City Council · Regular Meeting · December 19, 2024

Consent agenda at this time I will considering council member cier is sneaking out a little early I I'll probably come back and address something I heard a little earlier and then we'll get back to the business here all right so item number one and I speaking of the chamber holiday party which was amazing I also lost my glasses there so bear with me here we go here we go hi from the camera here number one Raleigh dor airp Authority appointment number two racial Equity commission appointment W down okay number three holistic empathetic assistance Response Team heart program performance audit November 2024 number four Americans with Disability Act adaa title two governance performance audit November 2024 pull up number five revisions to deer bow hunting ordinance number six number five number six contract for Property Appraisal Services number seven parking facility structural maintenance construction contract with Carolina restoration and waterproofing incorporated number eight US Department of Housing Urban Development fair housing Cooperative agreement Grant award by fiscal year 2025 number nine amendment to US.

Department of Labor py 2024 2026 Grant project ordinance number 16403 for Federal grant to execute city of Durham Workforce and ation and Opportunity Act Warrior employment training program number 10 Professional Services contract to schneble engineering South PC for Dam inspection and maintenance activities number 11 Jared rist citizen matter is he here oh it is all right and those are all the items so at this time which items was it three four and five I thought number six did someone pull number six no no okay so I'll entertain a motion to no no motion sorry that's Monday night all right so let me hear our citizen matter and then I will come back to Council Member Chelsea Cook.

Yeah just to the CL okay citizen matter as well one delete all right number 10 is a resource all right this one all right good afternoon Council so are we good yeah welcome you have three minutes good to see you thank you good afternoon Council my name is Jared rist I'm a graduate of Riverside High School and Duke's Nicholas School of the environment I'm the son of council member Carl rist but I do not speak for Council Member Carl Rist these comments are my own I came earlier this year to the City Council on May 9th and I'm here for a second time now to speak about Durham's flation program and share updates on a major recent Federal Court ruling as a reminder derms fluoridation program is completely voluntary and within the city's domain Durham currently adds fluoride to our drinking water at a level of 0.7 milligrams per liter this level is the current federal recommended level and water department staff has confirmed that this is this level is their.

Target as discussed in my last visit the EPA was sued in 2017 for a failure to regulate fluide appropriately given cons given concerning evidence that it was causing health effects on September 24th 2024 there was a groundbreaking ruling from the federal judge of the Northern District Court of California who ruled that the current 0.7 milligrams per liter recommended level poses an unreasonable risk to human health citing reduced IQ in children as the health effect as stated in the ruling Studies have linked IQ decrements of even one or two points to reduced educ ation attainment employment status productivity and earned wages that risk unfortunately exists for Durham's children today the takeaway again it is now documented in a federal court that 0.7 milligrams per liter of fluoride which Durham has is not safe enough for human health specifically children so given this ruling I recommend city council work with water management staff and suspend this program immediately until the safety implications are better understood I want to be clear that this.

Ruling has nothing to do with the 2024 presidential election and incoming Administration this is a picture of Judge Edward Shen of the Northern District Court of. California judge Chen was nominated by Barack Obama and was twice rejected by Republicans in the Senate before being confirmed in 2011 judge Chen received senior status in 2012 22 and is a highly respected federal judge he spent seven years beginning in 2017 listening to expert Witnesses and reviewed the science in this case until finally ruling that fluoride posed an unreasonable risk to human health the entire justification for this fluoridation program was science-based in the first place and and now the science is against it so given the new information in this ruling which I printed out the intro and it's 80 pages I printed out seven for yall I I encourage you to look through that and and see the rest of it online I urge the city to remove this risk and ensure safety of our drinking water and take the logical step of suspending or.

Ending the foration program until safety standards are further understood thank you so much thank. You all right I actually have a few speakers here for General comments five first is Minister Paul Scott.

Thank you Mr Mayor mayor Pro Tem Madam city manager I'm here today to address well first of all I want to thank Council Member Chelsea Cook for bringing up the issue in the November work session as we look at another 17y old who lost their life where are these guns coming from so I want to thank council member cook for putting that on the table where are these guns coming from we are losing too many of our young men especially in Durham who are not making it to 18 years old there has to be a reason for that so the question is imperative that we ask where are these guns coming from where are these AR-15s and high powered rifles how are they getting in the hands of children we have to ask these questions it was Dr Martin Luther King who said in his Riverside speech against the war in Vietnam and apparently we have a war going on in the streets of dur it's not the words of our enemies but the silent.

Of our friends that we will remember at election time especially at some point a silence becomes betrayal and we have betrayed the children and Durham it doesn't have to be a EAS the or situation we don't have to choose between bike lanes and trees and saving the squirrels but let's put as much emphasis on that as we put on these young men who are dying in the streets in Durham that seems like almost a weekly basis and I like to close with again urging you like I've been doing since May please look at the T tart Amendment and what they're doing in Baltimore how they're now putting forth that effort because the police department can't actually legally tell you where these guns are coming from and that's under the teart amendment which was by the way endorsed that anti-art amendment was endorsed back in 2019 by vice president Camala Harris just want to go on record saying that and I just want to put that on the table.

But going from Martin Luther King to Hip Hop as I usually do I want to close with the words that I'm feeling sincerely about the attitude towards a young man dying in our streets and the attitude for many in these cities as he said so profoundly in the classic movie boys in the hood either they don't know don't share care or don't show going what's going on the hood thank you thank you next I actually have an online speaker Mr Unknown speaker Langley we have him in Q all right Mr can you hear me yes I can can you hear me yes welcome you have three minutes good afternoon Mr Mayor Mr Mayor Pro Tem members of the Durham city council I'd be remissed if I didn't start my remarks by first congratulating our outgoing city manager Wanda page for her exemplary service professionalism and commitment to the city of Durham thank you so very much for all that you have done in your service to our community to the city Administration and.

I hope you enjoy your retirement the second thing I would like.

To start with is a moment of silence for the young man who lost his life in con Wallace on Tuesday. Night two years ago our police chief Patrice Andrew stood before you all and she said I quote between the ages of 16 and 24 if you are a young black male and you and we're just talking about here in Durham you're either going to be a victim or a suspect a victim or a suspect 16 and 24 and I asked this counsil since our police chief made these remarks what have we strategically done to help these young black men there are many organizations that are doing challenging work in our community the Charles Hamilton Houston Foundation is one of those organizations and I have repeatedly come before this Council requesting support in the in the form of financial investment I can give all my time I can give all of my skill knowledge and expertise to the boys and young men that I work with but ultimately it requires resource and if.

We are not making the investment to give the guide and support resources that our young people need they will continue to feel disconnected from their Community lack a sense of purpose and experience limited opportunities for education and employment despite having a wonderful Community College outstanding universities like North Carolina Central and Duke University right here in our community with over $2 million invested in a semiconductor Institute that is coming here and these are opportunities for young men of color in our community to have meaningful sustainable poverty-free lives but it requires investment and that's what I'm asking of this council is to make the investment we can't keep having moments of Silence we can't keep talking about children diving in bathtubs we can't keep talking about sympathy for families who are experiencing the loss of these young boys we can't keep talking about these things in abstract without leveraging the Innovation and the ability of Durham to lead we lead and we can lead in eliminating the disparities that boys of.

Color face and experience let's do that hard work and I'm willing to work with each of you thank you thank you for your comments. Next I have Mr Isaac. Woods welcome Mr wood good to see you you have three minutes. May you're in hopefully she have oh did everybody hear me congratulations on your 10 city manager and we wish you a great retirement unfortunately it's not a pleasure in my opinion to be here with this matter on this date as you probably received in your email and it was uploaded to the system we're still struggling at Artmore drive on extending City water fire hydr Eco fire protections for all the residents not just part of Artmore drive but the part that really Disturbed me is the retaliation part this this kicked up I on a house a new house we built a 915 Art Drive 2023 the city's Deni a certific appliance your Public Works director wrote a statement which I attached and said the house wasn't in compliance there's no neighborhood Improvement.

Requirements to make a long story short he lied said it was a wall that wasn't in compliance there's no wall I gave you the photos I appreciate council member Freeman for coming out looking at the site she can verify there's no wall that's just one issue then the the other part was the neighborhood co- enforcement people are are scared they said uper management is telling them to do things outside of the city policy so if there's a neighborhood Improvement you know there has to be a notice have to be a hearing has to be a sign post in the yard none of that's happened 30 you to follow City policy the other thing happening is on my other property 5223 after church stroke Public Works pled my sore flushing five hydrant 4 days 1.8 million gallons I told the guy not to do it I called City Hall ask Public Works guy I said look I'm going out of town but I do not need that hose there if you.

Look at your email there's photos I had to spend $85,000 25,000 was for the city fees to extend SE to 53 23 after church road because The cter Condemned the whole property because the sep system wouldn't work this is still the public works Department that's Dy to sck for compliance all because of my outspoken in regards to Artmore drive and the other thing they've started too is they've targeted all the jobs I'm working on as you see in your letter Public Works director he's renovating he revoked to permit after we finish your job he said it was an error nobody's that incompetent we finished your job but just to sum up that's just a small token of what has happened the list is like 10 times more incidents and this retali against me has to stop you wouldn't allow a police officer to come out there and stop and beat up a citizen and take his car without writing the citation or making arrest the same thing here these are code enforcement.

Officials either you write a violation on the house you don't go out there and tell your officers and your employees to Target a person because of they're outspoken for inequality for City water and SE this has to end yes the taxpayers in the cing of the Durham deserve a better counsel and mayor and expect people to be treated equally is a due process violation for you to take my house for a neighborhood Improvement and not issue a citation hopefully the new incoming Bo Ferguson will act on this and I look forward to the mayor and city council having a meeting on this this has been going on for two years thank you very much for your time see him please thank you dere thank you.

Next I have Regina. Mace and after Regina it will be Emily WS so you just come up whenever she's done okay good afternoon mayor good afternoon welcome you have three minutes mayor Pro Tem city council Madam PA wishing you well in your retirement it's never a good thing really when I come up to speak to city council right unfortunately even though I watch y on YouTube when I'm not present it is concerning senior residents at the wited building which is a subsidized residency with an attach Head Start program to the DPS school system a few weeks ago or maybe a month or so ago the water was shut off to the whole building some calls was made the water did get restored hours later about 700 p.m. after being cut off at 10:00 a.m. in the morning again this is a senior residents living they have had two property managers within the past month but multiple over the years and recent just this past week the fire.

Department had to cut come cut B BS off the door because there are doors that should be secured that are not and the VP s had the maintenance Personnel put chains and Bs on the door to where the fire department had them removed just within this past week the residents have came together and organized I know it's very short notice for some and I understand all what's going on in this city and county with Mr Scott and others at this present moment but they will if anyone can come out tomorrow from the hours of 1: to 3: they are ready to meet and they do want it to be acknowledged as they don't want to come like a fisting a fighting pistol they just want some help and some Port so they can live safely the maintenance man maintenance Personnel this morning removed homeless coveries and clothes out of the stair whes and that was part of the reason why the VP requested the Bol to be put on the door but again that.

Is totally against fire Cod so that is just a tidbit of what these seniors that are just trying to live their Glory Days and are currently living under thank you thank you very much doing a little homework on that property and we'll be looking into that thanks for bringing that to my attention our. Attention good afternoon everyone U my name is Unknown (possibly Emily Williams) and I'm the associate pastor for public witness at Trinity Avenue Presbyterian church and I wanted to offer a point of clarification to something that I heard on Monday's city council meeting I was here a few weeks ago with my colleague Grace Wakeman who runs an emergency assistance program through our congregation where we're able to support with assistance for rents and utilities we work closely with coordinated entry or entry point an entity that mayor Williams lifted up as a part of the long Litany of Housing Services that the city is able to provide funding for so their role is eviction diversion diverting people from.

Being launched into the homeless system through onetime assistance when a client is approved for a place a room for rent an apartment coordinated entry would help pay the security deposit and then first in last month's rent they'd also help with travel diversion so if someone lost their housing but they have family in Baltimore they'd be able to get a bus ticket for them to be with family there instead of homeless and Durham so mayor Williams said that the city gave I believe it was $475,000 but I wanted to clarify that that number was to be used over the course of a three-year contract between July 2022 and July 2025 and they officially ran out of funds about 8 months early so back in 22 rent plus a security deposit would be as low as $675 but with how rapidly rent has been rising it's there was there were times that it was upwards of $3,000 and so when entry point got down to its final $3,000 they only used it.

For buying people tickets to leave Durham only used it for travel diversion funds but now they're officially out of funds and will have no more rent assistance or eviction diversion funds or even travel funds until July 2025 and so between the two bonds the upcoming County revaluation of the property the city and county both passing budgets that will require property tax increases that will then be passed to renters I'm really nervous that we're about to see a lot of displacement and an increase of folks entering the homeless system in the coming year and so our churches rent and utility assistance program has seen a significant uptick in folks needing eviction diversions but we're only donations based and we're hustling our congregation for funds but we cannot do this alone and so we rent we know that rent assistance and eviction diversions are some of the best tools in our tool belt to be able to prevent evictions in the first place to be able to prevent people from entering the.

System at all we know it's a Band-Aid as long as rents continue spiking but in a crisis you really need Band-Aids on hand so whatever we can do to keep folks from entering the homeless system at all for next year is something that I really I think we need to find emergency funds for and so if there are any funds to get us through at least July 2025 and Beyond if there's any where we can find funding for this I ask that we try to find a solution thank you thank you and thanks for your contribution to that and to be clear I'm referencing the long list of resources we do have I also homelessness is very important it's also Al amongst a long list of important issues and we have several resources of funding that is coming into the city so I I just won't allow a binary approach to this conversation but we're doing what we can even with you know sharing this responsibility with our County.

Colleagues as well as our schools and yeah we we're doing a lot and we're going to try and do more and I just I'm going to protect the Integrity of the work that the city is doing so I appreciate all of the private entities that are especially what Miss wooks just referenced the private entity that are doing this good work as well so I think the request is you know if we can do more than we you know hope hopefully we can I I agree with that but I I I I won't have this conversation without Nuance being appreciated so I want to make sure that we all always have room for that all right those are all of the speakers that I have okay okay council member C I know you wanted to discuss something before council member cier left thank you Mr Mayor so as many has as has come up many times and and I'm just speaking as someone who works in this field but also as a.

Liaison to our homelessness Services advisory committee and somebody who's just out in the community there have been a lot of concerns about the city's halting the handing out of tents which for a policy regarding those tents and as I think it's been made clear in several presentations that we've had before the city and this data is all available online we do not have capacity at this time to shelter all of the folks who have sought shelter so we are well aware well away from being able to shelter all of the folks who have been self-reported as unsheltered at this time but we do also have quite a long line of people waiting to get into the shelters that we do have and we know that we are getting to the holiday season and also that the temperatures are dropping so what has been asked by the community and I'm going to Echo here today is that we do allow for the city to hand out tents as we were doing.

Before I know that there is a some work being done towards a policy around that so is my request that we remove the ban on handing out tents until that policy is in place and I also would like to see both Community Development heart and other interested City departments to work with haste towards developing such a policy I would like to see it ideally before the next work session and and more or just understand why that has not happened as of yet I do think that that policy has been in the works for a couple of months at this time and unfortunately this is just such an emergency right now when it gets cold outside we all understand what happens we open warming shelters when people lose power and that sort of thing but if you do not have a blockade from the wind it is extremely extremely dangerous so this is something that we have the the capacity to do at this time and and again I know.

That there's a policy in the works and I'm not trying to overshadow that I just would like the band to be removed up until that policy is. Developed Council M cook bought this to my attention I said I definitely let us let her bring it up amongst us they just and I share with council member cook some of my obviously we want to make sure people are sheltered in addition to this this topic I would invite our churches I know in my office has been working with several churches through deactivate Durham initiative in Red Cross to have more doors opened so that we we have some churches that are as Miss wils just stated a few minutes ago that are doing a lot of amazing work but we the city itself does not have the capacity right now but we have a lot of folks in the community some people from the heart team I believe was providing tents as just as a a triage response the city itself as a whole does.

Not just give out tents but there were some folks in that were actually trying to to do what they could in the moment so in the in the same vein I want to make sure that we are inviting especially our our clergy Community to to Really expand in this space as well and that it will be greatly supported by our White Flag initiative that the city officially has as a response so I I don't foresee us putting a barrier in the place of the community work that's already been done I definitely support that Council M I've told you so but I I want to make sure that I you know speak publicly about our clergy Community expanding themselves as a resource as well just wanted to say that while you're here I know you're doing the Housing Initiative so yeah yeah so is the idea that we would do like as a stop Gap until a policy comes forward so just go ahead and allow them yeah that was exactly my request.

Yes yeah let's do that Kei Mr Chadwell would you please approach and talk about the status of the encampment policy the policy draft. And while he's coming up I also want to make sure that it's it's we have an encampment policy we're not trying to establish encampments across the entire city we're just trying to to my understanding address an immediate need amongst a few individuals go ahead good afternoon Keith chw City manager's office it is true that a a fairly comprehensive policy associated with encampments that would involve something associated with tents has been drafted and we've completed a a process of internal review of several stakeholding departments to try to come to that point we have not yet to the point of urgency scheduled a follow-up meeting so that that there can be an internal collaboration in that space this is not to represent that processes and unintended outcomes are more important than the urgency of is being stated however there are many solutions that have come to our way.

That are that can be put into place with relative ease as our processes go sometimes in government however through resources through a lot of the study and research and the kinds of things we've done to take a look at the efficacy of many of myriad of these responses the Simplicity that's implied by some of the Urgent matters wind up being a resource challenge not yet defined so we do want to find the The Sweet Spot that addresses the urgency and some of the more complex items that certain decisions we making that come with it this is not a statement for against tents however when you know the tents are issued in great volumes and all those kinds of things as it relates to certain kinds of things associated with encampments and the like when they are left where they placed we have a resource issue with respect to how is how how do we resolve the existence of the tent when the tips are absented I don't mean for.

That to be a statement again counter to the issuance of it when the urgency is is is is nearly upon us but we do think it's worth an effort to try and manage certain outcomes of the kinds of things that we're applying and giving the dir of resources that unfortunately we do have we think there's some things we can respond to in that space and relative of the urgency we certainly plan to make it much more urgency to finish the deliberative processes that we need to do to bring forth the policy that is quite imminent the drafting itself is done and we've gotten the input that we've asked so I will be working with the Community Development Department to make sure we advance that cause just as rapidly as.

Possible thank Mr May thank you TCM Chad well yeah I I support my college Council M cook this is a this is not a new issue we' hearing about this own Council for probably a couple months at least and I understand this is a complicated matter with tents there's no simple solution but I do think as I as I said at one of our Council meetings right after November election I think part of our challenge in communities like Durham is to make in this in this new context is to make government work better for our citizens and so I look I this is we're hair on fire in terms of folks who are who are having challenges with homelessness and being and experiencing homelessness and so I think I think having a allowing tents until we get that policy in place is something I would support because it's such a critical need and I think we it just shouldn't take so long to get a policy.

Written so I I feel like we need to push the envelope here and and really do everything we can to address what really is an issue that's kind of hair on fire thank you quick I'm I'm coming to you Joel when we say community who we who do we have individuals that we can identify that we've had conversations with and to and OB to my colleagues to staff if we identify let's say 50 more people is there a resource we can direct them to right now that they be that they would be addressed relative to tents or if I if I went outside and grabbed 50 people right now that was experiencing homelessness where could I take them right now well there's a dir of resources for Sheltering tents is is is really an iteration of Sheltering in in in in its realistic sense and at the moment I understand that once upon a time tents were being issued I have no knowledge of the resource that we used.

To even to to to get them I don't I don't know how we got them we got them and and we got them out so I I don't stand ready to understand how we replicate that and until the until we're press to to to consider it in in different ways I don't know what budgetary resources was used to to to acquire them and well let me go here first then I'll come over okay go ahead because you responded to me. Right I realize thank thank thank you colleagues so I was I was the hsac representative for years and let me first say I I I'm glad of the council member cook is our aack representative I know the work she does in her in her regular life outside of City Hall in the passion she brings we'll make sure that we focus on the right questions and the appropriate level of humanity will be maintained so I'm glad that she's representing us at 8ac I the the the there there are there are.

Challenges that our homeless population face under and this is a terrible framing but Reg circumstances when we cross the threshold of a white night when when the temperature drops you don't need to be outside period and I know one of the conversations we had things that came up with the tents were their structures they their their structures and and there were some Indemnity issues we talked about because of if if a fire started in a tent is it will it will it give us permission to kind of take our foot off the gas and doing the things that we need to do which is rapid rehousing more resources for shelters and would it be encouraging or even creating outcomes that we did not want to happen with tents when you cross a certain temperature you don't need to be outside in a tent we we need to have Emergency Shelters we need to have emergency contingencies to bring everybody inside now there are some folk and those of us that have done the point.

And count who do not want to go we we you get into issues are forcing people and where're you know the dur police department and I'm want to be clear the dur police department does not go and and bust up encampments I remember when we had open table Ministry visiting encampment sites that justes that's not our policy but so so I I understand the the the the inclination to want to while this policy is being reviewed do a stop Gap measure I don't know how long much longer it is in the policy to to come forward but in so far as tents are are are structures they're meant to be occupied all of the life things that come with occupancy attend those tents and we've seen some issues so we don't as a city we don't want to cause more problems than we're fixing one and two if we give you a tent I don't want that to be to to send a message that on a night that it's below freezing well we.

Gave you a tent you need to use your tent to be outside no you don't need to be outside so tents are good for a certain situation certain you know vicissitude of being outside but if we're concerned about the weather dropping the last thing we want are people intense when it's 20 degrees outside we need to be working on our resources to make have Emergency Shelters and bring them in so I I'm I'm in agreement with you know doing what we can do but if the problem we're trying to fix is particularly cold weather then I don't think a tent is the answer we need to be doubling down on rapid rehousing doubling down on emergency shelter doubling down on on getting folk indoors because it's just dangerous there's no heating or Plumbing or air conditioning in those tents and I don't want to send the message that this is our response for inclement weather whatever that's worth thank you Mr Mayor counc recovery thank you I appreciate everyone's comments just really.

Quick I think what would be helpful is to I don't think anyone's suggesting that folks should go out or you know stay out in cold weather we have a white flag night shelter Open Table Ministries holding that at at Yates Baptist Church I think the issue right now is that our our our wait lists are so long that we're in a critical crisis moment and so my suggestion is until we get a policy back if we could do for the next 30 days suspend whatever I'm not sure what paused the tent giving like I don't know what happened there I just know it paused and so if we could unpause that for the next 30 days there is a group of individuals based on the conversation that was had at Joint City County last week that are meeting that does include City staff and County staff specifically to put forward some kind of mid-budget crisis solution for some of the issues that we are seeing it's it's not longterm and so until that comes forward.

And we know what those asks are going to be I think it could be helpful at this point what happens if you are unsheltered in our community and you can't get into the shelter it's not freezing every night but it's wet in the winter right now it's it's not just about temperatures it's just about how miserable people are out there and we aren't doing our responsibility we aren't meeting where people are need to be because we don't have shelter beds for them like that's been said over and over and over again if it is above 35 or it's 42 and it's raining and you can't go to the shelter regardless if even if you want to go to the shelter you there's really not very many places for you to go and until we can fix that I do think we need to be able to offer people some comfort out there so that's where I'm at and I understand that we don't want to be in that space forever.

But for the next 30 whatever whatever we decide on timing and maybe if we can put some real time on it like we've got to do something in the next 30 days there has to be something that comes back from staff in the next 30 days because we can't go through the winter right now with the weight lists that we have and expect people to just sit out in the rain and to be miserable thank you Adam manager come to you in a second thank you thank you for the opportunity to speak speak very briefly I'm going to enter some comments that hopefully are a little bit clar clarifying regarding the communication that has occurred today the the the home the encampment policy that our community engages is a hsac policy it is it is not a city of Durham government policy it is not a county of Durham government policy it is a policy of the h sa the homeless Services advisory committee whenever you and that committee encompasses.

3540 providers of services to the people in our community that need multiple Services they may need a tent but they need many other housing related shelter related services so whenever there is a policy that has been generated by the community and the providers that provide services in that Community there is a certain amount of Engagement that does need to take place as that complete policy is being is being updated and it does need to be updated it was it was it was a policy that came before my tenure as city manager there were providers in the system that are in the system now that were not there when the policy was actually created as we talk here about someone rece receiving a tent that is a as Keith has mentioned that is a component of shelter for people who don't have shelter but it is it is a component it is not the complete policy you know policy Provisions that help us manage any component of that policy whether you know whether it is.

You know RightWay management or other things that safety other things that come into play when you have people who are unable to be who are not sheltered or who are unable to be sheltered so there is a there is a date that the committee is going to bring back another policy for the community to consider it is not a policy that has to be approved by the City Council or approved by the County Commission is it is an hsac policy but it is hopefully a policy our community has rallied around and agrees is an appropriate approach to the problem that we really have so I said a lot of words but I really wanted it to show that when we say staff when we say staff we do administer the we do Administration for the homeless Services Continuum of Care here in Durham but it is it is not solely the city who is involved in in making these decisions if if as Keith has said I am not 100% of where.

The tents that were being presented where they came from Who provided them as donations but I'm certain that there's some staff members that that know that but I I don't want too much emphasis to be on the city giving out tents because this is a system and I'm certain certain that you know we cannot control whether or not people provide tents to to Residents just like can't control when people give food or other Provisions to people so I did want to kind of make bring that point to the table it's sort of a side point but I thought it is important for us to do that but more importantly we do you do need to know as the elected body the county needs to know who provides resources significant resources into the system when there's changes or major changes that are going to be adopted by the homeless Services advisory committee as a policy so thank you for allowing me to make those statements yeah that's M Baker I.

Think a A lot's been said so I don't want to add too much more because I agree with a lot of my colleagues including Mr Mayor protm I think who who's emphasizing the the long-term needs of our community I do want to speak in favor of of my colleague chela cook who sits on hsac and and her request so I support I support that request I also think under the incoming Federal Administration this is going to be a growing problem for our community and there's going to be this continued need to coordinate deeply with the county in coming up with Comprehensive Solutions so for now as we go into this this winter break it's it's not a proud moment in society to talk about the need for tents but it sounds like something that that is necessary at this moment so so the request is to allow what was happening to continue happening whatever that was that's correct yeah just a just a lift on on any ban of handing out tents.

From any departments that are requested until we get a policy on the books and then also my secondary request was just that we work with some urgency but I understand what the manager saying that it's a it's a in-depth Community conversation and so it it might be longer but I would I just don't want there to be a ban on that potential shelter while we are in the process of developing and and I understand what's been said and of course I don't think we want to encourage that as our and there are so many conversations and I want to say outwardly that I am part of many of those conversations not all of them and I know a lot of my colleagues are working on this too and I I understand that it takes a long time and I do not think that anyone's goal on this council is to have people living in tense Mary said it the other night we don't want that in our city but the truth of the.

Matter is that white flag only kicks in when it's under 32 degrees or 37 degrees with precipitation and it's extremely extremely difficult and dangerous to be unsheltered even in temperatures that are above that so that's my request so there is there a ban there's I wasn't familiar with a ban go ahead thank you Mr Mayor the city of Durham does not have a ban on giving out tints and I think the manager rightly this might be a better conversation for eight saac but I do want to you know in the spirit of this conversation the city of Durham hasn't ban tense but if we're just talking 30 days we own a lot of real estate I mean if we want to go bold why don't we ask General services to identify real estate where folk in sleep or let's ask our friends at DPS to open the school gymnasiums at night for the next 30 days and whatever the challenges are whatever arguments we come up with remember there are equal.

Arguments for people intense as well so let us not now start exercising the challenges and the indemnity issues we City Hall is empty in the evenings I mean if if we want to go hard you know we own a lot of real estate so I just put that out there and if it's just 30 days that's not a long time right we can we can get our friends at DPS to use schools for 30 days or we got empty buildings where we park trucks and and offices as a city maybe we should should look at that thank you Mr Mayor yeah go ahead Mr Ferguson good afternoon both Ferguson Deputy City Manager for Public Safety so I just had some information that I think has been questioned at at the DI and I wanted to just make sure all the council members had it my understanding of the background of this is that the Community response teams as part of the heart program did acquire with city funding with their departmental budget.

Some tents that they were handing out when they found unhoused neighbors who did not have shelter and either requested or seemed as though they would benefit from the shelter I don't think it was a pervasive program but it was something that was happening and it was not something that was explicitly budgeted for by Council discussed with Council the city manager's office was not aware of it that does not mean that that they required our permission to do it but I think it became something that was of interest and concern among members of hsac but the the the recommendation came forward from the Continuum of Care that it be paused because I think there were some policy concerns amongst ASAC that it may May complicate the the system that hsac is attempting to to manage for the city and that the different partners participate in those are the the partners that that all have I believe the same goal of of serving this population Cil member cook I was on the ASAC meeting yesterday.

And this was discussed and I did not hear hsac come forward with a specific recommendation and so I just wanted to represent that that ASAC has had a conversation about this right now the prohibition that has been that has been given to the heart team to not distribute T was in response to that direction that came out of hsac in the first place it was made in the manager's office it was a conversation that we had and shared with Hart Hart has complied with that and I wanted to share that aack did have a conversation about the distribution of tents it was the conversation I heard yesterday and please correct me if I misrepresented it was that was that staff would be returning to hsac with a final proposal around tense and the AAC would make a decision and a recommendation at that point that does not is not binding on the council at this point but I wanted you to have that information so just to clarify so what.

I'm hearing is that that hsac is responsible for creating the policy happy holidays hsac is responsible for creating the policy for encampments in dur is that correct and that dep man fuson so but as you just described hsac is waiting for staff to provide input to hsac regarding that policy so if I did I get that correct I I I do not want to speak for for Colin Davis who's the homeless services manager he he's been more intimately involved in that conversation my takeaway from the board meeting yesterday is that they is that haack's policy committee would be making a recommendation and it I don't want to speak to whether or not they are waiting on the city or whether or not it is they have the information they need all all I can verify for a certain is that the decision has not been made yet there has not been an opinion rendered by the policy committee about how they feel about the distribution so so this in theory then this this policy committee.

With within hsac would recommend to the full hsac is that correct yes then hsac would make the decision yes so I guess my only question is so as the hsac hsac rep other folks in h can we get some clarity on when like when hsac we need to set a Target right when will hsac make a decision on this that's so I appreciate your comments again the point is can we get some clarity on when when asack will make a decision on this Madam manager so so often you know when when these when these processes are you know they involve a lot of parties and and and sometimes the city the administrative the administrative staff that provide support to the hsac which is those are volunteers those are people who who work you know in in in in help in their committees in order to advance causes and homelessness the the folks who are paid for to to work in the homeless and manage the Continuum of Care they are city of Durham employees.

They work in the Community Development Department and there's a homeless services manager so often some of the Drafting and and some of the research and some of the data that is needed in order for the policy to you know have all of the parts and pieces to it it does involve heavily the the city or it could involve the county and that's how it how it overlaps for example in the encampment policy there there there responsibilities in that policy that may be responsibilities of of the Durham Police Department or of the fire department or of the General services department or or or RightWay management folks so you know you you when you talk about you know the hsac sort of in its own role completing a policy you cannot it cannot be done without having the collaboration of the other parties that have to administer the policy and and they have been administering you know a a version of it for many many years so that's why it.

Is it is it takes a lot of voices but it still needs to be updated and finished and this you know tent or are tents permitted and where they're permitted and who purchases them and who hands them out all of that that's the implementation of the policy so that it can be you know it can be orderly if if you will so thank you so I'm going to say this I based on what I'm hearing there are a lot of there are a lot of folks that are playing a role in in this situation we have an entire Continuum of Care I believe you all as staff have the urgency that we we need to address this right now from AAC to the county to all of the other parties that are involved colleagues I am going to request that we allow staff to do what they need to do with urgency to address this but I don't want to have this this conversation in isolation because I that for me even.

There's a lot more information I don't know how many people were talking about Community is a broad term and also we have I don't want to get in the point of duplication and I heard the word budget a few minutes ago as well so I I I don't want to start getting into new policym while there's policym already already being drafted and putting dollars behind it without definitive information so I'm a little concerned about that I'm okay with supporting us you know asking staff to bring us back some information within a certain time frame I'm a little uncomfortable with starting to take action right now when there are so many parts that are contributing that aren't here right now in this conversation and when the homeless portfolio is also in the county but we have Community Development as well and of our other partners so I I'm I'm going to request that our staff you know get on this but I'm uncomfortable with us moving forward right now on anything go ahead yeah I.

Appreciate you saying that and I I would like to say that I know that some time frames came up in the conversation but my initial ask was twofold it was to lift the ban on handing out tents for the city departments and then have the and then direct everyone to act with urgency and and I specifically did not put a time frame on it because I have been part of those conversations and I know that they are ongoing I do want to clarify that the tent issue was.

Brought up as a public comment in haac there wasn't in In My Memory a full conversation about that but I do know that that directive as Deputy city manager just stated did come from the city and so that is that is the directive that I am concerned about so that is those are my two asks that just while we're waiting for this policy to be developed that we remove that directive and allow sort of the as it was happening before whatever the and I understand that it was like within a limited context that those tents were handed out but if somebody comes up and needs it in an emergency situation asks for it or if a if a community care worker sees that that is a need that they be allowed to hand out those resources and then we just get with urgency the policy I think that's been made very clear that that and I think it's urgent for all of the groups that are also working on that policy as.

Well okay and I believe staff you all hear what we're saying I don't think we need to take any formal action or anything did you have your in up this process question yeah yeah the per Deputy manager designate Ferguson's comments it it it sounds like eight saac talked about this and it was a atack request that the city was responding to I I I want to be careful I don't want to exercise a deao veto o over over eight saac if if the the process was eight saac express some concern and and if it emanated from a public comment asack expressed some concern and and then our management directed The Heart team we have jurisdiction over the heart team but this conversation is kind of morph because if if we're talking about the weight list of unsheltered people the heart team situationally passing out tents at as they come across scenarios is not addressing that weight list that is not an answer to a response to the the issue of homelessness r large in the.

City I think it's a great thing that the the our heart team has you know the resources and the wherewithal to do that situationally as they're dispatched but that is not by no means a macro response one and two if if ATAC asked us to hold off on that in in their setting in their formal setting where all of the parties were present I I you know I I we have a representative to eight saac which is suggest that we are you know we believe in the system that they have we are part of that fabric we you know we bring our ball to the the game and our our Jacks to the game and we we make decisions collaborative collaboratively with the rest of our partners if asack has spoken then I I'm not sure you know what what what message we're sending is it a a veto no we're going to do it anyway or and I see you approaching the I wanted to clarify that that I I do not believe hsac.

Formally requested the tent process to stop members of hsac who had concerns about the policy expressed those current concerns to staff and staff made the recommendation to stop the policy until they could get more direction from AAC so I just I wanted to clarify that I don't believe hsac took formal action to request that the tent District contribution stopped I think given the fact that there is a certain amount of policy presumed in handing out tents and that it was not something that hsac had vetted that we thought it was reasonable based on the fact that there were concerns in the community of homeless service providers that it be paused until clarification could be sought so I just wanted to clarify I don't think ASAC took formal vote to say that they wanted the city to stop doing this but that members of ASAC who are who are very engaged in providing these Services had concerns about the implications of the policy and that furthers my point but you found those concerns compelling.

Enough to actually absent an hsac official vote you found those concerns compelling enough to to take action the recommendation of the homeless services manager was to to stop that action and that was reviewed in the city manager's office and concurred gotcha thank you Mr May okay let's let's I believe staff has heard us I'm go ahead I I just wanted to just be clear if manager Deputy manager P Deputy manager Ferguson could be clear would there be a negative implication for a staff person on the heart team to pass out a tent today so if they if they felt like it was necessary as a care worker we established if they felt like they should pass out attemp would they be dinged or fired or would there be a negative repercussion for them at this very moment they're they are under Direction not to distribute tents and and that would be the issue in that the people in the community who need the tents who or the people who are on the.

Ground who are saying that people need the tents have figured out a way to provide the tents and we're saying that hsac appointed members on a board who are coming up with a policy should prevent that from happening is problematic and so I do want to be clear like the reason we have the heart team in place is to be able to respond as necessary and if their response is being blocked administratively because of like it just feels like we're running in a circle it's there's not going to be a a policy in the next week or two there's not going to be a policy in the next month if any member of the heart team felt like they should provide someone a tent I'm very clear that those are well-trained people who understand what is going on in our community they understand the needs of the people in our community and especially people who are unhoused and unsheltered as of this point they should be allowed to provide.

The tent and that's just the Bas like Baseline of it on the other side of it as I heard Council Member Chelsea Cook State this was a a point that was raised by a public member and a few members of hsac having a a concern around it does not mean you should ban the workers from providing it I think there should be more conversation and so before the ban even went into effect there should have been conversation whether it was with AAC or with Council or whomever but I don't think that it's appropriate to tell our heart team staff not to pass out tents that's just so I I think there are a lot of repc there are a lot of repercussions that can come from action either way we could end up creating a tent city in the middle of downtown we could duplicate our Continuum of Care Services with tents we could take advantage of exist take advantage of as mayor Pro Tem stated existing real estate or infrastructures with Community.

Partners it appears that we have a system in place that can respond to this and it also appears that we are getting really close to taking some formal action that that's in place of almost what's already happening so I am I am going to ask that we provide staff the ability to address this how they best see Fed I for me do we know how many people because I I for for me personally it it sounds like we are speaking in in very broad terms do we know how many people do we know who they are and I think if we got to hard numbers we could probably better address this rather than just discussing the idea of it so do we Deputy city manager do we know that has that been discussed do we know those details so obviously staff was not prepared for this conversation today exactly yeah you know if I in order to answer any more specific questions I I feel strongly that that the the homeless services manager should.

Be available to council and and if there's a Time we can make him available but I don't want to represent numbers or any of the data this you know I've provided as much of the process as I recall from conversations I've been in but it's certainly possible that some of those facts need to be clarified so I would recommend that that you allow us to to have staff be more available to to answer those questions at the manager's discretion yeah manager page are you all able to have an immediate meeting with with Hart to to get some more definitive information so you all can make making an administrative decision on how to address this I do not want Council making a hard actionable decision without definitive details and it cannot be based on what someone just said on yeah go ahead so so one of the one of the things you know we we're talking about information known and some you know information unknown when when someone is.

Seen with a tent that tent could have come from a good you know a good citizen it could have come from anywhere it does doesn't necessarily have to come from you know a tent that you know was was purchased as a provision like other things that that the heart team has purchased with their operating budget and handed out as they feel appropriate so you know the the direction that we went and that we have jurisdiction over here is whether or not we will direct our staff to provide tents as part of the visions that they they're providing at this moment I don't know if they have tents I don't know anything about the details around where the number of tents that they were they were helping certain people with I I don't have that I don't have that here so to say they can start it back at a particular time it would not be it would not be good for us to try to do that here.

Because the you know we we we don't I don't think we have enough enough information to do it I Council I don't have any issue with your request I I just want to have to go and what they need to do I I don't I don't even think it's a policy discussion I think the policy is being worked on the action itself I don't see it being a big issue just if somebody needs a resource and we have it then just go for it but I I I think we are almost at a point of killing the mosquito with an axe at this point on this on this topic so yes yeah thank you I I just want want to say this is I appreciate the question we know these numbers so this is not this is not new at the Joint City County meeting last week coordinate entry shared the numbers 51 family this is the week of December 2 2024 51 families reported being unsheltered 50 single adults reported being unsheltered that's that's.

Roughly the numbers that's the numbers you're seeing as well so so we know the numbers and I think the frustration is we've been having this conversation for several months now and so we just have to like we have to expedite this if it's aack making the policy we've got to expedite this process it's simply we can't keep saying we don't know the numbers because we know the numbers yeah no that's that's fine I I'm I'm not questioning that I mean for me I'm who came downstairs to Heart asking then I mean we have X amount of Numbers number of families who' requested you know support of who self-identified as homeless and then we have whoever came asking for attent I'm looking there's something you can some things you just don't need to bring to the council and I also believe staff can handle like we don't have to direct someone to do it if they if it's easy enough for them to just handle the situation so it's two different two different capacities in.

Which I'm talking about we have the numbers that were presented and families in Durham that are self-identified as homeless and then we have whoever asked for a tent it's for me it's not that big of a deal just give them a tent if they we have a tent to give to them but also at the same time when we speak we speak in policy which turns into law which comes into which turns into a practice you know so that's I'm also trying to make sure that we are not duplicating services and then we're losing accountability of the services that we already have in place because someone said something and I want to make sure that we are actually working in definitive numbers not broadly but very specifically to this this issue and then also broader reaction so I'm going to get us moving WR I think staff have has direction from us man manager do you need any clarification of H how to respond to the situation do.

Do you speak the heart and say hey look how many people came do you give them a tent don't give them ATT whatever it is but we there's a lot of folks that are playing a part in this conversation and the reason why I wanted this on the The Joint City count although I wasn't here the reason why I wanted this on the agenda last week at Joint City C is because I wanted to know also not only what the city is doing but what the county is doing and all of the partners just always bring up the Continuum of Care Network and the services that are provided because we often talk in assumptions and I I we're not going to do that we're not going to just assume so I want to make sure we're dealing with definitive answers definitive information so that we can make accountable actions so to just clarify the point that is of concern is around our staff and Direction and making sure that that's not a harm in.

Providing a service that they're supposed that they were hired to do which is to respond in those crisis and so I just want to make sure that it's clear it has nothing to do with policy numbers all that's just staff and that should not be a policy where we're deeming them you know negatively like in a crisis responding to the needs of someone who is unsheltered or on house that's just my whole thing yeah okay I'm going to get us moving along I am staff I'm going to ask that you all address the situation and let us know how you respond to it with urgency yes sir yes ma'am I understand that we would like to move but I just want to make sure that there is Clarity because I had the two points and I want to make sure that we're not meeting again and I respectfully I'm also would like to take some time off over the holidays and also our manager is taken some time off and so I want to.

Make sure that we have clear guidance from this which is it sounds like everyone is on board with the heart workers handing out tensive they deemed that to be a necessity for the time being it sounded like every almost everyone was in support of that and I just want to make sure that that is clear that they are going to be able to hand out and I understand that we are looking for more information I understand that we are working on a policy but I want to make sure that it's clear that folks will not be penalized for handing out those if they deem it to be a necessary part of their function yeah point of order yeah and real quick I I don't think that's the issue I I don't even know if I don't know one handing out tense in scope of not in scope of work I don't even know if they have the tents maybe they do if they did that's fine so I I want to make sure.

That we are not operationalizing it that's why I that's why I don't think it's a big I don't think it's that big of a deal that they're doing KN that and I think staff hears us if you're looking for clarity I staff is the only ones that can answer that question so and and yeah I have a point point of order this is a work session we we don't issue Fiats or directives at work sessions we we can agree to put something on the agenda for further consideration that one this also was brought up under the the rubric of other matter and and you know other matter it it it's a work session we we we have to suspend the rules even take votes at work sessions so this is not in my assessment the appropriate form to issue director to the staff moreover you know there's two conversations going on here there's a conversation about the numbers about unsheltered people in the city but a 911 generated response from the heart.

Team is not part of our homeless strategy the these tents are being passed out by heart situationally so that that we're conflating and over our our our strategy for addressing the unsheltered with the excellent work that our heart team work if heart the heart team is not going to solve a homeless issue in Durham so I I don't want us to pretend that even if we lifted the ban that that that how somehow is addressing those overall numbers it's per chance the heart team may encounter one of those numbers we documented or they may encounter numbers that haven't even been documented there might be a situational homelessness situation that that they encounter I also want to say with respect to the staff you know we seven we we meet what a couple times a month this staff deals with this stuff in real time every day every week and they're a committed group of professionals and staff responds to request from County and a friend at DPS.

All the time every day oh nuts and bolts down in the weed stuff that we don't even read about in our packets that we get so I I want to be careful that we we honor the work I I believe the decision that was made by staff was done in good faith they were talking to other professionals and other committed people in eights act and their decision was made within a professional bubble so they're all professionals down there as well and they were responding I believe that the decision the decision was made in good faith finally I want to raise again if y'all are really this concerned we got real estate open ordered the city to open up some of our buildings for 30 days however long it is and let folks sleep there after business hours we can do that thank you Mr May okay which is my point I I think staff has received our Direction Madam manager do you have the preference of the council which I know your respons is.

You're going to need to get more information we we're yeah we're not in a position to definitively react on this right now so to concern the concern is heard staff you've heard the concern address the best way you all can and let us know what the response is we're not the managers we're the. Councel and Council I want to make sure that you your your point is heard that's why I wanted to make sure we discussed it for staff to hear but I I I think that's as far as we can go on it today I guess I mean just if I one final point so it's clearly we're the polic making body not we don't execute the work here I think what's to me what seems to be a question here is like is the policy to allow tents being given out or not right that is a policy question so I don't know if we you want to suggest we put this on the agenda to.

Have a a decision on that but that would seem like a perfect item for the for the council to discuss and make decisions and votes at work sessions but it seems like a perfect policy question for this Council to explore that would be the appropriate Avenue and I think that's what so un unarm like just kind of alarming is that when it's an emergency we've in the past suspended the rules and voted in work session to move grants forward we've suspended the rule in work session to move different items forward but for this there's no sense of urgency enough to say we just need to be able to make a definitive answer whether we suspend the rules and vote or not because I understand this is work session but the thing is I think that if if five of us or four of us understand that staff should not be penalized for passing out tents that is the question that is the main thing that I'm hearing from Council Member Chelsea Cook.

There's no disagreement on whether the policy should be developed I'm I'm lost on why we're not moving forward on staff should not be penalized for you might be lost because there there wasn't a request to take a vote there there was a request to lift the V like just don't ban and which I didn't even know there was a ban and there's a there's a request to more well the two things that Council M cook spoke about but we anytime we suspended the rules to take action in the past we had information there's this was Council Member Chelsea Cook and I spoke about this which she spoken to some of you all as well and I I agreed that we would you know bring it up so staff can make sure they heard our concern but I think that we've evolved into the expectation of taking some formal action without information being available and I think that's irresponsible so I I the concern has been heard we've discussed.

It way longer than I thought we were going to but it is important but I I don't think the expectation was us for to suspend the rules and take action on something that information is not even present for we know how many people yes brly but that's why I was asking the question like what with with heart how many people came up what you know how many people gave a that's fine you know what the number doesn't even matter I think staff has heard the cons heard the preference of the council and now we need the trust staff to move forward there there is no formal action for us to take and I think if we start getting in in the in the in the practice of suspending the rules to take action on something that hasn't been defined I I honestly don't even know what a motion would be at this point you know I think that this request has been heard we've pretty much all agreed that staff police.

Take action urgently with the situation around you know people being unsheltered that means that there is a network that we've already established that is policy that is practice that we need to activate that includes hsac that includes the County Community Development the city heart police and whoever else so I there there is nothing to suspend the rules and take action on I wouldn't be very clear I did not make a motion I was I was asking for this body to give guidance to the manager's office that we would like that band lifted I also do not want to put this on the agenda because I know that it's in the works I'm not trying to write that encampment policy because I know that it is already being worked on so that was my ask was that we give guidance to the manager's office that that ban be lifted until we get that policy in effect and it sounds like that is the guidance that has been given I'm just confirming that that is how everyone.

Else has interpreted that what point of clarification my point of order to the the members of the heart team are not using their own resources to secure tents they they they are being issued equipment so in effect to say that we're lifting a ban would would further imply that we are we are ordering staff to provide them with those resources the member of a heart team wanted to go out and buy a tent and keep it in there and give it on their own yeah I don't I don't think they'd be dinged and they members of the community but this is not just saying you can't use a tool in your tool belt we give them the tools so and and I you know I I yeah this this this just first off and to my a point of order this is a work session no one's offered a motion to suspend the rules and council member Freeman's point she's right we do suspend the rules almost exclusively.

When the staff ask us so if we respect the staff then I think we should respect their decision now it was not made in a in a in a vacuum it was made in consultation with other professionals there's a policy coming forward from ASAC and and I'll say here from today is If a member of our heart team has a tent and they give somebody a tent they should not be danged that is a different matter from the city of Durham issuing them tents to give out so we we we need to be clear about that as well thank you Mr Mayor move on good so I'll just say a few final words I I think that the the relationships and the Partnerships that we have in the homeless Services advisory committee the the members of the heart team had believed that having tents as part of their Provisions was something that they that would help the community and therefore when they purchased supplies and those kinds of things they.

Had the tents the reason that the pause was made was a recommendation from the folks that work in that community that there should be more policy around the distribution of tents so we we accepted that we accepted that recommendation because it came from the people who actually served the community that we're talking about here it wasn't a punitive thing that we were trying to do we were not we were not you know upset with our employees our employees were actually wanting to to be and do the things that the regular homeless Services advisory committee believes is beneficial to that to that community so that's why they are not doing it what I don't know here today and I don't know if Deputy manager Ferguson knows whether they even have tents I don't even knowuh I didn't see oh okay but I don't I I I don't want it to be unclear as to what our employees I mean these are employees that work for us what they should be doing when they.

Go out to do their job afternoon mayor Williams mayor proen members of council Madam manager Ryan Smith director of the community safety department Community safety department does have a small supply of tents remaining that we have not issued I do not know off the top of my head what that inventory is we had purchased some that we left in our inventory so we do have a small Supply I could find out the exact number I do not know it standing here I I I think it's been very made very CLE clear no one is GNA get fire for giving out a tent you all have resources you've been empowered to do that and I think you know staff has made that clear as well so I I don't know what more we are have are expecting to do today I think we're ready to move on thank you did you turn that mic off for me but don't go too far because we are now on item number.

Three and council member ciero left she writes down my numbers did you get them okay all right and I just assumed the Council Member Chelsea Cook pulls everything so I don't know who pulled it if it oh who pull it council member Baker good after afternoon mayor Williams mayor Pro Tem Middleton council members Madam manager Unknown speaker director of the audit Services Department thank you thanks for thanks for being here and I think I want to hear maybe from you and then director Smith but can you just provide a little bit of an overview and expand a little bit upon the audit report the findings and recommendations and then I would like to hear from director Smith some of the department responses to the audit recommendations so in the audit report let me let me just go back for a second to the objective if I can the objective of the audit was for us to determine if heart if the program has practices in place to effectively receive and respond.

To incidents involving nonviolent mental health crises or quality of life concerns and so we looked at their practices we ultimately came up with a couple of findings and so one of the things that we noted was that and and I want to say at the outset the program is awesome the program has only been in place for a couple of years and so I think they've done a wonderful job but we did determine that targets established by the department for fiscal year 25 appeared to us to be a little bit ambitious and the reason we say said that was because the target for fiscal year 25 was around 52% the actual for fiscal year 24 was around 25% and again when we're doing projections we do those projections like a year out and based on the activity that director Smith and his team were aware of you know that was that was the the the the metric that they came up with right 52% and so we just said you know.

Using the other metrics from the Kennedy School of government they're going to do some more research but we just said just do some more research to make sure that what you're telling the public what they're telling you guys what they're telling the manager is in fact reasonable so that was finding one and I'll let Ryan talk about the their response to that but they were in agreement with that response for finding two and I think this is the last finding actually I think there were only two findings but we also noted that in their clinical management system their policy their departmental policy is that they record these encounters information on these encounters within 24 hours and we noted when we pulled the sample that some of the responses were much longer out longer than that and so these guys are awesome at doing data analysis they are probably some of the best at the city right and what we were just saying is if you're not collecting this data and recording this.

Data on a timely basis then your your analysis can't be as accurate as you want it to be and again they agreed with that so those were the things that we were looking at we're just trying to make sure that you know what they're what they were doing was in fact what they intended to do great thank you and if I can just hear from direct director Smith thank you for that overview director Smith sounds like the official audit report comes back with awesome and can you just provide a little bit of response and maybe a little a little bit of just an overview of the audit and then just a little bit of an Outlook of of the program sure I think thank you Ryan Smith director of community safety I me I think the big picture from the audit is a positive report I'll speak briefly to the two findings and provide a little bit more context on the first one which is really about our degree to.

Accurately forecast how many calls we can get to with our staff an update on that sitting here today so as the the audit noted we had projected about 52% of calls on three of four programs were actually very good so sitting here today we get to about 53.5% of our community Response Team calls 75% of our crisis call diversion calls the big thing that we're working on is co-response where we get to about 12% of calls and the audit lays out a multitude of reasons that we are working on and working and just talked to Chief Andrews about that today on strategies we have for how we can increase the number of calls that we're getting to but I think I think we have also over this summer and you know Anise fance is our amazing assistant director has been doing a lot of work on creating an even more sophisticated Staffing model so that we understand how we need to staff units to make sure that we are that our.

That our forecasting is as accurate as can be but I think overall on three of our four programs our forecasting has been very good and in co-response for reasons that we're learning about as we're growing as a department we're going to get better at that and some of that is operational things we're working out with the Durham Police Department on the the you know the audit found 128 service records that were not in compliance with our the standards that we set for ourself on how quickly you want to close things out the context I want to put around that is that represents 1.1% of our service records so it's important to us our goal is to do that we have it as an internal best practice because we want to do it across the board and I'm grateful for audit departments review and surfacing things that we can focus on but to put in context on 98 8.9% of the time we were closing out our surface records within.

Our within our goal and we put in place some really good under the leadership of lie Mayer in ABA bako our clinical managers some really good internal practices so that we are tracking that on a weekly basis with our shift supervisors and making sure that we're getting those cases and documentation closed out for all the reasons that that the audit staff recognized as important so those are my respon is that I feel as the Director of the department in charge of that I feel good about where we're at and our ability to respond in the manner that we have laid out in the audit and happy to answer more questions about that higher level i' just I'd like to say a couple things and part of this is in the we're in the theme of giving manager page her flowers and I'd like to take just a moment to do that too it has been the privilege of my life to lead the department that you created and I will.

Forever be indebted to you for the opportunity to do that and for your bold leadership that created this department I've said that to you before but I want to say it to you on this day too we are part of a national movement I'm very aware of what this work looks like across the country and as a point of Pride for you madam manager I hope that you take pride in knowing that the department that you created is and I do not say this of Pride with me it's for the amazing people that do this work but you created the conditions for us to have as a real matter of fact one of the best programs in the country and that's not me saying it it is all the folks who come here all the time from across the country across our state for the various groups that are putting us in small groups with other agencies to lead the development of national best practices and I've learned a lot about leadership just from.

A distance away from watching you and one of the things that I appreciate about you is being a good leader is about creating the right conditions for something to succeed and I think you did a couple of things that are pretty rare in this country that were bold decisions in my humble view one of them was creating a standalone Department I think that has benefited us in a lot of ways and it's not the common practice and the other thing was supporting a recommendation that we'd be able to hire and develop the capacity within as opposed to what is a common practice of Outsourcing it to other providers and there's good reasons for those things but I do think those decisions that you made along with your steady support and and all the ways that you you know ask all the tough questions and help us be our best thank you for that thank you for that I I hope that you see this to me this will always be a part of.

Your legacy and I'm I love I love what I do and the people in my department really love it too and we are grateful for the opportunity you created for us to do this work that we find joy and purpose in so thank you madam manager sorry other questions I just just thank you very much yeah if I could just add to this also thank you to the audit Services Department Dr brunon your staff for a great report thank you director Smith for coming to talk about the work you're doing I just want to lift up again that as as I think Dr ber said this is among the most rigorous departments in the city very data driven in terms of your work in terms of your outcomes and objectives so I really want to lift that up and appreciate that also want to say publicly and also maybe let you say more about this there's also other evaluations you're also involved in so if you would sort of maybe say a.

Little bit more about those much deeper analyses of your work and I would also invite you to bring when those when those when those reports are complete love for you to bring those before the council so we can learn more about the incredible work and the kind of depth of analysis that you're doing about the work of heart so thank you council member us yes we have from the beginning we've been really committed to both transparency and rigorous evaluation and part of that is of course for ourselves and for the residents that we serve and knowing what's working and what's not part of that also is to inform what is still a new field and as as one of the Departments that is helping lead the way we want to be a place that can be have a lot of rigorous evaluation and about program that we can share with others so we have two as you may recall none of these are funded by the city there's so much interest in.

This work so Robert W Johnson Foundation funds one that the cook Center for social Equity at Duke is leading that is doing a lot of surveying both of in communities where we are operating so understanding residents experience with our work and also of other partners so they've been doing surveys with law enforcement and others about this experience that's a multi-year grant but we will begin to get some deliverables and and we look forward to sharing that both with you and and and publicly the second evaluation is one by that RTI is leading funded by Arnold Ventures it's also a multi-year evaluation it's more I would say like quantitative looking at outcomes there they have done a number of there have been a number of early deliverables on that one of them was they did a survey of I don't remember the number but a couple of hundred law enforcement officers in the Durham Police Department about their perspectives on our work before we launched and what they are today we.

Will we can share that with Council I think the high level what that shows is what Chief and and I both experienced which is growing support among law enforcement if they have seen this work in practice and seen the benefit of it was still was still room to grow but a a lot of good progress there so there are a lot of ways that we're going to be learning about this work and and our commitment to transparency around this we'll be making that happy to come back and report report to council and also be making that publicly available to others thank you great thank you so much I just have one one final question I'm just curious in your and is a very not a not a very specific like number related question but to what extent do you feel over the past since the beginning of Community safety Department's beginning of heart and it's very new a great way to evaluate a program is to look at what other.

Programs are doing and there aren't that many else to look at because Durham is an innovator in this area to what extent do you feel that Hart is replacing some services that already existed before before with more appropriate skill sets so before for example if a police officer were responding to someone who were having who is having a mental health crisis now we're sending someone who's experienced that field and a police officer might not in some cases might not have to show up versus to what extent you think we are using resources to supplement and essentially create a new service that never existed before if that question makes sense yeah that's a good question I think a little bit about the second part of it I mean I think that our first 2 and a half years demonstrating ways that I'd be happy to come back and talk about in more detail that har is adding to our Public Safety response in ways that enables us to better match the needs of.

Some neighbors in crisis than we were able to do before we bring a whole different set of skill sets than law enforcement I think that frees up law enforcement to be places where we need them most and more places where even law enforcement as the survey and other things will show increasingly fine value and having heart available it's also demonstrated in the increasing number of times we're being requested by law enforcement to join them on scene for certain calls I think there are lots of ways we can look at it that show that yes something like Hart better positions us to respond to the needs of our neighbors who experience a very broad range of of Crisis and that is to speak nothing of against the important work that other Public Safety agencies are doing we've just Diversified the kind of responses that we have and that enables us to better match the needs so I think there's a lot of evidence of that and that evidence is things that both.

We can come back and report on and is evident both I would lift up if you haven't had a chance to listen to it there was a really great podcast series that trade-offs did and the reason I looked it up is because yes I'm here saying it and but you can hear our own police chief say these things it's a four-part series as some of the best journalism on this in the country that has happened and you will hear our police chief who think the world of speak about her own perspective on this work the value she has seen of it and also transparently about some of the challenges of it so there's a lot of ways that you can yourself listen come through Ride Along alongs and I'm happy to come back and Report on the other it's a good one and honestly I'm just my I would need to think a little bit more about how I want to respond to that and I don't I'm just not quick enough on on.

My feet to answer that second question thank you and I was going to ask you to reference the podcast I thoroughly enjoyed it I think it diffuses some of the the the binary that folks have put out there of it has to be this or that and I think that Durham is leading the way on how I don't even want to say coexist but more so collaborate and expand our Public Safety apparatus we're not there yet I think we're we're headed in the right direction I think that there's still some implicit bias around certain parts of our Public Safety app apparatus but I think that you know just the way we really collaborated you know from Community safety to Public Safety with police and heart man we are we are making serious strides and I just appreciate your leadership so I would ask that you repeat the podcast name sure it you can on any streaming service if you look up tradeoffs the fifth Branch the fifth branch is the.

Name of the particular series tradeoffs is former NPR journalist they do in-depth reporting on health policy issues but tradeoffs fifth branch you will find it four four-part three-part three-part episode sorry that gives a lot of insight into the program and and I I'll say I know you referenced the police chief speaking on there with you but what was most compelling is actually excuse me actual you know officers that are on patrol that were non-believers that that that you know came around on this and and and that podcast I've provided to quite a folks and specifically to those who who took serious issue with like shot spot or something like guys it does not have to be either or you know we can expand the tools in our toolbox to best serve all of our community and so I think this is in the right direction I'm really grateful for that podcast thanks for provided it for me to listen any other questions colleagues yes mayor proin thank you Mr May and I'm going to.

Ass myself with everything my colleagues have said Ryan good to see you doing great work there congratulations on a great audit in the future when you introduce yourself to us would you please tell us your bird name make that part of your that's a request my bird name's Chickity also Madam manager would you introduce yourself my bird name is harpy eagle harpy eagle in case you couldn't hear that so I put in a request for pterodactyl still haven't heard anything yet but I do want to just just again thank you and and I'm glad that you pointed out you know of work of our manager CU it wasn't always that way I mean this this Rose has some thorns on it at the beginning one of the animating propositions behind this type of work for some folk was to replace the police there were talks and during before we all celebrating it talks in Durham of of a onetoone replacement every time we hire a heart person get rid of a.

Cop and our manager pushed back against that and and and said no we can have a coexistence and and that you talked about your legendary relationship now with the chief so I want to thank y'all for for doing that work even when it was hard and Durham is now heralded as as an example around the country of what it looks like to coexist I want to celebrate the statistic that we can never measure however because you know I I for some folk the proposition why we need a heart was the police are murdering mentally distressed people that and for a large part of people you know the the proposition was the less police contact the greater the likelihood of survival that that's that's what folk were talking about I do not know and we can never document how many people that the heart team have exper have encountered would have been killed by the police we we can't measure that you know the headline has been stopped but it's thank God we have that.

Tool in our toolbx and that's what it's really about having a a wide array of responses the appropriate responses to appropriate situations of all the data we collect listen if the D if folk said we didn't like heart I just think it's a good idea some some things you need to have in your toolbox to prevent things from happening and the the the things that you prevent will never make the headline you know there are folk in this city and in this community and you're one of them that are stopping headlines from happening that are that are stopping young men and women from turning to life of crime and gangs we'll never know their names and we can't measure that and and what I love about hard is that the headlines that it stops which we'll never be able to measure so it will always have my vote I don't care what the data says because the main data point is a data point that is immeasurable and that's the number of.

Lives that have been preserved because har went instead of a hopped up police officer which is not the Duram police department but policing r large in our country so thank you congratulations on a great audit looking forward to more work looking forward to hear about my bird name thank you Mr Mayor so noted thank you so much thank you all right next up is item number four that one is me Hi how are you I just was hoping that you would give us a really really brief summary and then I'd love to hear from Deputy city mayor Chadwell or or whoever St oh hi okay just kidding H whoever is going to speak on behalf of the staff I just have a couple questions about the.

Responses sorry thank you director Smith turned it off thank you very much the objective of this audit was to review efforts of the city to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act title two requirements title two specifically pertains to local governments so we were not looking in this audit whe to see whether or not the city was in compliance because we are but we were looking specifically at title two and whether or not the the transition plan and the self- evaluation if we were complying with with those documents so if I look at we had several recommendations and before I finish I just want to say I want to go back to the heart audit because there's something I want to say but I will continue with this right now so with finding one there's a lack of clear direction from upper management on responsibilities of the Ada coordinator and ownership of the Ada function so when we started this audit one of the things that came to light was that we.

Were not really clear the director of the equity and insurance department which is where this this process is housed right now none of us were really clear about it you know what the role was and whether or not the role should be in the particular Department that it was it it where resided right that was one of the things and so with regard to that particular recommendation we looked at the Ada coordinator the Ada coordinator is a requirement of the the the transition plan and our self- evaluation and so that role is currently not in place and that was one of the things that we wanted to highlight it's also a requirement of the transition plan that that position be outward facing that residents know who that person is who they can contact and where that position resides so that kind of thing was really not in place at the at the time of this audit that was recommendation number one with regard to recommendation number I'm sorry excuse me finding number two management.

Has not determined which department is permanently accountable for assuming the responsibility so that's in the same vein in that this particular role was in the general Services Department it transitioned to the equity and and in inclusion Department a couple of years ago the director agreed to take this function this process but didn't really realize at the time that it was going to be a permanent kind of residency and so we we address that finding three current practices are not aligned with those identified in the transition plan the transition plan and the self evaluation the self evaluation is just that right and so we look at the city how we are complying and then if we see deficiencies then we take action staff takes action to correct those deficiencies in the various departments around the city we have practices in place in our daily operations that deal with ADA compliance so there are several departments that have practices in place but with regard to the transition plan itself we said we're going to do.

Certain things and if in fact we were complying with those things it would be great but we're not right and so we told staff they needed to address that and I think those are those are the three findings thank you so your question yes it's gonna be a staff question so whoever wants to address it good afternoon Sharon Williams Department of equity and inclusion director hi Miss Williams how are you you I'm doing well so I was particularly interested in this it's something that I've I've been trying to sort of look at just as my role said on the mayor's committee for persons with disabilities and this has been brought up I do think that there has been a little bit of issue sort of it just got addressed but sort of this lack of outward facing and some some issues with finding who is responsible and ensuring that these that the we were in compliance with the transition plan so I'm just looking at the responses now for the findings and I see.

That pretty much every responses is is we agree we agree we agree and I'm I'm on page 20 so I'm on the the more detailed responses they all have different dates and I'm wondering sort of how we came up with those dates of impl mentation and perhaps for some of them where the dates are extremely close which includes the one to recommendation for is January 1 oh I'm sorry that's 2026 that is quite far out never mind so that's gonna that is going to change my misread I apologize but we do have some some plans for it looks like fall of 2025 and I was just wondering for those ones and summer of 2025 what sort of movements are happening and and what we can be looking out for coming from your office so thank you for those questions some things were an easy lift so it was easier to put dates in that were sooner others were a much more difficult lift and so that's where the dates came from there are.

Multiple departments that are collaborating on this so it's equity and inclusion neighborhood Improvement services and general Services we're coordinating an enterprise-wide response so the things that were an easy lift were things that we could do that were talked about like making sure that our residents know who the coordinator is right now who do you contact if you have an issue and you want to reach somebody that was an easy lift we did that making sure that we updated the portal where residents can request information with you know ways that we will assist them if they have a disability and they need some help so some things were an easy lift and we've been able to do those things so we had a a date that was a lot sooner other things are going to take a little bit more time and more coordination and so I was instrumental in writing that response okay thank you and I do think that some of that answered itself because I I thought y'all were.

Responding to the fourth recommendation by January and I was really confused on how we were going to get that done so that makes way more sense than it is January of 2026 I just want want to say that I appreciate this audit and I appreciate the work that y'all are doing to address it I do think that where the city is always striving of course to meet not only our ADA compliance but also this title to our transition plans all of these different things we're of course striving to meet them but what we know from residents is that sometimes we are falling short on those things we we do have folks who have differing abilities particularly folks who are vision impaired who do have a lot of trouble accessing information on our city websites or or elsewhere and so I just want to appreciate the work that's going into that and and I am looking for forward to more clarity on his responsible and and where best department that this can sit in so thank.

You very much thank you thank you I just wanted to follow up as well appreciate council member Cook's questions and I would concur that it's going to be a heavy lift and we you definitely have our support I do want to say I want to know if that office downstairs is still open and available for folks it is sharing that information that is around I guess where the Ada coordinator was and if you could share who the Ada coordinator is currently okay so the office that she's referring to is an office that exists in City Hall for the mayor's committee for persons with disabilities they have the ability to have access to that office it has equipment in there that is specifically for persons that have disabilities so anyone could utilize that office they haven't utilized it as much since covid but it does still exist and they are able to access it whenever currently the responsibility for the administrative coordinator role lives in equity and inclusion right so there's no.

Specific person so I have a new person that's my administrative coordinator she is only 3 weeks in but she understands the responsibility and the things that she has to do and she is the person that's providing project management for all of the things that we've set in place in response to this audit so we are the source that will take a resident complaint or an issue right we're the source this is where it lands and then our job is to Source it to find out the Departments where it needs to live and then to follow up to make sure that action was taken on behalf of the resident thank you and I do want to say that I think the space that is made available is filled with information as well there's a lot of information on Social Security the benefits around folks with this with differing abilities and then also as a resource making sure that there's like anything that you want to ask or want to or any time that you.

Want to make information available to people with different abilities that that office was a space where that information was collected I know Miss Marge and a number of others from the dis the mayor's committee for Disabilities often try to get folks to come in and they used to host an annual event in which they would make sure that that information went out into the community I don't know if that still happens but it would be great to get that going again I know with Co a lot of this shut down but yeah they very much want to get that going again yeah thank you and that was all thank you and I also I'm sorry and I also wanted to thank audit services for conducting an audit I know we had chance to see this in the preview it in the previous meeting I just want to follow up with staff thank you thanks council member wrist thank you I just want to appreciate the conversation about our ADA compliance and the work the.

Management is doing to to even tighten up the the work we're doing also since Council Member Chelsea Cook asked about the recommendations management response and timeline I just want to put in a plug for the audit Services committee so as you know audit Services come to us maybe like once a month with a new report right each one having recommendations often with responses and timelines and so just so you know cook audit services does actually have a spreadsheet we track about all these recommendations and how when action is being taken to close those out so we actually track those once the report has been given so we do have some oversight over how we are doing and actually like meeting our objectives or meeting our commitments in responding to the audit so again thank you for that work Dr Brunton and the ongoing oversight of our all of our processes and and services of the city of Durham so thank you thank you do you want to follow up one thing on.

The on the heart item I do okay point of privilege please and so one of the things I wanted to point out residents may not have read this report the community Response Team responded to 83% of the calls that they received responses that they re the calls they received that was about 5,000 calls that they addressed without law enforcement so if you're trying to think about how effective is the the department being I think that's a really important statistic and that was for 23 and 24 and then another statistic was for the crisis call diversion unit 50% so that's about 500 calls were managed by the folks that sit in 911 without needing any in-person contact so again those are just some statistics the other thing I want and you guys may not know this because you you probably don't know how we work but we have entrance conferences we have exit conferences and during that exit conference the department so director Ryan will push back on what we're trying to the findings and the.

Recommendations and it's my job to also push back and one of the things that director Smith stated was that while in finding two it was 128 cases which he said was 1% of their total cases for the the the reporting or recording of those items those encounters on a timely basis and he did ask if we would put that context in the report and I said no I was not going to do that and the reason for that was we did not have time to look at all the cases that had been closed so saying that only 1% of the cases that were closed were outside of their policy time frame was not something that we could say we could not verify that so I just want to want you guys to understand the department pushes back we push back but we're only going to put something in a report that we can actually verify so any other questions thank you so much all right and item number.

Five could pull that all right but I think actually everyone pulled it okay well I do have a speaker in person gosh I don't have my glasses you read that Hut oh Quincy Hut he just yeah. There hey there welcome yeah we are actually on item number five which is the bow hunting if you I did have that you pull this would you like to share remarks well welcome you have three minutes up to three minutes you don't have to take the whole thing whole thing if you don't want no we'll take less than that actually we don't have have a prepared speech we saw this item on the agenda we thought that maybe some of the council members had concerns or questions so we thought we would just actually show up and we can address any concerns or questions you might have based upon you know what the tror board of directors feels so if you have questions for us we'd be happy to answer them there is one comment I'll make.

Before I sit down we understand that perhaps some of the vocal critics within our own Comm Community seem to have an idea that our that our idea is to wander around tror with a group of people that have bows and arrows and we can shoot at anything that moves that is the farthest from any idea that we would ever have the idea is to try to reduce our de population to do so extremely safely and the plans that we would have going forward provided you let us provided change the ordinance is that we would have nothing like what I just described this would be very controlled very carefully vetted people held on extremely limited properties that are privately held and they have permission given to us to do the calling but we can't proceed with any of those plans unless the city of Durham changes the ordinance as it currently exists so with that I'll hush up if you have questions fire away thank you so much all right council member.

Cook just wanted to pull up you're you're good Mr cut we we're gonna We several council members pulled it as well so we're just going to discuss it and you're welcome to listen in on. It so last time colleagues I had raised some concerns that I think were echoed by a few others I just want to recognize the work that Deputy city manager Bo Ferguson put into responding to my particular concerns and that was put out on December 2nd at the meeting in the manager's priority items the things that I had raised were requesting specifically if we could put extra safety mechanisms around a bow hunting ordinance specifically in terms of notice and time the reason I brought those up again and and I'm still feeling really uncomfortable about them are because we aren't talking about a restricted space where you know that there is hunting that occurs and you just choose not for example to go walk in Duke Forest during hunting season we're talking about people's yards people's neighbors and I wanted to.

Make sure that if we could further restrict those items that we would look into that option unfortunately we through some assessment I believe with the city attorney's office each of the things that I had asked for it sounds like we cannot add those extra precautions and for me this feels too broad still and I I do recognize that it's really important to to regulate wildlife and that there's not a lot of options for these specific neighbors and I I recognize that in addition to just like the actual just property damage that they can inflict there's there's also real danger to People's Health right we know that there's a rise in tickborne illnesses and that high deer populations lead to that and then also vehicular accidents and that sort of thing but for me I'm having trouble mentally getting past the idea that there's possibility that right on folks boundary lines there could be active hunting that's silent because bow hunting does not make noise and I know that it will come from a specific.

Position but it doesn't limit the fact that it will still be ongoing people have young children they have pets they live in those neighborhoods it's not just tror and it's going to be applicable to the entire city and though we have sort of not a lot of Statistics in terms of the regulations in other places we do know that none of the other large cities in D in North Carolina allow bow hunting for me I don't feel like there are enough restrictions on this to make me feel okay with its broad application at the very least I would be asked that it gets put on GBA moving forward thank you I'm going to let other colleagues speak May pro thank you Mr Mayor thank you colleagues oh you gonna address from over there.

Or me Mr manager designate I'm sorry bo Ferguson Deputy City Manager for Public Safety and I was having a sidebar conversation on so if there was a question I missed it I apologize no no not at all I'm just beginning actually so I'm I'm the HOA letter in our Memo from treyburn asked for a reduction in the buffer around dwellings for the release of arrows from 250 feet to 60 feet but under issues and Analysis no okay it was referring to the 2013 the 2013 proposal established no buffers or I thought that was a 20 go ahead there was a committee that made a recommendation to Council in 2013 there original recommendation had no buffers Council expressed concern about that and asked for for staff to consider a safety buffer and so the ordinance was brought back at council's request to have the safety buffer in place and and they're asking us from go to go from five acres to two acres but in 2013 they.

Went from two to five and I I I don't even want you to pretend that you remember intimately but what what was the motivation from going from two to five back then so I I don't remember at all but the documentation I have read indicates that it was it was similar to the buffer that there was a concern about safety as as the agenda memo plays out you know we we have attempted to verify through through reports across the state concerns we we we just have not found data on either side of the argument to suggest where that number should or should not be and so the the the lack of our ability to give Council a firm recommendation on what is safe and what is not safe is simply because this is so so rare of it has been used so rarely and other cities report so little interaction with it that we just really have no information to go on and this this ordinance this amended ordinance would be would I it.

Would be relevant to all of Durham not just trayer correct it would have Universal I'm I'm a bit sensitive lately about things starting locally and having Universal impact I've been hurt before let let me and this this is a real question I'm not a hunter instead of killing all the deer are there any kind of like root cause initiatives we can engage in maybe things around fertility or stuff like that rather than killing all of them are there other things we can do so the best I can answer that is to say that in 2013 that appears to have been a fairly robust part of the conversation was is that that there was discussion in 2013 amongst North Carolina Wildlife Resources and various advocacy groups who who had opinions on the matter and and the committee's recommendation to the council was that there has been no scientifically proven method other than the culling of deer to address the overpopulation I think some communities have experimented with sterilization relocation and none of.

Those efforts again I am not a professional and don't want to speak one but that is that is what I read from the 2013 minutes and discussion from that time I'd be curious to see some of that I mean I I I know it's the quickest most efficient way of the calling but but this is a root cause kind of City so obviously I've got to ask a question about alternatives to just killing things this is Durham right I I do share some of well not some I share council member Cook's concerns also about safety issues with this particularly lowering the buffer from 250 to 60 feet that that seems pretty close to me to to structures but I'll I'll you know defer and wait to hear from the rest of my colleagues but I do want to Echo council member Cook's concerns with this as well thank you Mr Mayor just want to go on the record that Council M cook and may Pro Tem are on the same page about something.

I'm I'm I'm gonna yeld to my colleagues I manager paig and I grew up in Wilson and Halifax County and Ash County so for us you know you just there's a season and a license and you go for it so I'm I'm going to rely on my colleagues for this one I and in my own natural bias I'm like what the heck are they talking about but that's me so I I get it go ahead council member R thanks Mr Mayor first of all I just want to thank my Council colleagues for agreeing to put this on our agenda for the I'm assuming this is on GBA next meeting yeah it will be now yeah yeah as you've heard me say the last last month or so I think part of what I'm pledging to the citizens of Durham is is to provide better and quicker government so I want to provide an like timely definitive answer to the residency Brothers issue forward so I appreciate you all putting this on the agenda so we.

Can give that kind of answer I do share some of the concerns of my colleagues partly because there's no data as as de C man Ferguson said there's no data other big cities in the state don't have deer hunting so we don't know where to set at that limit it's really there's just a lot of unclarity so I do have some of the same concerns so look forward to debate on on I guess the second or the third when this is on the on GBA and go from there yeah January but again appreciate we're having a discussion about it all of y'all city folks what else what you got what you got Jersy I I I do want it bow and arrows right I wish that were a problem I I I want to I too I went to Echo and associate myself with council member RIS sentiments about wanting to provide effective response to folk I I I want to be just as responsible to the folk in mdle.

Terrorist as we are to try bur as well and and communities that are under gunfire every night not not deer not bows and arrows but bullets they've asked for things as well in the past and I think you know I I hear you but I I I just want to make sure we do that for all communities equally so with that said Thank you Mr. Mayor all right I believe that's all the commentary we have for item number five and just Madam cler just want to make sure we Miss Smallwood Paris Smallwood is not.

Online no all right all right so those are all the items those are all the items that I have pulled.

J wrist already all right all right those are items those are the items Madam Clerk do we need to refer to you for any reporting out no sir all right thank you all so much it is officially 3:31 p.m. and I'm going to pass it over to Madame manager to set the agenda here for the very last time well thank you Mr Mayor Mr Mayor Pro Tem members of the Durham city council I have for you and your new manager consent items 1 through 4 and items 6 through 10 and on GBA item five thank you very much and I'm.

Out all right I want entertain a motion to thatle move to settle set the agenda it has been moved and it has been moved and seconded by the council for the agenda to be settled as read and all in favor I all oppose mam manager please gble us out see y'all at 500 PM 37.

Years for.