to establish these pay ranges now some organizations really do they'll compare midpoint to midpoint and their philosophy is that they want to ensure that their pay ranges meet the pay ranges of other organizations but in your case you're looking at what people are actually being paid in the market to help you establish a range that will be competitive with the salaries that are being paid in the market.

Yeah I mean I I'm really stuck here and then I'm GNA have the same issue I think and the next one too but it just I understand sort of the reasoning behind it but it feels like we're comparing to different things and so we get a result that is we have a structure that theoretically matches or is above the market average but we don't actually know if our employees are going to be above or below that market average yes so I think so there's a market study and I'm trying to dissect into your question your line of questioning as well there's a market study but council member C you looking at a market study compared to a salary study in internally well we're going to be using what ever we get this proposed pay structure is is going to have real money consequences right and so I'm trying to understand how we got the pay structure that was presented because we and I'm I'm asking these questions and I'm getting the answers that I.

Thought that I was going to get and I'm still confused because we are comparing our structure to actual averages in the market we're not comparing our structure to their structure and so what we end up not knowing is like how we actually compare on our averages like we don't know how our actual numbers compare and we don't know how our structure Compares because we're comparing our structure with their averages and so we don't get we don't actually get either thing so you're looking at the model versus the model that was designed compared to the actual Market study that was done no so we actually have looked at how minimums compare to each other midpoints compare maximums compare so we have that information as well as how what you're paying employees compared to what someone else is paying employees so we have that dat however for the purposes of developing these pay ranges the philosophies and the strategies that we just talked about that was the Baseline for establishing these ranges.

And that was something we talked about with leadership it was also discussed in the previous study and Leadership elected to go forward with the same similar philosophy of using actual salaries to establish the pay ranges okay I'm gonna move on to the ne I might come back to this but I'm G to move on to the next one because I've I have more questions of course go so if we look at our police and fire yes well I have two questions the first is that we started doing those annual salaries as opposed to hourly salaries like we did the other two is there a reason that we changed from hourly to annual for those it it's just to account for some of the difference in schedules so we brought everything to the same basis and use the annual rates to account for different schedules but everything is on the fundamentally the same basis so we did we that is not by hour it is when you say that we did it.

By to comparable so if if for example we have fire that works more hours than police or more than 40 hours a week let's say than just a general step plan person we're not getting their annual salary based on the number of hours that they work we're getting a if it's 40 hours a week no it's it's based on their schedule so Duran's current schedule so it is their it is their actual annual salary yes okay okay so what we don't get is there if they work more hours we don't get that isn't taken into account if they their hourly average is lower because they work more hours okay that one we started a range minimum and what I think I understood you saying is that it's it's a minimum per rank so rank yes compared per Rank and then in your analysis did we also look at how long or the experience needed or or whatever any other comparables to how the people move from rank to rank no okay and.

So again I think I'm confused because now we have a comparison of a minimum and then we grow out from there but then if we don't have the next steps then it's like we're going to know that our first step on all of these matches the market but then we don't know moving forward if we're above or below the market because we don't know then the progression so in the case of police and fire it is very very close to the market data the 60th per of the minimum and the 60th percentile of the maximum so we fundamentally looked at both numbers to help establish there's no those new proposed ranges for each rank while using the 5% to get us through that range wait sorry could you say that one more time so the 60th percentile of the minimum and the maximum yeah we looked at both numbers to help us establish those new ranges for each rank because we were able to calculate the 60th percentile of the.

Markets minimum and the 60th percentile of the markets maximum for each of those.

Ranks that was why you were pointing out that it was so close in in the presentation you were saying the 60 percentile minimum and I'll just go back to the slide that that essentially you were your structures matched yes they they really do in the case of police and fire is that they really are comparable to both the 60 percenti the minimums and maximums I think what you're referring to is the regression modeling in the fit of the data to the pay range information that again that was an incredibly good fit so we were very happy to see that as well that's actually a great way because I have that highlighted as my next question can you just talk a little bit more about when you say that it was fitting like what what is it that was I'm I'm such a visual person I don't have the regression in front of me and so I'm having a hard time just like yeah and let me see if I can describe it in.

Words so thanks so anyone remember statistics back in in college or High School dramatically yeah for most people it is for for the data Geeks in the room we love it right so on our on our xaxis we have your pay grades and then on our Y axis we have salary so and each of those Benchmark jobs they're assigned to a grade and then in the market there is pay data associated with that at the 6 percentile and you can obviously run those together and that's a point so there's a scattergram that's created you know all the way through through the structure yes I do and so when you come because you said this is a kind of the you're giving us highle stuff and I think what what folks probably need is are the visuals to all of the things because at least some of us can still remember statistics and so to see that would be at least helpful sure sure that I think that's we we can get that to.

You thank you so if you remember the all those data points you can run a payline through those which is the best fit of that data right so we do that for for your data as well as for the market data so what we want to do when we create these new pay ranges is bring your line up to the market line and that's how we create that and if you remember back in stats remember r squared it represents that fit it was like 9674 if I remember correctly so really good fit thank you that I I'm good for right now I might revisit and hopefully your stats partner will like that as well yes I'm sure just want to apologize to the public this is very very complex but it's definitely needed yeah what statistics was the first math I understood the rest I didn't do so well so thank you you're welcome colleagues any other questions on this I just a comment I do want to this is a.

High level conversation but I I think it's worth noting that we had employees who actually went out and did their own research and they found actual salaries connected to actual people and then compare that to their situation this is building on that I mean when our employees asked us to go look at the market we understood exactly what they were talking about this is not doing violence to that ask at all it's deepening it it's broadening it because we do have a structure it it it's speaking to the structure but our employees full well know when they call their friends who work in Carri or other the cities and ask hey what do you make how long have you been there and they've done they brought that back and and I think this dishonors what they have asked for and and and and what they see in the market as well and and I don't you know I don't want to steal anybody's Thunder but we've gotten some pretty good feedback thus far from some.

Of the real actual employees in these departments on on on this and I'm sure we'll get to that so I do want to say that you know part of our job is to get into the minutia and and to you know question the the underg guarding methodology but this is very much in keeping with what some of our own employees have said to us when they've done their own Market studies so I just want to put that out there thank and the and the city has developed its own labor market we looked at those 17 organizations and that's who the city feels are their competitors and competitors for labor staff in general so that's the market that we use to help establish the fundamental basics of the new pay ranges and I just I just wanted to just kind of give a big shout out to council member cook just acknowledging this is your first time through it and it is it is definitely a different way.

To look at the way people are paid and I think your questions hearken into how much you do understand and I I think that when we do have the design conversation those are really good questions that we'll need to na naate and figuring out if that's the way we want to continue to move forward because I do think that there's factored in equity pieces that we're that are UNS said that need to be said and I think that would help a lot of this conversation as well so I appreciate the presentation thus far and it's really like like I said it's just a different way to look at how people are paid so thank you this veryy I want to associate myself with that comment I'm just centering the voices of people who actually work for us and and and they're not at odds those voices and the questions the conversation we're having now are not at odds but I think in centering those voices I think this is honoring those voices who were most.

Impacted by this conversation I mean I I have philosophical and Theological standings on compensation as well and payment but I think the leading voice in this conversation has been actual employees and for me that that's the more of an important driver than any assumptions I may bring to the conversation first I want to hear from the folk who are actually doing the work and and I think this this study has has done a good job in centering those voices and I want to keep I want to continue to keep those voices centered and we didn't talk about it about it this today but if you remember we did do employee focus groups back in October so that we could hear the voice of employees and they actually did direct us to certain issues that we needed to take a closer look at in the study and we heard them.

Thank you and I definitely want to highlight that because it was it was some contention around that well they didn't call me you know and I I just want to make sure that folks do know that we did have employees that work for the city actually involved thank you we can continue you're welcome I'll turn it over to Jim great thank you Alia if you could go to the next one so now that we've seen the pce structures from logic we're going to look at how that applies specifically to the city's Workforce next so let's talk about what the implementation would look like based on incorporating the proposed structures and also staying within the estimated costs discussed at the City Council budget Retreat where we presented so we're going to start by looking at the projected budget impact and then we're going to go through each pay structure to illustrate some of the finer points of the implementation strategy and finally we'll summarize the pay treatments and the expected timeline.

For the changes and as we go through the pce structures my slides are basically going to translate the before and after slides that Anette presented into percent adjustments showing how the actual employees would be affected so that's that's what you'll see as we go forward next so the bottom line with the budget estimate from The Retreat vers now is it's virtually the same at about 28.5 million as I mentioned before we're now able to take the proposed ranges and apply those directly to the city's current positions and employees to project these costs next slide and now on to the specific pay structures we're going to start by looking at the general step structure it's the most complicated one as far as the changes go because it incorporates that change from 4% to 5% of Step spreads and so each grade and step combination is going to have its own unique percent proposed pay adjustment as you can see in the chart so I know that's a very dense chart full of information it's.

The most complicated one you're going to see so we'll we'll keep it there a moment and and that showed you the the current and proposed dollar amounts so again this shows the percent change of those changes and you can see there's a wide range from 7.6% to over 20% depending on the grade in Step so the proposal is to allow employees to maintain their current step so for example if you're currently an employee in U pay grade a12 which you see at the top of the chart there and you're on step six your proposed pay adjustment is going to be that 13.48% listed in that in that grid you'll see with the other plans they had less complex proposed adjustments because in the other plans the range spreads as as Anette mentioned more largely maintained so I'll show you what what that looks like later in the presentation next so staying on the step plan this table shows how many General step positions are in each pay grade and the.

Range of pay adjustments proposed for each pay grade as you saw in the previous slide so a couple things to point out here the the number of positions column includes filled in vacant positions so where we've got the average proposed pay adjustments that a little bit lower there then that's because all vacancies naturally sit on Step One by default so that's why in this particular one we added the columns that you see to the right where it shows filled positions and gives a true or average for current actual.

Employees so still on the step plan we thought it might be useful to show an example and again looks like a lot of information but I'll kind of guide you through it so this illustration shows the reality of the current pay situation for our entry level positions at the base pay grade a12 as well as the proposed adjustments and how that's going to affect actual employees So currently Anette mentioned this but the lowest paid General step employee makes $18.82 an hour I'm going to note here too that these are rounded amounts our system actually goes out four decimal places so if anybody's trying to calculate at home you might get a few pennies different but So currently no employees are on step one of of grade a12 is that's below the Curr the current Duram minimum livable wage and with the proposed adjustments these employees on step two would stay on step two and receive a 9.25% adjustment which would bring their hourly rage wage to $256.

And then for those who were hired prior to January 1st and receive acceptable evaluations they'll move to step three at $2,159 an hour with their Merit increase so in the previous structure this step would have been worth 4% and now it's now it's 5% therefore almost all General step employees that are currently with the city will make at least $21 59 cents an hour by the end of July 2024 so by example most employees earning 188 82 today will be earning over 14.7% more on July 31st than they were on June 30th slide like I said the the general step plan had the most complex changes for implementation so we're moving onto the Open Range which is simpler and as a reminder which you we just talked about but the pay grades have a Min mid and Max instead of steps in the open range so the proposed percent adjustments are the same for all employees in a given pay grade except for one minor exception that I'll talk about in a minute and.

Just as we are proposing to keep General step employees on their current step current open range employees are proposed to keep their position in the range so that's not as complicated as it sounds so for example an employee at midpoint in the current range would stay at midpoint in the revised range and because the range spreads didn't change in the in the open range the math works such that U the proposed adjustment to the to the pay grade gets applied to all positions in that pay grade making it relatively simple to to calculate and and Implement the proposed exception I I mentioned is for employees in the executive group of classifications so in order to stay within the the estimate that we gave at the budget retreat The Proposal is to cap adjustments for executive level positions at 5% and this is U basically anyone who's an an assistant Department director or hire I will note that there is one classification in that d65 range that is not executive level so they're not.

Proposed to be subject to the. Cap so you can see the number of positions in each pay grade and what percentage adjustment is being proposed the pay grades starting at d64 and down through e92 contain all of the executive level classifications and as I mentioned d65 has those one classification with it's four four total positions in there that are not executive level in that. Grade so moving on to police the proposed police adjustments are also fairly simple to to implement as proposed because as Anette mentioned they were able to be modeled pretty precisely to Market findings for each each of the pay grades so and since the step spreads remained at 5% for this structure the sworn positions within a pay grade are proposed to all receive the the pay adjustment indicated regardless of.

Step and finally here's fire so again like police this was modeled precisely to Market findings and as we noted back at at the budget Retreat there were some positions to be at or above Market in this structure so those particular positions are not proposed to receive Market adjustments but will of course be eligible for merit increases and again like police regardless of the steeping employee is on the same pay adjustment percentage is proposed to be applied by pay grade as shown in the. Table okay so now let's talk about the pay treatment Mechanics for the proposed implementation so this first of all this this whole process is about valuing employees jobs and their performance so when we're talking about the pay adjustments that we just covered in the presentation and recognizing you know the current market situation and accounting for internal Equity those are all certainly part of valuing the job as as are the the proposed reclassifications the pay for performance increases are about value and performance so the pay adjustments so the way.

This would work as proposed is the pay adjustments related to the compens compensation study would be applied first followed by pay for performance Merit increases and then any employees that are U being reclassified into a higher level would then receive an additional increase and I'll show you the timeline proposed on the next slide so so showing the specific timeline all employees who are receiving a pay adjustment based on the compensation study results would see that on their July 12 paycheck pay for performance will be reflected on their July 26th paycheck and then anyone receiving a classification adjustment we'll see that on their August 9th paycheck we will be sending specific Communications to each employee detailing so everybody gets this is exactly what your proposed increase is going to be and if they're structure classes changing in any way that information would be included as well and that concludes our presentation much big questions all right Alex you turn to Michael just had a couple questions regarding I guess before implementation however this moves.

Forward is there gonna is is there going to be like sessions that actually review individual or Department level like questions around this I know last time we went through this my daughter's calling last time we went through this there was some confusion because we didn't have I guess specific areas covered in that way and I just want to make sure we don't do the same thing and Miss opportunity to answer some fol questions beforehand Adam manager thank thank you for the opportunity to speak so we always learn from previous experiences I would really like to thank the team that is standing here those who are present and those who are not present as well as every the leaders everyone we've worked together to really really come up with something that is digestible even though we were creating this these changes as we're going along sharing them when we have information that is accurate and information that can be understood U cly we have plans to communicate with our employees I have already started.

That directly by by recording a video that all of our employees could view explaining what we were going to be doing for today for you all as well as sharing with the community as we have talked about here we have over 2,800 employees in the organization we want to make sure that we have Direction as we're going along before we share information with employees that may cause them to have additional confusion as we as we get direction from you and you know ultimate approval we intend to have a a a letter a written communication that's going to every single employee explaining the situation regarding their pay so they will receive that directly we also understand that there are areas you know some folks working the same jobs we we make it U available to employees to be able to come into auditoriums or spaces for example Solid Waste Department they have an auditorium there they have meetings that we have participated in recently and will continue to do so we.

Go at this in multiple ways but most importantly we want to make sure that we are transmitting you know accurate information the information that we can be pretty you know pretty certain is going to happen for them so hopefully that is responsive to you but we we have heard you know from our employees when they don't know what's going on or they don't know it early enough and we have tried to address that in in this particular particular project so hopefully that's respons thank you I appreciate that and then just had a followup is there a metrics or process that folks can follow if they do have questions or like some type of direct way that they can like not like a like their Durham one call version of this is the question I.

Have so we do have a frequently ask questions that we are that's going ongoing so we we we recorded a video we thought of some frequently asked questions that employees might have to get sort of get it started and if we receive a question in from any employee we're adding to that Q&A and I see the HR team shaking their heads because sometimes one employee has a question other employees have it as well so that is another thing that we're doing and we have had that active I believe it's been since Monday of this week so for the past four days is there like an email address or phone number is it like how are they contacting you just call HR HR Connect is the is the best way to get directly to you know have the make sure that the call doesn't get on a voicemail or something like that it goes to HR Connect we have case you know case management in in that department where every question or inquiry gets number.

And gets followed but that's how we responded to that thank you I will just say this I appreciate the presentation and I think I I I understand that we're following this design and this is where we are right now and I do think there'll be some adjustments as we move forward but we'll see how things move thank you that's. All thank you this significant this this is a a significant amount of money and I'm looking at some of the numbers there are some folk in our organization who who are in position to get some significant increases and and thank God for it that that's a good thing I'm heartened by by some of the feedback I've heard I'm sure colleagues have heard as well from some of our most Ardent critics not perfect but but I'm heartened by some of the feedback we've gotten this is a serious serious addressing of the issue and you know I Echo there may be there may need to be tweaking but I I just.

Want to thank the staff for the work that they've done I want to I want to do want to operate operationalize the term internal equity and and what we mean by that is that addressing compression issues or individual folk who may fall into certain C this operationalize internal equity for me so the short answer to that is is yes I don't know if you all want to expand on that well when we talk about internal equity in the case of establishing the pay structure that's the pay grades that establish that Equity it creates an internal alignment of jobs relative to each other internal to the city it really doesn't have anything to do with what they're paid but it establishes a pay leveling approach to the jobs within the organization that I I appreciate that because I I wanted to I guess almost a RAR Shack test you can see what you want in it so I I appreciate you operationalizing I I got an email from a.

A union rep for a fire department who who expressed for the most part appreciation for the plan but but indicated a couple of individualized cases that may deal with compression or folk who might fall into to gaps or holes H how do you see any of that are there folk who we going to have to tweak or who may fall into specialized cases that might need ad hot kind of intervention even while the whole structure or most of the structure the whole is operating is it manager I think you gonna you want to sign in so may so whenever we we do this type of extensive Market review and we're looking at minimums we're looking at maximums we're looking at you know mid you know midpoints and those kinds of things we build the best structure based on you know regression and those kinds of statistical modeling but we realize we have employees who are here right now and when we implement we do have to look at whether or not in.

Implementing in a very you know broad sense would create something internal that we would have to adjust or or correct upon implementation and that is not new we we we actually have to do that every time that we have you know a major Market adjustment because the market is not going to stay the same if we actually had internal Equity as it has been described in the previous Market study and we do a new market St study you know some positions may have increased a bit more than other positions and may cause you know minor tweaks to have to be made but we are committed to looking at every situation that needs to be you know needs to be edited or or looked at but that is implementation which is really different from the overall information that you've seen here so that happens upon implementation I I appreciate that find police Corporal over 22% firefighter 17 percent I wish I got racist like that but but they.

Deserve it and I I do want to say that the I do want to say that the the the I know there's been impatience with the process and and there were some who who advocated for kind of a quick knee-jerk visceral kind of response without doing all of this due diligence and I'm not mad at that I understand where where it comes from and where it came from but there's a reason why we're we're celebrated as one of the best run cities in the country and and this is what it looks like when when we do it and plan on keeping the lights on everywhere else in the city as well and keep fixing potholes and keep answering 911 calls keep doing all the other things that we're required to as a city this is what the process looks like and and for those for that it took too long you know deepest apologies and and but this is what it looks like and and this is and I'm I'm proud we're not to talk.

About paying for it you know that's the other part and I know we're gonna have that conversation soon but I I I can't thank you man of manager enough and your staff for the work you've done Under Fire oftentimes under you know blistering critique including not caring about people but alas you know we've come to point and I look forward to even conversations that my my colleagues have have echoed and in toned about possible changes moving forward but this is a serious serious engagement of what our folk have asked for and I hope that this the the the arms race will continue you know other cities will look at us and you know we'll we'll have to act accordingly and and we'll be back at it again but that that's what we're here for so thank you so much and and we'll talk about paying for it in due time as well his honor out of the chamber I'll assume to gavl council member rist and Council cavier thank you man Pro thanks.

For the comments I appreciate that the first question I have was about I think I think this is where you're going this is this issue not just compression but it sounds like this this bypassing issue and I think that's that's the email we got from folks in the fire Union so I just want to confirm again city manager that that's that's one of the issues you're aware of so it's kind as we refined this okay I just want to make sure that's yeah clear good I question this is more of a math question so and this is just a high level thing but it seems like as we looked at those numbers in many cases so we got there were significant increases for folks at the at the at the beginning of a pay grade in many cases right but often as you went down the pay grade or as you went sort of like when you went U I'm sorry as you went the higher the step but then the higher the pay.

Grade increases were even larger right soes that mean that we were not only were our entry level positions were not being paid Market we actually weren't as people were getting experience we weren't rewarding them as well as they as they grew in their positions right so those are both true right I mean largely speaking Yeah it's a little more complicated than that but for example if you're speaking about the the step structure itself that some of those increases at the larger steps were a direct consequence of going from four to 5% spread between the steps because the decision to keep people at the same step that they're on you know that you think about the way that that that works out mathematically you know if you're going from this is partly math right from step one to step four with a 4% spread that's a spread of 12 if you're going with the 5% spread that's a spread of 15 and that spread increases as you as you go up the line so the the.

Higher the the step it's it's kind of like you know rewarding employees that have been here for a long time didn't have the benefit of those 5% steps along the way and now now they are sort of getting getting made up for that that benefit appreciate that and the last comment just is that I know we had a lot of conversations earlier at the budget Retreat and at I think a previous work session about this issue of of how we're rewarding employees at the bottom and at the higher end so I just want to say I really appreciate the cap of on increases for executive positions at 5 percent that's a significant sort of policy decision there that I think reflects both the the commitment to Greater Equity among staff but also I know it's partly for Budget reasons as well so I think for both reasons I really appreciate that and want to again appreciate the manager and her staff for the for the hard work on this and those important policy.

Decisions so thank you Mr Mayor thank you I appreciate the presentation and I agree with a lot of what's already been said I guess my question is when when are we having the conversation about how are we paying for it you know I think there's a lot of things that were done in this in this circumstance you know I get that folks maybe want more and that's their job their job is to ask for more but I think that a lot of a lot of goals were hit and you know a budget is every year and you get better and you get better and so the you know I think some colleagues raised you know the the piece around percentages you know well 5% at a higher amount means more than at a lower amount and so I think the fact that we've capped basically the executive level of that 5% addresses that it doesn't address a policy change which I think we've discussed is going to have to be a.

Deeper conversation than what we would have done with a with this type of study but I think at least in the short term sols for that I think that we've heard loud and clear from police and fire around competition and and what they're seeing in other markets and I think we are delivering very significantly that is a lot that is those are really large increases and they deserve it so there's not a question about whether they deserve it or not it's just a question of we really wanted to be thorough and you know I think there's a few cities who've been pulling out a fund balance to pay for their police officer increases and I will never ever approve of that because they're going to be hurting in a two or three year so while I appreciate employees you know heard around what you know what what they want it it wouldn't have helped them long term I think this really sets us up for really clear long-term path I think if you're.

On the step plan you can clearly see where your money is going to be and how well you're doing and I think that is a really great retention tool and then the last thing is one thing I do want to talk about is like with I know they're doing the they're they're getting the market adjustment if they were here pre January 1 2024 and and they have their Merit increase they're also getting potentially whatever that Merit increase for the step plan and for police and fire it's 5% it's flat but for the open ranges it's a it's a range right and so I guess I would love to know you know what are we seeing financially I think we budget for what 5% okay but then I guess it'd be interesting to see the actual kind of numbers of who who is getting more of the 6% because I think that does also create an equity question at least in my mind and again I don't think we're going to solve for it this year.

Because this is already a lot of money but I think it does kind of bring up this whole question around how are we doing pay structures in in the city so that's something I'd like to see as a council member is just numbers of overall what are the the numbers of folks who are getting you know exceeds right because it's exceeds exceeds gives you 6% Merit raise versus meets meets and then meet succeeds so that's just a question I had sure and do you are you interested in just the previous year's data or more than one year's data on that or maybe three years thank.

You just one thanks Mr Mayor one last comment I know we also talked at the budget Retreat about this issue of $25 and I think you gave us a number at one of the Retreats about what it would cost to get there now but I think if you look at the proposed pay structure on the steps with a 5% increase essentially it looks like at the lowest grade we'll get there in four years four years if we take July one is the date most of the steps are getting there way faster so we're going getting to 25 pretty quickly with most of these which is good to see so I appreciate that oh sorry I'll yield I'll y so I was just say also you know the the basic is the Merit increase in previous years we've also had to do you know cost of living increases so I think last year was 3% and the year before that was 4% which when you think about that it's going to get folks even even more.

Quickly that's on a year-to-year basis but we have had to make those adjustments thank you and just to Dov tail and councilman RIS Point new hires don't have to start on step one I mean we you know we're not looking at the actual hiring decisions based upon experience and and credentialing so there will be folk will hire who will make over 25 even based upon exper I think that's an important point to make the other thing I want to say is you know when when you hear folk aale outrageous executive compensation they ain't talking about Municipal workers you know and and you know when we're talking about folk hundred and some odd thousand dollar in this organization is 300,000 in the private sector if you were doing something comparable or more so you know I get it you know CEO is making 400% more than the lowest play employee that's not who municipal government is and and the folk we're talking about you know 5% yeah is different when you're making 100,000 as.

Opposed to 40,000 but those $100,000 folks started off as many of them started off at the 40,000 range these are folk who who worked their way up through the organization worked hard many of them are the first in their generation to go to college or or be homeowners and I just want us to be careful because I understand what we're talking about but these ain't the folk that that that are doing that you know it took them a long time to get to that six-digit ranking a lot of sacrifice and a lot of hard work and many of them started at the beginning you know very early the organization so I I just want to make sure we're targeting the right people when we focusing on the right people when we talk about equity and compensation and and outrageous salaries for folk these are not those folk in the municipal government but I understand and I just want to thank those who have had long fruitful careers with the city.

And I want to see them and their children Thrive thank you Mr Mayor thank you I just wanted to add to council member cab er's question and just acknowledge that the meats meat and the meat exceeds there's a breakdown around race and gender it' be good to see that as.

Well any other comments all right yeah go ahead yeah just real quick yeah we've been talking about very high dollar values today between infrastructure and and employees and there are exciting things to spend money on it's where we want our money to go it's when where tax dollar should go and so it's interesting coming in as a as a newly elected member of this Council where the the prior members had already put in place the the decision-making that went behind the the pay increases and you know it's obviously very very exciting huge huge change huge increases and I am putting together a list of questions I'm not gonna ask a bunch of questions right now but I'm putting together a list of questions just because I want to learn more and and make sure that that I understand everything that we're doing but overall I'm I'm excited that that we're seeing these increases in the numbers behind them thank you and just one other thing I just can't leave the conversation without.

Saying that it's not just the increase it's actually like the the opposite is true as well and so the staff that's been underpaid all this time there's an angst there and so I do appreciate the presentation I appreciate the comments and I I just want to make sure that we we don't lose sight of these are people these are our staff our employees who have been working for us and so when you say 22% underpaid based on the market that's kind of shocking so thank you all so much I I just want to say to our our our staff our our city employees that know we see you we see you and and we we hear you we're listening and we we agree with you as well and we're also responsible for having the most practical and realistic way of getting there you know folks run for office to be disruptors that's what we are we we you know we look at whatever the status quo.

Is and we get in office and we push that envelope and and then we have amazing amazing staff like yourselves to execute all of those things and it just I can't say it enough man I'm just so grateful that we are the city of dur not every city can say this not every not every city can do this you know and so I'm I'm sorry I it's just it feels really good to be on this team to our lowest paid employees the folks that are just coming into your career and starting out in the city of Durham we welcome you into you know a a we welcome you into a a setting where we actually we actually care and we want to make sure that you know you can get started on having a decent quality of life you know I know you won't get rich in this line of work but you know we want to make sure that you know you can have a decent quality of life and I.

Always use that that analogy around a loaf of bread you know from the bottom paid employee to the highest paid employee the loaf of bread is the same you know it costs the same and that cost impacts the person in their wages differently so I want to say to our higher pay employees we also see you and thank you because there's a sacrifice that's not not being stated here as much as well whereas you know you can easily say listen I put in my time I went to school I have my degrees I I got my professional development and I know it takes a lot to work so hard to get where you are and then you hear people who are not even city employees you hear people you know attack you you know for for where your salary range is you know and so what what I'm saying is we hear all of this and we're trying to make the best decision forward and I know that you know those I think.

It's d64 and down or up a lot of those folks are you know they're quiet and they're probably boiling inside you know also because like wait a minute you know I did what I did to get here and now I have to make this sacrifice but those relationships are Ironclad I appreciate manager Paige you know just communicating that like we this was a this was a a this was a it was a tough decision I'm sure but it was also a value's decision of how do we you know look at the bigger picture and there were sacrifices made on both ends of this all the way to the middle and and that's why you g to you know for the most part it's not perfect but for the most part most people are at least okay or or feeling better than they were so you know from from the Lord here all the way to the highest here I just want everyone to know we we see you.

You know and it's I think it's the most practical Way Forward I think it does have the equity lens I think everybody is moving on and and we're responding to the market but I I just also manager PC you I appreciate the response of the fiscal responsibility here as well to council member kier's point there are some people that are paying salaries out of their fund balance and I know for a fact they are in trouble right now they're in trouble other municipalities so we we hit as many marks and targets that we could in this and and I'm just I'm just grateful for the work that's been put into it and I and my colleagues to you all I just really appreciate those deep diving questions as well anytime we have to like probably have a an interpretation of what we just talked about that means that we are really paying attention and and to the community you can trust that we're putting in that work so thank you all as.

Well well all that's all I have I do you all need direction man manager page man I think you have it all right thank you all so much thanks for this work we can take a break all right let's take let's take a quick break if I say five minutes it'll take 10 so let's take a five minute break I see you back it's what time is it0 it's 4:30 now so take a f minute break I'll see you back at.

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A fast-paced presentation we're trying to be conservative with budgets here so don't feel like you have to expend all of what's been budgeted to you today TimeWise but you may please you may get started thank you thank you good afternoon mayor mayor 10 by M's Council don gley Department of Water Management here today to talk about the water and sewer fund and the proposed rates for next year in a day of big numbers I I'm unfortunately are bringing even bigger numbers to you or consideration to lead off as we have an overview of the utilities assets that we operate maintain have to renew and replace as well as lookout for new regulations and and utility efficiencies as I mentioned down at the bottom we serve over 320,000 people every day with the number of accounts so we we send roughly 1.2 million bills a year so to our customers that we also manage when we're outlining our rates we're going to talk about our rate objectives strategies key issues that.

Always play into how we calculate our rates we take our strategies and key issues and objectives match that with our Capital Improvement program and look at our consumption how much water we need where the where's the consumption in the different tiers and that puts it all together into the pros rate so please ask questions as we go along once again it hasn't changed and you know since I've been director you know our rate setting objectives are affordability across all of our customers sustainability for the utility to be able to make sure that we address all of our operating needs and our long-term capital needs and we want to continue to promote water efficiency and conservation which is our tier right rates when it comes to affordability you know the tiered rates allows customers to really Empower them to manage their costs we look at having small incremental rate increases although the rate increases have been growing each year to be people minimize that impact the customers we want to avoid rake shock we've implemented programs.

To assist our low and fixed income customers the last several years and been very successful with those and we continue to look for other ways to to meet those needs looking historically at our rates you can see we've kept our rates relatively flat especially when it comes to the tier one two and three which represents almost 86% of our customer base for single family homes it does increase as I'll be talking to you shortly about the Jordan like project is now having a big impact in our Pro in our proposed rates as in our CIP as that project now becomes real and we will be spending some significant dollars on that project so but still we try to keep the small increases to try to keep all of these Aver you know all of that graph nice and flat and smooth as possible when it comes to affordability we continue our payment arrangements we're customers can move their bill around if they can't if they call us and contact us and say can I pay.

My bill next week instead of this week we arrange that if they want to pay the bill in then installments because they've hit a rough patch you know we work things out with them so that's been very successful as I mentioned the last two years the silver lining in Co is we had a lot of Outreach with our customers and we really educated our customers about payment arrangements and how they can you know manage their bills when it comes to the water the water bill and it's been very successful we also have a hardship fund where the general fund is $150,000 annually two years ago that was increased by Council up to 250,00 000 for customers because there was a high use of that hardship fund this year we should be able to the $150,000 we're projecting to be spent under that by the end of the year currently as a aaple for us we've only spent $100,000 in that program prior to that you know the lowincome household water assistance.

Program did expire but but that program was able to help help over 800 customers with their water bills so our key strategies real quick we and we don't charge for reconnects anymore we we did away with the disconnect fees correct yeah I think that's worth noting because we we I remember sitting on a a panel at National League of cities talking about what Durham had done with our using League that you remember that whole water thing yes and a lot I I couldn't believe how many people were surprised at that from an equity point of view not we we did away because it's significant s that could be a significant source of income but on the backs of poor folks so so I think it's just worth saying that that's also part of a and we we still even though that we you know did that several years ago we're still contacted by utilities about hey you know we we finally we heard that you did that how.

Did you do it so we continue to you know meet with them and explain why we did it how we did it absolutely Etc so that's been very successful no I just wanted to yeah I didn't see the pay but but yeah kulos so our key strategies was to once again we have a 10-year financial model and look look ahead for 10 years for Capital programming we want to continue to have our small sustainable increases every year we want to cover all our operating Capital expenses meeing new regulations as I mentioned before accessing our allocation for Jordan Lake and we want to continue to manage our debt to the benefit of our rate payers not necessarily High Bond ratings but we do have very high Bond r ings for utility so when it comes to the capital Improvement program our strategy there is of course to maintain all of our infrastructure we want to continue towards developing and building the infrastructure to access our Jordan Lake allocation and put tier quy online as.

Emergency water supply Source we have new regulations that we have to meet last week the EPA came out with the baz regulation around per and poly floral alal compounds they came out with six compounds that need to be regulated out of those six two of them are not in our water one of which is Gen X we haven't found in in all of our sampling since 2018 two are well so far below you know they're in our water but they're so far below the maximum containment level that we really won't have to worry about them now but there are two p and p p that we will have to address in the coming years our sampling shows us we're below and above the EPA regulations so depending on the type of year and the time of year so we will have to do some increased treatment at our plants to be able to make sure that we can meet that we have five years to be able to do that so and we started that.

Process seven months ago there's a contract that came in front of you all for having a consultant come on board to help us with that so don if I can ask about that this is this is a big issue the the league is the state noron league is going to be taking up particularly for some of our smaller towns yes how they're going to be burdened to meet these standards are are we looking at just are these chemical add or additives or or is it actual Hardware what is that look like comp a lot of these they're called for a lot of them are you may have heard heard of them as called forber chemicals because they're in thousands of household products no I mean our respon how what we need to do to come into compliance and and address with them is our response chemical as well I know they're chem there's different type of processes that can be utilized to be able to to take these out.

Of you know part of the issue right now is once you take them out how do you dis where do you dispose of them right right so that's that's a because you'll you'll we'll remove them from the drinking water but now we have to do something with them so and that's ongoing discussion with the state of North Carolina that they'll be giving direction to us on how how what do we do with these res idual that we have taken out of our water and the FEDS might be piling on as well with their own their reck is is is are we is this a big ticket item how how expensive is this kind of based on some early discussion with some of our Consultants we currently have a 30 million doll process Improvement in the CIP program for two and a half years from now for actual construction so we don't we don't think it's going to be too big of a heavy lift compared to the.

Overall CIP but you know as I as you'll see in a moment or two costs are going up so but we'll know more in about you know I think that prary study should be complete in about eight months cool thank you I can also just ask about that appreciate Don that you mentioned that because I know this has been a big issue since the EPA came out with their new standards just the last week or so so just to put a yeah just to sort of put finer point on this so the standard is like it's like four micro whatever particles per something as a standard depends on the compound yeah and and we're and so so in the the data I've seen about Durham shows that for those two compounds we're like maybe just slightly above but we're but compared to many of our peer cities we're I mean we're just barely above right so this is not a for for residents of Durham this is.

Not a major concern I mean we we want to be concerned about forever chemicals yes but we're in pretty good shape compared to most cities right well you know depends on where you are certainly in Greensboro is a major major concern in Burlington area because the industries that were discharged there is is a major concern but for us because we're you know so we're just straddling the line on that it's not going to be a biger heavy lift for us be able to meet those regulations I don't know if this is a question for you but so what's the I mean to to your point that I know this is bankrupting smaller communities water Municipal Water or not bankrupt but it well it might actually what is going to be the recoup cost from industries that have I mean it's private it's Private Industry that caused the problem so where where is the state or the federal government on recouping especially because water is a municipal thing it's not provided by the.

State or there's a lot of legal action going on right now the act the city of Durham was asked to sign on to two class action suits against some of the larger chemical companies most of the cities in North Carolina chose to bow out at least the initial of that I'll defer to city attorney's office that we continue to monitor that closely surrounding that and where that's headed okay thank you and just to the city attorney's office I don't care if it's only affecting us minimally I want people to pay so whatever you need from us I I want I like getting money back because it wasn't our problem so understood okay we also just point out probably in in 2026 27 time frame there'll be new reg regulations surrounding nutrient removal in both Falls and Jordan Lake as well coming up we currently are looking at you meeting our development needs as and the new comprehensive plan to make sure that the water and sewer services are there.

To meet that new development and of course to fund efficiencies within the utility quick time frame for our projects you know 15 years plus for a new water resource or a plant you know four to five years we're seeing now for major pipeline projects recent CIP impacts mostly the the what's come around the sure what happened I'll try to get us back as I as you maybe see in in front of you we've seen a 40% increase in costs this past year to design and construction and if you look at our design and construction costs for our projects over the last three years the the overall cost has increased almost 80% which has been unprecedented in our industry and the Staffing is not only the city of Duram but it's also with Design Consultants so a lot of our design and in contractors everything just taking longer there just few fewer resources Human Resources both on the design and construction side so we're seeing both projects and Design take longer in talking about the.

Capital program I want to talk about just highlight some of the where some of the money is going that you've seen here of course at Little River and Lake Mickey at Little River right now we have a $75 million project that is improving and both the Little River raw water pump station and renewing completely the lake Mickey pump raw water pump station inside where we're REM moving everything in interior all mechanical electrical pumping valving everything and replacing it with new as well as the intakes on the other side in the in the next 5 years we'll have to do some structural improvements on both dams on Little River we have some settling on the spillway where that arrow is pointing and we have some concrete degradation at Lake Mickey so those two projects are rejected to be anywhere from 70 to $85 million to be able to do that we want to bring tier core online in the next five years R it's a quarry that we built or excuse me we.

Acquired in in 2000 and we'll be refilling that when Lake Mickey overflows and pump raw water in there to have it for an emergency water supply should we have a drought Jordan Lake and as I mentioned is having a major impact to our financial programming this is a generational type project you know the city you know built Lake Mickey and and then 50 years later we built Little River to be able to have water for the city Durham so the city can grow we're at the the point now where we need to add another Water Resource we need to build a resource that can take advantage of our 16 and A5 million a day allocation from Jordan Lake the project entails a new raw water intake on the lake itself pumping to a new brand new water treatment plant and then pumping that water back to Durham 17 miles and currently that's that's a it'll be a ultimately be a regional facility but Durham will be building it first and then eventually both chadam County.

And aasa and Pittsboro who have allocations in the lake will also buy in and pay for expansions of our facilities and pay us back for the investment that we have so so that's a currently projection is a $600 million project so but as I you know the last three years we've almost triggered our water shortage response plan in the fall so it's h because of the downd draw of the summer demand and so it's really important for us to be able to bring this resource online to be able to continue to grow up through 2050 maybe into 2060 that is a it's pretty lucrative and I'm glad we're the supplier because that you know that next area that's really going to grow is that chadam pisor area question around the design of it are we and I I just don't know so I'm asking when we're building these facilities is it a way to like build Recreation around it like maybe like a walking trail around the around it or do.

We want to keep people away from it no well right now we're we're at the the state park right there is where the intake is going to be so we've actually you know engaged the parks because some of the choices we had was to build a influent pump station on the shore in the park or put the intake out in the lake and they told us to put the intake out in the lake so we've been in we've been talking to the to the state and the Fish and Wildlife as well as the state parks for the last four years those facilities and also with chadam County about potential walking trails intersection improvements as far as you know because all of that is in chatton county and I I only ask I look at Lake Mitchie Lake Mickey it is absolutely beautiful you know Little River the same and another thing that people really underestimate the beauty of is our our Solid Waste facility and all of that land out there it's it's absolutely.

Gorgeous you it's a lot of open space and I know you probably think well it's trash but it's so well managed and once you go all the way to the back you know it kind of goes up on a hill it's a bit mountainous and you look over you just see all of the grey across the D the city of doram yeah I me just as in aside you know because we oversee the management of the closed landfill for in water management is I think once the landfill is a little more mature and the settlements you know because we're still having some significant settlement in and around every year that we have to fill in to be able to maintain the cap on the landfill I think one that once that kind of stops and we see that for an extended period of time then the city could actually at that point then look at programming from from a Parks some wreck standpoint but we kind of really.

Have to wait for the the settlements to stop gotcha thank thank you I know Raleigh right at the right at 540 and Capital that I don't it's like a landmine or something Landfield or something but a walking trail up to the very top with Parks set it it's beautiful it's use it it's multi-use multi-purpose thank you go ahead yeah another program we U allocate about $500,000 annually is to purchase land in in around Lake Mickey and Little River for water quality protection we also have a Watershed protection plan where we're I'm participating with a triangle Land Conservancy to buy land Upstream of Lake Mickey and Little River to have easements and or land purchase to put it in Conservancy once again to protect the Watershed the green shows this has been a passive program as residents are looking to sell their property the city's been purchasing land in around Lake Mickey for two fold as I said one for for water quality but also if you see that red line that goes around what comes.

After you know when we go to Beyond Jordan Lake the will then have if it continues to grow we'll need another water source so we would be able to the city would be able to build a larger taller Dam and raise Lake Mickey 20 fet to be able to add another 17 million gallons a day in water for water resource planning so we we also you know in the capital program we're doing all the renewal and maintaining of all of our four facilities as I mentioned earlier you know we have new regulations coming that we'll have to be able to build improvements to be able to meet all of those regulations but we have a lot of renewal I me right now we're in finishing the design of repairing the the basins at the Williams plant those are the basins you see from the golf course side they're you need to be repaired structurally we have the final filters at South Duram which is 40 45 year old technology that I think.

We're one of the last cities in the in the country that has that technology that we need to replace so all of those projects are really expensive and we but we continue to do work at all of those plants we're also looking at a u we're in the middle or we just started our bio energy master plan to better utilize the methane gas that we produce during the treatment process at our Reclamation facilities currently we're using that gas to drive the blowers that are used for our Asian basin rather than take that off the grid but we want to utilize that more effectively and more efficiently across both facilities so we hope to be able to expand that as well as bring solar energy to the facilities to help offset our electrical costs recommend everybody go out there and also get schools to take field trips that is phenomenal phenomenal operation Water Reclamation facilities they have cake but not the kind of cake you want to eat can you reach out to council or or.

Have somebody because maybe some of the newer council members are going to want to go on a tour and I would like to go on another tour absolutely phenomenal it's phenomenal it's so fun out there I love it yeah yeah we're already on we got a date so yeah you can join me if you want be happy to arrange that as far as the distribution collection system I just wanted to you know highlight a few things here we are replacing all of the water lines in the core of the city we've replaced the all the water lines in the downtown area extending Eastward to past the the new police station we've completed all the work in dur Central Park we've completed all the work in American Tobacco phase one and we're about to bid out American Tobacco Phase 2 eastm we've completed some of the early out projects and we're about ready to we're permitting now on phases the phase 1A and phase 1B in eastm so we expect to be under construction next fiscal.

Year and we expect to have some of the early out projects on the West End project along arnet Street next year as well in the West End area lion park is in the middle of that area to give you some idea of where that is so we're also you know replacing water and sewer lines in advance of dot projects City sidewalk and Street construction projects we're doing P repairs line repairs as needed across the city so don can I ask a quick question about the security of our system we've heard reports from Homeland Security lately and there have been some media reports on some cities particular Out West Water Systems being compromised and hacked right obviously not discuss specific protocols here but do do we need to be doing anything funding at the local level for hardening our system against we've been doing that okay we've been doing that you know we had the malware attack a few years ago did not touch our utility because it was isolated from the rest of the city's.

Network and we're we've been working closely with our technology Solutions Department to to further Harden our utility and and as have brought two different consultants in to help us with that work so we we continue to monitor that and proove it we have a our ska master plan that we're implementing as well so awesome yeah thank you as far as development we just finished some replacement of some large pump stations to be able to allow development to happen from 15501 business Mount Mari Mount Mariah Road area down south all the way to 54 you know we've put the Southeast Regional lift station came to Council in 2015 about proposing this area to build a master lift station to be able to pump allow development in this area and not have a plethora of small lift stations that lift station is complete and we've pumped the with phase one Force main that gets the the the Wastewater halfway to North Durham we have in the CIP programming the second.

Half of that Force main to bring it all the way to directly to north Durham so we have money in the CIP to finish that to allow all of that area to continue to grow in the Southeast around the South Point area of course the infrastructure that was built out there was built prior to South Point mall so we're having to upgrade all the lift stations and infrastructure in that area so we're putting a brand new lift station at Stage Coach Road and pumping it all the way to South Durham as well as taking existing station offline and improving another so we continue to to look where development is happening in the city and making infrastructure improvements in advance of that growth in those areas on the efficiency side as I mentioned the biosolids master plan and I mentioned solar energy if you haven't seen it that's the new solar array at Miss Lake that'll be going online in the next week or two as I or next few weeks we're excited about.

A little disappointing we couldn't use all of the roof space there because Duke Energy put a cap on how big an array we could put up there so which is maybe we but we'll continue to monitor that to see if we can expand that in the future so but that was it's pretty exciting to see that so we're taking that building Don that's the new city Hall I'm sorry well it's it's being well used by everybody all the training rooms so we're excited and continue to be excited that it's well used also we're as part of the programming is we're moving towards Ami Ami is Advanced meter infrastructure and you currently we have automated meter reading which a car goes down a vehicle goes down the road and reads the meters this will allow us to read the meter while we're sitting in an office and it'll also allow customers if they want to see their water use that they could log in and see their C their water consumption live so it'll be pretty.

Exciting and you know matched with the new Erp system they were're getting we should be able to do a lot of great things on the customer side that we're really excited about and as you mentioned you know we're continue to look at cyber security and our our scale systems just I'm not going to read them all but those are some of the larger projects they range anywhere from 30 million to 7080 million each so and that's what the the spend looks like as I said big numbers no nothing has this has all been programmed there's no surprises here we haven't added projects that we weren't talking about five years ago it's just the costs have come up significantly so as I when I I told the manager when I first put the slide together my first thought was I'm going to retire I don't think I want to show her this this this total but as I said you're really seeing the impact of Jordan Lake on this when it comes to water consumption.

Once again I want to highlight kudos to all of our customers and all of our Industries in Durham if you look at this is you know water consumption from 2001 to 2023 and just think about how much Durham has grown and you look at how level that water consumption is and you can see the dips where we've had droughts but as you can see V to the right it's starting to really climb because as as industry have reduced you know certainly as especially with the drought commity has massively reduced their water footprint nccu is doing the same all the larger Industries out in the park are doing the same our customers as they renovate older homes and put more water efficient appliances in and showers but at some point that's going to get us to a certain point and we have to look at you know bring in new water resour water resource online but we are seeing it definitely trending up in the last few years as far as where the spending is.

You can see in this this shows where our consumption is in the different tiers and relatively stable in tier one tier two and tier three there's been a little bit of growth in tier five the last few years the rates the for next year once again we're proposing to cover the operating and maintenance expenses personal services rate funded CIP and Debt Service if we didn't raise rates and we continue to the capital program you can see the size of the deficit on that slide the proposed rates once again modest increases to the service and cons ion charges I apologize I didn't catch it's an increase in Watershed protection fee it it should take continue our Watershed protection fee at 3 cents per CCF of course all the customers will see different percentages based on their water consumption and and what tier they're in continue the tier three rates at commercial industrial multif family double outside rates and of course we'll charge whatever Durham County charges for the in the Der Durham County.

Service area the proposed rates cover our operating budget paper performance heo funding debt Elite replacement fund general fund transfer Watershed protection maintains all of our debt Covenant and maintains all of the adequate operating reserves for the utility as you can see these are just the small small increases we 40% 40 cents for the service charge on water 43 cents on sew the sewers service charge and small increases on the consumption charges this is what a typical bill so if you're a tier one customer your bill will go from 2681 to 2817 a tier five customer will go from $240 up to $256 on a monthly basis so we we've gone back to water and donuts we last year we were ice cream so can back to water and donuts but this gives it an illustration of of you know what what that means so if your customer if because I I go to Costco and I see all of the bottled water still flying off the shells and shake my hand shake my.

Head because you can look on the left you can see how much a deal Durham water is and we we think we have some good tasting water in dur well speaking of which because I like to make sure people know how cool Duram is we were rated the best water in the state correct we didn't not this past year stop right there I don't want to hear the other part we were last prior to this year but we didn't enter this year this past oh we didn't enter okay all right right gota so we're still riging Champs right basically okay we will be entering this coming year last year because of all the work at the the dam and we were stirring up a lot of water near the intakes yeah we didn't want to enter so we didn't want to break it but now we'll be entering now that that work is done so we hope to be back in at least metal this coming years all right terms.

Dope and that's a depending this also shows the for a commercial account whether you have a 58 in meter a 1 inch meter or a 2 inch meter kind of what the cost increase would be on a monthly basis proposed rate increases 6.1 which is under the 6.2 budget guidelines we do climb very quickly up in 7.9 7.9 and if you look the five years after this based on the the rate model it shows we'd stay around 8% this is very typical of all larger cities in North Carolina they're having anywhere from 8 to 10% increases aasa is proposing a 15% increase which is what once again we don't want to be in that rate shot kind of because they have not had an increase in the last two or three years and now they're doing 15% so but you can really see the impact from previous years because of Jordan Lake but you know comparison with all the cities this is the a dashboard that you can go online and look at the.

Environmental Finance Center at UNCC School of government this is a comparison of 4,000 gallons on our water bill and it compares to the all the utilities in the state that have more than 25,000 accounts and if you look at the dials our a bill comparison we match up really well with all of the other utilities we still send a really strong conservation signal we still have a good cost recovery signal and I think the most important dial is the one in the lower right hand corner which is the school government recommends that for a water bill to try to Target to keep it under 1.2% of the mean household income in your community and we're at 1.1 so we're beting on that if you want to you Chang this around so if you look at the Council of governments in our area and just looking at the where we stand if you look at the bill we're almost at the bottom end of the scale compared to the average bill of.

$84 not quite a strong conservation signal as the surrounding Utilities in our area because we have a lot of smaller utilities now that have to have to have a really strong conservation they actually have a different rate for the summer to help Drive their consumption down because they don't have the facilities to treat that much water so they have much higher rates during the summer and then the affordability of course is still below the 1.2 what the difference between those two those two charts you just showed so the the one okay this the this one is the 25 if it you selected the number of accounts so if you're comparing Durham to as you can see you can you can select up here you select who you want so we pick Durham and these comparing to all the other utilities that have more than 25,000 accounts and then it then it gives you the results whereas this next one is you know triangle Council of government area you.

Can do it by river Bas and there's several different options that you can choose for comparison group if you if you'd like and then finally just if you're you know what a 4,000 gallon consumption monthly consumption compared to other cities where we stand and you can see where aasa is right now and if they have that's this is where we are currently so compared to what AA is going to hit next year for 15% it's going to be pretty significant so with that any questions thank you all right thank you Mr gy all right thank you all this this is great work is it's overwhelming but it's it is it's really good you have a huge portfolio and thank you to you and your team for for managing it all right thank you well thank you for your support because this doesn't happen without all of your support starts with the manager's office and then comes to the city council and it's it's been tremendous since I've been director.

So thank you all right I oh I'm sorry so fast so under the affordability toab at the very beginning we were talking about the program that has expired and I have forgotten the acronym but I think you know what I W yes that's the one I was like I know there's W in there somewhere was that a was that a CO specific yes it came out of the state okay to help there's no there's no like comparable thing now that it has expired no but there are some we also tap into some of the local charities as well we connect with customers and they've been willing to help out okay but no like no funds available yeah no State funds right didn't think so of it yeah all right thank you thank you all right and our last presentation.

Com that's since it's going on now let's bring now Mr Williams could you as you're preparing just give me one second and Deputy city manager Ferguson colleagues we just going to take a break in the current program to just get an update on the gas leak situation going on it's a pretty significant amount but just want to make sure we update the public where we are on it thank you and thank you mayor I'm pulling up my notes give me just one second.

So just wanted to make everyone aware that around 2:30 this afternoon there was a fairly significant report of a propane tank leaking at 3639 Andre Avenue it's right where Andre crosses railroad tracks propane is a little different than natural gas it doesn't dissipate the same way Natural Gas G does in a leak propane kind is a heavier gas so it sits and because of that even though it was leaking out into the open air they had to the fire department went ahead and issued a half mile radius evacuation mov people out of their homes that evacuation I think went fairly smoothly according to the chief and everyone is out of the area the contractor who owns the tank has brought in contractors who are bleeding off the rest of the propane that is underway now and should be complete best guess is around 7 to 7:30 but that could be a moving Target Emer the fire department has done a press conference in the last hour so that information should be out in the.

Public Emergency Management is also pushing that information out there are a number of significant road closures Andrew Avenue and Marley Drive Glover Road and Clinton Road Andre Avenue and ran Road Ren Road and Stone Park Court are all closed and there are services I don't have an update on this but they are there are some coordinating services around people who have been evacuated I can get more information on that but I can assure you that they are coord they're communicating with the folks who are being evacuated if they need Services to to get them those Services that's something that Emergency Management is able to do that's the information I have right now there's not any known imminent risk but until all the propane is gone there is still some risk so obviously until it's clear they won't let anyone back in the evacuation Zone thank you so much for parents who wondering with their kids getting home late this is really screwing up transportation and school transportation as well as bus.

Service so yeah DPS did send something out through their entire parent Network that a number of bus routes have been disrupted as a result of the of the closure so that's right near Andrew driver that intersection it's a bit farther Beyond Andrew driver Andre yeah the the specific address is 3639 which I believe is probably about a half mile to 3/4 of a mile past and Driver yeah all right thank you so much right our last presentation thank you so much Mr Williams sure martinin Williams again with the public works department I will be brief because I know it has been a long day for all of you so today talking to you about storm water rates earlier with Transportation we're a part of that discussion because we are the project delivery arm for the transportation department on their projects but we also handle storm water in one of our divisions within the department so much like water management the storm water fund is an Enterprise fund we we self-supported by the fees that we.

Collect for storm water IT addresses number of programs and capital projects that we have specifically storm water management storm water maintenance and our street cleaning you can see below on the third bullet we have some of the capital projects that we are that we address through the storm water fund infrastructure improvements those are things you typically see when we do major pipe Replacements storm water facilities we also do quite a bit of watershed planning and projects are generated from those Watershed plans that become capital projects for us retrofit design work to meet the stage one rules for Falls Lake and the unba which you'll hear a presentation at the next work session about that organization and their interim alternative implementation approach which essentially is our way of completing projects to comply with stage one rules as they're currently written we also handle drain repair and City properties we do have a private drainage assistance program that we're responsible for through the storm water fund fund and flood plane mitigation key issues for us through.

The storm water fund we're proposing a rate increase in fiscal year 25 this is something that we've talked about in Prior Years and we're continuing with that proposed increase but I will say we're currently working with the consultant same consultant that water management has used with the finance department to update the storm water rate model so that we could have a better idea of what our really our spend will be over the next five to 10 years based on the capital projects that we're projecting both for ride of way and city-owned properties and also any potential projects that will come from Jordan Lake rules as they're Rewritten as well as Falls Lake rules as I stated a moment ago the UN RBA is they're Ono with their re-examination of the Falls Lake rules we don't know what that's going to look like in future years but it will have an imp impact on the fund at some point in the next 5 10 years that's to be determined based on what the rules are.

Rewritten the state and our 2023 mpds permit that renewal process has been completed so here there's a lot of numbers on this screen I will say the focus on fiscal year 25 because that's the rates that we're proposing as you get out to fiscal year 26 and Beyond that's where we're working with the consultant to refine those numbers to see what the actual increases would really need to be based on our anticipated Capital spend so when we come back next year through the budget process we'll hopefully have better numbers to show what the rate increases would need to be and somewhat similar to Water Management we'll try to keep them minimal but consistent so that we don't have those big up and downs that some other utilities have this is just to really give you a snapshot of current rates for the three different tiers in non-residential those annual increases will look like we tried to keep them minimal just so that we can address our Capital needs.

Where we expect to have a couple of capital projects that'll Peak over the next two fiscal years so tier one $9 annual increase tier two 1860 annually and tier three $37 so they're not huge numbers nothing compared to water management but there are increases that are needed to support our storm water management and here it just gives you a breakout of the accounts by tier and the revenue generated by those accounts so you'll see that while we have large number of counts in tier one and tier two non-residential covers generates the majority of the revenue for the storm water.

Fund and here's just giving you a breakdown with related to the unba with the iaia some of the projects that we're doing South Elby Wetland project which're is near downtown here it's a regional storm water facility that's the majority of the capital projects that we're taking right now but it's a variety of retrofits that we're planning to complete new technologies that we'll try out and some green infrastructure as well and similar to Water Management we Benchmark ourselves as a city against other cities with a full storm waterer Enterprise fund you'll see here with tier one we're somewhat middle of the group with the cities that we compare ourselves.

Against and you'll see here tier two on the upper end but still lower than Charlotte and norfol and multif family commercial we're near the top the top end there but we're still lower than norfol which given their location I can understand why they're at the higher end being coastal city with dealing with a lot of sea R which we don't have that issue but we do have a lot of commercial properties that have a lot of paved areas and this just gives you a history from 2010 through what we're proposing for fiscal year 25 you can see there been gradual increases over the years we ran several years where we flattened out rates because we just didn't have the capital spin at that time that we needed to address but now based on what we're seeing coming up in the future we've been trending in that upward Direction with consistent rate increases across all the tiers and as just to give you a couple updates South Elby storm water project site soil removal remediation.

Was completed in 2022 we're planning to go out for bid right now for actual construction of the Wetland so that'll be a project that you will see probably brought to you after summer break for Ward of construction if we're successful with the bid process as as I stated earlier we're working with a tell us the consultant that was used by water management and our finance department to update the rate model for the storm water fund and as I said I would be brief I want to thank the entire storm water management team for staying around today because I wasn't sure what direction this would go because storm water has generated a lot of questions lately but this is the team that makes everything happen on a day-to-day basis along with the employees up in the third floor and out at our Operation Center thank you all so much thank you as we can see just about every sector everything is increasing and and we have you know a land.

Valuation coming up soon and we need to make sure folks are well paid so that's why it's really important that we are holistic about our running our our operation here so thank you guys thank you just one just just one question I know for the for water to kind of clear the different tiers water usage right but for storm water I can you say like what the different tiers represent is that sort of like size of property impervious surface like how do you that's exactly it's impervious surface and I was trying to bring up the slide here so it gives you an idea with 2400 square feet of impervious surface that would be what you're looking at with a for equivalent residential unit and as you increase your impervious surface beyond that 2400 Square ft that's where it I'm trying to think of an easy way to explain the more the more paveed surface hard surface that you have in your lot the higher your eru will be.

Essentially and I just had a quick question about the teers as well so I we've got the three residential and then you've got non-residential but then in the graphs later the last graph says multifam and Commercial equivalent mult monthly rate that would be a nonresidential so it's a combination of commercial and some of the larger apartment complexes that's what I was about to ask so so they are on a different tier but but that cost gets passed down to Residents generally generally yes okay interesting okay all right thank you all right and the put items right that's it all right and there was the other.

Matters thank you staff thank you all for your patience and I'll try to keep it as brief as well just bringing this forward acknowledging that summer camps are full at DPR and I know we've talked about this a little bit at our Retreat and I wanted to make sure to bring it back I had conversations with some of my colleagues and the city manager she wanted to make sure that I had a chance to she had a chance to hear from us as a body whether we were interested in moving forward I know we provided this the support for the summer camp last year through ARA and I want to make sure that we don't lose those first those Rising first through fifth graders who were involved I think it was 19 students four parents and it was over the course of five six weeks and so the just being able to put that support in place for the children that live in that area especially with with it being near well.

Essentially the students moving or from corn Wallace being able to get out to the eastm neighborhood to actually get outside and play I think it's very beneficial and I want to make sure we don't lose what we started with those students I did make a couple of.

Notes think just keeping in mind youth engagement priority for the summer months this these are students who have experienced a lot of gun violence in their community and in order to reduce their summer learning loss of address some of that trauma that they face spending time with Coach D like many folks in our community who provide services to students I think it would be a really great way to make sure we're we're demonstrating just what we were talking about earlier today and you know trying to give folks hope and knowing that you know our front yard matters and then what was something but essentially it's just the the the heart of champion program with the education 360 and so I just wanted to make sure that we get around the table to see if folks could be supportive for this summer moving forward with a 41,000 for the summer camp all right go ahead thank you and and and we did have a conversation at The Retreat and no no one at all is.

Questioning the Merit of the of this camp and the impact it has but I as I recall I think the council has spoken on this issue and when we when we first approved the funding I think you use the phrase what we started we weren't aware that we were starting a Perpetual funding council member Freeman the council extended you a courtesy I think it was at the end of a meeting you brought this up and in a rather kind of untraditional way for us but in extending courtesy to a colleague did it that year and I think the conversation at our Retreat this year was that the the the arguments that or the the points that make this Camp so worthwhile really applies to the all of those camps in that category and that it would probably be best if we established some type of fund that would have an RFP process and all camps could apply for rather than just earmark this particular camp notwithstanding the the impact and.

Great work it does nobody's questioning that but the first time we did it was a courtesy to you at the end of a meeting not real no one I don't at least I didn't think that it would it it was meant to be a recurring thing that and that to be better from an Optics point of view from a fairness point of view to other camps that if there were a fund that this camp like others could access that that would would be the way forward and I think that was the decision at least my R remembering decision of the council at the budget Retreat aside from that I mean if if I mean I think any one of us have any number of issues I certainly have mine that after the council has spoken we could just bring back and say hey can y'all take another look at this and I think we all have those issues but I think the council was kind of clear on this and that the best way.

Forward would be to have a fund that many camps could access as opposed to just this one recollection I think I missed some of that I missed some of that conversation and I think the point or the push was to try and get that Fund in place and since that hasn't happened thus far I don't want to leave this summer on the table for those students and so yes I agree it's not an ongoing I don't think it's something that we would do every summer but I do think that we haven't had a chance to get to that point and in the intrum it would be good to move forward for those students we have been working with through the education 360 and so I wouldn't I wouldn't just extend it five years out I think it would be great to have a process in which all camps have an opportunity to participate or all folks who have ideas around what camps could look like could could participate but in the.

Interest of this year this summer I know that we have not gotten that far and so I wan to I don't want to lose that it's not too late I I'll partner with you I I'll I'll vote for 100 grand right now and say if we want to set up a fund for so it's not too late to set I think that would that would be enough first and then I I know that there than 41 but I know that there are students who would like to be in camps and so if we want to do a a a real program that actually encompasses some so that we can get more of the students in I would love to have more numbers on who's on the weit list like I want to really make sure that it's something robust and and it's not going to happen it's not going to happen where you have locations and everything lined up this is a program that does have that in.

Place already so March is the time frame where where parents are looking for summer camps that's where they're trying to make sure that's the last time like that's the latest if you have children you've already identified where your where your children will be for the summer that's not that's something you wait until you know April May June and so I I don't want to lose any more time or lose the opportunity to to provide them some relief knowing that they will have somewhere to be this summer everything you articulated about numbers and what we to know is precisely what we didn't have the first time we did this out of a courtesy to you so so we we actually didn't have any of that and we and we we funded this Camp I think the point for us you know because it's taxpayers money we didn't intend on making this something imp perpetuity or or repeated we can have we can set up a mechanism whereby this camp and if if.

All you say is true and I know it is about this Camp it shouldn't have any problems getting any funding from this fund but it also insulates us from saying that we've cherry-picked this particular initiative and once again they're going to get taxpayer money first time as a courtesy to you that then we're kind of codifying it when we could capture them and others and insulate ourselves from looking like we're picking oh I just it's a win it seems win-win to me I appreciate that I just want to be clear it's not a courtesy to me the camp is an opportunity for the community yeah I get that and I I don't get anything from it I don't gain anything from it lose anything from it my kids aren't going to this K like it's not a something for me right this is actually something for corn Wallace which is you know as someone who who repeatedly talks about you know supporting those kids that jump.

In a tub I think this is a good way to jump to to actually support those kids that jump in the tub by courtesy I meant that you asked us for the money at the 11th hour with no paperwork and we did it that's what I meant by courtesy out of respect for you that's a li first of all there was paperwork there's been plenty of paperwork there was a whole presentation that was given there was all there was a budget that was delivered there was a whole pres like a whole lot of information that was shared you didn't give it to us after the fact it's not a lie it wasn't before it was before the fact that was offered to you all thank you all all right council member thank you this is more just broadly I so there's been a couple of other requests that have come through I know the M Museum of Durham history I think manager PA you meant something about legal aid wanting more funds I.

Don't know know what what process they're coming through I know don't wa sturum has a couple asks and so I was just curious out of process you know sometimes we take up those little bits of extra things and and just was wondering when as a council we would take those up thank you so certainly you know there's not perfect systems for requests to come in as we are putting together a budget though we often are you know we certainly at this time year are putting together a budget for next fiscal year so for the fiscal year that's going to again July 1 July 1 and it is it is true as we are getting requests from nonprofits or others we're Distributing those request to the Departments that would be most most able to review the proposal and provide a recommendation in the manager recommended budget but it all of that would be for July one fiscal year 25 really so I know that the Museum of Durham history requests has been routed.

Appropriately if I have these requests coming through don't waste Durham which is just two requests I will just send them on to you and then you'll make the distinct and then we as a council would ultimately make that decision at some point so anything that we haven't seen up to this point for next year's budget we are still working on next year's budget certainly the Departments that would evaluate new initiatives have already submitted those new initiatives at this point we have already reviewed them but anything that comes in we're going to we're going to send it get an analysis get a recommendation from whomever would be best suited to you know evaluate the proposal and determine how you know how it might rank in what we're trying to bring forward we're not saying we're we are approving everything that comes in yeah yeah I'm just trying to get a process try to understand where to Route it right our yeah so our best way of getting you know.

That type of Direction because we have a whole lot of proposals that came in through departments that they're they're not going to be in the recommended budget because in order for us to set the pr in order for us to deliver on the priorities that we have right now we we we we can't open the door in that way but certainly when we had the budget Retreat and the council collectively agreed to have us consider these items those items have been part of us walking up to the de up to where we are today okay anything coming in now okay thank you to I'm open to doing if if other folks are I think that council member Freeman I think yeah I think there was part of the that day that you were gone I think there was a there was a conversation on this seems to come up every year you know we don't we don't have enough spots in in camps that are affordable for families like I remember when and I.

Think you probably do too you know fighting for the Durham parks and wreck spots when our kids were younger and it really is like the lottery you got to get up at least when I was doing it to get up and get on at a certain point and sign on and it was a lot of stress because you know I love the museum Life and Science but they're Camp are expensive so so I guess my thing is I'm open to do we want to do a small pool of money for this year and then know that it's a conversation that we are all it's the same coun there's no election for next year right so it's the same Council so that I guess one of my requests is to C is to to council members this has now come up twice and so I would love to see somebody just submit a request to council for 300,000 or 4 whatever it is so that we can have it at the proper.

Time I think thank you Williams to Mayor prm's point I'm fine with 100,000 I know it's not well I know it's obviously not enough but it is at least in the in the right direction thank you I would just ask if staff would think that that would be a doable possibility for this summer because that's the concern for this summer I think for December I can definitely make sure that that's on my list to make the request but I think for this process coming from December of last year this was the only one that I had received and so that was the one I brought forward yeah thank you for that I think I mean rfps or rfps if there's not other people who can apply and they can't meet the requirements and they don't apply I meant for for the for the students this summer time frame for them to put out the RFP and all of that oh I see what you're saying okay thank you again this is March thinking.

Thinking with your you know signing up for camp haton yeah we kind of late yeah this is one that I initially wasn't wasn't sure on I needed more time to sit with it and also I think philosophically I just I want our Parks and Recreation to be able to provide all the services directly from the city as as possible I know that we have limitations just on our ability to hire summer camp summer camp leaders it's per it's Personnel that that that limits us and so my hope is that longterm we scale that up and in the meantime I change my I I support this summer camp I also hear the mayor prot's points I think there's that there's validity to to those and I'm open also to to sort of a general pot that people can can apply for and you you know submit submit requests for for existing funds I guess for me longterm I'm hoping you know that we can scale up things directly through Parks and Recreation systematically.

But for now I support council member Freeman's request got you I I just want to make sure we're clear on what we're doing here we are Rel litigating what we've already talked about this is nothing toward that single Camp but also again last year when we did this at the very end of the meeting and I I want to be very clear this is not about a particular camp this is about our practice in the precedent that we're setting and last year right after this happened we had another organization come up and say well you gave it to her I need 50,000 to fly kids across the country and since that we've had other organizations to come so I think the best practice my prview is to set up that fund and I I'm pretty sure we can make that happen but I just want to I want everyone to understand what we are now literally doing so I whether you support something or not that's fine but just know the precedent that we're.

Setting as a council is we can go back and pour things back and and what bothers me most here is how many organizations youth organizations that have this same description of need is going to come to us and say well you did it for that group XYZ and I just don't feel comfortable with that but I want to make sure we're clear what we're doing I just want to say I appreciate that that that's really no no because I want to make sure that we don't send any mix Mis misinformation this is not just any any organization this is the organization that received the arpa dollars last year and we had we had conversation and I submitted a request this is not just any organization and it's not last minute it's been I went through the process this time and so I'm going I'm I went through the entire process don't try to act like this is a new process this is this is the same camp that came through from last year.

Last year last year when it came forward as an item there wasn't support I went back and asked the camp director to reformat the the way in which she made the request and to add more information and then she made the presentation it still didn't get support and so I don't want to I don't want to do revisionist history but just know that there was more information it didn't just show up at the last minute at the counc meeting the conversations were ongoing those emails were coming to all of the council members I just picked it up I just asked the questions and I actually pushed for the for the organizer around it to actually provide a better proposal so I'm just bringing that same proposal from last year forward so yes if you don't support it that's fine I understand but this is not from a new process this is one that's already in place that that's not that's not what's in question that's that's not.

At all and and when we did discuss it last year it was at the end of like it it was not I remember this very vividly and last year was wait what you know it's like right at the end of a meeting and we I remember looking down down the diet I was like whatever all right we'll do it this time this time it was you did bring it up further or earlier which is fine that's fine I'm I my biggest thing is I want to make sure that we understand that we are prioritizing one single Camp over many and what I prefer to do since we are the government is actually create a fund where everyone could apply for and I'm actually taking a private approach to that as well so I just want to make sure we're clear what what we actually doing but go ahead so this is maybe a question and also suggestion but if we were to think about the summer camp fund for the following fiscal year.

We still are going to run into the same issue next summer because we're not going to have time to put rfps because we're not going to have a passed budget by that time right okay yeah this is the question so any anything that gets approved for July 1 of 2024 to June 30th of 2025 the money will be in the budget to start as early as we want we can start in January we can start as early as we want because it would be approved as part of the upcoming budget that's for next summer right but if we don't have it in the budget now that's correct then when we come up to need to do an an RFP in the spring we're not going to have money set aside for it because it would be then for the budget that following July now what we what no what we're talking about right now is this fiscal year we're in we're in April of this fiscal year for a budget that.

Has already been adopted last last year I understand that so anything that needs to get a contract executed needs to be in the budget for the year that we're in or we need to be directed to find the funding for that some other source because we would be proposing if we proposed the fund in the upcoming budget and that fund got adopted it would be available July 1st but that Summer's almost over so it could be so we can do an RFP on something that is theoretically going to be adopted into the budget that summer it's for next summer it's right so this is my question and and I and I think we're saying the same thing and so this is I'm getting a little bit confused but if we do something this summer for Heart of Heart of Gold Heart of no heart of the champion I don't know where I got that from okay heart of the champions in not somewhere as a placeholder which I am I am also on.

Board with doing then I'm wondering when we need to talk about if we really are serious and it sounds like everyone on this board is is serious about having a summer camp fund to which people can apply when we need to get that in the budget in order to start rfps that are going on in February and March of next year supper I think we have to put it in this budget in order for the money to because we can't have an RFP if the money's not already in the budget is that correct so so there will be there will be things that are in the recommended budget that I will be recommending in May that you have not necessarily seen you will be seeing you will be seeing those recommendations coming forward but when the budget is adopted or you put things in the budget or you take things out of the budget of what is being recommended that money will be available and on July one but the summer this.

Summer will almost be over by then and and and what is being requested right now is we're council member Freeman you're asking for funds for this summer so and here and hear me out I'm not trying to argue but this was the issue last year and that was why I had to do it the way I did it because there's no timeline I can't do December request yeah it doesn't it doesn't that's what that's what council M cook is trying to point out it doesn't fit so I did it the way you asked from last year which was to put it into my budget request and make sure that it came through the process and it didn't get the support so now you're asking us to reconsider it yes because this this this summer is here it's already here and we're already moving forward so it's not even just it's not even just the request for the for the next year's budget it's a request for this year's budget but it's it's the.

It's the easiest way to cover what we already what we did last year because I because there was no platform there was no runway for the for the organizations to come in all right okay there I just want to say there are there are I don't want to send a message that there are no summer camps out there either I know we're talking about this one specific one but there are hundreds and I just shared that publicly as well that are in the city of Durham and surrounding areas that provide free free services many are and here's the thing I used to create that list when I was at Durham children's initiative and I have to tell you that those camps are full because it is March I mean it's April now but I mean when we when we're talking about this it's March okay question yeah so I have a clarifying question so you're asked for right now because your you're asked for funding is for summer 24 is to allow our city.

Manager to to locate funds for okay so that is the request thank you because I was confused so then the second question is for mayor protm was your convers your thing around like putting money in a little bit of you know a little bit of money would that be for current are you saying moving forward because this it does matter because yeah this I I we were at a budget Retreat for next year's budget and I thought all the conversations were gerain to that I didn't realize council member Freeman was asking for money for this Summer that was that was the same thing last year well but and to your point last year again at the end of a meeting this was brought to us now if there was any process that occurred before that meeting and and it was turned down then what essentially happened was as a courtesy this Council overrode a process and did it which means that after the it it exhausted the process the outcome was.

Negative and we turned it into an affirmative that's what I meant by a cur to and we extended to each other and I I will always extend courtesies to my colleague so this year because we were in a budget Retreat my understanding is that those conversations were gerine to the budget at no point at least did it seem to me that we were talking about an ad hoc or specialized request for a fiscal year we were already in that would have changed I think the nature of the conversation so I for me that's still puts us because it's not related to the budget we're working on for 2425 still puts us in a specialized ask once again for a particular organization if so yes I support a fund for it next for this next budget I don't know how to speak to once again this this ask for this year for this particular Camp not with no you know their merits notwithstanding but to the Mer's point you know we had folk come in.

They saw us do it and then they said well you did it for them why don't you do it for us that too is the same is the same issue we have this year as well so I mean the Optics of it I just don't think are good for us yeah and I guess my thing and I I'm just trying to understand how to line everything up so I guess my point is even if we did start a fund for next year to council member Cooks point it doesn't line up when we actually need it for summer right like yeah it doesn't line up for this summer but it does line up for next summer the money isable I got right because then they run an RFP process in the fall and then pick our people and then people can so I guess my question it goes so there's two basically there's two there's two Financial asks one is for a for a current adjustment or finding of.

Whatever for now and then the second is and and I'm just going with what I heard I might be wrong to Mayor prm's Point potentially setting up something like I heard $100,000 I'm gonna say it which we would add to to to kind of grow this Camp fund starting in the fiscal year 24 25 on July one is that essentially right yeah okay thank you so we're there's a request for funding one specific camp that wasn't budgeted for in this year for this summer so manager PID we have to go find that and then create a fund for next year so that we don't have to have this conversation of picking out one organization and I will say this if we're going to go forward with this I'm going to request for several other organizations to do the same because that's just where we are that's going to be phisically irresponsible and I I just I really feel bad about just I what it seems like we're now pitting one youth group over another.

No we're not that's what we're doing that's exactly what we. Doing so just just noting like this was what could be put together from last summer it's not that any no one else could do it then anyone could bring forward any proposal they'd like at any point in time there's no prevention from that happening there's no I've never said I wouldn't take a proposal from someone else like that's not like what I'm saying is it's an open process it's always been an open process this is something that's happened for years before any of us were on Council and anytime that an organization feels like they have a great support for children in our community I want to encourage them to bring It Forward if it's something that we can support at $40,000 I think we should now if if there were an onslaught of of projects like if it was like a onslaught of proposals that all came in that'd be something different and we would have to pit some.

Against the other but I think that the that the what we're suggesting today with the P process would provide an onramp that has not been in place for those organizations to submit and then to go through the process so that we can end up at the same space with multiple camps so it's not like I don't I don't think it's a pick one against the other okay if anybody had submitted if any if you had received if the city manager had received or any council member had received any other summer camp I think it would have come forward that is not what happened Dewan Langley has been asking every almost every meeting you know summer camp I've not heard that request and I've I've also told Warren to submit a proposal with a budget I've I've said that to anyone who is asked me do not I don't you just can't come to me and say give me $10,000 that's not how this works show me what you're going to.

Do show me how it's going to work and then show like show it show me the budget and I will ask the city manager to take a look at it if she agrees she agrees and then I bring it forward to counsel all right well that's my process that's my process okay if I might Mr but but if an organization is is fortunate enough to have an influential friend on his board who after they were told no through established process still advocates for them at the end of the meeting and they get the money anyway that's what's different about this I do not know coach D personally I do not I what I do know is the champion the the heart of a champion program I do not know this person personally this is not a friend of mine don't know me this is someone who submitted an email and I picked up the email and asked a few questions because of my experience with some account and if I might finish my.

Point but what whatever the machinations or the backstory is you still felt compelled at the end of a meeting to ask us as your colleagues to give them $41,000 which we did however you arrive there via email via an encyclopedia size application whatever it is this organization had a council member asked for them at the end of a meeting when we were about to adjourn and they got the money that's different that's just different I think you're I think you're misremembering because the heart of a champion was a presentation that was email to all of us and we said no no we didn't say we didn't say no you said that was turned out earlier I'm saying is when it came forward no one was interested no one said no but no one was interested I asked more questions I asked for more information and they actually put together a better presentation and then shared it at a council meeting all right okay sounds like are there two motions I'm I'm confused where we are.

Yeah I'm not entertaining any motions right now it's just the just whether or not we would like to move forward with the summer camp for this summer and if and to Mayor protm and Council m ciera's point whether we wanted to bring forward a fund so that we're not in the same position next next summer Madam manager do you based on your comment earlier is there is there any capacity for this in the budget coming up next year so in the budget coming up next year we are still working to develop a budget that is balanced and it will be it has been worked on by the administration and it will be report it will be recommended on in May with all of the details that are there as it always is and it will have things that you have seen in it it may it may have things you have not seen in it but it is there for you to deliberate and decide what you want in it at you.

Know at the time so whenever you say is there a capacity to add a fund we're always listening at the community we're listening to elected officials on ways that we can help solve issues that we may not have had in our budget proposals before and we will continue to do that certainly it makes it easier for us to have pools of funding and allow a process to occur so that we can have a way to allocate funding that is not going to be sized enough to fund everyone that we did that for our for our events that's an example I bring up in this in this space the council decided to put a pool of funding aside and have a process and allow folks that are doing events cultural art type events compete for those for that funding and and award it and it has helped us you know in sort of navigating that space certainly whenever you have pool of funding and you ask for request for proposals there.

Has to be somebody on the other side that manages the process and so that's you know so no matter how many funds we create or how many pools of money even though we may not be doing the work ourselves we still have to actually do the work to put the money out on the street award the contracts and then monitor the nonprofits that are doing the work so it's you know it's a big it's a a bigger picture than just putting a pool of money aside but we also know that there are needs that we don't always necessarily think of we're thinking of water or we're thinking of some of the other you know core services that we do so when it comes into our space we don't ignore it so that was a long a long response but you will very likely see us propose a fun for summer camp we know that our camps get get you know full all right we and we will likely see that thank you can you say.

That can you say that again Madam manager in in the proposed budget you'll very likely see us see us propose a a pool of money to have supplemental camps that the city cannot cannot provide ourselves and you will probably see that in the recommended budget I don't think that's just exactly resolving what you all are discussing here I just want to I just want to make sure that you do have directed support or understanding from Council of whether there is support for the summer for this summer for a heart of a champion and I did want to make sure that I gave folks in opportunity to let you know because I think that they let you know by email but you wanted to know you wanted it to happen in an open meeting and so we're in an open meeting and this is the opportunity for folks to let you know that they would like to support a heart of a champion in summer camp yeah this summer thank you and I.

And as the facilitator of this board I also want to make sure that you know we went through this process and we gave our greens our yellows our Reds and what we're doing is re litigating one item all right so if we're going to follow a process then we're going to follow the process so where's the process One Moment One Moment and we had that process doing the Retreat and you know I we have our personal views on certain policies I think we still should have shot spotter that's just something I think but we are we don't agree on that and majority of you felt that we needed to let it go and I have my personal reasons why and that's the conversations I have with residents so do I bring that back up and have us relitigate it because it didn't go my way because that's what's happening right now and what's worst about this also is it's one particular summer camp and for my new folks on.

Council in fact not in the email whatever happen in email is in an email but in an open session this did come as a request right at the end of a meeting and literally the next meeting we had someone asking to fly kids across the country for track and then we had others and I just do not think that it's a really good practice not not determining the quality or the type of program or activity this is and I and I I know that there's been you guys have had convers conversations you live at each other that's fine that's what we do but I'm want to make it very clear this is not a good practice as a council it's just not okay and I'm and I'm going to go ahead I'll answer a few more questions but we're g to bring this to a close right go ahead I just I don't have a question I just want to say one thing which is that this is this is a conversation about potential Direction.

And the manager gets to make that decision about whether it comes in or does not for the budget and so to me it feels distinct because it's not we're not making policy decisions we're really just saying if there's support we recommending something or not the city manager gets the last say on that it sounds like there's tons of support for this fund moving forward it also feels like because of the the way that our fiscal year breaks up in the middle of the summer that we've sort of Gotten Trapped a couple of times and I'm not going to say we cuz I was not here but that's what it sounds like it sounds like there was there was want for this this need in our community right to to support summer camps and then we sort of because of just the normal cycle of the budget sort of got stuck last time where we like did a summer camp and now we're going to have a gap year before we.

Have another camp and so for that reason I I am in support of just having that expressed I I would like there to be an option for a free summer camp this summer again Madam manager can decide with that as it as it fits or doesn't fit in the budget it sounds like there's tons of support for the following year for there to be an application process but I just want to express my support for that simply because of where we are right now we are having a gap and so that is my concern may I just real quick also there there's there's not a gap there will be programs this summer there there will be excuse me there will be a gap of having this particular Camp added into the budget and the budget was balanced last year and what we're doing is we are making an exception and we're the manager would have to find the money like she did last year and then she the.

Reason why it's not a good practice is because she found $43,000 last however much it was 41 she found it and then she had to go and find another 50 and I'm looking at the water cost I'm looking at the salary raises and I know it's under 100,000 but every penny is going to count and it's going to require us to have really good practices I'm thinking about the sticker shock that's going to come in the land valuation thinking about the county and their taxes the fact that there teachers that are making less than you know just there are a lot of factors that I'm considering here and our practice matters so exactly that's why we're trying to have a fund.

Right these are these are the kids who have to endure that traa right can you show your mic on as we took that tour of that location I made it very clear that it's not it's not because it's one camp or another it is specific to to large families that live in that neighborhood who do not have the time nor the effort to they're not getting into the DPR can't they're not they're not getting in that's happened a number of years if your response to systemic disparity is processed then what you're saying is that those kids don't matter and I'm trying to point it out again because it's going to happen again where you're where you're sending the wrong message to children in our community this is a K through five camp for children who get the chance to get out of their neighborhood where gunfire is every day and play outside I want to be really clear my career was built on these streets I know exactly what you're talking about.

And I could don't forget where you came from never and don't forget where don't forget what we have out here and don't forget what these kids are Bing I'm GNA ask you just like I respect you to say what you got to say without cutting you off I'm going to ask you to do the same I know exactly what street should talking about and I can tell you about 10 other camps just like this right here in this city ex why would why would you be why would you be punitive to the camp that did come forward ex excuse me now I'm being respectful and we're having a conversation late in the hour but I'm just making it very clear that the the verbiage that we don't care about kids is really dangerous that's really dangerous and there are a lot of things that I want to get support for as well a lot so I know exactly what demographics we're talking about I know exactly what kids you talking about know.

What exactly what neighborhood you're talking about but I just it is up to us to make sure that we have a practice that is acknowledging kids in this community and it's unfortunate that yes we're going to put it in the budget then it needs to be in the budget but what we're asking for is we're asking for us to unbalance this budget currently and find funding for one Camp as if there aren't a lot of camps that are in need and we have some folks that call in here all the time that are asking for funding it's just it's really really really a bad practice you know so I just I I that that's where we are right now and I just want to make sure we are clear on what we're asking for can I ask what's the bad practice I just want to know what you're meeting the bad practice because because I followed the process and I did exactly what you asked from last year and now we're at the same.

Juncture again and there isn't a fund for this summer so what's interesting is now we don't know the process that's what's intered to me right now and we and colleagues I'm going to get us out of here but the process is you make a request and we do the same process we went through this year and this was a part of that process it did not get enough votes and you're asking us to relitigate that now I don't like the timing of the process and I don't like the process so you know what I did I went private and so now I'm actually getting private support to support multiple organizations whether you like the T-shirt idea or not but at least I have an organization a nonprofit that's going to actually I have an organization that's going to sell t-shirts I have a nonprofit that's going to hold the funds and having that same nonprofit is going to actually administer funds to many organizations because I don't want to put organizations against one another or.

Kids against each other so what you're saying is the process the the process it wouldn't have matter what the process is you weren't going to pick the cam because it was one cam I'm I'm I'm confused I'm trying to understand what the process is supposed to be so I I tell you what we're gonna we're going to continue this on and colleag you vote how you want to vote that's your accountability we're going to move this I I guess we're moving something we've already voted on to the agenda to vote on it again no no we're not voting here today but I it's I I don't know I you need direction or something Madam manager so one of the things that we need to do one of the things that you you all know about me is I like for the work I am doing and the work the staff is doing that is really is outside of any process that it be directed to me by by the City Council in the public space.

Because we don't just go and find find money we have to have a source of it so at the time that you talked to me about doing something this year that was that is not in the budget then I am going to tell you where it possibly would be coming from if you approved it this year so that is what I would do all right thank you and and it is it is it would be up to you to find the funds as far as how we spend money in this city that would be up to this Council thank you Mr Mar thank you colleagues I I I first I want to say you you are six of the most brilliant and passionate people that I know in the city and any any suggesting that any one of us doesn't care that's going to be a losing argument every time for any one of us for all of us up here secondly I want to say just from a a matter of.

Process just clarify the record when we were engaged in this conversation about the the 40 Grand fit this camp we were clearly doing it as part of budget negotiations for next year we were holding up green red and yellow car and no one thought that we were considering a request for 40 grand for this year no no one because we were within the context of budget deliberations so I'm a bit confused as how we now somehow mistook budget negotiations for the next fiscal year for request for this year so that that that's that's I'm I'm befuddled by that because we were clearly at a budget Retreat it was on the paper and and that's what people were watching on television our budget Retreat for next year so that's first point secondly and and I'll end with this I want to be very clear about about the manager's relationship with the count because barring blatant illegality the manager does not have veto power over the council we are the final Arbiter of.

Business of the city the manager reports to us and we are fiduciaries of the city if we direct the manager to to spend money then that's binding outside of blatant illegality so the manager is not resit for us the buck stops with us if we say get this money or find this money or pull it out of fund back balance then it is so and if we say don't then it won't be so she doesn't have veto power the office doesn't have veto power over us and there's no area in which we cannot insert ourselves or or or effectuate our will so I just want to be clear to those watching what the relationship of the manager is to the council when to say that so yes we can direct if we want for this money to come up and if we direct it there's no a pathway for her to say no she'll fund balance or whatever or we can throw ourselves into deficit or or or out of.

Whack we're free to make mistakes as a council and make bad decisions no one can protect us from ourselves and that is my final Point protecting us from ourselves the Optics of this one Camp are just bad Optics so I would support I'm definitely going to support the fund and and and council member Freeman and the mayor are are you're both right about what we need for our young people nobody's not caring but to the mayor's Point process matters and our integrity matters and looking like we're not favoring one over another matters it matters because we're going to need that Integrity when we need to make other decisions moving forward so yeah and and you know to the mayor's point I mean I if I had known this was going to be our process we would have been been talking about shot spotter again I would have brought it up but the council has spoken and and when we speak it should mean something and we shouldn't make each other feel.

Bad for pointing out that it should mean something when the council speaks can you you keep saying the council speaks did the council speak yes at the budget Retreat we held we said we don't want to do this you said you don't want to do this I missed that everyone said they don't want yes we said we don't want to do and but we also said that we supported cman Freeman a fund because I was under impression that was on hold that was what that was what red yellow green whatever we were making decisions it was a red is what you're saying council member Freeman yeah so we did we did a first round and a second round the first round the yellows the ones that got to Yellow the first round where it was undecided the second round so the second day whatever March 1 we took all of the ones that didn't move forward in the first round if I'm remembering correctly and and you were not in the.

Room at that time and at that point there were not four greens for the camp and that is when just so if remembering correctly it was brought up again around if we're going to do this there needs to be a fund of some sort because we people felt like we had to be careful around public dollars being you know again to the whole it's why we run RFP processes for a lot of our service contracts and things like that which I know you're well aware of but that was how it moved forward that day and at that time to be perfectly candid I had not thought about it being this year at all I was thinking down the road so it isn't until today that I I I realize that the request for the $41,000 is for this current fiscal year and then I'm glad to hear that it was heard around the broader conversation of we do need a fund for summer camps this has come up a couple.

Years now in a row so that is my recollection of it and I'm just saying because that was that was the process that was asked for at the last last year there was a whole lot of you know I didn't hear about it I didn't know and so I went through the process that was laid out which which is why I'm saying if we've gone through the process which is to make sure that the camp was was was held or essentially making sure that those children were covered for this summer there was no way for me to do that and process I understand you're saying I'm just saying that I don't want it to be a punitive thing because the city manager could still find the dollars and do that this year that's not that's what I'm saying so it's not like so because I put it in the process it doesn't mean it should be discounted for this year because those dollars are available and we do have have general.

Fund balance and we have arpa dollars that are still available so it's not like it needs to knock us into a deficit this is not like it's $2 million it's not like we're like there's a hundred different requests this is one request based on the conversation we had last year about this time around summer camp and at the LA at the budget meeting where everyone what you keep saying is that that was it was last minute and you heard it last minute so I wanted to make sure that the city manager knew that there was support for summer camp this summer but you realize that the process was for NE you've been doing this as long as I have you realized that was for next year I'm sorry everybody hold you did follow the process you did it just didn't pass but not that it didn't pass is that there is no way for those for for that conversation to even occur because that's not that's not the way.

The timeline is set up no we we talked about it no I'm talking about you guys were talking around for September or or for it to happen in in October or what to happen in December that would have had to happen already there was no way for me to get into that I me technically speaking what would have had to happen is January of 23 you would have had to bring it up then that is actually what would have had to happen and and and and that's to to get it funded in our current year because any conversation we're having now jary 24 no January 2023 because budget right so it didn't get it it didn't get brought up in January 2023 right and so then it came later as a request and so then it got basically last minute funding to get funded and partly because of how we do our budget because our budget is not based on right just right it doesn't line up so now it will line up but to.

Council member Freeman's point it doesn't solve for her problem for this summer around around this camp that is essentially that is essentially the Crux and there isn't a way to to do that like this right well there is but what what what mayor Williams is saying is that we shouldn't use the process or we shouldn't do that I think that in general there's not and now we're getting into it there's not a process there's been very few other than there's been a few fund balance asks over the years but in in in general the process to bring something up during a cur a current fiscal year and fund it is very limited there's just not a lot of opport reason and I understand that so I'm saying that your ask doesn't line up with the way we do things and that's not bad or it's just what it is right and so all I'm trying to do is solve for the thing in the future so that we're not in here.

Again that's all I'm trying to figure out because your point is well taken and I'm glad to hear from the city manager that they are realizing that again summer need it came up last year too because last year was going to be around the schools working with the city and it came it was like May when people really started trying to wrap their heads around it may is too late so I think everyone here understands that we are solving for the future problem it doesn't solve for the current issue that you're raising and I don't know what that step looks like and so I'm going to stop talk thank you I appreciate that yes one very quick question which is when does this Camp occur does it happen in July and June okay June July and August 10 weeks of sum yeah okay thanks well it would start in June what I will what I will offer is as I'm building philth rampid you know relationships there's not GNA the.

Timeline it doesn't allow for you to just what I will offer is as I'm building filth Ric relationships I will ask if this is something that some you know there are a lot of folks that are just I mean 40,000 is not a lot of money no it's not and I want to be clear this is not about the amount this is our principle and our practice but the practice puts the children at the back no council member it it puts and that's the only reason I keep bringing it Forward is because it's for these children right and specifically these children in this neighborhood who we know are traumatized and and and I and anything we can do address it I want to make sure we try to do so I'm G I'm gonna keep bringing it forward that's fine but I I do think that we should right I no you're fine you can continue bringing it up you brought it up during the budget process it did not.

Give through along with some other things that I wanted to get through we we've chosen one item from the from this year to bring back up and everything that was on that sheet was for the upcoming fiscal year what you're asking for is for this fiscal year and because that was what you laid out that was what you asked for in the last right and you follow that process it just didn't get P yeah it just didn't get get didn't get enough votes so what we what we're doing now here today is you're asking us to override and reconsider well it was it was only because because a number of council members said they wanted to revisit it so I wouldn't have brought it back forward if if council members didn't say they wanted to look at it again said anything even if it had been passed it still wouldn't be for this year because we were in budget negotiations for the next year but that's what I keep trying to say is that.

It's not for the if this Council decided that they wanted to do a summer camp this Council can make that decision regardless of whether it's in the budget or not and the city manager would find the dollars just as as mayor Williams mentioned what I'm saying is I wouldn't have brought it Forward I wouldn't have I wouldn't have made it a revisit situation if folks didn't say well we should bring it back up because there's there's still conversation around it so how do we how do we say no to something we didn't know we were talking about what do you mean because we thought we were talking about next year that even if we had passed it it would not have been money for this year we didn't even know we were talking about this year Council Freeman so even if it had passed and and mind you it didn't pass so all of all of the arguments that were made that it didn't pass was was done you know with purity of heart quite.

Honestly because we didn't realize you understand what's happening so on one side you're saying it's it's it didn't pass because it was in the budget but on the other side is it doesn't fit in the budget no I didn't say so it's either one or the other either it fit in the budget or it didn't and if it didn't fit in the budget then we need to make a decision on whether we want to move forward because that is what that's what before that's what that is what I'm bringing before us even when you were in the room you didn't tell us it was for this year I didn't tell you everyone everything that we discussed at the budget retreat was for the upcoming fiscal year what we're talking about now is something totally different so so the agenda item that I brought forward was for summer camp for this summer and that that wasn't you can't no just okay colleagues if there are no more comments I'm going to bring us to.

Close oh Madam. Clark good evening Council I I have a very short report and the participatory budgeting steering committee appointment to appoint a resident to fill one vacancy of the participatory budgeting steering committee representing the atlarge category there is a three-way tie we got to be kidding me no I'm not and you can V to well it there there three individuals who have been voted for No One received the majority okay did someone receive a majority somebody has a majority of three votes change mind to that one okay all right so it's Raven Smith all right is your nomination thank you all right we are jining mad manager about to hurry up ready to go so Mr Mayor Miss mayor Pro 10 members of drum city council for your consent agenda that will be items 1 through 19 and for GBA public hearings that will be items 22 through 24 thank.

You the so I today well today we today you requested a you requested funding for a camp this year the summer camp that we discussed that did not get passed was for the upcoming fiscal year right so this is all new does have right it was it was it doesn't have a number it wasn't it was just a topic of other matters.