City Council · Regular Meeting · March 1, 2023

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and Cameron Nate Baker here Sarah Sarah Brandon Davis Scott MacGyver David Morgan here Anthony's here Missouri Williams [Music] thank you thank you all I do believe [Music] indicated that students

all over the things I'd like to thank you all who are here personally in our beautiful water management facilities and out here it is um [Music] [Music] I'd like to uh [Music]

[Music] [Music] um is is a formal meeting because we are a meeting Forum but it is an opportunity for us to have a little less formal dialogue around the same house we have so many folks that are chat again

I think it it will be uh appropriate for this kind of just quickly introduce who we are uh so I'll just kick off real quick and see really quick I'm councilmember Williams I serve on the city council and go this way and you all know who I am Mark Anthony Middleton American women's Xavier I'm the chair of the government commissioner for information David Morgan's Planning Commission Tony sues Planning Commission Stephen Valentine fighter commission Dave Baker fighting Commission Alexander cable planning department Sarah Young planning department Bryce

Smith mining department Reginald Johnson Community Development Department Donald city attorney's office Wanda page Durham city manager Carmen sure Wallace City manager's office thank you and I guess less but not least thank you all so much uh so let's say that tonight Mr ramadilla and I had just have some conversation around the need for these two bodies to to Really uh come together and just have a little dialogue around the role that we played in The People's work and as the public know that you know it's been quite Dynamic uh in terms of Housing and especially with Whitney's new bodies so the idea is for us to have this dialogue without totally in silence uh and being able to you know get a

Refresh on some major topics or departments and then have a little open discussion around it uh we could be here until it's time to be over or we don't have to be here all that long but at least once again we're able to uh come together so I get an idea of how we are thinking as individuals that we you know appointed roads or electric roles and understand how our bodies can work together versus how we're working better yeah I don't have uh much else to add from that I can't remember Williams requested this meeting in novemberish and um has really led the charge because it's been going but I'm happy for our audience today and engage in more Dialogue on the students that are based in our city so uh there's a YouTube video agenda the format uh we'll get a we'll get a brief presentation from our staff and then we'll open it up for discussion uh

perspective on that topic and then we will uh have any questions uh or you know to provide it it will lead to the next topic so first up is uh from our director of planning everything will give me just 30 seconds I gotta share it over the zoom and then get back in front of you so bear with me just a minute foreign refresh and I have pulled a couple of slides for a presentation that I gave to the council as part of their deep dive series back in November that really talk

about uh the types of development approvals and decisions and the roles that certain bodies have in them so first up a quick overview there are three basic type of land use decisions or other types of decisions that are made locally the first is legislative decisions those are things as you can see that are discretionary in this case the city council the County Commissioners also make those types of decisions they are things that include rezonings changes the zoning of a property enacting with ordinances adopting official plans those kind of things we also have quasi-judicial decisions so that's in that second category these are evidentiary hearings they run like the court of law they do have prescribed findings and criteria that must be followed and we have a few examples of those the historic preservation commission as well as the board of

adjustment um make those type of decisions and then the last type is Administrative decisions so these are things where there are already a set of rules in place and it falls on the administrative staff to ensure compliance with those adopted groups things like you know site plans and sign permits and all sorts of things just hit the button s Insurance code roles that we may be talking about tonight more specifically yeah we've got the planning department and you'll see that our job as a planning department is often to draft policies or ordinances or plans that can forward to what we're hearing from the community from our elected officials and

we present those to you all The Joint City County planning committee is a group that is three council members three County Commissioners and the chair of the Planning Commission and their function is a little bit different they are advisory in terms of they discuss matters joint interest between the city and the county when it comes to planning and they provide guidance and direction to the planning staff particularly like on our annual work program what it is important you better have a Planning Commission the Planning Commission is advisory only so for state law if we have zooming then we have to have a planning question and the role of the planning to commission is to review these legislative things that will come before the elected officials make a recommendation to the elected officials on those items and then of course we have city council and our County Commission Commissioners as well just remember this is a

presentation again to the council but they're in the same bucket they are the actual decision makers they're the ones that have the authority under state law to enact policies ordinances Etc including changing the zoning of course so that is my super quick uh planning refresher let me know if you have any questions thank you so much to be quick um we live this every day so uh and real quick so we're back here uh it's really hard to hear up to the other side of the room so we'll just speak up so we'll leave your comments uh so as you can see on the agenda the format is just a quick work and set the tone and then have a little discussion a question to answer um anyone any questions around uh the process

for uh you know just from application to approval um anybody need any Refresh on that all right so I do have a question uh because we are we are pretty much the one that are living this every day so you may think why is he asked me this but there are a lot of folks in the community that have no clue what's happening they have no clue what's going on they don't really understand the process so this is an opportunity for us to also have a little discussion uh on behalf of the public which we never really did we actually function at titles and part of the linear process so uh our question would be the same one always ask why does it take so long to get it to get an application from application to approval sure so and and it depends on which application but let's I presume you're talking about the things that come before you all like a result yes so in a rezoning uh the

application comes in staff reviews it we review it for compliance with you know does it uh how does it match up with adopted plans and policies there is an iterative iterative process where we will tell an applicant hey you know this particular thing is around performance with the ordinance or how are you addressing this and they have a chance to respond and amend their application we do that for a couple of cycles and then it gets docketed for the Planning Commission for public hearing the Planning Commission can continue a case their deliberation on a case for up to three meeting Cycles yeah it's been a while um and then from there it gets put on city council or County Commissioner's agenda so one of the things that takes eats up time is our reviews tend to run you know anywhere depending on our staffing level

40 business days however applicants have up to 90 days to turn something back around so applicants always have way more time than staff does with each round of review so sometimes applicants will take that full time sometimes applicants ask us for extensions they need more time to work through things and then of course we have the uh Cycles to get on agendas right but they're not instantaneous there's lead time and then we also sometimes just have so many cases like right now that we can't possibly get all the cases that are close to ready uh on a single agenda so we just have to kind of space them out so those are the variety of things that contribute to how long it takes to get something all right sounds like we've got some concerns about that

maybe well no it's so a lot of the questions that you're going to have are what if what I wrote in the public domain okay so our developers say it takes way too long you know it takes you know two to three years um and I cannot read the answer why you know so it's part of it you know it's like all right so well I'll ask my next question [Music] is it possible to wait do we have a mechanism that tracks an application throughout the process yeah I think Alexander if you want to talk about how we track and what I think it might be helpful to hear what how our averages have changed absolutely um so we were working under a lot of pressures that you know surprise pandemic there were a lot of applications that were already in the queue there was a rush to submitted a ton of applications at once when code hit uh and then of course there was some staffing Challenge and shortage for a while um and so it was running about 15 months

for rezoning um now we are down to less than a year and I I foresee that going even quicker the trade-off is any time that there's less time for a project to be in that cycle there is less time for the community to engage on it so that's a little bit of the trade-off in that space um we are unique in that we allow engagement from the time an application is submitted to the time it's heard by y'all hearings but every time we do reduce that by efficiencies which is what we have focus on we do run into the fact that there's less time for the community question I have a question um again you know residents who says it takes up a long time to get this done and they compare us to other places which I don't like but is there barriers that you can say that you can kind of identify that because some of these barriers that that I guess is allowed in this period of time any barriers that you can kind of like do A

needs assessment around and try to change that to kind of make it faster or not I mean I will say that uh I wish that we could hold the developing Community to the same time frames that we hold staff I think that would uh speed things up a fair amount but you know oftentimes I think the development Community is trying to work through things there is uh there's aspects of development that staff isn't privy to right the financing behind a project or ownership issues and while we try and make sure that folks have all their ducks in a row when they first come in you know things happen that are beyond control um but those are details that are not shared with staff so oftentimes we don't really know what's driving some of the delays on the development side so it's hard for us to say I can certainly respond about it you know the things we Control process wise

yeah I I don't know you know burden-wise I think that typically what we see and I hear this often that you know the process is prohibited for smaller scale developers um one of the things we've tried to do with the recent text amendment that changes development plans and allows pretty much anything that can be described in text form to be done that way the intent behind that was really to remove the burden of events associated with producing a development plan and that's not uh the administrative fees that's to draw up a development plan you're going to a consultant that consultant is going to charge you a lot of money um you know depending on the complexity of the of the project in 26 40 60 80 000 that is very expensive um so that was an attempt to really address that that issue and that burden

we touched upon it as far as the cost to the development what is the cost or fees assessed I know it depends I guess upon the application but what does it range from as far as the cost to the developer yeah obviously they have their own costs with getting the development plan and other things too but so you're talking about the administrative piece so they range Accords to a base fee uh around 4 800 in addition to that 4800 depending on the type of project it is there might be an acreage thing maybe have a very large project in the first 10 acres is the base fee and then above that is an acreage fee for each acre and above that so the larger projects pay more which is a good thing um but yeah okay I'm thinking like the Kent Road case or itself I know there's

a lot of Anchorage be off the top of my head but I can tell you that it was yes Alexander okay thank you could you repeat that uh basically for acreage so for a development plan a graphic development plan it's um right around forty eight hundred dollars basically that's just the ballpark I just looked at the fee schedule today that we're proposing in the budget so that's our new on our new schedule um that's pretty close and then the acreage fee runs um depending on we've got tax surcharges and whatnot convert between sixteen seventy dollars for each acre or above the 10 acres which is where you get the feed that apps that are just provided for that large project was around 25 000 . and that's intended to you know it's difficult for us we cannot by law charge different developers different fees and

so the acreage kind of modifier is intended to capture that you know if you have means enough to do a massive project of 100 acres or whatever um you're going to be in a different kind of bracket economically than someone who's doing a very small scale you know project and has the means just to do that so because again by law we can't charge folks of different circumstances different fees we apply it to the size and the state of the project instead and in addition there the uh real quickly we've run into this with the larger projects there might be more site conditions that require more review with the larger properties you might run into a lot of environmental features there's more calculations that have to happen those in which that involved and we're doing that review it's also going to yield a lot more units you know you're going to get more units if you're looking at residential project 100 acres lawmakers that are also just um

I work in communities across the country developers are always in the state of the process and Dishonored and that's because they need to make money that's why they make a living that's fine but there's no City I've been viewed where the developers say yeah same to process is great they're so happy today and um I you know I trust staff to do what they can to do this with the Developers for allow for things just for information for our purposes but we rarely continue cases we continue cases there's a problem with the planes to make sure that we're doing things right um and when we've had high page mode but we did not work to get out of that whole we've had Indians where he's we heard eight three zones

so we're trying to play our role to keep the process as efficient as possible and that's somewhat the point I was going to make that chair I didn't know what he made about continuing cases I think I've been on the commission two or three years and we may have continued two or three cases but I would also say that those were in instances where there was a very specific item that through the discussions either the developer or staff there there was Clarity with regards to needing a little bit more time to address a particular question it's not the scenario doesn't happen or at least it hasn't been my experience where cases have just been continued because of workload or because of disinterest or because of you know a particular perspective on the on the um the case under consideration so I was going to add that comment and then a question for staff that kind of dovetails on your question about the timing something that I've heard not just in Durham but in other locales as well is to what extent is

the planning Department's timeline in this larger context affected by input and reviews from other departments so we do you share applications and ask that obviously other departments review for their respective fields there have been times certainly where the Departments are having the same struggles we are Staffing turnover et cetera so what we try and do is be very transparent when that is happening and adjust our time frames so that we're clear to the development Community you know regardless of which department is responsible that's had an issue um our time frames have changed we recently um not for resonance but for some other processes ruled out um a little you know info blurb about any of these processes the timelines temporarily changing I'm trying to be very clear that it's a temporary change um so we try and do that together as a unit because we try to function as a unit so yes occasionally that is absolutely true

that happens all right uh I'll try to ask you another question regarding uh so in regards to this negative and their tracks uh a case is there a way that I'm creating this on the spot here but you'd have something just really this way online is there a way that we could Mark when it goes back into the developer's hands that will do timestamp so we do have we have a software platform that tracks our workflows and we we can track from that you know it's if we can set up you know reminders basically that you know there are nine days coming up on a certain date that way staff knows to reach back out and say hey is this coming back in um I will be honest the platform that we have is not great it's really Antiquated and in fact we're working with the

city's Technology Solutions Department to replace it with something that will be a little more user friendly have more functionality allow us to mine data like that back out of it a lot easier without someone having to sit there for two hours running a query which is what happens now um and hopefully maybe even have some uh easier outward facing capabilities of public can more easily see same information yeah I I do think that a more the more transparent it is I think that's going to follow the accountability issues uh because right now it's December sheets have been we get caught in the middle I I get lots of uh [Music] these two you know why something have taken so long and um I quickly go into the system and I can show them like hey you submit it here we give you comments here it took you this long to get back to us and then we've still reviewed on time each time

um and you know that usually addresses their concerned very briefly that last year we put into our CIP program funding to upgrade our overall Erp system but also Our Land Development office so it's not it's something that is already in process and something that we have to do periodically any organization has has to make a decisions or invest I think it's some probably somewhere near 10 million dollars in upgrading all of our Enterprise life systems and it's it's a funded cabinet program as of last year thank you so much they're just going to make a comment I think they roll out of the social pinpoint has been really great uh certainly as applicants do come in and they do point the public whenever they hear of things obviously a lot of

times the developers actually hold Community meetings even before they apply so I I don't have any reference point that the social pinpoint is really helpful for the people to get online take a look at it and I even use it quite a bit sometimes just to get a better idea of what the applicant is asking for and what is the scope and it does prepare me before the meeting as well also maybe this is a loaded kind of question is do you think you could use more funding since we're getting in the budget season it's horrible okay okay I mean tools like that are real helpful for helping us do our work and so that's what I was thinking also not being so dependent upon the applicant fees Department so um a lot of the things that we receive

from development when they meet resistance from a fair traffic impact analysis that they're not required to do the benefit on the side of the project a lot of times they come to us with not enough community in here and we don't require a development plan prior to them coming to the application process so a really large project they need a lot of resistance from The Branding Commission because you're impacting the community that you're not really considering and you can say I've had a community meeting in 2019. but it's 20 23. it's 20 22 that was 30 years ago garbage changing by what 60 000 people 60 000 residents so if your community outreach isn't up to date then your data so when we meet resistance with that I feel like the planning department is catching it because you're submitting things about a development Grant and then when your development plan comes in

on the back end is inadequate so it has to go back if we could review that or have some type of commitment which a lot of times we have to make adjustments on the plot in the meeting asking well what can you commit to what are you willing to convince you and if they're willing to commit it then we have to update that but that gives us something to say okay we can move this forward it's more comfortable because we do serve Indonesia so we're going to put the time in it to review it we want to make sure that we're putting the best product before the community as well as support environment as well as the planning department so hopefully by the time it gets you guys it's an easy go and it makes sense and I understand that we haven't always created The Narrative at individuals who are we common and I can understand that we're getting better at that but Avery County meetings at night you can start at 5 30 at midnight I'm exhausted because I teach

so after dealing with middle schoolers all day I can tell you the last thing I want to do is type four things you know I think that requiring developers to be more upfront and transparent on larger projects available with smaller projects it's exceptionally difficult for smaller developers to have to plan for a development way so they're not coming in asking to rezone 100 acres they have a strong project so I feel like their process could be more seamless if they have more of a conversational product and that's where the tax only commitment could be helpful in helping smaller developers because it is a tools that is way more effective and way more efficient for them to come in and it'll help solve some of the issues that we're having and it also would help other thinkers help the planning department or democracy in terms of efficiencies yeah

so you're suggesting require the government plan prior to Clinton commission yes that has helped um very large projects is extremely helpful because if you own a thousand acres I'm quite certain eighty thousand dollars if we're dropping a bucket based on whichever third will deal with yourself so sometimes you you've got to make that initial investment on the front end in order to move your project through because you can't go through 45 days of planning and reviews and then say I need you to hurry up and stab this because I need to get it approved when you're just now submitting a development and you swim that's not the matter something about development plans yes so we cannot require anyone to um use a development plan other than where the ordinance specifically says there's what are called plan to districts those required development plan so the idea is

they are planned out districts that have multiple components Etc um but a development plan also lengthens the review timeline because that's when other departments really need to come in and do a hearty review of all those things that are now depicted so a general rezoning that does not have a development plan has the shortest kind of Stack turnaround timeline it cuts time in the beginning so those are just pros and cons Ider any other comments or questions regarding uh the process for uh playing sort of application to approval all right we will uh move on to the next topic I suspect this will be quite robust we have director Johnson here

to provide a quick uh presentation and while we're waiting on this I know you can see the Attorney General uh they are here for other resources we happen to uh get in a quick buy and uh need some clarification on something legally um regarding any of the concessions that we have thank you all for being here as well

thank you thank you technology well my name is Reginald Johnson I have the um preservational affordable housing

neighborhood evaluation um the role here is to talk a little bit about the equivalent home from affordable housing planning what we um and where we are with to be able to see a real background and I have some slides and be glad to uh share with you uh many of you I've seen them before particularly if you've watched the affordable housing implementation community [Music] does contain some information thank you for inviting me but that's why so just as a reminder refresher um [Music]

[Music] and what we uh did the city needed to combine that 95 million dollars to make 160 million dollar investment and it's called Forever home doing uh affordable housing and services for low-income resume so this is the breakout uh because you've seen this before uh this is uh what we have projected a different category of spending and in different areas uh of course we had a little thing in the middle since then called covet and has uh impact an example but this is the foundation in which we all go with the speaker closer to this foreign

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] next time on this chart reflects what the 22 or 2022 which is entire idea the next year hadn't come out yet uh your own chapter here in the Metro uh minutes

what that means is that everybody in that household added together cannot make more than seventy six thousand four hundred dollars a year that's what we're talking about it's not the number one red winner The Breadwinner uh it's everybody in the household so if my grandmother lives with me and she gets a social security check accountable for the weekend of Social Security [Music] um [Music] and then to help with thousand low implemented at home and I moved at home paid 130 million dollars in Contracting opportunities uh support nearly two thousand dollars

construction operations of Midway Thursday s [Music] uh units from here and services [Music] [Music]

Contracting foreign separately [Music] [Music]

is to Developers that's when we went through traffic home just downtown [Music] hopefully in the next uh next couple months and then I would sort of stabilize that include things like evictions of their issues uh this is about a highlight of the program that we made today shooting departments which is right next to the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company building in the transportation JJ Henderson

Tower which is completed in the health authority advisors [Music] foreign thank you foreign um

[Music] ization project will be underway that's a renovation instructions right and we're going to issue it a proposal to selection to continue city office online [Music]

[Music] yeah of resources to the homeless system because of due to covet uh a lot of that one-time funding and so one of the things they were said several actions that needed to take taken in terms of where people would die and how we uh [Music] confident living and so we kind of kind of get back to a new normal because we can't afford to maintain what we were doing

[Music] emergency shelter um [Music] one of the things we've been exercising we're doing is to encourage and have all of our non-profits that work in homelessness to work together in excess of the Home and Services uh for more information we can go to Forever website which is web page uh that goes to Forever Home Journal and uh we encourage you to say but let's see uh to see some of the

projects and some of the story that's going on I want to thank you for your time and uh um I appreciate that presentation it's really helpful for us um I want to be a little careful because I can get really into the beat about this to save my days but if you don't we primarily focused on reloading cases and so leveraging the tools that we have to help contribute to the affordable housing that the city supporting through funding um and yeah I think that's just like the one thing I want to add or one recipe and the work that you're doing and the the city is doing the funding affordable housing we can't do it alone we can't solve affordable housing through land use and so I really appreciate the

perspective the Lord doesn't say you've done dedicated funding the thing that I know about funding is 160 million dollars sounds like a lot of money but it can drive real quick um especially in our current environmental construction so I know you are about to begin budget processes and I just want you to know like you will have my backing and any funding that you're going to choose to promote or dedicate for more health um the last thing I wanted to note on this that it's just you know we took different so many cases we did not say discretionary and I recently heard that the kind of Apex has decided that they're not approving projects that don't be affordable housing and that's a really powerful statement to me and you know the amount of Apex can do it and I hope that we need to keep pushing for more through our reloading process and every tool that are disposal to address this this major

questions good questions I appreciate that information so how can Apex do that if you thank you I don't think so sorry you're talking yeah well well first I haven't heard I don't know exactly what repex is doing so I I'd like to see that first the other thing is the city attorney's office gives advice to the Durham city council I don't give advice to in Texas

finally I just say you know as part of the mayor's affordable housing you've died when you gave an overview of the legal landscape um I would say given the changes in the North Carolina Supreme Court there's only an examination point on the things that I said in that God um so um I don't know what a Cuts is doing but I I stand by the advice that our office has given on um mandatory in evolutionary Zone thank you um I have a quick question um so this could be I guess pretty broad but director Johnson what types of needs would you say are there to increase the completion of our category goals here uh is there more

funding is it third party relationships what what do can we have some pretty uh they're quite realistic our goals with affordable housing what do what what do you think we need to uh that are completely or research goals [Music] [Music] some new students is that one can receive more money but it becomes all at the same time then you have a capacity on the following you know we learned that with the homelessness uh so for years we've been wanting more resources well we had this

thing talk over that more resources pain just to give uh uh a lot of magnitude you know when I started at the department when you go I'm ready to move about you know four million dollars you know now it gets up to be about 20 uh and in the course of 18 months we received a two addition of 25 million more now the question is how do not just the Community Development and we have part so the staff did one piece but then how did the non-profit Community endurance thought about that resources as well that's the point that we also have to also keep in mind that we do have some passive channels when I take it faster this number and and types of organizations that work to end home so so I say it's the the answer to the abortional connection to both of them uh you know you know more money as well as uh

improving our capacity that's one of the things we talk about in our plan I didn't talk about that but this technical assuming the technical assistance for some of our organizations we did some of them uh the code I provided some assistance to help them take through particularly those who had Investments we had already made Investments Investments so I have a question um with these resources that you have how exactly with the Partnerships that you've developed once the funds get to them how is it being monitored from 2019 to now 2023 and we still have a deficit of 2413 properties away from the goal that is set to create affordable housing and not just in homelessness but to help their residents remain in their home so what are the barriers situation is it staff is it is the funnel getting

clogged like how I just don't understand what what the issue is and how we can help so I would say the reviews uh one of them is uh in terms of the capacity of the department another one is the the company um the capacity of our community our non-profit community to develop for example uh one of the things we use the resources that we have is to engage encourage more uh non-profit developers or even four properties of those who engage in focused and tax credit we didn't have that in general uh prior to uh the passive in response that we really didn't have any money to contribute to four percent actually the versus the nine percent tax rate and I don't know if I need to go into the bill and explain what that is but that's a

significant tool is now being used to create uh additional uh create units and position of students that we as a community did not have but we didn't have the resources to be able to contribute you have to contribute in the United States and we only get one nine percent tax credit a year in doing it that's you know we talked about how we can help one of the things we need to do is get the legislature and they're gonna have finance and figure out a way that we can get more than just one and that one is competitive so even if you have one to apply that doesn't mean that we're going to get that one to the confusion I guess other than a similar category you can walk away with nothing and that has happened uh so that's that's another reason um I think those are the the major reasons I think the base of tremendous impacts in the homeless uh but the other piece that I would say Dakota has done a number of ones uh in

terms of financial projects now that I'm dealing with now that I need more money than what was initially projected uh and I've shared with the council and maybe recommendations to the council when we may uh top of them a year ago that my reputation is going to be let's keep the projects that we have going that means we might have to reach in a time and I have to reach in two times to keep me going because I don't let them use the rules the units that we already have that are Ambassador discussion Keith and I were just talking about today uh and so it is conscious so so how do you stand out where we are with the gold um I still think those uh um admirable and good though uh it may take us longer to reach them in which one of them we did extend the time uh but I think for our community I mean that's

56 aboard so that's that's a hard cause and you don't want to pass that on to the homebody and the city doesn't want to have to absorb any more of it than what it has to um I think that it's commendable and I better understand now where the blockage is coming from and these are very things that you can't help right especially when it comes to Workforce especially when it comes to Staffing some things that's that's a pressure everything um I think collectively there's enough brain power in this room that we can help figure that out and there's definitely enough resources on the Planning Commission between chair and mobility and vice chair camera that we could probably help navigate that process with some of the developers that are looking to build in Durham I think that they can offset what they're not

getting independently by partnering with Durham even if now they're you know since they are for a problem because something has always been better than them and I think that that's a conversation legally we can open that up at some point we're trying to um I know the state is currently struggling with that same process with renovating home throughout the state and finding contractors to do the work but I think Durham is unique because the interest is endurance and I think that we can we can help that um I am not about complaints I'm definitely about Solutions and if I got to pick up my nails I think that this is something that we can solve if we need to anyone challenges when the commission is willing we can figure out resources we can help we can meet this goal thank you Mr Williams can I can I add one more uh so I can put a little tooth up earlier answer um I do want to be clear with Council

um rezonings are the legislative decisions so that is with within technical sound discretion whether to agree or rezoning or not so when matters come before Council you are afraid to raise whatever questions and concerns you have about a development so for example a question would be asked are you proposing to offer any affordable units in your development if counsel is not satisfied with the answer received council is free to reject the results um what I think Council needs to be careful about is I would be concerned if during city council said what Austin just said um and I'm just trying to find what Apex is doing I can't find it on the internet but it I think it could be legally problematic if Council said if

developments do not include affordable units we're voting against it so that's a subtle difference but um that's the legal advice I would offer feel free to ask questions listen to the answer vote accordingly but I I'm caution against um a rule like Justin suggested and I'm not sure if that's what Apex is doing thank you Antonio um well really quick okay yeah I I wanted to say thank you awesome I think that ties in really well to the land use to be part of resonance which is when we receive a proper of the only volition of an applicant for affordable housing what they're essentially propering is that they're going to be applying for a four percent tax credit in those cases very rarely is it something that they're self-funding so I think that's an important distinction to make when

they're making those propers they're going to be applying for a four percent high-tech tax credit sometimes they're going to be applying for gas financing purposes but that's what that the body of that that text commitment where that possibility is I just went ahead and add to Don's comments about the conversation surrounding associating a legislative act with affordable housing I do a fair amount of work in a lot of different locales but for years some of that has been in the channel Chapel Hill which I that there's no editorializing in any direction by making that reference but this is a question that um always comes up in their conversations and I I would put it this way um if projects are typically approved with no

affordable housing properties or a reference to affordable housing then project applications will continue to be received with fewer and fewer offers of affordable housing and if projects tend to be approved when there is a reference to affordable housing and some proper in some form um then then that gets noticed by the developer ative okay David that a couple of comments original I was wondering are there other sources of funding I may be dating myself like on title grants or anything that we use for you know repair or upkeeper people's homes and things like that I remember that in the city of Charlotte that I was there we identified areas but then they were able to pull funds like that from the federal government

um the resources that we have not sure about the program specifically yeah I don't know if it's still around or not or maybe dating myself but I do think that there's that actually does a lot of those kind of grants for gift keeping homes up to code and stuff like that much like getting a loan something to think about that's also there's other sources that we're tapping into the resources that we do what you're talking about and how it goes and now you still can limit the development okay yeah which is in the 160 million dollars okay we actually have it just nuclear ongoing now okay uh

and the other comment I was that's good I appreciate that the other thing I was kind of wanting to think about in the comment is I kind of make the distinction between affordable housing and neighborhood development and I think you know when we're trying to make an area affordable or an area affordable we're also building neighborhoods or we're Shoring up neighborhoods are we doing anything for its neighborhood development because I know again I'll and over referencing other cities but when I referenced Charlotte they had a bond for housing affordable housing but they also had one for neighborhood development which would be improving sidewalks streets things like that that are part of the neighborhood and the fabric because if we're putting people into homes we want to have places where they can actually walk to or you know I want to say drive but anyway but to be able to get to different places either

transit or things like that I know that kind of bleeds over into other other departments but is that kind of within scope of what we do here uh yeah yes it is it is an example in uh uh which was um [Music] so a lot of resources more put into new streets uh uh new infrastructure you know I mean there's an interesting well the interesting story that we had to uh first we didn't have to go in and put in I think we're going to put in new uh infrastructure on Chestnut Street but when we got in and tore it up but also we do things uh in this what people and I understand people can think about uh Community Development work is

about buildings right but our work is really about one of the things that we do uh is you know help people with training and you know I didn't talk about the student project we have in their own Public Schools the training class we just had in construction or the uh money that we use to pay for pedestrian Crossings in low mind areas that we've actually done with them funding and what we end up doing with Public Works was finding out what areas what public Crossing that they needed that were down on their risk but in areas that qualified for our funding thank you I just wanted to try to get a better understand the point I appreciate it um I I have some more questions around as you can see on the agenda talked about supplying demand um we I I don't want us to

personally I told myself when you we say affordable housing hearing it without contact sometimes so what I'd like to better understand is how can we truly achieve more affordable housing and that is considering you know the market that we're currently in the process that we currently follow and all of these ideally when they're coming around the type of housing we want to see so we say we want to affordable housing and then it comes from financing part of it because we have the resources that we have here but when I think about the average price of an apartment if you're running right now is fourteen hundred dollars right before like a two bathroom average and to prove you have to make nearly three times as much so we are really excluding a lot of folks that have accessibility to have a

group of their heads and personally that's also what drives a reference to a very very frustrating point when you know we tend to prioritize other ideas or whatever over just the basic can we get a home here now that's oversimplifying an event and I'll use some of the comments that I do see come from our clinic in Chicago and some of you all the advice I take those comments and I'm thinking all right so this is what they would like to see and then reality is hear how many books we have out there just trying to get home and then I think about the economics of it you know the household income versus who's moving here who oftentimes are you know they have a lot more audience so that is the that is the perplexing situation that I'm dealing with we want affordable housing where we have all of these factors on financing it we have a

very competitive market we have a very impressive Market I just don't know how we really achieved that goal uh of the type of housing we want paying for those types of Housing and achieving affordable housing as well so I don't know how to answer that question and that is what that is that is how can we achieve affordable housing with all of the competing actors in our community right now who's moving here the work that they have who's here the weapon they have who are not and I don't know who to throw that question at because I think a lot of them um I asked that question because we all have impact the process that those costs afforded to the clinic the most times so I think

that if someone informed but yeah I think the primary thing I hear when I hear this question is there's a distinction between dependent and I can't remember the last time we even held up at apartment complex we're typically thankful to see in the department of complex controverty because especially an affordable one but even when we've had market rate one it's been nice to see the density and the physical probability most of the cases are 100 Poor Sale and because of that it is highly unlikely that people who are unable to afford a house today are going to be able to purchase this somebody is currently helps us a for sale home is not going to do them any good can be much more than just a market apartment but they definitely can't

achieve the 47 units and so when we get a bunch of four cell unit that's on compared to the Bakers and we'd see that it could have more mixes of uses and provide compartments at a lower price point then yeah we want to see more affordability but when we see an affordable apartment complexes and other rental units that are providing more connectivity they tend to move through pretty easily is

thank you and then find the last thing is long-term affordability what we see in um use for low-income housing tax credits for those at least a third of the Year affordability on it you need that for for sale housing too because there's an argument that you don't allow someone to sell their affordable house on the market but at the same kind of conserve that of course having worked in design and reconstruction a lot of times what you wanted what you've been for don't line up so you've got a price point that you're trying to meet to create affordable housing and that's where the designer creativity has to come in and

you can you can meet the needs of what the price point is that you're operating in on that budget by creating supplement inclusive property you also can offset that by creating sustainable properties so that the burden of electricity and the bird or Heating and Cooling is not on hormone so they can afford more rent because they're not paying more expenses that helps the community and that helps the environment um I think a lot of the tasks of what comes before us and are a lot of properties that where the sky is the limit um I had a classmate put 60 properties before I said 11 acres and the starting price was 500 000. in Durham that's not going to happen like that's not going to work but you can be creative you can create effective long-term housing for people who want to live in Durham but we can possess the ability to actually hold these silence and say hey we're done

want to come here and you can't afford to be here we can help you with that we can help offsets we're going to look at having to do that sooner rather than later with certain housing projects that are about to close we have the opportunity to be able to go forward and be creative in the design a lot of times it's not the number it's what goes into the house that makes it expensive and if we are willing to be developed if we're willing to go in we're willing to create Partnerships with Home Depot with loads with different lumber companies to say hey you can go into a non-profit strategy you can donate part of the number for these projects for housing these companies can write that out they don't have to eat that home they can show that their partnership they can show that they're that they are willing to help communities that builds a relationship that builds an understanding that helps to solve some of the problems but we have to be creative and in sessions like this that help to make that possible because we

come to the set we come to meeting only knowing what we get from the planning department and the planning department knows what they get from Developers if the common goal is to make affordable housing then we have to bring what we have to the table and I know that the design process is what drives up the costs so just real quickly and I um apologize because I have to leave in about 10 minutes to go teach a class in the Duke environmental leadership program in sustainable City so I'm going to ask them your question because it's a really difficult question um and and and I guess I think I would try to frame it in two ways one there's housing and affordable housing and their supply and demand and we've kind of got these kind of cross conversations occurring and we have a limited set of tools that we can use and

I applaud what the city has gotten focusing on uh everything that you just described I bought what planning department has done in years past on expanding housing choices and the direction of what the comprehensive plan and engaged Durham is is kind of moving towards and and the points out of that that I think are relevant to your question into this conversation we have to put housing where people want to be but we also have to put the type of housing that matches the types of households in the right locations and that distinction I think is really important in the context of the narrative that has existed probably for several years for many years um with kind of any potential disconnect between your own Planning Commission and what council may be inclined to do

and and part of it is because of the um the way in which housing is produced in the market economy uh the the you know the design firms the real estate investment entities that are out there is very much targeted towards producing predominantly two types of housing multi-family housing or single-family housing that says you know a really specialized size as many of those that they can produce and those two types Miss huge part of the demand of what we need in Maryland a huge part of the demand of what we need in a lot of locales and so I would just say that the continued Focus of the planning department of the Planning Commission of your leadership um it's needed to to kind of remind everybody in this conversation that every little bit helps every little bit of incremental housing helps and

My Hope Is that as the comprehensive planning process kind of winds down and we move into rewriting the ordinance that you know I think this gets back to how you started your conversation with the question about the timeline My Hope Is that we can move towards more clarity in the ordinance to the extent that land use ordinances can match up with what our needs are you know more clarity so that the private sector developers and the non-profit housing providers are doing the things that our community needs and maybe some of those projects to take a really long time to get through the pipeline don't match up so well because we have a lot of that we see a lot of that come before us every month um yeah support a lot of the comments that have been made a lot with uh just said um I think philosophically we want development that we want to have happen be really easy we want that to be easy

we want to development if you don't want to have happen hard and that's sort of like a way to a lens to view our Udo which is we don't build a city right like as public sector you know we build a few minutes here and there predominant predominantly what's being built is being driven by private developers but we get to shape that development we have the ownership of the DNA of the city it's the UVO is is our journey so you know housing isn't sometimes we treat them like boxes of cereal uh it's it's but housing is inextricably linked with neighborhoods and with the city and with parks and with retail and uh you want to go to the grocery store and you've got to take your kids uh to daycare and you got to go to your job and if we're just talking about housing uh we extract housing from that full conversation of how does it fit in the context of the broader City I think that we're missing

some key pieces we need to build a sustainable Equitable dense compact City uh with lots of green space and all of people's needs we need to make sure that when new and Christopher seeds talk about this different developers are operating in different spaces so when we're talking about 40 50 100 150 acre lot uh Parcels in southeast Durham we're talking about the big the big guys ulti group in our homes funded by institutional investors who want low risk over you know sometimes over High reward and they sort of stand down these same developments all over the country you know you go to Loudoun County or you know outskirts of Atlanta and see the same thing I've talked to these guys and I said like how do we make you build more compact walkable development and we're like we're not going to do it unless you make us do it and we have the power of zoning we have the power to be able to make these big guys out there build a more sustainable Equitable development and so I think

that we need to be using that power uh in the right way and I think that we need to use completely different rules when we're talking about where water and sewer and streets are already in existence so our infill development needs to be much more fine-grained and thought through ahead of time for the the smaller more local Developers so just just about there thank you all right I'm glad you made that comment um so experience so we are just um

are we sending the message in this I'm asking are we trying to send a message that building generational wealth through home ownership is no longer a worry I'll be sending the message that um we just want to build rental properties for now because of the prices that we're in I don't know that that's the message that is being sent but I definitely think that it's arguable um I guess a better question is how or what are we doing to help residents that are here within you if that's what a generation of love comes from because a lot of the elders in the community that are invested can afford to renovate their home so that they're limited which creates the ability for them to be the best or that or Advantage a lot of people have kids kids move away those houses get acquired

and then they get redeveloped so how do we keep residents in Durham a lot of people have left there because they can't afford to be here anymore um a lot of people face a lot of hardships when I looked up there and I'm looking at 56 000 that's 80 of Ami there's a lot of broke teachers in Durham it's a lot of real teachers in Durham and they're paying rent so how do we bridge the gap of Outreach so that generational wealth is the goal but we got to take care of what's here we're worried about what's coming what's here is what's important so we got to take care of making sure that people that are paying property taxes can remain in their home that helps with homes so right now not to overshadow German because I don't like her however there's a lot of homelessness taking place in Raleigh right now because

people can't afford since those surveillances or mortgages are now up by the government people the homeless rate is increasing it's exploding and that's going to be contagious that's going to be the case laid off to taking place what's driving a lot of people living in Durham Tech so what are we prepared to do when those Tech layoffs start to hit and they start to roll in the rolling recession what are we going to do I didn't know about the program that's out there to help people with their home I didn't know it was an option but I should I live here so I think that that's how we can help to bridge yeah new construction is wonderful I love it I don't love town homes but whatever it takes to make sure that people can remain here and we need to create an environmental sustainability and how we build and develop with Durham and it's not just about the environment are we building products and creating opportunities that people can live in or

is it going to be a continuous five to six or seven year cycle of individuals that are living here and then they're moving elsewhere and now we have fast properties that it is how do we address that what's the forethought of the planning Beyond right now so real quick all right because I want I would like so I'm with you and I agree I don't know how we control folks in coming here and I don't know how we control their wealth which means in turn I can't control if a product property owner wants to sell their property I look at Engineers all the time so I I don't know how we control that and I don't know if there's a legal way that we can uh we I hear that a lot we need to take care of the folks out of here and I think that when you are living in Durham that you are the folks that are here how do we keep them here and if appearance we have one of the most robust efforts in the state for affordable housing and it's still not enough our general assembly is sitting

on the sideline federal government sitting on the sideline other than poor policies on public housing I don't know how we actually do that I want to get the yard away at salad and actually determine how we do it so all right and I also need a comment that we have the power of zoning I want to go a little more in detail about that because everyone on this Council but we think that ultimate decision we're making the best decision at that time so I I don't know if any staff want to jump in on that and help clarify because I I don't want to leave this meeting with phrases without content thank you thank you all for a really great um discussion tonight um and uh Nate I want to I'm going to revisit the whole power thing and the power to make developers do what we wanted to do um when it voted before I mean I can vote yay or the zoning decision

uh that that's the actual if you start substituting a variable that is the way in which we exercise how I want you to help me um is there an American city right now that's that decided the power to be making a big development do what they want them to do that we can be in conversation with and see how they managed to do that and what what types of things look like what you just said that we should vote for that will not signal to a highly activated North Carolina legislature that we're engaging in the back of the moratorium helping in a very concrete way I mean I think that we need news I mean uh districts yeah I mean cities all over the country do this yeah district has all of has uh standards has uses it has dimensional standards it has all of these different things within it right it's like it's kind of like all

right you're in this Zone these are the things that you need to do to build up your development um so if we have the right zones that developers can select from uh then they can come to the table and say all right we're going to arrange our development in a more sustainable contact way there it is again the right zones that there are things are there are things you can do by writing and oftentimes what we find ourselves doing is managing outcomes because what can be built there oftentimes is much further away from our values and our vision of what we want to be than the leverage we can exercise through rezone something's going there yeah a no is a yes to something so I ask you again when you say what when you say right because it sounds almost like with our professional uh um Wednesday with all the brain power we have with all the council members that we have it sounded like it was definitely we're just not getting uh uh we're just not doing the right thing

we're not pulling the right lever pushing the right button we're not reading the law a legal landscape correctly so I ask you again in the very direct way what does that look what are we not doing that we should be doing at the city that we've legally do that what do we missing well I'm certainly not making all of those accusations against uh our staff uh but I do believe that I do believe that we have a lot of opportunities uh to create more sustainable development like what like I think that we should have shorter block links I think we should ensure that people can walk to places that they need to get to uh I think that they need to be requiring a mix of housing types they're all different sorts of standards that we can put in place um that can be incorporated into into the zoning regulations you talked a little bit about the zones that are on the ground and you have this decision or this decision and one thing that I think would make it much easier for the council is if you if you weren't deciding between a broken Zone that's already on the ground and a different

Zone that might not be what we think is is best or what kinds of things is best so like Council can proactively resume stuff so if there are zones on the ground and you're saying I don't like that zone so like we have to Zone something else then you should go ahead and proactively rezone that property uh cities do that all the time it's very normal it stays on legal status don't want to do it so uh if you're saying that that there's a Zone on the ground and we don't like it so therefore we gotta Zone it to something else even if it's imperfect um that's sort of creating this dichotomy that's it's not it's not real we don't have to always deal with that dichotomy we can start in the better Zone that's on the ground didn't you just mentioned when we talk sometimes about this is to take a broader area say for instance than the area of neighborhood not just a parcel or an application just to change a certain area you know like when we were talking about Southeast Durham or so

would it be nice if we had just kind of zoned it and just said these are the zones in these areas and then the developers that can build their their parcel applicant by applicant that would almost shortly the the time itself but it would also allow for you know looking at that area from a holistic perspective of saying this is what we want in this area like North Durham or Southwestern something like that it'll last long the current counseling I mean any Council that comes along this isn't it yeah they're not static it's not but it doesn't have to be completely Dynamic you don't like that just maybe an area that we see that we're going to see future growth that um and I see it in a lot of your comments this is why I'm raising it uh and it's being mentioned tonight so be clear I think sometimes we've made the playing

commission something that makes assumptions about what we are not aware of certain Trends or we're not aware of our certain powers uh that we are not aware of certain processing or protocols or whatever and at least for me is something that somebody told me at 45 out of the obsessed with land use of Transit as a former teacher that I am today I would have left it is something I read about obsessively I consistently because to me land use is an extremely important component of affordability period I'm fascinated by what's happening out in California because for a very long time in all communities very active limited or supplies now the state has defined and pretty much stripped all local power and many municipalities because they weren't keeping up with supplies for their basic population and we actually feel that because we are you

know California is a statement through the population in North Carolina is a state that is that's not one Austin Don or two right there's three cities in North Carolina and Raleigh and Durham were next to each other so you all can imagine the pressure we're going to face for the next 10 20. so I just want you all to know that at least for my Improvement perspective I spent a lot of time on this I said on jccp I asked for a developer Partners a lot you know to commissioner Baker's point and I think most often the commissioner and the building you know when I see this we need more um diversity in the South which I agree with I want missing mental housing I think that that's how you build density I think it's smart and if you go to any older industrial city in this country you see it pretty World War II and free all the things you say we don't like

cars and things there are so many other barriers besides our zoning power that prevent us from doing that so when I asked the Lennar home which a very importantly said I want to see a development that is not just single use like just single family and they and they're right the financing around that and then the building code around that is actually a huge barrier for that so it's not just what we're seeing in that case it's other things that are beyond our control and I have had very handy conversations and I do want to push on some of these building codes and I know there's other um allergies are really really interested in Wireless [Music] it's a huge expense it prevents a lot of our minerals how do we think about the financing so that somebody who wants to build a duplex or Triplex isn't carrying the burden when it's just essentially repented what

you're doing is you're creating a for rent entity you're not doing that for sale the other unit you're taking the risk of the primary developer and offering a second year for rent or a third unit front because otherwise we're getting into the condo uh finance and such and that is overwhelming for a lot of our our a lot of developers a lot of folks are just not going to offer so what I'm interested in doing is figuring out what are the levels at the state that we need to do around financing in around our building code I absolutely want them most of them all want the table but I'm also a realist and I've realized one of the barriers are and we have to work together and they don't think by turning things down consistently Community is it enough absolutely not will we keep pushing yes but the um certain communities that were built Out in southeast Durham would not get approved by this Council will be showed up with what they are offering right now some of the key development of the central Farms those would have been

turned down if you have the same thing today and so I just want to offer that to you all I think that we consistently thank our advising a lot of a lot of functionality a lot of thought and absolutely anymore that's why you're seeing actual units affordable units no longer just wanting to people in the development so I guess one question is [Music] [Music] more people and having a generational workers if you have somebody that really go home now usually they leave that home

if they have it to their kids but they can't do that because they're losing it before they even passed because they begin their fourth stand so I'd like to know because I also am solution Focus so fear and to be clear I mean we're free to have a unified development ordinance just like we do um I don't need to deflect this question to the planning department but to be quite honest I'm not sure what exactly the commissioner Baker thinks the planning department should do differently in the unit by development of ordinance um and you know the one thing that I've heard the planning director and consistently say um presumably the city council and the county commissioner to prevent and adopt a new comprehensive plan this year the next step is to adopt a new unified

development events [Music] would incorporate a lot of the goals that are encompassed in the new comprehensive plan so as far as legal implements there's no impediment in the city having been used by development of events I'm not sure how it can be improved that's for professional players to decide and obviously at the end of the day elected officials to approve if I can chime in you know we we are super excited about rewriting the ordinance I think that is understatement of century um and we've got a lot of ideas we you know as staff we are always tight on resources right and we are always doing the body work as best we can with the resources we have but we also constantly keep kind of a list of one of the things you know we have our own wish list of how ways that our ordinance you know should work better things that we would like to see

done I have long anyone that's asked me about the video rewrite and I've told them that my perspective is we got a lot of good predominantly environmental things that exceed minimum standard minimum state standards that I intend and we should keep maybe refined but keep and then we have a whole bunch of things that we need to toss out like all our zoning districts and rewrite zoning districts that align with the comprehensive plan the place types and the types of development that we want to see and there's a lot more fine-grained work that we can do in that so I'm super excited to get into that that hopefully everyone can appreciate that that is a Monumental task that is not a task that staff has been able to tackle in little Omnibus Band-Aids throughout the years that is really a task where you have to stop and holistically look at everything clear the slate and start over and that's why we haven't been able to accomplish something of that scope until now thank you

are you all thinking you're gonna kind of look like the continent will be of adopted certain specific things as like enrollment adoption so we don't have to replace a whole thing or have you all had any thoughts around that we haven't and we want to part of it is you know we're well we have a lot of experience in our own Community we are looking forward to bringing someone who has done this in other places um the Udo we have now the original video was written by a consultant and they brought us I was on that team and they brought us a lot of new ideas from other places things that ironically we we see in the ordinance now and we're like this is dumb why do we do this you know it worked force of the time right um and it was it was a New Concept so we're excited about bringing somebody in um that has different perspective different experiences so if we want to wait and see what they may bring to the table and talk you know collaboratively about what is the best way to you know we need to look at what the structure of the ordinance is going to be like one of my big pet peeves about the ordinance is

that totally not user friendly if it confuses my own staff as to how it should be applied of course it confuses the public right um and so we just need to make it a little more plain language accessible or a lot more accessible there's a whole lot caught up in there so I don't have an answer but that's one of the things I want to tackle with a consultant what is strategically the best way to kind of unroll this thank you and if you need I know what the comp plan we have to do additional resources so I just come on on the record saying yes thank you um thanks so much for that um explanation sorry and until that rewrite is done the reality is there are real-time decisions that have to be made in context right now with the rules that we have and it's clear to me that

Beyond land decisions there are obviously some some prevailing economic theories undergirding some of our views um you know it's not just about land use it it's how do you view our map our macro economy as a region our micro economy as a city um when we folks who are moving here if they decided to stay here and they've got the mean they're going to live somewhere um what I'm concerned about is is is is is not fully invade embracing and I think I saw economics on here the economic impact of spoke with disposable income who we say no to over here but then come closer to our city center with our with their disposable resources and their income and and still impact us um because we say no it's still a Yes

somewhere in it particularly if they decided they're going to be here they have to be here because there's a job here and and sending that buying power further to our inner city or to other areas that are already Under Pressure um I can't wait for the UVO to be Rewritten but until then we are in combat right now we have real world decisions right now and the economic reality that that impose themselves the market reality doesn't hold himself on us uh right now um and and I I think that you know it it it's clear some of us have viewed our vision of what we want our city to look like um and some of us have different economic views and grasp of the economic Dynamics uh at play with a decision yay important and either way we go it's still impacted but in some way or another um so I I think that uh you know I would say you know the book a little on for everybody Melody is always helpful in

terms of looking at some of these decisions because even our nodes are Yes somewhere else are in the city and we've seen it time and time again and one of the lessons we've learned uh from south side and Roman Health development is that very often government action can exacerbate gentrification and converter um in ways you wouldn't even have imagined so as you know as we look at these things um while I'm anxiously awaiting a rewriting UVO I I don't have the luxury or the legal Authority uh to make decisions or cast votes based upon what's coming or what's hopeful without Awakening the attention of a legislature who watches Durham like a hall uh thinking that we're engaging in a moratorium that's a whole other set of problems uh that wouldn't be on the Planning Commission radar but but certainly um would be on our uh so it was a great discussion I really I really do appreciate it um discussion thank you

any other uh comments certain comments I I appreciate it again I guess coming up with strategy so that in a way I know we all have different things but that we're working together for the better of the support of trying to make sure that we give it's 1000 that we need sustainable housing all of that but I I know for someone who's appointed in may I look at your comments and I read those comments and it informs me to be able to sometimes move a student and so I guess I won't read the focus like how do we move forward and to continue to because we all have different opinions which you can continue to work together because all of us want the betterment for the residents so how do we do that and for me it was a little frustrating um because they say you know we got to build build but then I get calls from people in community I was at a meeting the other day three people were addicted for fifty dollars so 50.

so where do we go to like I don't know I guess I just want some actionable things that we can work on to move forward I don't know all right so so uh and just to that comment that tonight was just for us to have some dialogue um my perfect world this is kind of like this is the room this sort of reflects how I may call or checked some of you all and say you know hey what was up with that or you know tell me what you're thinking or thank you for you know really providing some fruit into that case I think it's going to make it better when they come to us uh I do use you all in my process within me as a as definitely a future to uh sort of shape the project and if I'm being at all honest I do get frustrated with some of you all as well because I don't think that you see things uh through the same lens that I ultimately haven't seen that may be

selfish but you know what I think about you know when it's like hey we we have at the right now I believe it's ten thousand people on a waiting list for housing public housing indoors and those are during residence you know and then we have folks that are coming here sometimes we have our advocacy talk and we put it in and board a rational logical fact and that does for us so I that's why I wanted us to come together and there are no more comments I'm sorry the other day and said they got a condo and we got a big it's coordinated somewhere in Germany I just want to do that before what do you mean I don't I don't know I just don't spray painting to me so it's somewhere scraping and you said they got condos and we got evicted so I'm just one of my students I'm trying to figure out who that is what say that again okay because one of my students

yeah and I don't want that going I don't want that to go and check um because at the same day you know it lets me know what they're talking about and who they are yeah we we can assume but you know as a government you know we're responsible for being responsible liberations advice and power decisions you know I personally know you know what they may be insinuating but I just you know I think I seguated into the last topic here of our working relationships together and um you know anytime we you know as we are going through this process you know it's not like we have a decision to accept however or not but we do mitigate that we do shape it as it comes with us legally binded and

legally provided process and relationships matter and anytime that we do not allow something to be shaped and then provided we also can't say we want affordable housing because I I do think supply and demand is a real thing that has to be considered and we have a heck of a lot more people in this city that need a place to live than what we have to offer so we haven't we I personally feel we haven't determined what I've already gone is it going to be the type first or is it going to be the what are we going to re-house it and then shape it the way we need it it's been the health insurance has passed from time ago it opened up and correct me from wrong step but it provided an opportunity to provide more options right we're still not getting there but it provided the opportunity so I think

that's an opportunity for us to start you know really building those relationships And in regards to building relationships that was quoted today I've been standing forever don't criticize teachers to talk about education we don't criticize the doctors for practicing medicine so why are we treating developments something different unless somebody in this room is going to go and build why are we burning that bridge now I personally can't tell anybody what to do appointed but at the end of the day we're doing the people's work or we're not building it and some of the things that I personally

seen come through does not help the relationships that we're trying to do that we're trying to build in this city so in regards of our working relationship I personally am not in the business of building a Burning Bridges I'd rather build them and build a better relationship everybody has a choice to do that on their own but I do want to make sure that we can have an open line of communication I would like for us to be you know of course original as we are and it shouldn't be anything to progress of understanding the process that we have to go through with our planet staff and following the law and all of those things and I think that we can do all of that which is what we're required to do well also standing up our values I really think we I really so I will continue to call many of you and text you and meet with you just kind of get a better understanding of what's coming and utilize our process as a as a means to scrutinize and really shape what's

coming before us so we can't provide it uh welcome at home hi um this is the first time here in my voice um but I didn't feel like tonight's uh conversation I hope that we have more um something will come out of this that you know maybe move and um um you know it was a huge problem if you know there's so many reasons that we've got some of this place a lot of it is you know the fact that those houses were built foreign so um you know

I would kind of agree with that because we had one about a year and a half ago right before and I thought that was a really good I know it was all virtual but it's great face to face here uh but I do think that we do need to do that on a regular basis it seemed like it took too long to get a second one going you probably should do it on either every three or four months or every six months something like that just is a good way of thinking out because um you know the board chain I mean the tuition change turns over quite a bit a lot of them things just since I've been on the board and so I do think that on the commission so I do think that there is uh opportunity to have a dialogue and to work through the issues that we've we've kind of discussed it tonight and I think that's how we build the relationships I know I bet we different ones of you I know I haven't met with others but I would like to one of the things I suggested to chair was to kind of pair us up with uh you know a

council person maybe uh there's 14 of us and seven abuse of maybe two to one and we don't uh overpower you but I mean maybe that's another way to kind of help build the relationships better and uh I think like I said these kind of joint meetings are really good to hear issues and things that are facing us [Music] foreign [Music] is

you know we're all working for the same reason and I I don't I don't care who is coming through our pipeline I definitely don't agree with them all the time I just I think that we have to have a certain standard of Reform and I do think that that makes it it makes the job a little hard sometimes when we do have these medical funding before us and we're we're trying to build a culture and I've kept really careful how I say this because I don't want to get in the field of equipment type of change but we want to set a culture where we can get the best out of the project for the kids in terms of course and I don't think that you know that's always the case I don't think if I don't think is intentionally all the time trying to eat uh burn the bridge but I'll use big comments for example I call him the copy paste comments because he says the same thing every single time and he said tonight

I actually agree with them I want that but it does get frustrating when it's like how do we make that happen I think councilman asked that tonight if that sort of what motivated me to want to have a competition how do we make it better perfect situation we should have how do we when it's inner city how do we make it welcome how do we do all those things with the circumstances that we have before us and that is the question that I want to answer and we started going through that it appears that we are one of the most like I said before one of the most robust municipality and support affordable houses have been saying it's still not enough and I want to get to how we actually make it happen that's what we're left with when it comes to a decision importance so you don't have the luxury of advice we have the reality of maybe that kind

of decisions so that's that's what it is so that that's what I'm saying Express Reading is what we have to make a decision with and that's not just everybody's part of the overall decisions um yeah and I want to be kind of time in respect for what everyone's time but um I do want to kind of summarize some thoughts I had about a lot that we just talked about um first off if um please call me up um I want to emphasize the fact that we

are a planning Mission and that planning is an incredibly broad topic um I went competing school and I specialize in Economic Development what we learned about supply and demand and economic realities it's Economic Development planning it's part of my field and so when we see cases we are looking at it from a planning perspective including housing Economic Development language design there are so many factors that we bring into that in our expertise reflects that we have design folks we have real estate codes we have affordable housing developers land use planners affordable housing and economic development Consultants we're all community members but we have a lot of expertise that is on all of this area so I feel confident that when we provide a recommendation that we are keeping everything possible in mind when we make that recommendation you know

I love to emphasize the fact that we are an advisory body and art it's very clear we are advising you all missing our professional expertise in our professional experience and we respect and recognize you all get to decide whatever policy Direction you want that is the reality of the system you live in and it has its pros and cons it's both the staff projects get to move forward and things you have to get built because they have a less Ferguson process they're something to say they're onto because it's one less check that can be in the way um but we respect that we are an advisory body and you likely will not always agree you may not start agreeing more after this meeting but to make sure that we will be doing our best to advise you in the way that we see best and the last thing I have to say is um you all know every time I see you one

of the last things I say is always up with me um so and I say that to the staff too do you mean anything let me know I'm happy to talk to collaborative brainstorm ideas um thank you I I wanted to first uh apologize this evening and I've been trying to manage but I I did want to make sure I got this private pictures that I really wanted to say I thank you I appreciate really how um dedicated you've been and hearing the cases and and being very Vigilant about what we mean as a community as a whole I appreciate each and every one of you who's different and that's what these areas on this position

who are building who are developing um support development and and I do appreciate every angle and aspect of how um you all come together in a very diverse way foreign [Music] well thank you all right you know appreciate the service and thank you so much for the timing of the hour of upon us I I want to say I I don't feel any particular exacerbation between our relationship at all and because I understand role

um you know when I look at your word product when I look at your comments um I mean I know the difference between advice and advocacy and I just kind of read it that way but I don't feel any I mean I've been an employer and I've been an employee I'm an employer and I've been an employee and I understand roles I understand you know the difference between advisory and decision-making so I don't I don't ever it ain't personal none of this is personal um I will say however that with respect to the expertise on the board um because I've heard it appeal to a number of times and I'm going to speak to the the unique role of a council to deliver the body of an elected body um the president of the United States is the commander-in-chief of the United States military you can't drive an aircraft carrier he can't land the jet he doesn't know how to throw a grenade he's a head Diplomat and can't speak Chinese um but when those people are around him to give up what he does do is capture the value and the collective wishes of the people that elected you so because

you have expertise and some some you know some do that's not really what this job is about we weren't elected to be planning experts we have a whole department with credentials similar to that um and and you know at any time if you want to go from advice to advocacy you should run uh and present those credentials to the people of Durham and to the electorate and see what they say so for an elected body we're not called to be experts in filling potholes or or pulling over cars and writing tickets that's not the nature of this job we are called to be the voice the collective will and wishes of the people of Durham after receiving the best advice that money can buy including voluntary advice as well and then make a decision based upon that so I think it's really important not to conflate that there's only seven of us on the counter we make decisions about areas that far reach seven areas of expertise we will never mathematically be able to have an expert

in every area that we legislate and make decisions in that's not the nature of his job um so with that said I thank you so much for your service and we look forward to continuing to debate Mr Durham is what we do we get at it and we make decisions thank you so I I just want to also say for someone who was employed in a and knew nothing about zoning addicts and operating all of that I appreciate the other footsteps I've got it but I appreciate it the comments I appreciate the whole idea myself [Music] that you put down and so I just wanted to say thank you so much because your comments and your passion and your advocacy has allowed me to be able to be a little bit more informed in making someone um thank you um yeah I think we all really appreciate review I certainly do

it so I do always read everyone um it's one of the first things that I look for in our packet is is really useful and informative um to get to get that feedback from y'all and be able to rely on um your expertise alongside of that of our of our planning department it is it is really helpful and we really and we really appreciate it and I you know we're coming from different perspectives of different you know there are different motivating factors for the city council to think there are different um you know realities that we have to consider there are different um you know there are different people in our ears there's different you know conversations that are happening and so I don't I also you know I agree I don't feel like um I don't feel frustrated I don't feel like there's um

[Music] right I feel like we all want the same thing we all care about our community we all want housing um that is statement and accessible and affordable and sustainable for our people and we're all just figuring out in there and sometimes Community purchases sometimes you'll make her choices and there's never there's no purpose there's no purpose um solution in this you know in this in our economic system or in our particular um moment of you know in strict growth and change um you know it's not the only city dealing with this problem you know this is everywhere in the country right now and everyone is struggling to figure out um how we make sure that everyone in our communities has you know the human right to housing either that housing is not being built primarily by

factors that are predominantly interested is being built predominantly money often um and so we are yeah it's kind of The Struggle Bus um but you know I think we all want to have this Interruption um and I really appreciate Health Service and the work that you do and your time um and helping us understand you know perspective and is really really helpful and I I encourage my colleagues to reach out to planning municipality and invite for uh some of you already know I haven't had a chance to speak with or talk to but I hope we can get there and just really appreciate um benefits so uh I don't have any other comments if you want to have any comments it's out of eight o'clock I didn't realize it until 80 30 but um

I'd like to thank you for what you do I value your expertise experience and you're being here on the commission I'm hoping that this would have further dialogue I thank you to our staff uh thank you all for continuing to energize thank you all for being here tonight and um everybody have a great night thank you three there would be