so much. Hello everyone. Welcome to city hall. All right, let's get right to it.
Calling the meeting to order at 1:00. Madam click, please call the role. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Williams, >> I'm here. >> Mayor Prom Cabayero has received an excused absence for today. Council member Baker >> here. >> Council member Burrus >> here.
Council member Cook >> here. >> Council member Copac >> here. Council member wrist. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you so much. All right. I want to start with council member Kopac. Any announcements?
>> Um, council member Baker. >> Just hello everyone. Thank you all for being here. Look forward to the meeting.
>> Thank you. Council member Bur. >> Same. We were just here maybe a couple hours ago, so nothing has changed, but happy to see everyone.
That's a really good point, Council Member Chris Cookook. >> Thank you, M. May. Good morning, everybody. Good afternoon. Um, yeah, not not much new happened since like one
o'clock last night. Um, but it made me think, you know, um, this is our last meeting before the holidays, so I just want to say to all the staff here, especially, I want to say a big thank you for all the work you do for us every day. Um, we demand a lot of staff and we demanded a lot last night. We stayed here till one o'clock.
Um, and I think you do a lot of work that's often unappreciated, not seen always, and I want to appreciate what you do every day. How you stand up for the city of Durham, work hard, even without all the accolades. I really want to appreciate that. Wish you all the best for the holidays.
Look forward to a great 2026. Thank you all. >> Thank you, Council Member Cook. >> Thank you.
All right. Um, no announcements here. I will get us get us going. Mr.
Manager, >> good afternoon, Mayor. >> I am so sorry. Uh my wife is Lily. I provided a gift for everyone. Um for you
all, you should have it in your office or either in your seats. That's just a little holiday gift from her. Um some sauce and truffles and stuff. And to staff, I think she sent some treats over to you all as well.
" And so there you have it. I'll um let her know that you all I did my part. I I delivered. So >> thank you.
>> Y >> All right. >> Now. >> Now. Yeah.
Okay. Uh good afternoon, mayor, members of council. The city manager's office just has one small priority item and that is for the item uh number 11, the update on Forever Home Durham. There's a presentation uh that was recently updated.
So, if you're viewing it on your devices, you need to hit refresh. Uh we just made some uh corrections to the names of developers on slide 10. And uh down payment assistant loan information was updated on slides 18 and 28. So, if you have a
dated version in your packet, you'll want to update that to make sure your slides match the presentation. Those are my priority items. >> Thank you so much, Madam Attorney. >> Good afternoon, Mr.
Mayor, members of the council. Good to see you. The city attorney's office has no priority items, no close sessions, no requests. >> Thank you, Mr.
Mayor. I have the board and committee and commission report. the cultural advisory board appointment. Um the two nominees are Emily Win Eninger and Robert S.
Frolley. And for the human relations commission appointment, we do not have consensus. We have three votes for Pea Guo and um two for Leticia Graham and one for Shannon Salatine. And Mr.
Mayor, I did not receive your vote. >> Actually, okay. Well, we still do not have consensus. Do you want to put it on GBA? >> Yep. >> Okay.
>> Unless anyone wants to change. >> I mean, I would be fine changing my >> Okay. All right. I will make that change.
And we do have consensus and Pog Gao is the nomine nomination. >> Thank you. >> All right. Thank you.
I'll now read the consent agenda. >> All right. Item number one, Durham Cultural Advisory Board appointments. Number two, human relations commission appointment.
Number three, contract SW104 sidewalk repairs 2026. >> I'm gonna pull this and also the next two just as a whole. All the sidewalk ones. Yeah. Number four, contractor S SW104C inspections for sidewalk repairs 2024 bond referendum. Number five, contract
which is which has been pulled pulled. Number five, contractor SW105 sidewalk repairs bond 2024 bond referendum and pulled by Council Member Cook. Number six, resolution accepting amendment number one to the North Carolina Land and Water Flood Fund Flood Risk Reduction Grant Contract CT 21819 for the South Elev restoration project. Number seven, contract amendment number two to BR103 C, Bridge Professional Services.
Number eight, contract Not a name bridge professional services 2025. Number nine, street and infrastructure acceptances. Number 10, resolution accepting a 392,495 drinking water state revolving fund emerging contaminants study principal forgiveness loan. Number 11, update on Forever Home Durham, which is a presentation. And number 12, parking program overview, which is a presentation.
and uh the upcoming uh public hearings which we'll discuss on Monday the next meeting January 5th consolidated annexation 5502 Wake Forest Highway number 14 consolidated annexation Sage Brook town homes and then we'll have citizen matters uh at one uh all right so we just have items three four and five pulled by council member Cook um >> you got that matters. >> Yeah. And did I have anything else pulled out of that number? >> Okay.
Any others for those the presentations? Number seven. Uh number seven has been Is that a resource person? No. >> Okay. Is that a resource person?
>> Yes. >> Okay. I was looking for that category. All right.
Three, four, five, six, seven, >> three, four, five, seven. All right. Uh, so we have all items pulled. I mean, um, items three, four, and five pulled by Council Member Cook.
Those are the items pulled. And then we have two presentations. Uh, I'll now, um, go to our citizens matters. And I'll start online.
Mr. Hughes is in person. All right. Um, All right.
Miss uh Angel Doer, can you hear me? >> Yes, I can hear you. >> Welcome. You have three minutes.
>> Thank you. Um I want to address the president name being set here with regards to Not a name. Um have been been trespassed and prohibited from attending um anything in uh city hall for two years. Um because that not uh personalities or optics is what matters.
Equating a single brief verbal expression of descent to the January 6th insurrection is not just inaccurate. It is dangerously misleading. January 6 was a coordinated violent attempt to overthrow the federal government. What occurred at city hall on December 1st was neither violent nor coordinated nor an effort to seize power.
When elected officials collapse those distinctions, it weakens democratic norms rather than protecting them. I am equally concerned about the process that followed. A two-year trespass from city council or city hall,
the people's building was issued without transparency, without public discussion, and without the knowledge or input of multiple council members. Decisions that restrict civic participation should never be made quietly or deferred to administrative authority as a way to avoid accountability. That is not good governance. We also need to talk honestly about decorum.
2 million luxury condos are being sold downtown. Calls for decorum ring hollow when we witness you Leo Williams limit your colleagues comments during the work sessions and Javier Cababayera roll her eyes when colleagues are doing their job with respect to the needs of the people. That contrast tells us exactly whose comfort is being prioritized. Discomfort in a public meeting is not violence. Dissent is not disorder. And naming material realities is not a
threat to democracy. It is a part of it. I want to be clear about something else. Assertive speech from a black woman, I'm a black woman, is routinely mislabeled as aggressive or egregious.
Conviction is not yelling and passion is not a public safety issue. If we're serious about equity, equity, we cannot pretend that race and gender are irrelevant to how speech is policed in those chambers. Children were referenced repeatedly as justification for this action. I believe it is far more instructive for young people to witness democratic descent and to learn that disagreement does not warrant banishment than to be taught that authority must be questioned.
The policies based in this building shape housing, access, wealth, displacement, and survival. Those impacts are far more consequential than a moment of spoken descent. So the question before this body is simple. Will Durham protect free? >> Thank you, Mer. That is your time.
>> Or will it uphold democratic participation even when it is inconvenient? >> Thank you. That is your time. Next, Miss Not a name.
Not a name Not a name, can you hear me? >> I can. Can you hear me? >> You have Yes, you have three minutes.
Welcome. >> Okay. Good afternoon. Um, I just wanted to echo exactly what Miss DOA just repeated.
Um, but I'm going to hearken back to December the 1st. It is appalling to hear council members, even those that are leaving the dasis, refer to the citizen and the taxpayers as a disease because they are in they are against things that this council has been doing. I've heard you, Mr. mayor on several occasions applaud efforts that are being done in Washington and all of these fabulous places that you are traveling to and how the public how the
public is addressing their concerns as it relates to government and the things that they have concerns about, you applaud it. But the minute a black woman comes down there and just verbally states how she feels, she's been trespassed for two years, that is very problematic, especially when you spoke last night and referred to it as a January 6 similar to January 6. And also Javier referred to it as a peaceful power, a peaceful transfer of power, which made me believe that it was sounding real trumpish last night between the two of you. And then when we talk about the quorum to sit and watch these meetings over and over again and watch how you you and your colleagues roll their eyes at other colleagues that don't agree with you and then you also decide that you're you're going to take the opportunity to silence them too. It is very problematic. You must remember that you're only in that seat because
the people of Durham allowed you to be in that seat. So city hall is the people's house. It is not Not a name house. It's not Javier's house.
It's not K R's house. It's not Matt Kopac's house. And I believe that this effort that you've taken on, the three of the two of you along with the city manager and the city attorney was done in retaliation for Miss Wallace. and we will stand by that and we will fight this to the end because this is a miscarriage of justice for a citizen of Durham who only came down the city hall with no threats to just voice her opinion.
So, thank you for letting me speak today. >> Thank you. Next, I have uh Miss Amanda Wallace. Miss Wallace. >> Madam clerk, do you see?
>> Can you hear me now? >> Uh, yes. You have three minutes. Welcome.
>> Okay. Okay. So, hello. My name is Amanda Wallace and I live in Durham and I'm also the founder of Operation Stop CPS, a grassroots campaign whose long-term mission is to abolish the family policing system, which some people call child protective services.
But there is a growing body of research and language from people directly impacted by the system that more accur act um actively uh characterizes the system as policing and control. So when I say words like abolition, right, I understand that I get labeled as radical. So I'm no stranger to activism suppression. I'm no stranger to the government using its power to silence me and anyone else that expresses dissent.
I'm sure this city has talked to the county and understand the tactics that they have also used at the county to um to suppress my voice. So here we are. The city of Durham has sent me a notice trespassing me from city hall for two years because I
expressed my belief openly that Matt Copac bought the ward one seat. And just because this truth makes some uncomfortable, that doesn't stop me from having the right to say it. The quorum goes out of the window when people are dying because they are unhoused in Durham and freezing to death. the the quorum goes out of the window when people can't eat because the city finds thousands of dollars to light up a baseball field and because they want us to believe in in what what it is this holiday.
So like let's let's just stop it. This trespass notice prohibits me as a resident of this city from redressing the government from coming into the people's house to express to express my grievances. This city has absolutely lost its mind if it thinks they have the power to do that. But now that this, you know, decision is being challenged, Leo, the mayor, wants to throw Not a name under the bus. No,
you you don't get to just do that. Bo Ferguson is hired by the city council to run the day-to-day operations of the city. Not a name can't make this decision on his own. Vote Ferguson doesn't have the power to make this decision regardless of what your policy is saying.
So I challenge that today I am asking on the record for each city council member to state whether they support this trespass order or not. And I'm also requesting that this city drop and resend this trespass immediately. Every day that this stays intact. It is a violation of my rights.
And I'm just gonna s I'mma put that out there. I would highly recommend that this city rescend this immediately. And since I have not heard the buzzer, I am I want to lift up Kimari Morgan, which is a child that died in the custody of Person County right next door. This is all connected and is the reason why we cannot be silent in this moment. Every descent is our right to voice our
concern to the government. >> Thank you. That's your time. Miss Not a name, can you hear me?
>> You see a Sharon Not a name. Not a name. >> She's been unmuted. >> Miss Not a name, can you hear me?
Are you uh unmuted on your end? four. >> She's not responding, Mr. Mayor.
>> Okay, sounds good. I'll move to Inerson speakers. Um, I believe I have this right. Reena Galper or Reena Kalper.
after Miss Kalper will be Donald Hughes. >> I press the button on the right. >> Yep. On the platform of it.
>> There we go. >> There you go. Welcome. You have three minutes.
>> Thank you so much. Um, so first of all, I want to support Not a name and I also want to give a shout out to the council members who spoke in defense of her right to free speech and her right to descent. Um, this concerns me deeply as a Durham resident for almost 20 years that we have somehow decided it was appropriate to silence the voice of the people and to privilege landowning and land selling and luxury concerns over the people who actually struggle and work and support and love Durham day after day. Um, it just concerns me that democracy is on the line and so is the integrity of you,
Mayor Williams, and those who are really supporting the suppression, the eraser, the gentrification of Durham at the expense of those of us who work hard to make Durham a place that is welcome for all of us. I also am agrieved that Not a name Williams is not the Ward One representative. I believe that she should have been. I think she represents the FE people far better than the person who perhaps had more resources and managed to pull a narrow victory, but that's just my personal opinion.
Um, and I really hope that you all do better. Not a name belongs in here and so does everybody else who loves and supports our city. So, thank you so much. Good afternoon.
You have >> three minutes. >> Yep. Good afternoon, council members. I come before you today deeply concerned about the actions of a majority of this council to restrict the free speech of
residents and even your fellow council members. This is not just a procedural tweak. This is a question about whether this body is committed to authentic public engagement or committed to controlling disscent. Thank you council members Cook and Burus for speaking out yesterday in support of free speech and against the actions by the mayor, mayor proim, the city manager and the city attorney that resemble the authoritarianism we are seeing from a wannabe dictator in Washington DC.
But we as residents here in Durham, excuse me. What makes this especially troubling is that there is a contradiction between how some of you speak about civil disobedience elsewhere and how you treat it right here at home. Many of you praise protesters in Raleigh who participate in the Moral Monday movement and challenge our state legislature and applaud those in Washington DC who protest threats to democracy. But when residents right here in Durham show up to 101 city hall plaza, the people's house, you condemn it, you call it disorderly, you call it disrespectful, you call it lacking civility and decorum. The same behavior that you
celebrate elsewhere suddenly becomes unacceptable when it's directed towards you. Let me be clear about protest itself. In a democracy, it is not only a constitutional right, but it is our civic responsibility. Democracy depends on the people's ability to challenge power and demand change.
And for those council members that attempted to gaslight us last night by comparing the protest on December 1st to the January 6th insurrection, it is really disgusting and disingenuous. I also want to address recent comments about limiting the time council members have to deliberate. This council does not exist to serve itself. This council exists to serve the people and the residents of Durham.
Even if a council member has asked staff countless questions beforehand, the public deserves to hear those questions in a public forum so that transparency can live and accountability can live. Residents deserve to hear how our decisions are debated and made on behalf of the residents. Silencing deliberation is simply another way of silencing the people. When you limit council member speech, you limit the communities they
represent. And in my experience, those who ask the substantive questions are usually the ones who've actually done the reading and done the homework. I must also note the painful irony that one member of this council often speaks about fleeing Chile for because their family had no voice. And that story does matter, but it's difficult to watch that same council member now support denying residents the voice that her family longed for.
I know my time is running out, but I ask that one of you make a motion today to rescend the trans trespassing order and let us see where each of you all stand when this matter is put to a public v vote. As several of you have recently celebrated the no kings protest and Mr. Mayor, I've heard you tell a group of students that you're the most powerful or important person in Durham, I'll remind you, sir, that you are no king. Thank you. >> Thank you for your time. Uh, next Jen Wickman and followed by Rafiki Zid.
>> Is the mic going there? >> There you go. >> Yeah, I got it. to sit in city hall last night and listen to the verbal disruption of Matt Kopac's swearing in get compared to January 6th as we've been talking about is egregious and deeply unserious.
Um to be clear on December 1st I was sitting right next to Not a name. " No, she did not shout. She did not use profanity. She was not physical. Um, January 6th, as we have been reminded, was an attempted violent coup to breach physical barriers and prevent Congress from certifying electoral college votes. This wasn't that at all.
January 6th was rooted in white supremacy, in white Christian nationalism, Trumpism, and a big old dose of QAnon. This wasn't that does feel like what's next is calling Moral Mondays a January 6th. Except maybe this is different because it was a swearing in, right? Would it be impolite then for me to just note that at least two sitting members of this council donated money to Matt Kopac's campaign but apparently decorum calls for politely pretending you don't have financial or power interests in this seat and I repeat I just want to repeat at no time did I feel unsafe sitting right next to Amanda I did feel really unsafe safe by the guy in front of me whose name was Ran Baron who was a like
hateful and shouting. Um but I don't hear his name being discussed in these trespass talks. Um I did feel uncomfortable. Yeah, I did with Miss Wallace's disruption.
And why? Because I was raised in white supremacy, in politeness and respectability. And you know what? Politeness, decorum, respectability, they are steeped to the teeth in white supremacy.
They are the language. They are the symptoms and they are part of the disease of white supremacy. I do not buy into the notion that decorum and politeness are our most important and highest values. What about justice? What about growing as people? You cannot grow without discomfort, politeness, decorum, grace, and courtesy do not, can never, will never create the conditions for justice, for truth, or for liberation.
This council needs to reckon with that because we the people are tired of being lectured about decorum and we're not going to stop. Thank you. >> Drop the charges against Not a name. >> You're next.
>> Welcome. You have three minutes. >> Welcome, council members. I don't think I can add too much to what has already been said, but to watch a black woman after 400, let me put this on the table first. I am a minister of the honorable minister Lewis Farcon bite no bones. We are tired of seeing the suffering of our black women through a political and social exchange in the community.
You have opened a Pandora's box in this community. You got people getting ready to come in from all over the country to deal with a first amendment issue that shouldn't be dealt with. Your pride, your pride falls before a hearty destruction in this city. the recent actions taken against Sister Amanda, you will see that as thou has done, so shall it be done unto you.
No matter what sanctions, no matter what cease and desist orders or letters, no matter what bans, the people will continue to stand up. We have already formed a bold city council. We're getting the hell away from y'all because we are finding now that the endorsers and those who uh run this city have inordinate control over politics, religion, and the social movements in this city. They can put you
in Cadillacs. They can put you in Britneys. But as gatekeepers, we will no longer see you use our people, persecute them, and tell us that we cannot come to city council. You have brought on a mass demonstration coming down like a avalance.
So in my conclusion, I say this 1 minute and some seconds at this juncture since Durham city manager Not a name, we know you sat down with many of those before you signed on to this ban. We know that that's the way y'all work. And certain council's officials were in your conspiracy in collusion with the ban on Not a name. I believe of an old idea when I was running with Minister Faron, Fred Hampton, Not a name, Puerto Rican nationalist. I believe it's just a belief that we should form a boycott
on Christmas and New Year's in this city until that ban is rescended. And we going all out to see that this is done. We are going through the community and we are asking them in 15 seconds to follow our lead. We are tired of this.
You cannot continue this. You done it to Jackie Not a name. You done it to me when I was running for city council. You pulled my signs out the ground.
We are tired of this. May Allah bless you. Thank you for your time. >> First item pulled is item number three uh by council member Cook.
And I'm just going to leave it over to you for items three, four, and five. Do you want to speak to those separately or just collectively? >> Um, I think it's probably going to be the same folks. Is it going to be Are you going to be here for all three?
Yeah. So, that's fine. I'm happy to do all three. Um, I will say that the
closed captions are not on the um stream that's on at least on YouTube. >> It's on YouTube or is >> it's not the closed captions are not on the stream. Oh, >> work session. Okay, >> thank you.
>> Um, >> hi there, Amy Bllelock, communications director. We do not have captioning on the work session. Okay. >> Um, we just have it in the regular business meeting in the planning commission meetings because we use a live captioner for those meetings.
>> We are in the process of securing software that will allow us to provide captioning for more of the meetings. So, the work session will be captioned uh in the very near future. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Thank you, >> Amy. Does uh YouTube have a captioning feature? I know it's not as reliable as live captioning, but if if viewers are watching and they want to turn captions on, does YouTube have a feature that will attempt to caption? >> YouTube and Facebook both do have features where you can turn on the captioning um and that software will
attempt to read it for um the viewer, but we will have our own software hopefully in the very near future. >> Okay, thank you. Um, hi. >> Hello, Clint Blackburn, Environmental and Street Services.
>> Thank you. I just had a couple questions because um these are all three on sidewalks. Um, and unless uh you live under a rock, I guess you probably know that one of the things that we get from the most from public is concern over sidewalks and infrastructure. So, I had a couple of questions that I um I know the answer to many of them, but I just want to um have a conversation about them really quickly.
So, I was first hoping you could walk us through the um the uh prioritization of the sidewalks and what we look for and how often we revisit that prioritization. >> Absolutely. So, um, in 2021, we hired a firm to come in and do a entire survey
of all of our sidewalks within the city limits. Um, and then we, um, they found every single defect within those that our sidewalk network and we have listed on GIS. Um, and then took that and turned it into a defect per foot and called that a safety score. Um, so we have a safety score and then we broke the um broke everything down into FIP zones which are a subsection of census tracks.
Um, and we have a equity map that we use. So it's a safety score plus an equity score that ranks the fit zones um in order for us to repair. and um the equity map was updated um last year. So, we went through and rep prioritized everything. Um and then once um in 2027, we plan on doing another survey of the entire sidewalk
network. Um we're doing that for multiple reasons. One, we need to we need to see how well we're doing keeping up with the repairs needed. Um the original plan if we f keep following what we're doing um in nine years we're supposed to have repaired all of the defects within the city.
Um so we want to do that survey in 2027 to see make sure we're still on track and we're moving in the right direction and also to see how many new defects are going to pop up and so we can kind of get a idea of um how how quickly new ones pop up versus we're getting rid of the old ones. So it'll kind of give us a a good road map on how to move forward. >> So the the goal or we had assumed that we would be done correcting the um defects by 2035. >> Um 2030.
>> So we did the survey in 2021. We actually kind of got started with the program in 2023. So um
so it' be like 2033. >> Okay, great. Not nine years from today. Nine years from when y'all did the survey.
10 years from from when we got kind of started with um implementing the program. >> Okay. Um and then just curious about how the um the amounts are broken up here. So we've got two that fall under the bond uh referendum and then one that does not.
Can you talk about how we are breaking those up? >> Yes. So we um so we get CIP funds and bond funds. And so the bond funds we established that pri you know like when we were um asking for the bond we had we had created a list of sidewalks based on that prioritization.
So all the bond money is going towards that pre-list that we had the CIP money which was I don't remember um well it's however much was in here is >> 73. >> Yeah. So it's going to So there's a federal mandate that when we upgrade um
street facilities whether we repave it or micro or capesill or anything of that nature we're required to update the um bike ped fac or the the pedestrian facilities adjacent to that which really essentially is we have to update the curb ramps. So, um, we are spending that money on updating those curb ramps, um, adjacent to those facilities that we repaved. So, that's what that money is being spent on. So, it's, um, and then the the the second the the professional services one is for inspections of the bond and the sidewalk one and the curb ramp.
So, 104 and 105. >> Okay. And are we when we are upgrade updating the curb ramps, is that following guidance that we already had and it's just like fallen into disrepair or is it like meeting new guidelines? >> What's bringing that up to PROAG standards? >> Okay. And and are those have those standards shifted I guess since we did
those sidewalks? >> Yeah. Yeah. So those sidewalks are you know um were installed prior to ProAG.
>> Okay. So yeah, they they need to be upgraded to proag standards. >> And then just one other question which is that um I saw for number five which is the um the cons the contract with Brow Construction Company. That was the more expensive of the responses.
But there was some conversation that the other respondent um did essay hauling and utilities didn't meet. Just make sure I'm correct. They failed the good faith effort. Um but they we are contracting them with them also on a massive project that's on this agenda as well.
So can you talk about that good faith issue and why they were okay for one of our items and not for the other? >> Okay. So for 104
they so they they didn't meet the good faith effort for either project. Um be so for 104 that one went first and um it went through city manager office review and they determined that they could give it to them. They withdrew their request for um appeal before it went to the city manager's office review on 105. because they only had the resources to do one of the two projects.
So, they withdrew their um their uh appeal for 105. I I mean, I understand them only having the um resources for one, but I guess I don't understand what the good what the appeal process is. >> Okay. So, um, and I'm probably not the right person to to go through this, but so if, um, if a firm does not meet the the UB requirements, then they will go
through a good faith effort and then our group and finance um, they will review that and then if they if there there certain criteria that they're looking for that they can then pass the good faith effort or they don't pass. If they don't pass, then it goes through a rep appeal process where the um firm can appeal to the city manager's office to review that um view review their paperwork and then they can decide whether or not to go ahead and give it to them or to reject their bid. >> Okay. So, they have two kind of like two appeal.
>> They Yeah, there's two. Yeah. Yeah. So the finance office reviews it first >> and they have a certain criteria, you know, and then the city manager's office reviews it a second time if they choose to appeal it.
Most firms don't choose to appeal. Um in in the cases I've seen, I don't know if that's true. It's just the cases that I've been involved in. >> Uh this is the first time that it's actually gone to an appeal.
>> Oh, interesting. >> Um and like I said, the on the second one, they withdrew their appeal, >> right? because they just didn't have the resources >> and therefore we went to our second you know lowest bidder which was Brown. >> Okay.
Um and for my final question, do we have a cost estimate on how much it takes to build a mile sidewalk at this moment? >> New sidewalk or repair? Because >> do you have do you have both? >> So new side I mean off the top of my head I can tell you new sidewalk and that is well it depends on the complexity.
Um but it's anywhere from like $800 to $1,200 or sorry 12 Yeah. per foot. So per mile. That's um let's go with the $1,000.
So that's 5,000 about $5,000 $5,280 per mile roughly for new. Now repairs less than that. Um they're actually somewhat they're somewhat equal those prices. It's not much less for repair because with
Go ahead. >> Million. >> Yeah. A million.
>> I'm sorry. >> Yeah. " >> Million. Yeah.
Got it. >> So, do that again. 5 million. >> 5 million.
Well, I don't think it's quite it's uh >> No, I think it I do think it is. >> It's a million. Million. >> Yeah, cuz I think it was It can be higher.
>> Yeah, I know. I know it by foot price. >> I hear you. That's fine.
>> Could you repeat Could you repeat Could you repeat? >> It's $1,000 per foot. Could you repeat the the answer to her question? >> It'd be about a million dollars a mile, which I'm not >> $5 million per mile.
>> 5280 ft in a mile, right? >> Is it 5 million mile? >> Right. >> Okay.
2 million per mile >> for sidewalks. >> For sidewalks. And and council member Cook, I wanted him to clarify that my first vote that I took >> was I believe for 10 m uh no a few miles of sidewalk and I just couldn't believe
it. I think it was 2 miles and was at 10 million. Um yeah, about 10 million. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So yeah. >> Yeah. >> I just I feel like it's an important number that we should be talking about.
And you said repairs. >> It's a big number. The repairs are similar to that number because you actually have remove and replace. So it's a you know because you don't have the demolition on the new sidewalk.
Um, and like I said, it all for the new, it really depends on the complexity of the sidewalk. If it's, you know, if we don't have to remove a lot of um, trees or anything and and we don't have to buy a lot of right away, um, it's it's not as expensive. It's more down towards like $600, $800 a foot. Um, so it really depends on the complexity, whereas repair is pretty steady price.
>> Great. Thank you. Those are my questions. Let's >> I'm just gonna ask the same question.
Oh, sorry. Go ahead. >> Did you have anything that you wanted to add? Are you good?
You're good. Okay. >> I'm gonna ask the same question I asked in 2021. >> Um, now we're in 2025 in regards to the industry. Is there nothing else? Uh, any
other alternatives? Maybe wider asphalt uh over the rightway. Is asphalt cheaper than cement and concrete? So, so for sidewalk, concrete is the better material mostly because um once we put it down because concrete gets stronger over time um and you have less external forces pushed against a sidewalk than you do roads.
So, it makes sense to make sidewalk out of concrete because unless you have an external force pushing against the sidewalk, such as tree roots or somebody driving over it, um it can stay indefinitely. and it's only gonna get stronger over time. So whereas you put asphalt um if you put asphalt down a sidewalk, no matter how well you take care of it, you're going to have to replace it, you know, within, you know, 10 years or so because it just immediately cracks and then you have a lot more water damage and you don't have the subbase under it that you would normally. So, um, so concrete really is
the best, uh, material for sidewalks because it is expensive to put it down, but if you put it down, right, um, it can last indefinitely. >> All right. And I, I only ask because it's 2025 and, you know, >> I understand. It's a good question to ask.
>> You You would think that we found a more economically feasible way of some material that would be just as strong as sidewalk that wouldn't be so expensive. >> Not Not yet. Hopefully someday they will. >> Mr.
Mayor, thanks. Just to sort of maybe follow that or ask a different way. 2 is kind of average price for a while, right? >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. >> So can you if you think about a pie chart, can you say like what are the what are the major like like materials, labor, what like what makes up that cost?
What are the different pieces of that and what percentage of the total? >> So once again, we talking about new sidewalk or repair? Let's say let's let's go with let's go with repair for now. >> So repair the majority of the cost is in the um is is in the actual sidewalk
itself is in the concrete. >> The concrete. >> Yeah. Yeah.
The removal and replacement of new >> um >> and that's like 40% maybe or something. I mean labor's got to be part of it, right? >> Yeah. Well, labor is built into the price.
So it's hard to separate because we don't have a line item for labor. the contractor the contractor they they figure out what their labor is and they divide that cost over then all their line items. So it's it's hard to break out labor from the actual cost of the material. >> The major cost are there's there's labor there's materials and there's some probably some some overhead and some fixed%.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so like your overhead and your labor and all that's built into each individual line item. So for us now, we could work with our contractors and they can maybe give us a breakdown and kind of answer your question, but um but based on our line items, we we can't break out those costs specifically. >> Well, and then maybe like so so what what percentage of that cost is their their cost of sort of like preparing a bid to the city and going through that process? Like is there because that's
one that's one thing we control, right? Is it a pretty costly process for them to do that or is are there ways we can speed it up to make it less costly for them to apply and to sort of you know and kind of >> um well they so I'll just be honest with you they as far as I can tell they only really prepare the bid in about two weeks um so I don't think there's a huge amount of labor in that um putting together the cost you know especially because especially for our repair contracts because it's we're doing the same line items every year. So, they know they can do it pretty quickly because they know what they're getting into and they know what the uh they know where their price points are and they know how to like reporting requirements and once they've done it, they have to report back to us. It's you know.
>> Um, no, but we do track those costs per year and kind of keep a trend on it. So, because that's what we use for our estimate for the following year. >> I'm trying to think like Yeah. What like are the things we're doing that sort of make it more expensive, right? Yeah. So
yeah, >> I mean there's several things that um contribute to our higher cost, you know, and part of that is the insurance we require. And I'm not at all trying to say we shouldn't. I'm just saying there's certain things that we require um because we're a city, you know, and we care about the safety of our of our residents that there are certain things that we do require that does drive up that cost a little bit. Um >> like mean they're like they're somehow bonded to do the work.
like you know we require a certain amount of bond and stuff and and so like our projects are smaller than like DOT projects so our costs will always be higher than DOT because of the scale of the projects. Yeah, think about I don't know. >> Thank you. >> Absolutely.
>> I I look forward to the day that someone comes up with some invention that is much more cost-effective than I mean one mile of sidewalk is an entire penny in the tax base. >> Yes. Actually more. That's that's just
and we're we're sort of stuck in it, you know. So, >> all right. Thank you. Go ahead, council member.
Just one question. Um I think these are all good questions. I'm glad Chelsea pulled this. Um I'm just curious if we in in places where there are high pedestrian counts ever look at kind of uh incorporating some amount of maybe lowcost public art or printing or different kinds of patterns into the sidewalks. Uh we well so you know the downtown district has a certain amount of u has a certain pattern that they use um but outside of the downtown district we do not um although there has been cases where we've worked with general services um like they've come up with a program or somebody approached them that they wanted to do public art and we've um allowed that to you know I shouldn't really say allow but we've worked with them to to incorporate that. Um but um but there isn't any kind of formalized
uh you know artwork associated with the the sidewalk. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Are you going to go and create a new substance that like more innovative than >> in my free time I'll I'll work on that.
Be >> the wealthiest man alive. All right. Thank you all so much. Uh we'll move on to our first presentation.
Good afternoon, Mr. Mayor, members of city council. Carisha Wallace, assistant city manager, and I am delighted to be here today. Um, I do want to acknowledge a few people who are in the room. Some key people who are in the room and um,
they don't know it, but I think they've lined up according to who's been here the longest, who's the newest on board. Um, I want to acknowledge um, Dr. Michael Pulum, who has been with the organization for, did I just say quite some time? Quite some time.
um Bridget Stevens, Matthew Walker, Maggie Carnegie, who was uh on stage last night here in city council chambers along with Rebecca Rebecca Mixon and our newest addition to the team, Sarah Vinius, who is our director of housing and neighborhood services department. And so these individuals are here. This is not all of the team, but certainly these are the managers of the team. And so, um, I'm sure other, um, colleagues are listening online. Um, so I want to thank you for the opportunity to provide an update on, um, what is often referred to as our affordable housing bond as well as Forever Home Durham. Um, uh, pull up a
presentation. >> So, all righty. So, I also have to acknowledge um this work didn't this is not new work. Um this work began under previous mayors, pre previous city council, previous leadership.
Um specifically, the affordable housing bond referendum was passed by Durham voters back in November 2019. Um and that was under the directional leadership of Mayor um Shul and the city council at that time. and the um city manager at that time was Tom Bonfield. So uh since then we have transitioned this work from Mayor Schul, Mayor O'Neal and now uh Mayor Williams and then in terms of uh city management it was Tom Bonfield and followed by city manager Wanda Page followed by our current city
manager Not a name. So, I do want to acknowledge these numbers here. Uh, fairly significant numbers. When this investment program was first envisioned, um, the idea was to, uh, implement services and programs over a 5-year period.
Um, so I've heard some references made, uh, to we're almost done. And I think I should acknowledge that the work is not done. I don't know that the work will ever um, be done. The work continues.
However, there was a five uh year benchmark from uh the voter approval in 2019 um and and the things that the work that we hope to achieve in that 5-year period. These were the categories that were identified along with some of the descriptions and the funds that were allocated at the onset of this work. Again, November 2019. So, keep in mind these numbers reflect uh best estimates as of 2019. So I will go forward um and also want to show you the
income limit. So oftent times we talk about area meeting income and the income limits and who can afford to participate in some of the uh programs and services. So what we've provided here is a breakdown of um when we talk about 30% of AMI, 50% AMI, 60 and 80% and we're also looking at what those percentages were from 2019 to current of 2025. Um for those who participated or received a presentation um in in Austin around the affordable housing work happening there they had a graphic similar to this uh where we attempted to to I guess borrow that uh format that was in in in Austin but looking at um extremely low which is individuals whose salaries are less than 30% of the area median income very low and that range is there which is reflective of 30 at 50% of area to 30 to 50% area median income
and then low income and then moderate income. So again just another along with some um uh professions that uh typically make the salaries or earn the salaries that are reflected here on this chart. Um, in terms of the funding program, initially the idea was that the $95 million affordable housing bond would support those categories that I displayed on slide number two. Um, obviously conditions have changed and so over the last several years we have identified or utilized additional resources to leverage with the bond dollars.
So you will see here the 2019 bond dollars. I do want to point out bond program income is actually um income that is generated from a previous bond. So that was uh the previous uh affordable housing bond was with um Mayor Bill Bell and so that was the work at Eastway Village uh Frank the Franklin
Village was DHA property but Eastway Village area. So so that's what that bond program income um represents along with some other funding sources that have been a part of this invest this 5-year affordable housing investment program. Um so I do want to transition to um the work from calling it or nomenclature transitioning from the affordable by housing referendum affordable by housing bond. There was a a a firm that the city hired that firm's name is Not a name to help the city uh brand this bond referendum or this bond package.
And so that branding or the name became Forever Home Durham. Some people use that name, some people still refer to it as bond money. So, I want to acknowledge there was a fair bit of work that went into this branding. There was some bus wraps as well as some other promotional materials to make sure that the public was able to brand or associate this 5-year investment program with Forever Home Durham. Part of Forever Home Durham required us to um create some goals. So, again, to take
those categories from the beginning of the presentation and organize them in five different goal areas. And so, um, the purpose of today's conversation is just to provide, uh, the council as well as the public an update on where we are with the categories and the goals identified in Forever Home Durham. Um, I do want to shout out Rebecca who is um, certainly been helpful in creating adding some color to the presentation and working with Not a name to give us give us those logos. Um, so goal number one, I'll start with the goal was to create and preserve 2400 affordable rental units.
Goal number two was to move 1,700 unhoused persons into permanent housing. Goal three was to provide 400 home ownership opportunities to low-income households. Goal four was to stabilize 3,000 low-income households. Goal five was to create at least $130 million in contracting opportunities for minority and womenowned business enterprises. So, um
I it's important that we highlight or celebrate certainly the areas where we have exceeded our goals. And so, um even though Sarah has been on the job for one week, um she comes to us from the town of Chapel Hill and she said, you know, this is some great work. And so, um, I do want to acknowledge the work that has occurred in this space. As you will see, we've actually exceeded our goal in the, um, in the area of affordable rental units.
So, the goal was to create 1,600 new units and we created an additional 68, uh, units. And then there was another goal around preservation, and that goal was exceeded as as well. So, I'll show you the breakdown on how uh, those this is the funding source. So we did use primarily bond funding to achieve those goals, but we did in include some bond program income, some community development block grant funds which are provided to us by US department of housing and urban development as well as the dedicated housing fund which used to be referred
to I think half penny and then half penny became one penny and now one penny is two pennies. And so we utilize those funds in in this um category as well as home funds which also are provided to us by the US Department of Housing and Urban Development. So these are the units that affordable rental units that have been completed. So this list is organized by uh developer name in uh alphabetical order, the names of the projects.
Um and then we've also uh categorized or organized it based on the units that have been created versus the units that have been preserved. Uh we've also highlighted the number of affordable units included here. Uh as well as the funding amount and funding sources that are contributed to each of these projects. So these are the units that have been completed.
Um these are the affordable rental units that are under contract. Again, organized in in the same fashion. So, these are not completed yet, but are under contract.
Um, followed by the ones that are in the pipeline. As you might recall, um, DH you've had a couple DHA items that, um, have come before you. Uh, the villages of Hat have actually come before you as well. Tribute Rising was scheduled to come before you, but that item um, has been referred back.
I do want to highlight two RFPs that you'll see here. 75 is essentially half of that pilot allocation from that uh chart that I showed you with the categories and breakdown so we have not um the plan is to issue an RFP RFP has not been issued yet. Um, but we would like to find or identify a partner who can help us um with developing a strategy around units
that we know are going to be coming on board or coming available nearing their ending of period of u period of uh affordability. And so we'd like the city would like the opportunity to be able to take advantage of those units that will be um hopefully not going into the private market but being become available um to us. And so we also are planning to issue an RFP around preserving more uh rental units here in Durham. So these are the affordable units in the um pipeline.
Goal two was about uh moving individuals and families into permanent housing. And again have to acknowledge the work that the team has done here to actually exceed the goal. And when I say the team is not just the people who are in this room, it's not just the people who uh work in city government. Primarily we rely very heavily on the partners in the uh community. So this goal was exceeded by 334 uh individuals and families. And so this um uh work is primarily funded by a
dedicated housing fund. Again, the the two pennies along with uh some federal funds as well that you'll see included here. And then when we look at the um actual partners that are helping us to advance this work, they are listed here along with the name um of the project. I do want to acknowledge um the community safety department.
Um prior to the reorganization, this work lived uh within the community development department and was managed by community development department. After the reorganization, the work stayed with the city but transitioned from community development but to uh Ryan Smith who's director of community safety and some of the staff who used to be in community development but again as part of the reorganization have transitioned to the community safety department. So this work continues and they are certainly making progress, great progress in that area. The city uh has a goal around home ownership opportunities and uh this is
an area where we um have seen some challenges. Uh the goal three was to expand home ownership opportunities by providing uh 400 affordable homes for low-income buyers. And so this was kind of alluded to last night during the city council meeting. Um I think council member Riss asked some questions about what's going on in the market.
As we all know, housing prices have changed drastically since the bond referendum um was adopted um was approved by by the voters. And so, um that change in market certainly created some um limitations on our ability to have people participate in that program. I will say under the leadership of former city manager Wanda Page, the original subsidy for first for uh home buyers in the program, I believe was $20,000. The decision was made at that time to increase the subsidy to up to $80,000. So, um there was some some work done in that space which I was not a part of but certainly was familiar with the
conversations happening at that time and that was the amount that was identified based on what the um housing costs or housing prices sales prices were here um in Durham. I will tell you that um we have been fortunate to be provided two fuse fellows um in the housing and neighborhood services department. One of which is focusing on promoting our down payment assistance program which I'll talk um a bit more about that. So again the funding allocation for the home ownership opportunities primarily bond dollars but also dedicated housing fund.
Um so I mentioned our down payment assistance program. Uh we have certainly noticed an increase in participation um these 12 that are in the pipeline. These are 12 that have been in the pipeline just in this fiscal year beginning July 1, 2025. Some of the challenges as along with uh market conditions and and sales prices um some issues with credit. So,
and obviously with the the impacts of COVID, some people were even more challenged with uh being able to afford a home. One of the things that uh Dr. Pullman and I have had conversation about and and advanced in this down payment assistance program, we certainly know that there is a need that there's also a need to help people repair and address credit issues before they uh start this home ownership um process. And so, we'll be doing some more work around that.
but then also the work with the fuse fellow to help promote the down payment assistance program within the community but also within our organization. Um, anyone who is interested in participating in the down payment assistance program, the details are on the housing and neighborhood services website with lenders who have already been trained on how to navigate the city's down payment assistance program. I do want to highlight a partnership that community development and now housing and neighborhood services has with our general services department. Um these are lots that the city um owned and the city uh I think in
partnership with general services issued an a request for a proposal to identify developers who could build um homes for potential home ownership opportunities on these lots that were previously owned by the city. And so these are the partners who are participating in um that program again for the purpose of increasing home ownership opportunities here in Durham. These are the one these are the uh home ownership opportunities that are in the pipeline. You'll see villages of hat here as well as well as a partnership that we have with Habitat for Humanity Beaming Beaman Street assemblages in the southside area.
And then for the goal of low-income households stabilized, this is another area where the goal has been exceeded. The goal was 3,000, but we have uh exceeded that goal. And so uh the dedicated housing fund is a large the largest source of funding for this particular goal area. And um this is
where the work is happening. And so the um I know that that there's been a fair bit of public conversation around eviction diversion as well as HOPWA. And so you will see the activity that has occurred um with stabilizing low-income households within these categories. There was an item that the council approved last night uh for our substantial rehabilitation program.
Habitat for Humanity manages our minor repair. Um and then the substantial rehabilitation program that is going to be managed by preserving home. So again you'll see that uh majority of this work is done by our community partners. So we have to work very closely with the community um to help us achieve and meet the needs of our um residents here in Durham. Goal five was around minority and womenowned business enterprises and creating opportunity there. Um, I will say that um there's a breakdown here of the uh race, ethnicity of
businesses that that were supported. Um, and then these are the contracting opportunities that have been um provided or created as a result of this of this investment. And so these projects again are listed in alphabetical order along with the number of contracting opportunities and the MWBE contracting awards as well. Um I do want to acknowledge that in addition to the other funds that have been a part of this work um there have been some projects that have benefited from our dollars um let's see um approximately $12 million and so these are the developments.
So, some of you might recall some of these items coming forward um a couple of years ago. I think much of this work um was advancing during u Mayor O'Neal's tenure ear that was earlier in in the pandemic when these arbor funds became available. So, this is listing or breakdown of some of them are creating new units and some of
them are preserving existing units. And then um this is just a snapshot again of Forever Home Derm organized by the category u with the goal and the pipeline and what's under contract. So just another depiction of the information that I have shared. Um Sarah suggested that we include some pictures.
Don't just talk and give your words but let you see what it looks like. So thank you Sarah for that suggestion. So here's some before and after pictures of some of the work that has occurred um in this community. the developer here um of Ashton Place which is adjacent to our transit center downtown as well as Willard Street Apartments um and um this developer is DHIC in partnership with self-help uh and then Brian Place the developer here is CASA these are during the construction and then after Cedar Trace Apartments the developer is Taff Mills Group before and after
Commerce Street Apartments. This is a partnership with the Durham Housing Authority and Lower Street Residential. So, um, that work is underway, but we've included the concept design, but you can certainly see what's what it's looking like right now. And then Dillard Street developer again, DHA, DVI, which is their development arm, uh, during and again the concept design.
So, more work going on at that site. Harriet's Place. The developer of this is Reinvestment Partners. And then Maple Creek Apartments, uh, also known as Ross Road Reinvestment Partners.
Uh, the Acadia Crescent Drive Apartments. The developer here is also Laurel Street Residential. Not a name, uh, used to be JJ Henderson, now the Joyce developer, DHA, Lower Street Residential, The Vanguard, Elizabeth Street. That's before, during,
and after. Again, DHA and Lower Street Residential. So, um, these are some of our our key partners. Um the um 5-year investment program essentially um Durham Housing Authority has been a large partner for providing the units um for a unique population u clientele that they serve and so we certainly rely on that partnership for those units to be produced as well as other partners who are listed here.
who's not listed here that I want to acknowledge is um the previous director of the community development department that was Regginal Johnson. Regginal was part of this organization for many many years. Um and Regginal um provided the leadership when this affordable housing bond referendum was adopted. So I definitely want to acknowledge Regginal and the work that he did as well as the other staff um who were here who are not here in the organization. Um so and then there was
also an affordable housing implementation committee and so the committee isn't listed but over the over the years the affordable housing implementation committee was um created specifically to provide some type of oversight and gu guidance on this um bond package. So that is um the overview. I will say that um the focus around financials, you'll notice that this presentation did not focus a whole lot on the financials other than what's been contributed to the project. Um I believe that as we go forward, particularly as we navigate the budget process, we'll be having a more detailed conversation around uh what funds um are available for affordable housing going forward.
But I'm open to any questions. >> Thank you so much, Council Member Bur. Hello. Just a couple quick questions to follow up on.
Um, so it pertains to goal number one. Do you have a timeline for us on the RFP process when you plan to like just what that looks like? We can
expect um more details about that >> on uh Noah. >> Yes. >> For Noah. So, um I would say we should be able to have that completed within the first quarter of 2026.
I think the original goal was to was aiming for uh January, but um I don't we won't we will not make that. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And then my next question, sorry I wrote these on different pages, so it's going to be my problem at this point.
Um so then also in thinking about wait sorry the um lowincome household stabilized is there any opportunity to um provide folks with emergency rental assistance? I know we have eviction diversion program, but just thinking about sometimes how once you are in the court system, it's like maybe a little bit too late for folks. So, how do we prevent or is there opportunity to prevent people from even entering the eviction process? >> Uhhuh. So, I I believe was there some landlord engagement work that I'm looking at, Maggie. I think there was some landlord engagement work um that used to be in community development but has transitioned to community safety.
Sorry. Good afternoon, council member uh Burus. So, we did receive an allocation of emergency rental assistance funding erra 1 and two. It was two tranches as a result of uh the car's act.
So, that uh funding source and investment did go towards uh eviction diversion and support with folks in remaining housed and the investment from those two trianches exceeded $10 million. That funding has all though been expended. Um so as far as current programs there is landlord engagement and within the um homelessness system they do have some investment. I don't have the specific numbers uh but they do work in in that space and capacity in in keeping folks housed but as far as a part of this investment plan uh there our only investment has been in eviction diversion specifically. Okay. >> Is there a possibility you can get that information to me about the homeless services and how that's being um
handled? >> All right. And then also and thank you Maggie, I appreciate that. So then also looking about the um the down payment assistance program >> and so what is the average time that it takes for someone to get I know you said that it's um I guess it starts the fiscal year on July 1st.
What is the time the average time for applicant to get through the process? Like how long does it take on average? >> That's a great question for Dr. Michael Pullum and I'll let him have that that opportunity to respond.
Thank you. Good afternoon. >> Um the process time so it's in two parts. The the process itself begins with the first lender who is our application intake specialist.
They take an application. They screen it. applicants become eligible for a first mortgage loan and then they refer that package to our department for eligibility under the second mortgage or our up to $80,000 loan. So as far as
time is concerned right now it seems the average amount of time for the first lender to get through the complete process is anywhere from 30 to 45 days depending on the condition the conditions of the applicant. as far as we're concerned in our housing department. Once we receive the package, we then begin to work with our closing attorney to prepare the legal documents that are necessary. That's probably about anywhere about 10 days maybe.
And as soon as we approve those uh legal documents, a requisition is turned into our department. We immediately process um that loan for payment and the two closing attorneys decide when the closing date will occur. Okay. And then so over the course of the program, can you provide like an average number of like applicants that like per year, how many folks apply for the program? >> As far as applying, I'd have to get that information from first lenders, but I can tell you the number of approved loans in a given program year.
>> I also want to know the folks who've applied as well. >> I will I can definitely find that out through polling. Thank you. >> Yeah.
Thank you for this presentation and update and for all of the work. It's especially helpful to have that kind of measurement and and reporting process to know how we're doing. Um and especially uh excited to see the variety of interventions for affordable rental uh and sort of the range of ways that we're trying to help support our folks and looking at the programs that have really that that kind of best bang for the buck too with the the preservation of existing units and the stabilization keeping people in their homes. So, I'm glad that those are our priorities.
Um, a couple questions. Um, first question is around the down payment assistance subsidy. I'm curious if the increase in the subsidy has uh like what that impact has been on the uptake of the program from the increase in that subsidy.
>> The original allocation was $20,000 and that was years ago. And so when we began to uh think about uh bringing the DPA program back, we envisioned 20,000, but so many things happened after just initially beginning to discuss bringing the program back. We knew immediately due to market changes that $20,000 was just not going to be sufficient uh for home ownership at this point. Under manager Not a name, we had a lot of discussion and it landed at $80,000, which has been absolutely wonderful.
Even with the $80,000 at this time, what we're having to do is to allocate up to $80,000. And then there's a lot of layering. And by that we mean the applicant also receives funding from the state in various programs. So we layer that particular loan with the 80,000 from the city, another 15,000 from the state, and then another 1,500 to sort of come up with the amount of money that is needed. The housing market is very tight
at this point and we're happy about the 80,000. What we try to do is to find that equilibrium of what actually is needed for applicant to afford a house and not yet overfund a loan. >> Okay. And I'm curious just the process to make that change on that more micro level of the increase in subsidy and whether at the macro level the department has authority to to kind of allocate funds flexibly across different priorities and how you do that given changing needs over time.
>> Are you referring to the change in subsidy? Yeah, change in subsidy and then also if you wanted to move funds from one program to another because the needs have changed uh as the world changes like how how that process kind of works. >> So um when the when the amount changed from 20 to 80 was that done at the administrative level? >> It was. >> Okay. So the city manager made that >> the city manager >> city manager made that change to the
subsidy amount. >> Okay. Now, when you talk about changing programs, that would largely depend for this department on the funding source. So, last night, Maggie made reference to um fund us having to submit a plan to HUD that tells HUD, here's how we're going to spend federal funds, which is different from these Forever Home Durham funds.
We have more flexibility with spending Forever Home Durham funds. Okay. >> Yes. >> All right.
Thank you. >> Yeah, you bet. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
Thanks for the report. Uh, Miss Wallace, it's great stuff. And I know we want to thank the manager. I know we've been asking for like give us an update on this.
It's been it's been now >> it's been six years, right, since we we passed the bond. So, it's been six years. I guess I have questions first of all about the sort of like the communication side of this thing. So, it's so we said it was five years this 2019.
Now, we're sort of six years in. So, when do we >> are we saying we're done with Forever Home now? When do we say we're like completed? And I appreciate that some of that we've met most of our goals, some
we haven't met. And I think part of being part of being a high performing organization is being honest about like where we've succeeded and where we've not and sort of understanding what's happened there, doing a full >> afteraction review. So when when do we say like we're done? Part of my thinking is also >> housing is a key priority because we talk about this all the time, right?
And so as we look down the road at some point we probably need more housing bond funds, right? And I think we probably Oops, my time's over. That is just the allocation for the presentation and based in the agenda. You're fine >> for 30 minutes.
>> Okay. >> You're good. >> Yeah. Um so, so part of it going back to the voters for additional bond funds at some point maybe sooner or down the road is to make the case for what we've done with Forever Home. So I'm just So when do we when do we say we're we kind of >> done? we sort of here's the final results because you kind of said well it's still ongoing and I know the work is ongoing we get the we get the dedicated housing fund dollars every year >> that's correct >> so how do we how do we properly
communicate what's been done with this 171 million or 159 million I don't know what the number is >> and sort of like present final tally to the >> so we we will have um there was actually some discussion about whether to do a big splash right um and So, it's kind of we certainly can celebrate um the the achievements, but we do have to acknowledge to to your point there's some work that's in the pipeline and there's some some areas where we have not met the goal within the time period that was originally allotted, but we will be updating the public um on here's what's been achieved today. Today's discussion or presentation was part of that. Um, I do know that we have a partnership with a marketing firm and so we've asked them for a closeout report. Their report is essentially a regurgitation of what we provide to them. So I'm not expecting them to to they'll make it look pretty, but um the the data is what what's what's before
you. >> And so we're saying sort of so it means kind of we're saying as of the end of 2025 we're sort of like that's is that kind of where we say we've we're done with that forever home or we >> we're not done. There's literally some items like uh tribute >> tribute rising. I mean that that's that's not that hasn't been approved by council yet.
We've allocated the funding in in this funding program, but that work has not for us yet. So we're not at a place where we can say done. >> Yeah. Then maybe let me shift to down payment decisions.
I appreciate my colleagues raising that. It's one that we've talked about for the last couple years. Our goal was like 400 and we've got maybe 125 or so. Mhm.
>> Um so in that work will continue I imagine funded by or or actually let me ask about that. 3 million right in that first that was like slide number two or whatever. >> And then down below when you were reporting on that it looks
like the budget was different more like eight something. 1 is funded by the bond dedicated housing fund gave another 2 million. So, somewhat different numbers there. >> And my sense is that like this is an ongoing priority to the city even though we've sort of we've set a goal of 400 with Forever Home.
>> We're going to keep doing down payment assistance is one of the key ways that all communities provide um support help folks become homeowners and build wealth that way. And so um so we'll continue that work regardless. Right. That's great.
>> Um I guess >> so. Yeah, I look forward to continuing that work. I guess because we have a discussion and thanks for Dr. Paul who's been here.
I wonder have we have we benchmarked our down payment assistance program with other communities because again this is a common tool almost everybody does this as a way to help folks become homeowners. Have we benchmarked that against others? Because I'm sure there's different ways you can structure the deals and structure the funding, right? Because I do think it's a at least for me and I think my
colleagues as well a big priority is to see more families. I think that I think the demand for this is large. Um, so I think for me and I think others is kind of how come we haven't done done more of those with such demand for home ownership. And so maybe kind of benchmarking our program with others could be a way to figure out are there ways we can do this in a more streamlined way to to attract more applicants.
As you said, I'm sure the credit is one of the challenges. Um, credit repair could be one of them, >> but there could be other reasons too. There could be marketing and all kinds of things. Then it could be maybe we're, you know, not efficient on our end. So we'd love to see us benchmark this other communities >> and that I do believe that's part of the work that the uh fuse fellow her name is Relle Brooks and I didn't see her she's not in here today but Relle that's part of what she's um been work been look been looking at um not just what the part of it for us is what's the experience for the potential borrower what is that what is that >> from a user perspective >> that's right that's right so that's that is key um information for us but yes that's part of her work as well >> that'd be great y >> and again thanks And I I do look forward
to us really kind, you know, sharing with the public what we've done because I think that's a key piece of going back to voters to let them know that. Yes. So we can then make the case for additional down the road. So thank you.
>> You bet. Thank you. >> Uh thank you for this presentation and um thank you to my colleagues asked a lot of questions that I uh too had. Um, I don't feel like I maybe got a great answer to council member Copak's question about the change in the program after we increased the limit to the 80,000.
Um, and and then also like I just want to know like sort of where in the process those I think we had we have 125 successes. Is that I wrote it down. Um, sorry. Yeah. I I'm just kind of curious about
the timeline for the slides that you gave us. So, I'm going to go to the down payment assistance one, which I'm pulling back up. Um, but yeah, just curious about the the time frame for like those completed applications. Like >> how long did it take for the people?
>> I kind I I heard what I heard was that we have the first lenders that takes 30 to 45 days and then it comes to the city and there's an additional 10 days for our processing and then it gets set for closing. I'm curious about when those completed applications came over the past five years. Were they all in the last year? Were they spread out?
>> Yep, you can. >> I asked that question yesterday. >> Yes. >> Um and so by fiscal year >> Okay. Um yes the first the actually the first loan was closed in March of March
of 24 and during FY23 246 loans were were closed FY 242 18 loans were closed 2526 12 loans have been closed to date so that gives us 36 and we currently have one loan that is approved and and pending closing. >> Okay. But we didn't close any before 2024. >> No, those uh first the first year plus was spent trying to shape the program um to be in effect to administer.
>> Okay. >> Do we have this is a not numbers question, but do we have feedback for folks who've gone through the program? Do we talk with them afterwards and and see what things went well, when things were difficult? >> That is exactly what we're working on right now. We have a brand new uh program administrator that started a couple weeks ago and one of the first
tasks is to uh reach out to participants of the program to find out what how they felt about the program. How well did they go through? What is it that we could do better to assist? uh we have we reached out earlier to people who had actually closed on loans and we weren't as successful with that.
We couldn't get the participation that we really wanted after the loan closed. So, we're thinking about an an option to talk to to applicants before the closing to see if we can get consent uh after the closing to talk and receive feedback. But that is one of the main objectives of the new uh program administrator. >> Okay.
Are we also having convers I assume we're in regular conversation with the first lenders as well? >> We got feedback and changed our program or had any things that we've done differently >> while we were reshaping the program. We spent a lot of time with the lenders. As a matter of fact, some of the uh reshape components of the program is a direct result of the conversation that we had
with the lenders. There actually has been uh recently a uh promotion on the today's show about uh down payment assistance and the city of Durham's program was highlighted. One of our uh participants in the program was actually interviewed along with a participating lender in our program. City highlighted for our contribution that has been a a big uh play on our program and we were excited that that took place.
>> That's awesome. um when you send us the numbers about people that have applied, we we could also take a link to that. I would love to see it. Um okay, I wanted to go back to Thank you.
This is going to be a >> Miss W's question. Um so I'm I'm going back to the the low-inccome household stabilization goal. Um, and I I already knew that these
numbers are high. It's no secret that I uh literally was like doing some of this work or a lot of this work. Um, but out of all of our in households that we stabilized, which was 47 4,730, 4,244 of them were through the eviction diversion program. So, I was wondering if you could walk us through the cost of that program and if y'all have done any sort of calculations about like the monetary impact um because that's a huge percentage of that amount and then and the other kind of like large chunk of those are are HUD funding.
>> Um and then the rest of it is there's just a couple of other things. But um I'm interested to know the amount that was spent because looking at those numbers that's that is the bulk of of how we were able to stabilize housing. >> So um that actually predates me in this space. So I'm going to invite up um
Maggie who um can provide insight on that. >> Is it coming from Oh, it is. Okay. So, as far as um Council Member Cook funding allocated, it's almost $5 million.
Right now, we do have a current active contract with uh Legal Aid of North Carolina that runs through, please correct me if I'm wrong, uh June 30th, 2025 to continue administration of eviction uh diversion services. And they are on, I'm sorry, excuse me, 2026. June 30th, 2026. And that um contract is on on track to expend the funding allocation for this year of 725,000. >> I'm I'm like looking over my shoulder at Council Member Riss's screen that seems to have this broken down and I for some I did ref I refreshed I promised I refreshed literally like 20 minutes ago because I thought my slides didn't match. Um okay.
Is this over? Is that the whole time? >> And the funding allocated. So, if you're looking at the slide that says low-income household stabilized and uh it breaks down the various project names, that is how much we invested or allocated as part of this initiative to each of these program and project areas.
And then that allocation is broken down. Um it just indicates the the sources that comprise that allocation. >> Okay, I understand. So, um, when we are moving forward, we're going to that funding is still going to be as part of the both the dedicated housing fund and the general fund.
Are we moving? Do we have a sense of where that money continues to come from? >> So, we do not know for certainty where it will come from. That will be part of the budgeting process where we ascertain what's what's available where and what the contributions um and needs will be.
So, I'm just going to as a as just a useful piece of information like this is a it is a very economical way of stabilizing households if we're looking at like cost per household stabilized. Um, yeah, it's it's a super economical way. So, just kind of pointing that out as a as a general goal. And I know that we had a question earlier about rental assistance.
Um I know that in the past that hasn't really been a city function. Um I can say from the HSAC meetings uh that we are not seeing we're seeing actually a decrease in the rental assistance money that's coming through. Um so just pointing that out because uh those two things work in tandem. Part of the uh conversation or the part of the RFP with legal aid was also a mediation. Um, and if you don't have methods of getting money, it's hard to mediate conversations uh among landlords and tenants. So, uh, just pointing that out
as a as a as a issue that y'all all heard me bring up, but just want to bring up again. Um, but yeah, I really appreciate this presentation and um, we look forward to more information on the down payment program. Thank you. >> Just one more question.
Um, again, thanks and I look forward to really kind of telling the story to residents. Um, >> as we've talked about, we did did really well in creating and uh preserving affordable rental, the stabilization piece. We just talked about the moving folks, unhoused folks into permanent housing. The other one the other one we didn't do as well and we haven't talked about is the goal of um is minority and womenowned business enterprise contract.
>> So, what what's the story there? >> I don't know. I do not know. Um I do know that we have a significant contract with the uh United Minority Contractors of North Carolina. Um and what as as I have learned more about this particular
contract, the focus is on creating the opportunity, right? And so um I I definitely have to do some some additional work um with them um to because that is an area where we are certainly lagging behind. And I think um they they are they work very closely with the Durham Housing Authority as well. So there's certainly some more work that needs to happen there to be able to provide some insight on why the numbers look the way that we do.
Obviously the the the the lay of the land, the availability of minority women contractors um are drastically different from than others, but um I can certainly get some more information on that and will. >> Yeah, it seems like something working with like OEWD for example and sort of building the pipeline and we talk about this other kind of contracting opportunities. It's always something we we wrestle with sort of getting enough qualified contractors and I don't know whether the I mean that's not something that's changed in the last couple years, right? So, I'm kind of curious in the beginning if there was a a plan to to proactively address that as part of that goal or whether simply that was the goal
and we sort of didn't hit it. >> Um, we actually yeah, we we had some conversation around that. I I do not know what those numbers were rooted in. I do not I do not know.
I have I have asked I I make no assertions about the number. I just do not know that. Um, Megan, did you have something you want to add to that or >> concur that there are some questions with uh existing staff about where that $130 million uh value or goal uh originated uh because it is ambitious relative to where we are in progress to date. So, we've met about about half.
Um so, we are continuing to work with UMC as assistant city manager Wallace mentioned. um they do engagement uh with all the developers, facilitate trainings, they attend events to try and engage MWBEs to uh serve as subcontractors and contractors in these big development projects and deals. So they are making efforts um they are
making efforts there. I >> appreciate that and and you know as for me like to me I'd rather set an audacious goal than sort of set it like safe goals. So I think it's good to set big goals. This is a key again a key part of our housing work as well as in other parts of the city.
We want to make sure we're supporting this is one of the key ways we can support minority and business owned firms is by giving them contract opportunities. So it's a goal that we have had. We'll continue to have and I just urge us to keep working at that building the pipeline because we want to set audacious goals not just goals. >> So I was also reminded that because we're not done um there's still opportunity um to Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you. Council member Kopac. >> Uh, thank you for the presentation.
Thanks for putting this on the agenda for us. Um, it's definitely something that that comes up quite a bit. Um, I'm curious of the uh creating and preserving affordable rental units. The goal was uh 2400. Looks like we've we've met that
goal. um what the breakdown is by area mean income that's being served >> um and if you don't have that uh immediately if we can if we can get that and then also >> um the terms so are we talking about 30 years are we talking about permanent affordability >> um 15 years that kind of thing >> okay >> do not have that but we'll certainly >> um and then uh for those affordable units >> she's got it Maggie's got Yeah. >> Would you want an oral update? >> Can skate a ballpark >> writing >> at the mic.
>> Add the mic. >> Sorry. >> What What is uh below 30%. 30% area median income.
>> For creation of rental units, we have 190 and that's an aggregation. And then for preservation, we have 310. >> Okay. and then 31 to 60% AMI in aggregation
961 units and for preservation 450 and then at 61 to 80% we're at 130 and then as far as period of affordability it really is project specific I'd say generally it's at the 30-year point some have 50 years some have 45 years so it's project specific >> okay and some of those it might be 30 years, but it's with a community partner or institution where we're pretty confident that it will be in perpetuity. >> Yes, absolutely. So, Durham Housing Authority, for example, in perpetuity. >> Okay. So we don't so based based on what is in the table in front of you, we don't actually know kind of the breakdown of the affordable units with regard to permanent affordability versus >> ones that will actually be 30 years or 50 years. So we could provide the detail
by AMI distribution of each project as far as in perpetuity when we write our loan agreement uh with the respective developer. Generally we do tie a very specific amount of years as forgivable um just for basic loan management. So, as far as our loan agreement, that that legally binding contractual document, it would state this year amount or figure, but we could state DHA even though we have a 30-year forgivable loan or um amvertising loan with them. >> It's going to be in perpetuity 30 years.
>> I think there's just that nuance between what our contractual legal instrument is and what that says versus what we know the reality would be. >> Yeah. And then if it is like a like private partner, um do we build in anything that is right of first refusal or anything for uh nonprofits or other
organizations that will have a that are motivated to to maintain uh housing units uh in affordability in perpetuity? I am going to bounce that question over to Matt Walker if you don't mind, Council Member Baker. Bratt Walker up. And I would say each each deal, just to emphasize, is very specific and unique based upon the various funding entities, underwriting, proforma, there's a variety of factors that come into play.
Um, and so each loan agreement does look different, the terms look different. If we just have any general concept of of these things, that'd be great. >> We we we do. So, um with missiondriven organizations, we generally work um towards that affordability in perpetuity. Although the restrictive covenants don't say in perpetuity. Um we craft the deals so that um we have a seat at the table when those um
affordability restrictions expire. And normally if those affordability restrictions expire and they owe us money, then we have a seat at the table and we're able to um refinance or resynicate those projects and move forward for another 15-year increment, 30-year increment, 45 year increment, um on and on and on. >> Okay. So, we maintain some leverage for a time period that may or may not run out.
>> Exactly. >> But a time period that's probably at least 30 years >> at least. at least 30 years. And remember, we have um investors that are in um those deals and especially when we're working with the the housing authority, they'll work to make sure that um at the end of those initial affordability periods that those investors are taken out so that we have more missiondriven organizations, land leases, long-term land leases, so that the land comes back um to uh the DHA or to the missiondriven organization. It gets tricky when you're talking to for-profit developers, but um they've
all understood that we're trying to looking for long-term affordability and they're working with us for those 50-year covenants, 45 and and for moving forward, so on and so forth. >> Thank you. So, the mechanisms for protecting affordability are built into not not necessarily into like covenants or deeds. they are they're built into the restrictive covenants that says that um for this period that they have to remain affordable in the financing sphere.
You want to be able to at the end of that >> either >> get your get all your money back or have a seat at the table so that when um there's a a payment to be made maybe a balloon at the end of the 30 years that you can use that as leverage to keep long longer term affordability. >> Okay. >> Um thank you so much jump on this. We talked about this during the budget season. So the money we put into the Durham affordable housing loan fund, the county match and the Duke match, that's exactly what that loan fund is is to acquire as properties are coming out of their affordability period. We can then with the with DOL actually acquire them
and bridge them over to a nonprofit who wants to actually continue managing it as affordable properties. So that's exactly what we because that's not a it's not a multi-purpose housing trust fund. It's kind of exactly to acquire properties that are coming out of affordability. >> Yeah.
No, I I appreciate that. Yeah. And I I I believe in decommodifying housing to the extent that we can and using all the different levers and mechanisms that we have to to be able to do that kind of thing. Um there are one or two maybe several uh properties that kind of folks will come come up during work sessions and and talk to us about.
Um JFK Tower is one kind of a frequent flyer. Um, so you know, they've got some money from Forever Durham. What kind of leverage does the does the city have in ensuring that they are maintaining the property, that things are safe, um, the tenants are getting what they need? So, our our loan agreements come with restrictive covenants, and they all
point to keeping the property decent, safe, and sanitary. And if you don't keep the property decent, safe, and sanitary, which includes those maintenance items, then you would be in violation of your loan agreement. Um that's the leverage that we use when we talk to um the developers to keep the units um in decent working order. >> Thank you.
>> Mayor add additional comment to that and that is just to say that in addition to those requirements, uh staff is always uh paying attention when those concerns are brought forward. I think in particular with JFK Towers and other properties after those comments, we've followed up with property owners. We've checked with our code enforcement staff. So, um there are both the formal leverage tools of the uh forever home dollars. Uh, but there are also all the other tools of the city. And I just I I want to elaborate that in addition to whatever specific agreements we may have, we also have used all of those other tools to fully investigate any concerns that were brought to our
attention and seek remediation where necessary. >> Thank you for the um Noah preservation pilot. So, you mentioned that that was for properties that are nearing the end of of affordability. Is that like properties that are affordable for 30 years and they're nearing the end of that term?
>> Well, let let me just uh Noah naturally occurring affordable housing wouldn't have existing income restrictions. >> That's what I was wondering. So, we're just kind of talking about properties that are maybe aging and distressed, nearing distress, >> you know, naturally just affordable. Just naturally occurring, affordable.
Now, you may look at these properties and they may have some deferred maintenance. Maybe that's why they're affordable at this point. Um, they're just not >> very expensive at this point. Um,
>> a judgment call. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay.
Yeah. Um, thank you guys so much. I really appreciate this. I I think a priority for me, uh, is to spend public dollars on those who are most in need.
So, the lowest wealth, the lowest income families and individuals, um, people who are unhoused. Uh so when I see that we are not meeting the goal for down payment assistance uh programs which I do think are important that is probably the the bucket that I um I am least concerned about. I again I think that's an important uh place to to put some public dollars. But I also think that having stable um rental housing, making sure that we're serving people who are unhoused or previously unhoused.
I think that that needs to be the priority for uh public dollars. Um every city faces challenges with down payment assistance programs um for a variety of reasons. Uh we have faced it
in the past. Um they it just the whole system of getting a mortgage and buying a house uh favors those with um you know uh social capital. Um and you know when we look at Southside in Durham and what happened there and the gentrification that happened there using CDBG dollars um you know it was it was really low income privileged people who benefited the most. So kind of like grad students who were temporarily lowincome.
Um and so I think that's almost just inherent to to down payment assistance programs uh around the country. Um, I am still interested in a comprehensive housing plan. I know that we've tackled that in different ways without doing a full comprehensive housing plan. Um, and that would I would like to see how Forever Home and any other um, publicly driven housing
programs fit into the the broader scope of a comprehensive housing plan and a housing study. Um, I would be interested in in kind of a qualitative analysis once we're nearing the end of of spending on uh Forever Home. Just kind of hearing what what went well, what didn't go well, what would we do differently, what are we really proud of? Um, I think that that would that would be helpful for us to wrap our minds around everything.
Um, and then yeah, I think I am very interested in what are investments we can make. Yes, I think that we need to to deliver to residents who are feeling the pain of housing challenges that we face today. I'm also interested in what are some of the interventions that we can make um as a public sector today that will benefit uh people down the line in 10 years, in 20 years, in 50 years. Um, I think maybe the the um
the example that that most housing advocates bring up for best system of housing is maybe Vienna, Austria, where so much of the housing stock has been de decommodified. The largest landlord in Austria is the city of Vienna. And a lot of that has to do with decisions that were made in the 1930s. Um, so so what are some of those?
what are some of those things that that we can do today um that would benefit you know the next generation? That's what I've got. Thank you so much for the presentation. >> Thank you, Mr.
Kobe. >> Yeah. So, just to kind of echo the comments about trying to serve our residents who are at lowest AMI um as a priority, I would echo that. And getting back to Council Member Cook's, you know, assessment of the cost effectiveness of some of the stabilization work, um you know, I think it's worth looking at. You know, I know we may not have flexibility now to move funding based on the funding source as we plan for the future. Thinking both about the the cost to
execute. So, you know, $80,000, you know, for down payment assistance plus layering on other sources of funding from city and others, you know, versus, you know, 2,000 uh to help keep someone stable. And then also just thinking about like how hard are we working at demand creation from like a staff time in order to to to to you know to generate the demand in order to be able to deploy a program. Uh and so I think it'll be worth uh as we look toward the next phase if we don't have the flexibility now to think about how do we prioritize and how do we evaluate also that like cost per impact uh you know targeted at some of our folks who are the most vulnerable and uh at the lower uh scale of income.
So, thanks. >> All right. Um, thank you all colleagues for your comments. Um, I I am I'm grateful that the council way back then, you know, came out with this idea.
At the time, it was the it was the largest housing bond in the state's history, I believe. Um, and and I'm proud to say Dorm was a leader in that, you know, and now everyone is doing housing bonds and larger cities are doing larger bonds because I believe everyone sees the need. Um, I I look at this well, first of all, let me ask you a question. I was speaking with a few realtors and their biggest gripe is it's just so hard to, you know, work with this program.
And I think we've answered that a couple of times, but I'm I'm not sure. Uh I I didn't hear when we were talk one of you all were asking about the I think council member Cook was asking about the the feedback. I'm I'm really interested in hearing you know more of that feedback from the actual um the person who's seeking the loan or seeking the assistance the applicant and their experience. Um, but the applicant is supported by a realtor and I've spoken directly with the realtors and this is the program they
name the most and say it's just extremely hard to work with. And I'd like to know one if you've had a conversation with any of them staff and were any of the u industry experts a part of the uh process creation and I guess you know three you know what are what are they saying from your perspective? excuse me, in putting the program together, we met with the uh Durham Board of Realators at a big session with them. It was a very good session, as a matter of fact, and we were interested in finding out from their perspective what would be needed in order for them to do their job well to help locate um affordable units to suit the needs of our loan applicants.
We took some of their suggestions uh and put them into the program and periodically we talk to realators just like we talked to the lenders to see if it's working. For some realators it seems that it does work. They seem to have uh become very
familiar with our guidelines program guidelines and are able to help guide um their um people into the program. Then we've talked to some realators who are are saying that yeah it's a little difficult. We're not exactly sure. So, what we're trying to do, again, and I keep referencing our new uh program administrator, that will be one of the task in um getting started in his uh career here with us, talking to realators, talking to lenders, talking to the community, engaging churches.
We're interested in a total uh picture of what's going on in the DPA program so that we can better, you know, shape our program to fit the needs of those who really need our help. >> Thank you for that. So, that's something I'm going to watch closely. >> Okay.
>> Um because I'm I'm, you know, I know realtors wanted to move fast because time is money >> and government does not move fast. Um >> I so I I do want to know where the bottlenecks are happening. Is it in the underwriting? You know, is it the the
qualifications or conditions of the applicant? You know, uh all of those things, you know, because customer service, I'm thinking through the lens of customer service as well. So, I'm glad that we have this person on board focusing on this uh process experience. >> Yes.
>> Um so, I'm interested in in that. I I know that we were talking about priorities. Um u regarding the housing plan, I'm I'm with Council Member Baker. I know we have this pretty massive housing assessment that was just done. If you take all the programs in the actual h in this bond, I think that's part of the plan as well. So you can look at it retroactively and say these are pro these are things that are working because we are housing people and and I feel as though we are uh when I hear some of the advocacy on housing and this is why I want more like I appreciate the comm's team at the city but I I I I think that you know when residents talk to the city and want to hear what's going on it's not necessarily you know um I don't know we
we just have to communicate exactly exactly to what the expectations are and and a lot of that is going to fall on on us and not necessarily our communications department and how we actually communicate back to our constituents. Um because this is a lot of progress. I mean we we we're doing a great job in many areas in many respects and and I and I I don't know how we're going to better communicate that to people. Um but I want to make sure that folks know that we are housing people.
We're transitioning people. We're helping people own places. We're helping people get more units. We're trying to divert from eviction.
And you know, I know that, you know, um DHA and you know, uh they end up in court with residents sometimes residents supported by legal aid. We are literally funding the plaintiff and the defense. We're doing it all. And and that's because we want to make sure that, you know, we we're housing people. We want to make sure that folks are, you know, um, following the process, you know,
carrying out their own responsibilities, but we also realize that this housing market is volatile extremely, and we want to make sure that they're supported, you know. So, so Durham is going to do it all. I appreciate that. Um, I am not going to lean one way or the other over what part of the program I'd love to put more energy in or not.
I think that, you know, the whole saying about, you know, uh, give a man a fish and they're XYZ, you know, teach them how to fish and they'll never go hungry. I think it's a both end. I I think I think that we need to, you know, uh, support folks and support them to the point where they can be self-sufficient. I need I think we need to think of it through a sustainability lens as well as a supportive lens.
And so, um, I'm not in the I'm not interested in just giving someone something and letting it drop there because we didn't do anything for them but helped them in the moment. What do we help what do we do to help them tomorrow and the day after? Um, so, uh, I think that, you know, we do need to, uh, just in regards to our values here in Durham, uh, you know, give folks, uh,
ex give give a hand out, grab their hand and then give them a hand up. you know, reach out, give them support, uh, and and and don't let go, you know. So, I I think that we can be, uh, much more holistic in this, and I I appreciate what's been done, and I want to continue to support it. I'm going to keep my eyes on it.
And where we have those bottlenecks, let's let's dive in deep and and and and not let it take forever. Not let it take forever. Uh, so, uh, thank you for this. Um, this is this is great work.
Thank you. >> All right. Uh thank you uh madam assistant. >> Uh city attorney colleagues. Let's take a 10-minute break.
All right, welcome. Welcome. Ready. Go.
>> Good afternoon, Mayor. Uh, Mayor Pro Tim's not here, but general counsel to the council. Um, my name is Evian Patterson. I'm assistant transportation director over our mobility services.
I'm also joined by our uh director today uh Not a name and our senior parking manager Andre Williams. Um and we're delighted to be here uh to talk about um our give you overview of our parking system. Um the request to do something about parking has has been shaped by residents and especially by businesses who are really um navigating some new economic realities. uh changing customer patterns and ongoing shifts in workplace uh behavior post pandemic. So in that context uh today's presentation is designed just to give you a clear picture of how our parking system works.
Uh the factors influencing downtown access and operational and policy considerations as we think about how to shape the future. Our goal is not to advocate for any specific direction, but to provide a foundation uh for the conversation you want to have about downtown parking and its um uh role in economic vitality. Just a little bit of an agenda today. We'll we'll start with some management parking management principles and hop into some our practices and and policies.
Do uh a look at our comparisons with with other cities and come back for some discussion with you. If you'll indulge us, we'll do a little parking management 101. Um, parking management is about balancing access, turnover, and customer experience. Um, it it connects the stewardship of public assets uh to to economic vitality. And when well-managed, parking becomes an enabler. People can get downtown easily, businesses have
better turnover, and visitors can enjoy a predictable and safe experience. Uh this slide shows the co core components of our uh system and how it functions. Uh Durm's parking system is comprised of uh on street parking meters, off- streetet garages, lots, residential and monthly parking permits, curbside access management, and customer service. And these all have to work together every day to support the downtown activity.
Uh on that bottom row, on street parking supports turnover and more of the short trips and and convenient trips. Off- streetet garages provide longerterm uh parking reliability and safety. Uh permits and customer service ensures residents, uh workers, businesses, uh they receive uh support and and responsiveness. And that last piece, curbside management, balances uh commercial loading and unloading, ADA spaces, micromobility and
uh transit access. So all these um you know support what's on that the row above uh really to achieve uh some of the the goals of economic vitality and connected mobility and also to provide a safe user experience. And we want to show that parking is not a standalone function but really part of a larger transportation and echo I'm sorry economic ecosystem. The 2018 study remains a baseline for us.
Um it found that public parking tends to be more heavily used than uh private supply even though p private lots uh make up a larger share of total spaces downtown. The studies show the different uh peak times, weekday office uh demand versus week weekend nightife and event demand. And it projected uh a nearly 59% increase in downtown residential units, meaning more people living, visiting, and circulating in the
downtown core. This text really helps to explain some of how the the perceptions shift over time depending on um time of day, location, the audience, and really how the the um evolving land use patterns are changing as well. So when we talk about best practices um in municipal parking, we we tend to focus on predictability, fairness, and the user experience. Um a key industry benchmark is to maintain about 15% of on street availability w which equates to roughly about one to two parking spaces per block.
This really signals a a healthy turnover uh on a block. This also keeps space open for uh those other quick trips like um access to food deliveries and pickup short errands or brief appointments. We also want to encourage a a park once environment where downtown visitors visitors can park in a garage and walk
or take a scooter to um multiple destinations like uh dinner or show at DPAC or the Carolina Theater without really needing to repark. And it also aims to reduce traffic congestion and and circulating as well as improving mo mobility throughout downtown. A key part to improving the parking spir experience also is is making payment simpler and more intuitive. As a best practice, cities are moving towards flexible customerfriendly technology and Durham has been doing that intentionally as well.
So tools like Park Mobile or mobile payment allow customers to pay co pay quickly using their smartphone and then move on to their next desk destination without um that stress or frustration or even confusion. And I'm happy to report today that Park Mobile now accepts Apple Pay. Mr. Mayor, um but more importantly, >> thank you for that. >> Sure.
We um we continue to offer multiple payment options uh so customers can choose what works best uh when using technology and to remove that friction instead of creating it. And finally, we continue to invest in uh programs that support affordability. in 2021 with the direction from the council. Uh we launched a low low-income discount parking permit program for downtown workers and since then have received over 270 applications and issued 162 uh permits demonstrating both the need and our city the city's commitment to supporting workers uh who rely rely on downtown parking.
So, building on those uh best practices, this slide offers a brief look at the key functions that keep our parking system operating smoothly every day. These are those d behind the scene elements that directly shape the parking experience for customers and access downtown. At first, we price parking competitively
to ensure availability while staying in line with local with the local market. Our pricing helps ensure there's adequate turnover and uh a balance between uh convenience and access. But we're also operating in a a marketplace where private lots have popped up in high demand areas, particularly increasing since that 2018 study. And we've we've learned that some have begun to charge up to $3 an hour in some locations.
And this really highlights the the how valuable parking access has become throughout the area, especially with the evolving landscape downtown. Second, our system relies on integrated technology to uh and upkeep to maintain quality customer service, including smart meters and pay stations, parks, gate equipment, license plate readers, advanced mobile payment systems to collect the revenue and back-end financial management. uh these compon components have to communicate seamlessly and maintaining them requires
a a coordination between our operations and IT and finance and and customer service. Uh a third the um curbside is changing rapidly and balancing those needs has become a ne necessary um um requirement for us. Uh in many cities uh up to 40% of curbside stops are 15 minutes or less. Um often from those delivery drivers that we we depend on to pick up our orders uh or passenger um and and ride share.
Uh we've seen similar patterns here, but we have to do a little bit more of analysis to um see what our impact on our derm curb sides. But the na this national trend explains why the curb can feel full even when garages may have capacity. Uh and why thoughtful curbside management is increasingly essential to supporting businesses and overall mobility. Across all of this all of our our goal is to
maintain a positive customer experience, helping people navigate downtown easily and supporting businesses and keeping a system reliable for everyone. And much of this work is in invisible but it plays a critical role in in the daily experience of visitors, employees and residents. Our as mentioned before our garages are some of the most heavily used public assets in the city. Um many are reaching their age where significant reinvestment is needed.
Uh and that's why this council invested in facility improvements through the CIP. And over the last two years, we've worked closely with our partners in general services to focus on uh things like structural repairs, lighting upgrades, painting, and stairwell renovations. All of these uh improvements to were for safety and clarity and comfort because modern visitors to downtown expect clean, bright, and easy to navigate facilities. And we want our our garages to meet that standard as well. Um we're also
preparing for a near to replace near uh life parks equipment the gate equipment as as part of this strategy as well to make sure that our equipment signage and payment systems are modern and intuitive. This is just to give you a snapshot of the expected revenue uh in FY26. uh as and you can see the share most of our business primarily comes from off- streetet uh parking with the largest share from monthly parking permits. Uh but what you don't see in this chart are uh what the revenue supports like general maintenance and repairs um cleaning and janitorial services, security, equipment servicing and um customer service operations. So, while we while our parking system is performing well overall, there are several challenges worth highlighting as the downtown continues to grow. Uh, on this slide, I want to um um emphasize
that the core challenge in Durham is not simply about the number of spaces we have. is the competing needs we have of managing those um ma managing those competing needs every day from short-term visitors to long-term employees uh residents delivery drivers nightlife traffic um and all these are using the same constrain curb and garage system. So how we balance those needs is what determines the actual customer experience. A second challenge is communication.
Uh we've learned that even when parking is available, uh the perception of un unavailabil unavailability can take hold quickly. So we've been restructuring how we engage the public by reorganizing our staff uh to focus more on customer service and even creating a customer service uh uh manager position with expanded frontline support. And this is really meant to strengthen responsive our responsiveness, our clarity and information and a level of service people expect when they come downtown.
And we also meet regularly with our partners at at DDI. I want to thank them uh for their partnership and working with us along with uh the convention center, Carolina Theater and Dpack and other other partners. Uh having conversations with uh these partners are essential to understanding u event-based demand patterns. what are the customer frustrations and some of the emerging needs across the district.
And looking ahead, u one of the biggest opportunities is we have a system systemwide upgrade um equipment upgrade in FY26 and on to 27. Uh this will replace that aging equipment um and introduce more reliable, more intuitive technology for customers um from those gates I mentioned to easier payment options. And these upgrades will significantly reduce system downtime and improve overall user experience. So I want to take a moment to talk about these gates. Um we got a lot of questions about um why the gates are
sometimes up and why they're sometimes down. Um you know just want to start by saying first the gates are down. That's that's our default. It's intentional.
It maintains security inside the garages. uh it prevents nuisance activity and and ensures proper revenue collection during paid hours. Uh when those gates are left up, it we see increases of unsafe activity and ve vehicles exiting without um paying for daytime parking. However, we do raise the gates sometimes um during major uh special events, but only when uniform staff are physically present.
that helps manage large large surges of exiting traffic and while maintaining a safe and controlled environment. Uh and then thirdly, uh vandalism is an ongoing challenge. Uh we see attempts uh to force gates open, lift them manually and and damage the equipment. These incidents can take the gates out of service until repairs are made. Uh and those repair times vary uh depending on
the issue if it can be fixed quickly um while others require replacement or uh parts. Um replacement parts are more extensive work and I want to assure you in the photo that's not one of our maintenance guys. Um, our goal is always to keep uh the equipment functioning consistently and safely and and as we continue to refine those operations and come up with better communications uh to help customers and so they know what to expect. So, as we as you navigate through some potential policy directions, we thought it might be helpful to provide you with some benchmark um of how Durham compares with other North Carolina cities.
Uh as you see in the chart, our on street and and garage rates are within the same range as pure cities such as Raleigh, Charlotte, Wilmington, and Asheville. Uh some cities charge less, some more, but Durham, it sits in the middle of the statewide landscape. Uh the purpose of this comparison is is not to suggest a
particular approach, but just to provide you context. uh different cities, we know have to make different choices based on economic conditions or their infrastructural needs or or community expectations, but we wanted to make sure you have a benchmark uh to as a grounding point as we think through pricing and policies that uh make sense for Durham's goals and and values. And because we know that there's been some interest in exploring pilot programs, we wanted to share a brief case study of of Raleigh and from Raleigh, um we had an opportunity to reach out to our partners and colleagues in Raleigh to learn about their experiences and direction. And just to um mention, Raleigh launched a 2-hour free parking program downtown in partnership with their downtown alliance. Uh the programs generate strong support for businesses and and visitors and they reported positive sentiment. 7 million from the
program. However, Raleigh also identified some some challenges. The program requires a significant produces a significant revenue loss which increasingly must be absor absorbed by the general fund. uh they experienced increased deferred maintenance is pressures and for their garages and equipment and the council uh met and were supportive but extended the program temporarily uh and expressed some concerns about the long-term sustainability of the program.
Again, this ex this example is presented not as a recommendation but as a a case study to really illustrate the types of trade-offs involved when exploring these types of uh programs. So, with those challenges in mind, um this next slide outlines policy tools that are available to most cities. Um these are not as recommendations but simply as options for council to to
consider. Um, and really these are policy levers and a menu of of options as you think about a long-term strategy for parking in downtown in the downtown. First, a look at reduced or promotional rates depending on council's goals. uh and pricing can support lowerc cost options for workers or the council could consider targeted promotions to support economic activity downtown or look at uh parking prices more broadly.
Our on street and off streetet rates are currently very similar. Uh perhaps considering making adjustments to the current rates to help shape and that demand and stimulate more turnover on street for short trips and push more longer stays in the garage. Some peer cities are are have done paid parking on Saturdays while keeping the parking garage free during evenings and weekends. Or we could look at uh enforcement uh perhaps more a more focus on increasing
a more of a visible presence to help improve compliance and safety um and and as as a way to increase revenue or pursuing a more educated uh education focused approach that supports that positive customer experience and your help um and your guidance can can help us determine uh how to balance those two outcomes. And lastly, perhaps uh asset management. As mentioned, several of our facilities have have reached their will reached their um useful end of life and require more major investment over time. Uh evaluating redevelopment opportunities or modernizing some of the pavement systems or even planning for future facilities in growth areas like uh Gear Street or Washington Street.
Maybe those are some considerations uh that could help shape the system sustainability. Again, none of these represent uh any direction we're proposing. We're just laying out some tools available to you.
So, we wanted to close by focusing on next steps and more importantly getting uh council guidance. Um based on today's discussion, staff can explore the options uh any of the options further and return with analysis and recommendations uh that really align with the priorities that you identify. Um we're also looking forward to hearing about any additional areas or or of of interest or questions you'd like us to examine. Um whether it's the pricing strategies, the employee parking, uh focusing on customer experience or the targeted pilots. Um, and as we move forward, we will continue to work with our partners in at DDI to uh help shape and test some of these specific options and and uh make sure that we are um responding to business and customer needs. Um and and critically really critically as we uh for any proposal um that we bring back we want we would analyze the financial implications uh particularly any that are impacting the
the parking fund that is approximately 2 million uh structural deficit right now. So we want to make sure you have clear information about the trade-offs and sustainability. But whatever we um you provide today, we want to come back with um you know the options that are thoughtful and data informed and really aligned with uh whichever direction you want to go. So with that, I'll I'll pause and take any questions.
Thank you. >> Thank you so much. All right. Um Council Member Baker, >> thank you.
That was the best parking presentation I've ever seen in my entire life. Do do other um uh comparison communities operate with similar structural deficits to Durham? >> Uh we'd have to come back with more information on that. Um, you know, we do have heard in Raleigh they're, you know,
have some deficit that they're working through as well and it's part of their analysis and when they're looking at the 2-hour free U program and extending that, they have to look at the impact to their their parking fund as well. >> Okay. Do we have a light at the end of the tunnel uh with regard to ours or is this kind of just for the foreseeable future we're going to be operating with this kind of deficit? Uh yeah, I think that's a philosophical question.
Many cities are grappling with the same issue. Um >> kind of the norm, >> kind of the norm right now for parking funds for >> for parking funds and also for parking programs in general. Um you know, every many cities have went through the same impacts of the daytime uh worker remote work is impacting our parking programs and so the shifting demands are occurring from the daytime to evening. So, but everyone's grappling with the same um problem and I I don't know about the light at the end of the tunnel, but maybe an opportunities to come up with
different strategies uh based on those demand. >> Council member, can I opine a little on that? Uh I would also add that I think for context uh when comparing with other cities I think there's certainly the possibility and perhaps the likelihood that different cities uh go about accounting in their parking funds different ways making choices about whether or not to charge debt to those parking funds from structures in the parking fund whether or not to charge indirect costs and direct costs. We'd be happy to daylight for council all of those assumptions in this fund.
Uh, but I do think that would make it um I I would not say that it's uh there's no value in comparing parking funds, but I would put asterisks on those comparisons. And then uh I would definitely say that as far as light at the end of the tunnel, I think uh one of the intentions of this uh presentation, if not today, is to get council thinking about their their priorities and what they want to achieve. Um, I think what
how I would frame the future is, you know, what what do you want out of your parking program? Uh, do you want it to be self- sustaining? Do you want it to provide a particular service at a particular price point? Uh, do you want it to encourage other modes of transit?
There are there are many different policy objectives. Um, but I would say under the current assumptions, I would be comfortable saying there is not a light at the end of the tunnel. We do not see demand or pricing changes as being significantly uh improving in the future. And as a result, I think one of the obligations I feel is to let council know that essentially that means there is a tax subsidy that is eventually necessary to this fund. Right now we are borrowing from other funds, but the likelihood that that will be repaid by some turnaround in the financial performance of this fund is unlikely. Um, so which is not, you know, to me simply speaks to having a a transparent conversation with the
council and getting direction from you about what you want from parking would help us provide options for you and give you some direction going forward. Sorry to jump in, but I think >> Yeah. No, thank you. Um, that's that's helpful.
Yeah, I I think I was approaching this this conversation interested in um Raleigh's approach. Um, I've heard from numerous people who really like what uh Raleigh is trying to do with their two-hour free parking. Um, yeah, I'm I'm a walkability walkability advocate and uh definitely want to prioritize transportation spending to transition our city from one that is completely autocentric to one that is um slightly less autocentric uh which would require aggressive changes. Um, that being said, we've also, you know, we also are developing over 3,000 acres of automobile oriented development on our city's outskirts. People who will want to come into downtown and who will
really have no other realistic way to come into downtown and and and you know, spend their money um there. So, that's just something I'm wrestling with right now. Um, I think of all of the kind of I I like all these all the the policy uh choices that you presented to us. I think the only one that I would be interested in in considering is something like a oneh hour free or twohour free program that uh and that being said my asterisk to that is if it's significant cost to us and um would impact you know our other priorities I you know I I would want to know I would want to know that before making any kind of decision.
Um, and also just making sure that those reduced rates for workers that that is a program that is that is working well. I think that that's that's important. That's what that that's what I've got for now.
>> Thank you, member Kopac. >> Yes. Thank you so much for this presentation and for the work that you are doing. Um, a few questions for you.
8 8 million and identified uh you know increased spending in local business through the $500,000 hit to the city. I imagine you could do a similar calculus if you you know waved parking fees entirely what the result would be. Is there a conversation that you have with like director Gunn and office of economic and workforce development and how we think about this as a contributor to economic development and what we think is a um like a worthwhile return on investment for absorbing that sort of cost for the city. >> I I believe today we wanted to get direction from council and to be able to go back and do some of that type of analysis. We've done some back of the envelope um calculations, but I can't share that today. Um but would be open to having those conversations with uh
our partners in OEWD. >> Yeah, because like Council Member Baker, I would have an interest in a program like a 1 hour or two hour free. Um but you know, I'd want to think about how do we compare that against other investments we can make as a city in economic development and what's the financial return? You know, what's the community benefits return?
you know, how do we think about weighing those sorts of choices so it's not just like, you know, we do this or not with with uh with parking. Um, so I'd express that interest. Um, uh, I really love that we have the the, uh, discount program for low-inccome workers, and you shared some figures about applications and and those that have qualified. Do we know how many low-inccome workers we have in uh in downtown or some you know kind of catchment area to think about how many of our workers we're we're actually bringing into the program. >> This this program self-reporting um we don't have that figure. We we open it up for uh any of the in in lowinccome that
meet the um criteria. I don't have a a full figure of how many are downtown. I will say also this program there are significant barriers that some may find coming and reporting that information um particularly in light of uh current conditions uh nationally. So those are some of the complications that we uh deal with when we're um reaching out and trying to bring people into the program.
Uh some are just unable to engage with with the government. Yeah. >> Um but you know we can work on bringing that figure back. I I'm interested myself.
But I don't know if DDI >> I wonder if DDI or the chamber or others have some sort of you know estimates of of what sort of population we're talking about and you know you mentioned some of the barriers and I think it's worth considering how we might address those. I think that like with most you know public programs the more you know the more paperwork the more bureaucracy that someone has to go through you know the less likely we'll see the participation. I mean, we saw what happened with the deer program for the city, uh, and the participation, you know, in in in that
program in terms of, you know, waving old, um, you know, fines and fees, right, for for for for driving and other, you know, issues, you know, simply by making it really easy to participate. And I know that it may be that if you completely do away with um you know kind of program you know um processes and guidelines then you know you have a concern perhaps of people taking advantage of it that may not you know otherwise meet some sort of qualification but that's a trade-off >> and my interest would be is you know based on our identification of the barriers you know how far can we go in in removing and eliminating those and what risk are we willing to accept in order to make it much easier for our low-inccome workers to participate in it. Yeah. And >> so that would be an interest that I would I would have.
>> I will mention that we've we've tried to lower the barriers as much as we've we can. Uh we don't retain any of the records. We just ask for proof of income and uh that's I see Sean stepping up now. He wants to answer about that. But something that we definitely are concerned about is making sure we remove those barriers. But yeah.
Uh so we've also as part of the changes we made last year, we introduced a $20 a month uh evening worker parking permit. So and that requires no documentation at all. That is available to anyone who wants it because we heard a lot of input from downtown businesses that had dinner shifts coming in that folks uh it was the parking was a real barrier for folks coming in to work those uh dinner shifts uh at downtown restaurants. And so, uh, we did, uh, we, so we've, we have had some challenges getting the word out about that program.
We thought that the $20 price point would be really attractive. , uh, is the catch. m. U, so, uh, that one requires no documentation.
There are no barriers. You just pay the $20 every month. Um and so uh that's an example of where we've really worked hard to provide an option, but uh we've got some
work to do with our partners to get the word out about that availability. >> Also just want to mention and and thank DDI because we've worked very closely with them and getting the word out and even meeting people where they're at is, you know, part of our equity goals here in in the city. So we're we're we're we're trying to make it possible and and make sure that it's a viable uh option for for folks who rely on our parking. >> So thank you so much. And just a third one uh and this is going to be a bit farther a field but I'm just curious to think about the our parking footprint and this may be a question for you and also director props but like think about our parking footprint of lots and and parking decks and you know is there an opportunity as part of our renewable energy goals for the city you know to think about those as sites for uh for solar energy um you know u you know while also providing the benefit of you know cooling cars that are parked in the um it could be a way to also to stabilize energy prices um and reduce
energy costs and potentially think about as a as a way to help you know defay you know this this this parking debt or you know find other ways of supporting the the community financially um through that. So I just want to put that on the table just think what are the possibilities of using this footprint we have for that purpose. >> So thanks >> hello thank you so much for the presentation. So, I believe that the ask was what we wanted to see downtown parking.
So, I'm going to stick to that because I would hope to go home at some point this afternoon. Um, so for me, I just really think about like and I just have a couple questions like which year did we switch from free parking in downtown Durm? Was it around 2018 that we had the free parking or we switched over? >> B, do you remember?
>> That was before my time. So, I'm going to get an answer. >> I feel like we had free parking at some point in downtown >> 2016. That's right.
When we introduced parking meters in 2016. Okay. Just wanted to clarify that. >> I'm sorry.
And by free, do you mean on street? >> On street parking. Yes. >> I was going to say the garages for my entire time here have always been paid,
but on street parking. Thank you. So, um, just think about that from my perspective. It is incredibly hard when I do try to come downtown to like maybe I want to pick up some food from somewhere and I can't find on street parking.
And so figuring out how do we like maybe have some reserved spots for like, you know, 15 minutes loading, getting people in and out would be super helpful. Particularly think about for neond when I want to run over there. I can't find park in the loop. I have to just kind of like illegally park.
But we're not going to talk about that. Um, but also think about how we make our decks more inviting. And thinking about that, I think about the Corkerin Street deck. Um, I really try not to park in that deck because of the smells on the inside.
And so thinking about I know that that's been like a recurring problem for me. So thinking about how do we kind of make that a little bit more friendly and inviting um to so how do we think about overall how do we make people using the decks like you said in your presentation keeping cards there for a longer period. So we can open up some of that street parking. So I just think about how we can make sure that the decks are like feel safe or also don't have smells that just are interesting um across the level. So
those are my immediate thoughts about just some parking ideas what I want to see in downtown during parking to make sure that if you're running a quick errand I know when I go to American Tobacco I know that's privately owned. If they even if they're having an event at Deepack I can tell them like I'm just going to pick some food and they're like okay just go ahead and come in back out. So thinking about how do we make sure people who are just like doing really quick downtown errands and want to patronize restaurants for um takeout, how can we get access to parking and then get in and out and go about our day as well. So those are my comments.
>> Yeah, thank you for that. I just mentioned you're speaking of curbside management and those we didn't really uh highlight, you know, go into that very much, but um we have to figure out how to balance the car car storage with some of that quick access. And so uh you're seeing impacts now with with commercial loading. there's a going to be a growing need for for those types of not just you picking up your your order.
The delivery drivers need that space as well so they're not using up the general purpose lane uh in double parking. Um so those are some of the trade-offs we're working through on that. >> No, I appreciate that because it is an issue when I go down Maine and someone is delivering and I have to sit there and like do I go around or do I you know
is one of those. So I think you appreciate for um uplifting that as well. >> Thank you council member wrist. >> Thank you Mr.
Mayor. Mr. Patterson, thanks for the presentation. Interesting stuff there.
Um, as Council Member Baker said, one of the best parking presentations we've had. Um, and I do I do want to thank the city manager again. I think this is exactly the kind of like rich policy discussion we need to have because I think there's clearly embedded in your in presentation this trade-off between the revenue hit, the 2 million per year that we're subsidizing versus these other goals of sort of equity of supporting downtown businesses and their workers. So, I think this is a really a classic kind of policy challenge we have.
So, I have a couple items. So, the first thing I I do like the suggestion of some kind of two-hour free work weekday pilot to see how they might do. I know I see Tiffany's here from DDI. I know it's we just approved the the the downtown group last night which includes like working with the city to do some kind of pilot.
So, I know we've heard calls from businesses about some something during the weekday to make it easier for folks to come down and patronize businesses. So, I think that's a good idea to try that out. I do I'm kind of curious. I don't know
whether Tiffany knows or Sean like how they got this the number of their impact that'd be like methodologically I don't know how you sort of tease out that impact like how they figured out Sean may know >> Sean Eaggan city transportation director so my understanding is that um the city of Raleigh has a food and beverage tax uh that was adopted by referendum so um that makes it easier for them to track because of the sales tax uh what the kind of baseline. Uh >> they can sort of survey folks, hey, did you did you use free parking? >> They can use tax records to determine, all right, during this period last year, how much food and beverage spending was there? And then during the same period this year, how much food and beverage spending was there?
And so they're looking at the delta between >> how do they know in one time period who's who's there for like their two free hours of parking? How do they know? >> It's it's not that simple. Yeah.
There it's it's an estimate. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it was interesting. Yeah. But, but I the bigger point is
like I think it'd be worth testing that and see if that helps the downtown sort of business because we've heard that a lot. Um, the other the other thing, yeah, as my colleagues have said, I do I like the idea of continuing to test these discounts for downtown workers and seeing how that how the takeup is and how that's affecting workers and and the business owners that that employ them. So, I think continuing that would be a makes a lot of sense. There's also some long-term stuff here that I want to want to talk about.
So, one thing we haven't mentioned is in the embedded the slide, it's probably Mr. Egan that didn't include this is idea of like would we increase rates to try to discourage people from driving downtown because like the elephant in the room is where we're investing big time in this council in fair free buses, right, which all come downtown. And yet, we're also investing in two million a year in parking to encourage cars downtown. So, I think some continued conversation about like what do we want to encourage more people to use buses to come downtown, use the micromobility device you talked about, use a scooter to get
from the bus station to Dpack or whatever. I think that's something we need to think about because we're we are we're paying double, right? We're paying for parking, we're paying for fair free buses and it's we're kind of going different directions there. So, I think it's really worth looking into that.
The other thing is that you know we've got these so the back to the 2 million that's largely debt services I understand on the garage that's on the loop right so how is that like 30 year kind of like what are we what's what's the period that we're those bonds are >> ask Tim to address that Tim Flora >> because that would that would suggest like because we the manager said well it's gonna it's not going to go away soon right so this >> for the Morgan rings deck like that is that 15 30 year debt >> mortgage me was 20 years. >> So that 20 years would end maybe in like 15 years or something right. So like 10 years. 10 years.
>> Yeah. >> And so in that time >> we're pushing I think late 20. Yeah. 30
almost 40 20 40. >> So in as the city continues to develop and in that in that time period we're also going to see likely Chapel Hill Street. That garage is probably the oldest or the one that's sort of the furthest along. Right.
So we'll have to make a decision. Do we like reinvest in rebuilding Chapel Hill Street or do we because we got Fairy Buses say we want to continue to invest in people coming down here with our transit, we want to maybe get rid of decommission some of these parking decks, right? And not rebuild it and incur more debt and maybe have more development there, either open space or housing or commercial. So those are the kind of things I think long term we should be looking at because I do as we grow as a city, we get denser downtown.
We want high value de development downtown. Having more parking decks and garages may not be the way to go. Certainly from my perspective. So I think that's something again that's a longer term thing but I think that's something we really need to begin thinking about more clearly.
So >> sorry I did not introduce myself. Tim >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Council Cook, any comments?
>> Thank you. Um Sean, I like the Christmas trees although I'm like slightly disappointed that we don't have a transit oriented tie today. Um but that's okay. It's holiday specific.
Um, yeah, I a lot of the things that I wanted to say have been said. I was just looking at the comparison chart and was noticing in, let's see, Winston Salem, there's I see strong integration with park and ride facilities. Um, and it's just something that I'm kind of thinking about as we are, uh, like council member Baker said, we we are seeing quite a bit of autocentric development. And if we are thinking about methods of transportation that actually combine kind of these two aspects, like allow folks to be able to use public transit and also have a place to like come into the city, not bringing their cars all the way into downtown.
Have we like thought about that? Do we have any plans in that direction? It's a big question.
>> That's a huge question. Yeah, >> we haven't um incorporated that in our analysis, but we will make note of it and and and come back with some ideas. >> Yeah, I mean I'm I and I a couple of my colleagues have stated it. But for me, I'm I'm looking for a a less autocentric community.
And that is our that fits with our goals in vision zero. It fits with uh several of our other um I think we talked about environmental impact and um and zero emissions goals. Uh but it it is hard to like imagine doing that if we don't really like think of big changes. And the space downtown is so valuable and and particularly like we've talked about this a lot, but I mean we have a surface lot across the street from city hall, which in my opinion is like pretty ridiculous. It's taking up a lot of space and not really like giving us anything. Um, and so I'm I'm just sort of thinking about like how we truly
reduce the number of cars that are coming into downtown without reducing the number of people that are able to access downtown and rely on some of these other transit options that we have. Um, I thought it was interesting that we you talked about how expensive the private lots are. Um, and like the slide before you were like, "Oh, it's interesting. " like our municipal lots are heavily used because nobody wants to pay the parking fees in the private lots.
And uh I'm guilty of that. I do take the bus, but when I drive downtown, if uh if even if I'm like nearby a private lot, like I'm driving out of my way to park in a city lot because that's that is just how I feel about that. Um and I also wanted to say that I appreciate I'm gonna keep bringing this up because I think it's really important. I appreciate what you said about continuing to have diversity in methods of payment. Um, when I see these places that are moving to full uh phone and app payment, we just are making that
inaccessible for a lot of our constituents. So, I really appreciate that. Um, just wanted to shout that out because it's something that I've brought up before. Um, but yeah, that's uh those are the things I'm thinking about.
I am um I had already gotten the figures on the low-income workers parking passes that we're doing and was happy to see that those numbers are kind of continuing to go up. It sounds like there's lots of participation in that program. I totally understand the uh paperwork issue particularly for certain vulnerable populations um and want to continue sort of thinking critically about how we can continue to make that more accessible. So, I just want to say thanks on that regard, too, and for your partnership and working with folks in downtown um to make sure that their employees are able to park here.
Um, and excited to hear about the 20 pro $20 program. I did not know about it. Um, so I've got folks that like ask me questions about parking all the time, so I will be texting them like today to
make sure that people know. So, um, really excited to hear about that. Um, I too was like sort of interested in the uh two hours free parking. That was kind of the thing that I was most interested in.
And um I see that we have a study from Raleigh. I'm kind of curious to hear how it was impactful in other cities too if we do have comparisons. I know that that's obviously like the easiest comparable and we have that pilot that was recent. Um, but I'm going to just echo what council member Kopak said, which is that I want to understand like the economic impacts of that with how we are subsidizing if that is the most efficient way of spending our city money.
Um, even though it is taking on debt, it is still an expenditure. And so I really want to have an understanding of that before I would commit to putting that as a tax burden. Uh, and those are my comments. Thank you.
Great presentation. Best parking presentation ever. Uh, Council Member Burger's followup. I'm >> not going to make the same joke like four times, so you don't have to worry about that. I just want to flag for I think it's more for my council
colleagues, not specific for you all, that there's an equity lens here as we talk about limiting cars from coming to downtown. Thinking about what our current transit infrastructure look like for everyone. So, I do like to support the idea of parking rods, but thinking about like there's people who are disabled or there's people who have accessibility means. So, and not everyone lives in like a walkable neighborhood in close proximity to downtown.
Like for example, for me, my nearest um bus stop is like a mile away and there are no sidewalks. So as we think about that, which one comes first? Do we improve the actual infrastructure first before we make those limitations or how do we address it to make sure that we are not disenfranchising someone from coming to downtown if they only have like a vehicle to get there. So thinking about we are creating these sprawl center neighborhoods and so we can't you got to make it make sense some point.
So, I just wanted to flag that and put on the record anything about equity, about who can come to downtown and everyone may not have the same um opportunities that you all may have be in close proximity downtown. >> One last thing. Yeah, just following up on that. Yes. Um we've developed a lot of um sprawl in the past few years. We
are now competing with other centers uh you know like Raleigh. So, some clear direction I would like to provide here. One is I think we need to move away from surface parking entirely in downtown Durham. I I think there are a lot of questions around the garages that we have and and where those will go.
I don't know what that looks like today, but I do think that we need to move away from surface parking in general. Um and I think that there's some pretty good direction in the downtown master plan about that, particularly the lot across from city hall. Um I would like us for to look into at least first free hour of parking. Um some sort of trial and what that would look like.
Um and those are the clear pieces of direction I would I would like to provide. >> Yeah, I like those. One other thing I mean just occurs to me that we are providing a lot of the concern is that we have limited activity. We have like
workers coming back down. We have limited sort of commercial activity during the week. We got much more people like starting Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. A lot more activity yet parking's free on the weekends and we're charging during the week.
Have we thought about flipping that around? >> Certainly. Of course, we didn't go into much detail there. Did did mention it.
Um the the demands have shifted as we said before daytime activity has reduced some but we if you come downtown ane we say anecdotally >> uh there's a lot of activity um um after Thursday evening on even uh during the day on sun Saturdays and to certain extent Sunday depending on the event. So again, that's another policy lever for you to consider um if we're thinking about um where if we're going to respond with rates and demand. Yeah, >> clearly we we we added those parking the entree parking sort of charging when it when downtown was kind of picking up. We were clearly there was sort of like we
were leaving money on the table so we started doing it. But if like if that if there's ways to sort of flip that that do that where we are kind of where we are sort of responding to where the demand is, let's think about that. I thank you colleagues. Um I am on board with uh Council Member Baker.
He said what I was going to say. I want to explore 1 hour parking, 1 hour free parking. Um and I'm definitely on board with just better utilizing our space. Uh getting rid of the surface lots.
Um I think there's a lot of land available in downtown if we did not have to um have surf surface lots. I mean, every service block can have all types of things vertically on top of it. And if we're truly wanting to to densify downtown, we can start there. Um, I of course come from the space uh coming into the space from a more practical uh sense. Um, I am I I'm not
interested in really looking at park looking at parking in isolation. I think it needs to be supplemental to the entire downtown experience. Um I think you know we we have the highest rates parking rates in the triangle. Uh and the higher the rates I think that the more we are going to discourage people to I don't think it's going to discourage them to drive.
I think it's going to discourage them to visit. Uh and I think that we need to think about parking and how parking plays. If you were to look at the downtown experience and budget it out, how much time you're spending in downtown or what you're doing downtown? And this is from the perspective of a resident, you know, a resident that's leaving home.
We are still in a southern city. We're not New York. We're not a a a a we're not a compact uh northern northeastern city where we have a subway. We have, you know, a vibrant bus system. We want to get there, but I don't want to pain the folks living now so bad because we are conceptually
wanting to get we we need to get there. Yes. But we're going to get there as the population densifies. Uh so it all works together.
I look at this as a jigsaw puzzle. Uh and and not, you know, taking pieces game pieces off the table. Uh so I am uh I'm interested in that one that one hour parking and I'm interested in a robust marketing campaign for it. uh so that we can encourage folks coming downtown.
Uh that's folks that are going to, you know, leave home and drive to where they're going. That is the natural we can conceptualize all we want, but we have to also not ignore the natural behavior of people in a US southern city. They're going to get in their car and they are going to drive, you know, and and we have to think about the people who aren't even listening to the city council right now who have no idea what we're talking about. And that is the majority of this city unfortunately go back to the plastic bag debate. >> You know, like I just
it was a great idea for a kid in a class and say we should charge 10 cents per bag and tell the restaurants to charge 10 cents if they're going to need it. Yeah, good luck with that. And when the word did get out that we were thinking about doing that, immediately people started saying, "Wait, I use it as a trash bag. Oh, wait.
I put it we found a lot of cultural practices that did not necessarily relate to the to the proposed policy. I look at it the same when it comes to parking. uh we we can encourage you know riding the bus because we are paying for it you know but I also think about what happens when uh as a restaurant tour you know and what I hear from my my small business peers and it is a reason why they're saying you know you know parking is an issue because their customers are saying it my restaurant is on ATC's campus good luck with my reservation staying full when the Bulls have a game there is nowhere park and they're not going to park somewhere else and get on a bus and come down. Just not happening. So, uh,
we I I wanted us to make sure we're thinking about this holistically. We're thinking about it from the customer experience, from the resident experience. And I haven't even gotten to the visitor experience. We want parking to work.
We want this fund to work. Then bring more things downtown for people to enjoy. Bring a put more things downtown for people to come to. And think about it from a resident perspective as well as a visitor perspective.
I love our residents. They spend money every now and again. Visitors spend money every night. And so more festivals, more events.
I I the Durm the Durham Farmers Market is a prime example every single weekend. You want to see the city activated, go there or get on Main Street, right where Primrose and uh Flavor Hills just opened and uh Killer Queen, which is a new a new wine bar. That little corridor is activated now by way of people just taking a chance. Houston's whatever else is in that corridor where they're all there together. It is a large
concentration of people on Friday and Saturday nights um and in the farmers market on the weekend. So uh I think we have some you know as we're looking at this I I hope that we don't look at it as just parking alone and rates alone or location alone. um let's look at the behavior and the patterns of the people and and let's think of it through an economic lens as well create more reasons for people to come downtown. They're going to come, they're going to park in the decks, they're going to spend money, and that's going to generate the fund rather than just only thinking about how do we supplement from another fund.
Um that's that's how I'm looking at it. " He beat me to it. They are now um they're carrying it out. I'm glad
that we have lessons to learn from them, but uh I I want to add a a a psychological component to this as well. uh and and really following people's behavior. >> Yeah. >> Just one last thing knowing that sort of like the the the the two-hour free sort of there's a trade-off between that and this this revenue the 2 million thing, right?
So so I wonder also whether we could be >> sophisticated about this. I there's got to be data out there about the like the price elasticity of demand for parking, right? You know, and so it's almost like you got a slider there. So if you did like a like one hour parking for a couple hours, you know, would that sort of like what kind of demand would that increase versus versus less of a revenue loss than just going fair free?
So is there is there ways to sort of test out different you know you know $1 parking or something for a couple hours or different sort of so you're you know not giving away all the revenue but sort of testing what that does for demand. Is there >> data on that or a way that we can do that creatively to sort of kind of test out some different >> scenarios? We'll come back with some um
some best practices. I mean, what you're speaking of is uh performance parking or you know looking at things like progressive pricing as a ways of of addressing demand. Uh that could be time of day, they could be location, >> congestion parking, got pricing, right? >> I won't get into congestion pricing, but we know how people feel the nation feels about that.
But those are strategies that are available. Um those are I will um you know advise that that that is uh data heavy resourceheavy you have to there's a lot of analysis that goes into determining when is effective or you can or some cities have placed uh progressive pricing based on an event if you want to look at it that way. Uh there there are ways u um that we can look at and bring that back uh for you if you're looking at where those trade-offs are. >> Thank you.
If I can just add one more other thing I'd love to explore. Um we we do see some vacancy in our parking decks. >> Um I would love to explore the idea of
activating the the top floor of our parking decks more. Um this is crazy wild creative idea but if if and I know risk management is going to lose their mind over >> risk management are they here? But you know, you know, airplanes are flying, you know, metal birds are flying in the air. But if we had, you know, uh, if we somehow secured, uh, an ability to have events on the rooftop of our parking decks, I will say when I came to college, that's where all of our parties were on the rooftop of this parking decks.
You would park in the parking deck. You would pay your $5 to get to the top floor and that's where the parties were. Uh, and then someone uh filed a North ordinance and they stopped. >> But >> so you just answered your your own question.
>> We could bring those examples back if you really want to know. >> Yeah. >> What I'm saying is, you know, just a safe way to activate you know uh you
know uh >> some type of event gatherings on the top floor. you know, um, that's a lot of real estate up there and, you know, been able to have something safely up there and then, you know, people are parking in the parking deck. We've used very little footprint to do something quite impactful economically as well as culturally, whatever that thing is. Um, so I'd love to explore that.
And did you say you were closing the loop as well? Did was that in the presentation, >> Derek Egan? >> Okay. Not yet.
>> No, it was not. >> Oh, okay. All right. Uh, okay.
Okay. Well, thank you all so much. Um, yeah, I I I think you have some information, uh, some direction. Do you need more clarity?
>> Yes. Sorry. Oh, you were talking to him. Uh, so, you know, so I I appreciate uh this great discussion. I thank the transportation staff for leading a really thoughtful uh discussion. And so, just to summarize, you know, a number of
you requested follow-up information. I think staff has tracked that and can make that available in in uh various future discussions. But what I would appreciate more clear direction from and mayor if you could seek consensus from your council members if there are specifically specific policy directives. I heard council member Baker suggest several that he had in mind.
I heard some agreement, but it would be helpful for me for the council to give specific direction on near-term priorities that you would like staff to work on and develop any parameters you'd like on those priorities. Uh, and that will help us make sure that we respond to the highest priorities first. The other items we'll provide as available as we go back through the the conversation and track the different asks and requests. >> Colleagues, are we on the same page with the one hour uh free parking?
Okay. So, that's one >> um >> curbside management. >> Curbside management. >> What specifically? What was
>> better curbside management thinking about how do we >> turn on? >> I don't know. >> Just want to go back to the questions I raised around better curbside management and making like for deliveries and people coming through but also use more. >> Do you have an interpretation of what that would what that would be?
uh we can bring some examples maybe um in in some of the work that we've we've been doing. Here's Egan. Direct Egan wants to answer that one. So um when you have a scarce resource, the best way to allocate that scarce resource generally is to raise the price of it.
So we have more demand for our curbside than we have supply of curbside. Uh and so the way that works um in economics is you raise the price until you get to the point where you have that 15% um vacancy rate. So um what we found is that establishing loading zones and things like that
um is generally not as effective um because they are very it's very difficult to enforce a 15minute loading zone because you have to go there mark the vehicle and then come back 15 minutes later. Um and it is it is extremely challenging to uh enforce anything other than active loading and unloading. Um, but that where we've seen this successful is where you set the price, you continue to increase the price. And what that does is uh it it'll push more and more of those drivers to the off- streetet facilities.
And so then that frees up that on street space for the pickup and drop off and deliveries and going in to grab something and um that kind of thing. So um it is a um it is a blunt instrument price um but uh it is uh a very powerful instrument in in allocating a scarce resource. >> I don't want to be the person that does
that. I'm going to take that back. >> Yeah. And and I was going to I was going to say how how much of that is assumption versus you know reading the data that they will go to an off- streetet parking site and is there a a the psychology of this?
I don't want people saying downtown is too expensive to park so I'm not going. >> So right now we have very little difference between the rates for on street and off street. It's a 25 cent per hour difference. It's not really a meaningful difference.
If you we could bring back a proposal that would show you a much more substantial difference between on street and off streetet and a difference a per hour difference that really could change behavior. uh would it would it would potentially even lower the current off- streetet rates um and increase the on- street rates in order to get that balance correct. >> Yeah. I I'm and I'm I don't want to stall us here because I I uh so I may reach out directly and and talk more about it. I I don't want to
I don't want to get caught in assumptions and I keep it really simple. I don't want to be overly technical with it. Do people feel it's too expensive to come downtown to do anything? It is as simple as that for me.
And um I'm not interested in necessarily the rate difference, but more so what is the customer experience, you know, and and what is that customer experience visitor versus resident? Uh and we may not have that data right now because it doesn't seem that we have a lot of mech mechanisms to track it. If we don't have those mechanisms, then I want to stay away from making decisions around it. I want to be well informed uh on on that. So and and the other thing is there is there is data being captured um resi reservations there there are segments in there to talk about accessibility to where you're going you know and that that could be work with our small business owners downtown um retail shop how easy was it to get here you know so anyway I I'll reach out and
get a bit granular >> our other one was surface lots that We had talked about >> again. Oh, service service lots. Yep. >> I think the other thing was also like >> service lots guys.
>> I think the other piece was I think I heard consensus around sort of the discounts for workers and sort of looking at that and sort of like potentially expanding that. >> It's activated. >> Yeah. Well, yeah, I'd ra Baker and Cook also. that potentially expand but like yeah you know getting data you know whether DDI downtown just about our total worker base >> uh and um just like recommendations for ways also I'd love to give direction to communications if it isn't already just to really pump out that $20 uh benefit too because I wasn't aware of that so >> yeah that that was we ran into that problem uh a last year I believe where I mean a server you know entry level employee was paying, you know, over 100 bucks, sometimes two, based on how much they were working. Uh, so that that was
a a huge win. >> Does that help that that one, too? >> Yes. Uh, with the mayor's permission, I'd like to summarize and you guys can wordsmith me if I if I over or understate this.
So, I heard >> consensus that we will collaborate with DDI and come back in the short term with a proposal for uh what I heard was 1 hour free parking. Uh and so that would come back as a proposal with some analysis for council to discuss and then potentially adopt. Uh the second was to consider direction from the council to explore divesting of surface parking lots. Uh I didn't receive any time frame of that, but it sounded uh like an exploration the council was fairly specific about.
And then finally, I would capture the last piece as uh council remains uh passionately committed to the downtown worker discount program. Wants staff to continue to evaluate the effectiveness of that program. Make any improvements we can to ensure it's fully utilized.
Make sure we fully promote and uh advertise that through all channels. That you're not directing specific changes, but that you are indicating your strong support for that program and want us to lean in. Is that close? Okay, >> good.
>> Thank you. And and if you will maybe um I'd love to know the acreage of surface lots that we have and >> Yeah, >> maybe maybe with planning to see what's possible there. >> Thank you. >> Doesn't that correspond?
>> When talking about the surface lots, isn't that also included in the um downtown 2035? Yeah. Blueprint. So, are you just going to overlay what's already been outlined in that because they're already working together?
Yeah, I would say there's a number of different uh discussions that have happened in the past that would inform this. I think we have had an inventory of downtown land that we have done for discussions around affordable housing or potential redevelopment. Uh the downtown blueprint that DDI that you just adopted last night uh also I think speaks to some of those parcels. So, we'll pull, I think, from all of those sources, the comp
plan, uh, and, uh, all of those sources to bring back some thought pieces for council, and you guys can spur the the next level of, uh, discussion. >> All right. Well, that is everything. Um, Mr.
Manager, you want to settle settle up? >> Thank you, mayor, council members. Uh, for settling the agenda, I have consent items 1 through 10, GBA public hearing items 13 and 14. >> Thank you.
I'll entertain a motion to approve the settlement of the agenda. It's been moved and properly seconded. All in favor? >> I.
All oppose. Good deal. Good deal. Well, everyone, uh, enjoy your holiday.
Uh, when I first got on council, I spent the holidays in checking emails. That was a that was a rookie move. Um, colleagues, go take a break. Go take a break.
>> Take a break. Really appreciate everybody. Thank you.