City Council · Regular Meeting · October 20, 2025

Good evening everyone. Welcome to Durham City Hall. Welcome to the chambers. m.

and I will call this meeting to order and ask that you join me in a moment of silence. >> Amen. >> Thank you. I'll now pass it over to Council Member Freeman for a moment of s um pledge of allegiance.

>> Thank you. It's our practice to stand and salute the flag. If you'd like to join us, all >> Thank you. Madam clerk, will you please

call the role? >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mayor Williams >> here.

>> Mayor Prom Middleton, >> I'm here. >> Council member Baker >> here. >> Council member Cabayro >> here. >> Council member Cook >> here.

>> Council member Freeman >> present. >> Council member Wrist >> here. >> Thank you. >> We'll now uh start with our ceremonial items.

It is uh October breast cancer awareness month and I'll ask council member Tabiro to lead us in a proclamation. >> Good evening everyone. Um if I could have Richard Avaret from the American Cancer Society if you want to come up here and join me while we read the >> Hey Richard, good to see you. Come on up.

Good evening. So, uh, this is the proclamation uh, for breast cancer awareness month. Whereas far too many Americans face the shock of a breast cancer diagnosis each year, many of us know someone or have family members who have battled cancer. One in eight women will be diagnosed with breast cancer in their lifetime, including an estimated 320,000 in the US this year.

And one in 883 833 men will be diagn diagnosed, including about 2,800 new cases. And whereas the American Cancer Society created by making strides against breast cancer to unite communities, companies, and individuals with the shared goal to end breast cancer as we know it, the movement celebrates courage and hope, bringing together survivors, thrivers, caregivers, and advocates to save lives, save lives. And whereas access to screenings and early detection are vital in fighting breast cancer. The American Cancer Society provides nationwide tools and support, including 247 247 helpline and online resources connecting

patients, caregivers, and families to critical services. Because of increased screenings, early detection, and better treatments, mortality rates have declined and survival rates have improved. And whereas making strides remains the large the nation's largest and most impactful breast cancer movement, supporting survivors, thriv caregivers, and families alike. Now therefore, I, Leonardo Williams, mayor of the city of Durham, North Carolina, do hereby proclaim October 2025 as breast cancer awareness month in the city of Durham and hereby urge all residents to support the American Cancer Society in making strides against breast cancer of the triangle in their mission to end breast cancer.

Witness my hand in the corporate seal of the city of Durham, North Carolina this 20th day of October, 2025. [Applause] Good evening, mayor, members of the city council, and the audience. My name is Richard Aert. I serve as the executive director of the American Cancer Society

for Central and Eastern North Carolina. On behalf of our staff, volunteers, survivors, and caregivers, I want to thank the city of Durham for recognizing breast cancer awareness month and for standing with families across our community who are affected by the disease. In North Carolina alone, more than 6,600 women will be diagnosed with breast cancer this year and more than a thousand will lose their lives. But thanks to early detection, innovative research, and community support, survival rates continue to rise.

Right here in the triangle, the American Cancer Society provides free rides to treatment through our road to recovery program and connects patients and families to 247 support in over 200 languages through our national helpline at 1800227-2345. These vital services help ease the burden of cancer for families right here in Durham. We invite you all, all Durham residents to join us this Saturday morning starting at 8:00 at the Durham Bulls Athletic Park for making strides against breast cancer. It's more than a walk. It's a movement of hope,

resilience, and unity. You know, 30 years ago, I lost my mother to breast cancer. Grew up in Eastern North Carolina. She was treated right here at Duke.

But since then, we've had a 34% decrease in fatalities, and we have an ambitious goal. Thank you. And we have an ambitious goal in the next 25 years of a 50% decrease in fatalities. We're going to win this war one day.

And it's because of communities like Durham. Thank you again, Mayor Council. Thank you for your leadership, your partnership in community to a healthier, stronger Durham. Together, we're saving lives and improving lives every day.

Thank you for your support. >> Thank you. I'm now going to ask Council Member Ris to join me for the next proclamation.

All right. If you uh are a current student at my alma mater and associated with the tennis team, please join me up here. the NCCU. Just a quick brief story.

Um, for you all students who don't know, um, I started a tennis team at my high school because we only saw people playing tennis on TV and they were all white and there were no black kids playing tennis. So, we started it. We sucked, but we uh wanted to, you know, have that representation and uh we got better and better and better. And NCCU is one of the schools that offered me an opportunity to play tennis.

However, it conflicted with band practice and I chose band. So, I went to about five practices at tennis and it just didn't work out. But I'm glad that you guys are

there now and you're winning championships. So, I'm going to ask Council Member Riss to come down and read this uh proclamation. But I wanted to stand with you all tonight. Uh, congratulations.

Congratulations. I know people usually invite the basketball team and the football team and that's it. But you guys are rocking it. Thank you, Mr.

Mayor. The mayor knows I'm a committed tennis player. Um, I've played against Curtis Lawson, enjoyed some matches, and like John Mlan here is one of the premier tennis instructors I know. A phenomenal teacher.

John, thank you for all the coaching you've given me. He's amazing. So, I'm so honored to read this proclamation tonight. CU National Tennis Championships were hosted at the renowned South Fulton Tennis Center in Atlanta, Georgia. CU national title with a total of 82 points.

Whereas the finalists, Alabama State and Tennessee State, finished with 57 and 52 points, respectively. And whereas NCCU's Naresh Bari was the flight B singles champion. And whereas NCCU's Naresh Barathi and Antonia Pankowski were the flight B doubles champion. CU CU national title that the North Carolina Central University men's tennis team has captured.

The last title being won in 2014. CU National Champions Month in the city of Durham and hereby urge community members to celebrate the accomplishments of this hometown team. Witness my hand in the corporate seal of the city of Durham, North Carolina this 20th day of October, 2025. [Applause]

>> Good evening. I would just like to um briefly give a um a very special thanks to my coaching staff, coach John McClean and coach Gabrielle Kuchalan Jac uh and each of our players uh beginning with our seniors um Kareem Abdul Hakeim from Indonesia, team captain Neiman Swag Sneeed from Augusta, Georgia. Uh, senior Luke Lucas Artus from Kerry, North Carolina. Uh, sophomore or junior um Leo Nardo Forier Geripi from Montreal, uh, Canada. Anthony Pancowski uh from Gora, Poland.

Senior uh Rodrigo Alves from Porta, Portugal. um co- captain Naresh Barathi Mithrron Barathi uh from Tamal India and our volunteer assistant Miss Adrien Charleston and our head women's coach Miss Sophia Ratchi Kuchalan and I I thought it was important to recognize each of uh the members of the team and our staff by name because uh this team is very unique in that they embody um the just the the essence of student athletes. What wasn't mentioned is that this team also was recognized as having the highest team GPA in the country for and I'll repeat that again in the

country. So for all division one uh men's teams, uh this North Carolina Central University team not only rocked it on the in the field of competition, but they are also excellent students. Um we're always very involved in the community as well. And so again, I'm just I can't say enough positive things about just how proud I am of the team. Um, I am so delighted that our mayor is also an an alumnist distinguished alumnest of our uh, North Carolina Central University and I just thank everyone for your support. >> Goodbye.

All right. Thank you all so much. At this time, I will start to my left with announcements. >> Good evening, everyone.

Thank you so much for being here. Um, just a couple of short things because I know we've got a full agenda. I just wanted to say a happy 160 years to Mount Zor. Uh, the church has been in that location in Merrick Moore for 160 years, which is incredible.

Um, so I had the opportunity to go worship with them yesterday. Oh my gosh. Yes, yesterday. It's been a long day.

Um, uh, yesterday and and was so grateful to be welcomed into that space. uh and just am immensely grateful to spaces like Mount Zor and others that have existed as pillars in our community for a long time. Uh so I just wanted to shout them out. Um I also want to say that early voting has begun. Um we've talked about this a lot, but I know it's not as sexy as a federal election, but

your uh local electeds up here, you're all here, so you know that we're doing the work. Um but we are responsible for land use decisions and for local ordinances and resolutions and all of these things that um actually really impact local folks lives in a way that I think federal um elections don't really touch. So um do remind your friends to go out and vote. Please go cast your own votes.

Um would love to see Durham in a blue moon election uh shattering the voting record. So I hope you all go out and vote. And those are my announcements. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Council Member Baker. >> I'll be brief as well. Um, talk a lot about the UDO. The Unified Development Ordinance is the DNA that shapes the world that we live in.

We don't own the means of producing our city for the most part, but we do own the DNA that shapes the way that uh our city gets built over time. We only update the unified development ordinance couple two three times per century. So each of these

opportunities to rewrite our unified development ordinance impacts uh generations to come. So these are important moments. So tomorrow the consultant team is virtually presenting uh module three their their third uh grouping of of uh updated uh regulations. com.

They are presenting the environmental protection uh subdivision and infrastructure uh provisions. On November 13th, there's going to be an in-person meeting at the Durham County Administration building. And November 18th, there will be virtual meeting. com.

So, please uh plug in and pay attention and engage with that. That's it for me. Thank you. >> Thank you, Council Member Gabrio.

Thank you. Good evening everyone. Uh just a few announcements. Uh last week I was able to be um at a conference, really a summit for Latinx ed. They're the

largest uh Latino student success nonprofit in the state of North Carolina. Uh it's one of the largest gatherings of Latinos in the state of North Carolina every year. Uh and so it was really a wonderful experience to be with them uh last year. I will say, you know, it's getting harder and harder um for folks.

We opened our session with um lots of conversations around safety. Uh it was incorporated into the summit in a way that hadn't had to be before uh because there were so many folks with uh mixed documentation status in their families or as participants. Um and uh it was a it was a very joyous celebration but also very sobering because of so many attacks on immigrant communities in this moment. So, I just want to lift up all of the organizers for that incredible summit and everyone who attended.

Uh, it's something that gives me a lot of strength and joy when I do get to go. So, um, again, the organization is Latinx Ed. Uh, they're an incredible organization doing work all across the state in service to Latino students. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Council Member Freeman. >> Thank you. Good evening, everyone. Uh just definitely want to make sure to acknowledge breast cancer awareness month because I know it does touch a lot of um women and men as well.

And then also congratulations to NCCU uh tennis team. I'm also an Eagle so um fortunate to have that in common. And uh just a big shout out for Indigenous People's Day and Italian Heritage Day as well. I um I definitely want to make sure that I mention that early voting is now and that there are five locations and the Durham main library is not one of them.

Um please please please make sure you figure out your plan and um get out and vote. Um, I also want to send a very hearty um, shout out to Mount Zor and acknowledge that they've been doing a lot of community engagement work. Um, trying to make sure that people understand civics in ways in which I hope that more of our community will

engage and um, looking forward to seeing what comes next with them. And uh defin and also in in honor of NCCU's uh ultimate homecoming experience this weekend, I want to make sure that you all know to stay off the road if you can ride the bus, walk, um avoid anywhere near Fedville Street or Austin Avenue and you will be you'll be okay. Um the game is Saturday. Um definitely u want to avoid that area if you can. Uh uh last but not least, I do want to just make sure I do share that it is Med and since 1983, presidents have proclaimed National Med to recognize outstanding accomplishments in minority businesses, minority business enterprises, and to honor the corporations and financial institutions supporting minority business development. Uh Durm's Med Week this week celebrates the achievements of minority minority entrepreneurs and affirms government,

business, and community organizations commitment to principles of e equal opportunity. It is our hope that we'll celebrate not only the minority and womenowned businesses um and the economic vibr vibrancy that they bring to our city but also to continue to see their growth into to promote their growth and success and making sure that you all know and are aware of all the events happening this week um at the Durham Convention Center. Other than that, I think that covers all of my announcements. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Council Member Barrist. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Good evening, colleagues, staff, residents here and online.

Good to see you all. Um, a couple things. I know we have a lot going on tonight, so just to keep my comments brief. Thank you, Council Member Freeman for mentioning for mentioning Mede.

Um, and I want to thank the city and the staff for spons and actually our sponsors for organizing what was a great event. I was there today with with Bo and a number of other staff for the opening and the keynote uh today. Amazing celebration of minority businesses. And I also want to say for

the people that are urging this council continually to stand up to the stuff we're getting from the state and federal government, I want you to know why a lot of folks are while a lot of folks are backing off of supporting minority economic development. This council and the staff is 100% supportive of our minority economic business development business community and supports Mede 100%. So I'm glad to see the staff doing that. It's a really important statement of who we are here in Durham.

I know people are here for a couple of really important hearings and that's an important way that we do democracy and local government. Um, but I also want to let you to know that's by no means all that we do here at the city of Durham. Um, in case you're not aware and in case you haven't gone through the whole agenda, there's a bunch of items on this agenda that we work through the work session that are critical pieces of how we do local government here in Durham. And I me I just want to mention a couple.

I think they're not going to get pulled. They may get pulled, but I definitely get pulled, but I want to make sure you're all aware of this. Um, number one, there's a biofilic cities resolution. And shout out to the folks from the New Hope Alliance for bringing this forward to me. um that commits us along with peers in 30 other cities worldwide to being an urban area that

embraces um that embraces nature and the environment as essential elements of urban living and commits us to a couple metrics to track our performance in that. So this is a really critical statement we're making as a city. There's also in the agenda a page roads apartments deal that's 100% affordable housing 160 units 100% affordable and 60% AMI or below. It's not funded by a profer.

We get sometimes we get affordable housing through profers. It's not city-owned land. It's not city subsidy through the bond fund. Is essentially an agreement or like a deal with um u uh multif family mortgage revenue bonds and tax credit investors that are invested in this project.

We're doing this with our partners at Durham Housing Authority. It's another way we have many tools in the toolbox. It's one of many ways that we are ensuring that more affordable housing is getting built in Durham to meet the needs that we have. And I want to make sure you're aware of that. There's also a model uh pilot of lending for backyard ADUs for families that qualify by income. It's one way we can help homeowners to build

their wealth as homeowners, but also create more affordable housing units. This is really a model um a model thing that's funded by your housing bond um developed by the staff. I appreciate the staff working through the details. It's a complicated thing, but it's a model thing not many communities are doing.

Um but also working with our contractor at Cororm Homes to build these ADUs model thing. and stay tuned for the results on that. Finally, we're approving additional funds for the Durham Affordable Housing Loan Fund. Another way we're creating affordable housing.

That's a loan fund that we at the city, the county, and Duke University are contributing to to allow us to quickly acquire affordable properties that are coming out of their tax credit phase, the 30-year phase, to acquire those quickly, bridge those over to nonprofit developers and keep them as affordable housing units. So there's a lot that we're doing here. All important ways that the city is working often under the radar screen to make this a better community for all of us. So thank you, Mr.

Mayor. >> Thank you. Um Mayor, >> thank you and good evening, your honor. To my honorable colleagues, to our staff, to all who are in chambers tonight uh with us in person, whatever

platform you may be uh watching on. Very quickly, I want to thank my colleagues and associate myself with their comments about medeek, which in this current climate feels more like an act of defiance uh than just observance. So, I want to associate myself with those comments. And finally, I want to say Dwali Mubarak uh to all of our residents and friends and neighbors who are celebrating Dwali uh today.

May the light forever defeat the darkness. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. >> Thank you so much um to my colleagues for all of your remarks.

Um, yes. Happy homecoming, NCCU. I look forward to uh seeing you at some of the events this week and um having a good time. For disclosure to everyone who has not noticed, the parade has already happened.

It was last Saturday and I think for the first time since I graduated, I missed the parade. So, there are some changes that were made uh for the sake of safety and just reconfiguring some things. Um, but so next Saturday will be the game and it'll be just a game. But uh, and I'll give

this announcement um, reluctantly, but the yard will be closing after the game. Um, normally we go to the bowl and have a great time. So, since the bowl will be closing around 6 or 7 o'clock, please come downtown uh and spend your money and your tax dollars um throughout the city and uh enjoy all of what Durham has to offer. And hopefully in the future, we'll be able to work together more uh as a city and the universities uh Duke and NCCU to um promote a a citywide experience.

And I think just many of the remarks I was going to give has already been made. Uh, happy Dewali. Of course, I'll be out there with them tomorrow with the Indian community at BAPS. Uh, I know there are thousands that will be convening.

I look forward to joining them tomorrow. Um, and of course, Med Week. Yes. Uh, you're right.

It it does feel like an act of defiance. Mayor Pro Tim. Um, because you know, we they're there, uh,

Washington is watching and trying to shut us down in every way possible. Um, it's just not happening in Durham. We're going to continue to stand on our values. Um I I I did want to thank U.

Council Member Ris, you you brought up some really really valid points. We we're we're always talking about the city is not doing enough. Uh but to you know as we thinking about every possible way that we can address affordable housing to address housing supply in general I it feels great to be amongst the council where we're putting money you know not only do we tax ourselves for affordable housing we are actually putting money toward ADUs. Um we we we are putting money toward ADUs to make sure that we can put those in you know more backyards uh to to house more people. we are putting more money into affordable the affordable housing loan fund. Uh the these are just some of the tools in our toolbox that we are

addressing. So uh and tonight we're going to address a really big uh policy that I look forward to discussing that will uh address more of the actual conditions. So uh we have a lot of work to do. I'm going to keep my comments short and get right to it.

And I know there are some signs in the audience. I will respectfully ask that we not hold those signs up because it blocks the view. And normally I do not, you know, try and enforce, please don't char me. Uh I try not to, you know, overly enforce because I want to make sure that everyone's voices are heard, but please don't block the view of others.

Uh so I ask to if you I I'll ask if you just you have a sign, hold it in front of you rather than up and blocking people. All right. At this time, I will ask our um manager to address your priority items.

>> Good evening, mayor, mayor prom, members of council. Uh the city manager's office only hasformational items this evening. That is that for agenda item number nine and number 16. Presentations were received during the October 9th work session for these items.

Those are all my priority items this evening. attorney. >> Good evening. U Mr.

Mayor, mayor prom and members of city council. Um senior deputy city attorney Fred Lamar sitting in for the city attorney Kim Rayberg. Um the city attorney's office has no priority items. Thank you.

>> Thank you madam madam clerk. >> Good evening Mr. Mayor, Mr. Mayor Prom and city council members, the city clerk's office has no priority items this evening.

>> Thank you. Could you come back up here for a moment also? May prom. >> Thank you. The priority items having been discharged. We will now uh read the

consent agenda for the record. The consent agenda is comprised of items that the council has already had opportunity to do a deep dive in at a previous work session and can be passed with one vote. However, uh any member of the public or any member of the council is uh in a position to pull an item. I'll read that now.

Beginning with our consent agenda item number one. Item number one, Mayor's Hispanic Latino Committee appointment. Item number two, Durham Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Commission appointments. Item number three, Durham Convention and Visitors Bureau Discover Durham mayoral appointment.

Item four, Durham Convention and Visitors Bureau Discover Durham joint city county representative appointment. Item five, participatory budget steering committee appointment. Item number seven, approval of the biophilic resolution. Item number nine, Durham Rail Trail project design update and professional services contract amendment with the John R.

McAdams Company Incorporated suspending for a second. All right. Item number 10, third amendment to project management consulting services

contract with Turner and Towns and Huey LLC. Item number 11, rooftop PV preassessment and design build contracts with Renew Energy Solutions LLC. Item number 12, first amendment to contract for citywide window washing services. Item number 13, resolution providing approval of Pedro Apartments and the financing thereof with multif family housing revenue bonds.

Item 15, amended and restated loan agreement with self-help ventures fund, Durham affordable housing loan fund. Item 16, contract with Cororm Houses LLC to administer the affordable accessory dwelling unit ADU loan pilot program. Mr. Mayor Pro, I like to pull that item.

Item number 16 is pulled. >> Continuing item number 17, first amendment to the central square solutions and support agreement. Item 18, amendment number one to the professional engineering services contract with CDM Smith, Inc. for lead and copper rule pro copper rule program management.

Item number 19, contract amendment one to the service contract with ADS Environmental Services LLC for sanitary sewer flow and rainfall monitoring comprehensive service and maintenance. Under general business agenda item number eight, approval of ordinance revision to chapter 10, article 6, housing code section 10-241. And under general business agenda public hearings, item number 22, Cliff Street Partial Street closing. Item number 23, consolidated zoning map change, Ravenstone Commercial.

Item number 24, consolidated annexation, Wake Olive. Item number 25, consolidated zoning map change, 1607 East Cornwallis Road. That ends the reading of our published agenda. Um, and we can pass it with the exception of item number 16, which was pulled by council member Baker.

Mr. Mr. Mayor, you wish to reassume the gavl? >> I'll assume the gavl.

>> Thank you. So, all items have been read. Uh, and with the exception of item number 16, I'll entertain a motion to

>> So, move. >> Sorry. Um, madam. Yeah.

Madam clerk, could you please open the vote? Is everyone voting? Oh, there we go. Thank you.

Please close the vote. >> Motion passes 70. All right, I will start with item number 16. >> Thanks, Mr.

Mayor. Yeah. 75 million. It came through. There was a lot of I think good discussion during the Thursday work session. I just want to um raise some of the the key

facts about this item and then I I do have a question uh for staff. Um I'd like to turn it over to colleagues, see if they have any questions. So there the goal here is uh 20 new accessory dwelling units over the next two to three years. 75 million.

Um some of this is for uh work products. Um there's also payment for each of the units uh to to Korm homes. The goal is uh at 80% area median income. We don't currently correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't currently have a a term for the the amount of time that we want that to be affordable, right?

Um if you can correct me, that that'd be great. Uh and then yeah, this is for the next to to develop 20 new accessory dwelling units over the next two to three years. Is that more or less correct on some of the high level pieces of of this contract? >> Uh good evening, Matt Walker, uh Housing and Neighborhood Services. That that's correct. The term of the loan is

proposed for 30 years. So the affordability would be for 30 years for the term of the loan. >> Okay. The term loan is is the term of the loan is 30 years.

The affordability period is >> would they would run concurrently >> is for 30 years as well. Yes. Okay. Okay.

>> Uh thank you for for clarifying that. Um, so I only wanted to raise this uh because we we h we bring in a lot of uh housing that is affordable to at the 80% area median income level through uh private sector developments. Um I tend to prefer us to focus public dollars on the deeply affordable uh housing and need for affordable housing. those units that are affordable to 50% 40% 30% area mean income.

Uh this and also and also housing that is permanently or long-term affordable. Um and this isn't this isn't quite there. Um so uh I also have a

little bit of heartburn over the fact that we only received one response to the request for proposal. That being said, um I do believe that uh there are challenges for homeowners to be able to uh get loans to build accessory dwelling units in their backyards. Um banks don't make it particularly easy and haven't for a long time. I don't know if that's changing, but that's been the case for a while.

" two, um this isn't a grant. This is a loan. Um and we this is not a forgivable loan. That's something you said you all might want to look into, but um that's not something that I necessarily support at this point.

So, this money does come back over 30 years, 30-year term. That's correct. >> To to the city, right? So, this is a a low interest 2% rate uh loan. Right. So, um, so I did want to raise, uh, those issues, um, just that there is some

heartburn, but that I do believe this is an objectively good thing that the city can step in and kind of fill this hole. I would prefer that it weren't the city. I would prefer that banks were doing this, but they're not. And so, I do think that there is a role for for the city to to play here.

Um, and I did want to raise that. And I also just wanted to raise that at this point, I do not support I want to be on the record. I do not support that this uh become a forgivable loan at this point. So I want to go on the record there.

Um and that is that is it for me. Any my colleagues have any other comments? >> Thank you. >> Yep.

Go ahead. >> Thank you, Council Member Baker, for your comments. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Yeah. Um this is, as I mentioned in my opening comments, this is a model pilot program. And let's be clear, also should clarify. I'm on the board of the Self-Help Credit Union, which is a nationwide CDFI that makes affordable loans to people that wouldn't normally get a loan, provides banking products to folks that wouldn't normally get affordable banking products. Even missionline developers like Self-Help cannot make this work. Just to be honest

with you, no bank is making this kind of ADU lending product. It doesn't exist. And so, what the city is doing is stepping in and providing some financing to make it work for the for the folks trying to do this. The reason why we only had one applicant is like this is a real innovative thing.

We've got a great partner in Quorum Homes, but again, no bank is lending right now to this kind of product. No bank. And so we're doing a I with the B it's exactly why we want to use the bond funds to do this to do some innovative stuff to fill a market gap that's not being filled. So I appreciate staff working through the details and I appreciate our partners at Cororm Housing and I look forward to this.

We're going to learn from this pilot. We talked about this at the work session, but I look forward to working learning and working with the city staff to make this work to to to actually like do a couple things, right? We're creating affordable housing, but we're also building wealth for homeowners at the same time. So, if we can make this work, which I think we can, this is a model project.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. >> Go ahead. >> Just a question. Is there a stipulation in this agreement that the housing has to be affordable?

>> Yes. >> So, not just as a build, but also as a rental. >> That that's the key to the program that the renters are 80% and below AMI. But ultimately the the outcomes are affordable rental units >> up to 80%.

>> Yes. >> And is there any any additional funding made available if they're doing 60 50 or 30% AMI? >> Not at this time. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you to my colleagues. Um I have a couple more questions. I had asked some of these at the work session and I just want to go back through. Uh the first one is how how are we going to ensure that these units get leased up. I didn't feel like I got a good answer from this and my concern is that um we see ADUs being used for Airbnbs and for short-term rentals. Um, and I just I'm a bit confused on how we're going to ensure that they are doing the things

that we would like and that they're housing people at 80% AMI or lower. Thank you. So, um, the project goes through permitting and design, construction and completion. At completion, we have a uh compliance department, compliance division that ensures that the units are rented to income eligible families.

>> What is the time frame on that? >> What is the time frame on ensuring that they are leased up? >> At at completion, we will um we get information from the owner about who they're renting to. They'll have to show that the family household that they're renting to is income eligible.

Once that's done, that information will be transmitted to our compliance division who will um approve that that family meets the the guidelines to move into the unit. >> Yeah. I want to follow up on two things. First, how long do we plan until there is completion? What does that timeline

look like? >> Generally, it looks like um a year. >> And so, we give these loans out and for a year, we are not able to do anything. And then after the year, we are dependent on the homeowner to give us who they're leasing it out to.

And then we oversee how much their income is. >> Let's say estimate a year for construction. At construction completion, we'll get a certificate of occupancy. The homeowner will do their outreach and they will tell us who they want to rent to.

we will verify the income eligibility of the of the new household and we will approve that household to be moved in for that um homeowner to be in compliance with their loan agreement. >> Is there a time frame in which people have to lease this their ADUs up >> specifically at so that the house doesn't sit vacant so that the unit doesn't sit vacant? Um, I can't think of a specific time frame, but remember that the homeowner is paying on the construction cost. So, it

behooves them to lease up as fast as they can. We haven't made um any determination like our multif family rental that they have a specific time to lease it up. So, I couldn't give you a specific time, but we would expect that it would be leased within 60 days normally after completion. I mean, it doesn't necessarily behoove them to lease it up as quickly as possible.

There are many reasons why you would not want to lease it up. Um, one of them would be a sale of your land with an hugely added benefit on it. And another would be that if you were going to rent it out to like an Airbnb situation, that wouldn't be considered a lease. So, they wouldn't necessarily have to get that approved.

So, I do I just want to make sure that we are actually like >> following up because it's already a year out and this is a lot of money that we're lending and I just want to make sure that we are actually following up. I just feel like um the details like feel really fuzzy to me. >> Okay. So, if I if I understand you correctly, the homeowner will have a loan agreement

with with the city that specifies how this loan keeps them in compliance with the the objective of the program. So, they would not leave the unit vacant because if they did leave the unit vacant, they wouldn't be in compliance with the loan agreement. In terms of the number of days, you know, I I would say 60 days would be normal for a unit to be leased up because the homeowner would be incurring, you know, cost for a unit to be vacant. Um, if they did somehow rent it through an Airbnb, they would automatically not be in compliance with their loan agreement.

>> And what is the penalty for non-compliance? they would be in default on that loan agreement and generally the loan would need to be repaid >> immediately. >> Yes. >> Okay.

So they >> I mean they'd have a cure period but they would be in default. >> Okay. But I just I'm like okay. So they are not in compliance if they don't lease up in a certain amount of time but we're not giving them an amount of time. So it's there's like a period where they might

or might not be in compliance. 60 days but maybe not >> something we can get in details on. >> So I I would I would say 60 days and I would make sure that that would be clear in the loan agreement so that the units wouldn't sit vacant um in your example for extended period of time. >> Okay, >> that makes sense.

>> Yes. Okay. Is that something that we're adding to this that we're adding to this? >> I think I think it's something that we've made clear at this point.

>> Okay. Um, all right. The next thing that I want to ask you about is that, um, you said in the work session that these would average about $80,000 to build. >> Um, and my concern is that, uh, I have not seen that that is actually the average for the ADUs that Cororum is building.

And so I was hoping you could address the disparity there. >> So the $80,000 was the average of the subsidy per unit. Cororum has indicated that they have an $80,000 model that they could build, thereby being able to

build the unit without debt for any any specific homer. It would be their smallest unit. >> Sorry. So for if they don't get the 80,000 model, um then the homeowner subsidizes the remainder.

>> That's correct. >> Okay. So, we we we do want to make sure that the homer homeowner does put some equity into the deal and that folks that don't have the equity that's needed, we'd be able to help them a little more and folks that can put more into the deal wouldn't need as much subsidy. >> And that averaged out to about $80,000.

>> Okay. Thank you. Sorry for like the detailed questions. I know we went over it one time already.

I'm just It's a big amount. It's a It's an awesome pilot and I think that we all really want it to be successful and so I'm just like trying to make sure that it feels ready to go and I also am like like my colleague feeling a little bit leerary that we only got one >> um response to our RFP. I mean I'm familiar with Quorum and I know that they do good work in the community. So

it's not a concern necessarily about that. It's just um I it's a large investment and I want it to be successful. really want us to be able to scale it up and so >> so so do I. And you know, one of the things if if you allow me, >> um it's a pilot program.

So if it sounds like I don't have all the answers, it's because I don't have all the answers because it's a pilot program. Uh and we want to make sure we hit the things that are important. We want to make sure that the lessons that we learn help us to make a program better if we're going to continue it. And um we're going to give it our best shot.

And so how closely like will y'all be working with Cororm to develop the the actual procedural steps? I know that they get to they are doing some design because some part of this amount is to quorum for design of the project and then some of it is is the loan. Um how closely will you all be working in terms of that design or >> ve very closely very closely um the program manual I think is is the key at

this point to make sure that Porum and the city are on the same page so that we can turn and have a public facing document that shows how the program is going to run and what makes it um folks eligible. I I did get a lot of um input from folks calling about it. So, I know that there's a lot of interest in it, but um because it's a pilot program, we have to kind of get on the same page between the city and quorum. >> So, we'll be working very closely.

>> Cool. Thank you. Thank you for answering all of my questions. And I just want to say to you that um I think that this is one good tool that we have in our toolbox and um and I just want to make sure that it is it's done well.

Um, and also I want to recognize that there are a lot of barriers to home ownership. And so I know we're talking about low-income homeowners, um, but there are a lot of barriers to home ownership. And I I want to make sure that we're doing an equally diligent job of ensuring that our, um, home homeowners assistance program is actually back and working um, and accessible to folks who really need it. Um, and looking at ways for folks to

actually be able to get into home ownership and and have access to that type of wealth that folks already do have. Thank you. Thank you so much. U go ahead.

>> Thank you. Just one quick question. Um am I am I hearing I think I heard an additional detail and I'm trying to make sure I heard it correctly. Is Quorum serving as a like a contractor for the city or is Quorum operating as the contractor to build or both?

>> The better answer is is both. They're being hired as the administrator for the program to help families move through the process to build an ADU because it's, you know, they can't just buy a unit. They have to go through design, permitting, talk to their bank, see how much equity they have, see how much they can bring to the deal and and get it built and deal with contractors. 7 million is to

kind of run through quorum. It doesn't run through multiple different contractors. It runs through only quorum. >> That's correct.

>> Okay. >> Thank you. I just wanted to say that I'm excited to support this item. There was lots of questions at the work session.

I feel very comfortable. I understand it's a pilot. We don't have everything answered. That's the point.

75 of the 95 million and actually 160 million between the $95 million bond referendum that we put in front of the voters in 2019 and the additional funds through the federal government. So the housing program which is forever home dur Durham is 160 million and actually more because we also put American rescue plan dollars behind some of the affordable housing projects um because of construction overruns during the pandemic when well and that really hasn't come down. So I just want to remind folks that it's a very small percentage to run a pretty interesting pilot. I also would like to remind folks that Quorum Homes, the reason that he began this is because he

built an ADU in his own backyard and he realized what a challenge it was and how hard it was. And so that is the he's a I think a former Durham public schools teacher. Um and that's how he got into housing. Uh he was just trying to be a good neighbor and provide housing and realized a huge gap that's out there for folks who want to be innovative and creative about how they're providing housing for their neighbors.

And so I just really want to highlight uh his track record and his commitment to Durham. And finally, this was something we were supposed to kind of get off the ground in 2020. So it's been five five years. So I'm excited to say yes to this.

Thank you. >> Thank you. I appreciate Council Member Cavier um sharing the background and insights. I want to also add that Cororum was also or the owner of Cororum, I don't know if you're in the room, but I know that they were an active member in the SCAD. um conversation and they were very actively pushing for us to move very quickly and so it's just alarming and I just want to

make sure that I put that on the record. Thank you. >> Thank you colleagues for your commentary. Um I you you answered a lot of good questions.

I think you're good now. Thank you so much. Uh, only in Durham. Only in Durham where you you have a a teacher who tries to spend their time occupying with a hobby and build something in their backyard and it turns into an enterprise where you're able to build housing in your city for other people. Um, and I'm I'm really appreciative of the work that's been done here because nobody else will bite and no bank would fund. So, the city is controlling the whole supply chain and um we're doing it with a dermite uh a local dermite and one thing we can say out of this is at the end of this program there will be more people housed than there are now.

and uh components of the SCAD movement was very beneficial and I'm excited to see this as one of those components being able to house people. 75 million and to make non I'm sorry 1,750,000 and to make nonsustive changes and edits consistent with the city's these contracting requirements prior to execution. >> Moved as read. >> Second.

>> It's been moved and properly seconded. Madam clerk, please open the vote. >> Thank you. Please close the vote. >> The motion passes unanimously.

>> Thank you. All right. It's number eight. Right.

Where is it? Oh, there it is. All right. Item uh our next item is item number eight.

We do have a lot of speakers here. [Applause] 22 24. All right. Uh with that being said, we will um start with our online speakers.

I will all lot two minutes um for speakers this evening. But first we have uh item number eight. Um

All right. This is uh item number eight, which is uh approval of an ordinance revision to chapter 10, article 4, housing code, section 10-241. There has been a lot of commentary around this and we um and colleagues, let me just say I appreciate I appreciate each and every last one of you uh for the work that we've done around this this ordinance. Um we we've had a lot of oneoffs, one-on-one meetings and conversations all trying to uh get to the finish line on this.

U want to thank the community for uh the emails that have come through um for the engagement and those who have shown up in the room tonight as well. I I have not heard a single council member request something different uh and a different outcome. uh it's been more so uh just managing the multiple versions that have come um from the attorney's office, from community members, from council members making adjustments. So I

I do believe there will be some changes to this tonight just based on my individual conversations with you all. Uh and we will try and get to an end. First, considering there is no staff report, I can go ahead and start with uh start with our speakers online and then I'll go to in person. I will call names, five names at a time for in person and then I'll bring it before the council for our deliberations and then we'll move forward.

All right. >> Yeah. All right. Do we have uh Oh, Sam.

Do we have Samuel Scarboro online? >> Mr. Mayor, Mr. Scarboro is not in the queue.

>> All right. Leslie St. Dre. >> Mr.

Mayor. Leslie St. Dre is also not in the queue. >> Okay.

Miss Adams. Stella Adams. >> Yes, she is.

>> No. Miss Adams gonna show up. Miss Adams, can you hear me? Miss Stella see her.

>> Hello, council. Can you hear me? >> Could you get a little closer to the mic? >> Um, can you hear me now?

>> Yep. There you go. Welcome. You have two minutes, Miss Stella.

>> Thank you. Um, Mr. Mayor, um, council members, Mayor Pro Tim, thank you for allowing me to speak. My name is Stella Adams. I'm a citizen of Durham. I am so proud to support um this amendment to our um code um as it was put forward by thoughtful youth of our community um who did the research did the job and

um put forward uh a proposition that really I'm surprised we hadn't already um implemented in Durham since it has been successfully utilized in um Charlotte and several other communities since 2007. Um this will mean so much to a number of our families in Durham who are living in substandard um housing and being charged full rate for um for um substandard caves. I have seen and experienced as a housing advocate. I have witnessed um conditions where there were holes in the floor in the what were the former Bradwell apartments there there wasn't

an even a floor yet people were paying um market rate well they were paying you know out of their pocket without subsidy um to live in those conditions and when they were forced evicted. They um you know had no no way of recovering of of defending the eviction and recovering their um getting abatement because of the poor condition. So >> thank you support this. Thank you.

>> Thank you so much. Next we will um just one more time. Do you see Samuel Scarboro or Leslie St. Dre?

>> No, Mr. Mayor. >> All right, sounds good. We will now move to uh in person speakers and I will call five at a time

Ital Medalis Cynthia Hoskins Regina Maize Brenda Solomon and CR Clark. You can just cue right here in line behind the uh and if I called your name uh just go ahead and come on up. Uh again, Italo, Cynthia Hoskins, Regina Maize, Brenda Solomon, and CR Clark. Thank you.

>> All right. Thank you everybody. Mayor, Mayor Bertam, City Council, Eidalo Medilius, uh general counsel for the North Carolina Tenants Union. Uh so, first of all, I would like to before doing anything, thank the Riverside High School Affordable Housing Club.

I don't know if they're here, but yes, round of applause. without them spearheading this we would not be here today. So that's a beautiful thing. Uh secondly uh I would also like to say that we don't need to go deeply into the law today. We've been doing this for two work sessions. But I also

want to say this is not a symbolic resolution. This is a very very real thing. Uh enforcement. We talk about non- enforcement.

Sure the city's not going to enforce it but the people are through a private right of action. It's very enforceable. you've heard uh from other attorneys in Charlotte here and we can enforce it through the people even though it doesn't come through the municipality. Secondly, deterrence is an operative part of the law.

It's not something to minimize, right? Uh if you go down to my alma moater, North Carolina Central University School of Law, take a criminal law class over there in statutory development, you will see, right? Deterrence is a very very very operative part of the law. And when it comes to amendments, we would prefer as a North Carolina Tenants Union for this ordinance to be adopted as is as introduced by Council Member Chelsea Cook.

Now, we also understand that there are some issues with the Danzy decision. Uh even though it doesn't have any presidential value, it does have some issues when you know people try and attack the ordinance. And

these are very very minor amendments that we put in our original memo uh in response to the original city attorney's memo in section 4C which gives three different ways uh to amend the resolution to add a notice requirement to add a knowledge requirement and to add an opportunity to cure. Those would be not change the resolution the ordinance substantially and we believe that will protect us from legal issue. So thank you very much. Hope it can get adopted.

>> Thank you. [Applause] >> All right. You all almost made me clap as well, but I'm just It's going to take a long time, so if you will just please hold your applause uh to the end. That'll be very helpful to get through tonight.

>> My name is Cynthia Hoskins. Good evening, mayor, city councilman. I'm a resident at Willlet Street and we've had so many complaints, so many maintenance problems, so many

retaliations. Um, I had put notices up to come for the city council. They took my notices down. DHIC took them down, said I was not to put them up.

I've been trying to have meetings for our community in the building, but the people are so scared to come out. They're scared of retaliation and they will retaliate against them. I've seen it already. It's already started.

And a lot of people that that's with me, one lady has been in the emergency room for over five years. These are all her most of some of her papers. I have three envelopes of everything that they have done to me since I've been there. And I moved in July the 1st, 2021, and I'm still having problems there.

It's it's it's it's a nasty building. I don't understand why. Our maintenance does not clean. He does not do recycle.

He does not do light bulbs. He does not do carpet. and he does not clean elevators. So, we have to live in that area ourselves.

If we don't if they don't clean it, we got to clean it. We shouldn't have to clean our own building that we live in. Everybody that's with me is from Bullet Street and everyone has a lot of a lot of lot of problems that we are trying to get fixed. I just want everything to be safe, clean, and people live in a better condition than they were living in.

Now, if y'all come and look at that building, you'll see. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you, and have a good day. >> You too. Next, Miss Mace.

Good afternoon, Mayor, City Council. Um, I want to speak on these landlords. Um, I don't understand why they still getting paid and we're living in crappy places. I have black stuff coming up through my carpet.

Housing authority not doing nothing about it. The city came out. They not doing nothing about it. I have a refrigerator I haven't been able to use in a year.

So now I'm getting ready to get evicted because I didn't pay him. I took his money by rent and had to buy me a freezer. I had to buy me a little refrigerator for my um insul. So I don't understand why I'm getting evicted and they're failing him.

You know, the housing authority not paying him. And like I said, I don't understand it. in some rules and he walked in on me

last week while I was taking a shower when he feel like he had to um leave off because he said that's his property. So, you know, I was like, can you at least wait till I get dressed before you bring somebody in here to do some work? You know, I I I just don't understand what's going on why we are not being more protected as tenants. Thank you.

>> Thank you. I'll ask again if we could just hold our applause so we can get the speakers through. Uh Miss May, um what was was that were you Miss Solomon? >> Okay, thank you.

>> All right, Miss Mace, >> Regina Mace, Durham resident, um mayor, mayor prom, all city council. Good evening. Um, I wanted to come behind Miss Solomon because I've been working with her approximately for the last month. I got a call from another

resident, as we do in this community. We pull together, we call each other when we have nobody else to call. And to find out that Miss Solomon has actually had a fire in her housing due to faulty wiring, but she still had to pay rent. It disturbs me.

Um, and she's one in a million. You know, I thought about this afternoon and as as I was thinking about what I would speak upon and how I wanted to address this matter, I thought about a resident that I heard about maybe around 2019 2020 that actually passed away after reporting multiple um mode and other concerns in her apartment with doctor's documentation. as a maintenance personnel told her, "Just sit on your porch for a while. " And this resident died.

I thought about how rules and laws don't become bills and get passed until that happens. It's sickening and it needs to stop. Again, as I spoke recently on a Thursday meeting, where's the prevention? This is your chance to vote and create that prevention.

Thank you. >> Thank you. Um, next up I have Next up I have CR Clark. And I'm going to go ahead and call the rest of the names.

Um, Milo Greyber, Susanna Carvalo, Peter Gilbert, Durant Long. >> Welcome. State your name and you have two minutes. >> Hi, my name is Milo Greyber. I'm a

senior at Riverside High School as well as the founder and leader of our affordable housing club. Uh I'm going to speak in favor of this ordinance. Affordable housing, as we all know, is a major issue in Durham and affects a lot of people, including a lot of DPS students. Um a lot of students live in unsafe housing, uh unhealthy conditions, and are living in fear of getting evicted due to being charged uh such high levels of rent.

um they can be forced to be evicted and that's very disruptive especially when they are forced to uh move school districts because they have to find housing in a different area. Uh passing this ordinance would do a lot to help a lot of residents including students by encouraging landlords to maintain housing. So that would make housing a lot healthier and less dangerous to residents. Uh it would give tenants more power in negotiations with landlords uh when getting evicted or trying to negotiate having to pay less rent

because they can't afford it that month. It would give them more tools to defend themselves in court when they're being evicted. And we should pass it uh even if we're worried about sometime in the future the state potentially trying to uh preempt it or uh slum lords trying to sue the city for having this ordinance because we shouldn't be afraid to do a good thing. just because we think some point in the future we may lose that power.

We should just do the good thing because we think it's good policy and we believe that it is the right thing to do. Uh further this ordinance already exists in three other cities in North Carolina uh Charlotte uh and Pineville are two of them. Uh that indicates that the city of Durm can pass this and should pass this. I think that also indicates that we should pass it in the form proposed by councelor Cook because that is the form that was is used in those other cities. Thank you,

[Applause] >> Milo. Milo, look around. This is your fault. >> Good job.

>> Good job, buddy. [Applause] And I I took that personal privilege because so often our young people just don't get engaged. We'll do the work and figure it out. But I want you to be encouraged.

You bought the community together to do something powerful and we'll get there. We'll figure it out, but this is your fault. And you and your friends, good job. Good job.

All right, back to no more applauses. She gonna clap for Milo. Um, I had a CR Clark. Was there a CR Clark?

>> Uh, are you CR Clark? No. >> Oh, okay. All right.

Well, come on up. And uh are you Susanna? >> Yes. >> All right.

Come on, Susanna. >> Welcome. You have two minutes. >> Thank you.

>> Uh honorable Mr. Mayor and City Council, my name is Susanna. I am a medical doctor with 14 years of practice in pediatric emergency room and unemployed in Rome. Recently, I became a US citizen from Durham, and I am thankful for finishing my immigration process.

But I still share feelings of grief, hurt, and hope for justice. My feeling of belonging is certainly stronger with the right to vote, but I still need to have my other civil and constitutional rights granted. Tonight I be before my neighbors and my leaders to express my support to tenants rights and

share my own first rental experience in Durham in the United State and in the the United States. Before moving to Durham four years ago, I was promised a re recently renovated second floor unit at the forest and received a firstf floor abandoned unit when I got here after driving 827 miles from Miami from where I came full of hope for a new and safer life. In May 2021, 2301 White Pine Drive was an inhospitable address and the manager was aware of it before I signed the contract. There was mold in the cabinets.

The paint was and the carpet were old, moldy, and dirty. The AC didn't work. There were many spiderw webs and that bugs on the floor. The manager agreed to cancel the contract with no penalty, but has never given back the money to me. And it wasn't just a matter of money,

but also the impact such immorality could cause to my health and caused among my new neighbors. The latest response from Dasmine Residential is that the property was sold and they haven't resolved the problem. I also tried legal representation at legal aid, but I haven't heard back from them. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you. Thank you. >> All right. Uh, no.

So, just make sure Susan. That was Susanna. Okay. Um, Peter, you Peter?

>> Good evening. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, members of the council. My name is Peter Gilbert.

I'm the litigation director of the North Carolina Justice Center. I was formerly the director of the Durham Eviction Diversion Program, which I helped found with this council and city's support in 2017. I went on to then direct the statewide eviction diversion program of for legal aid of North Carolina. So, I'm very familiar with how successful this ordinance has

been where in Charlotte we've used it for more than 15 years and it's been one of the most effective tools that we've had where it has never been challenged and it's been one of the most effective tools that we've had to force landlords to live up to their duty to provide fit and habitable homes. I've been in so many terrible homes that you become dull to it. I've seen so many homes without heat, with leaking roofs, with roaches, with holes in the floor, everything you've heard about tonight. I remember though going to one with a with a law student intern.

She was a lawyer from Palestine. She was getting her LLM at Duke and it was her first time in one of these homes in Durham. We were doing the investigation and she was shocked. She was shocked that people in the wealthiest country in the world were living in conditions like this.

She was astonished. And not only that they were living there, but they were paying exorbitant rents to do so. The problem is that with the lack of affordable housing in Durham, landlords have very little financial incentive to fix anything. tenants are afraid to call the city. They're afraid to make complaints. Even when we represent them, we have to encourage them to file a complaint with

the city to do it. This ordinance is the most powerful tool that we have to help uh ensure that tenants can live somewhere that is safe. It has two other benefits that I want to bring up briefly that I expect will happen as a result of this ordinance. One, as you may know, single family homes are the ones that tend to be the most dilapidated, and they're also the targets of the investment companies like Cberus that buy up, they actually called their company Cberus, that buy up single family homes like this and take them off the market for homeowners in Durham.

Hopefully, this ordinance will make it a little bit less attractive for them to buy up these dilapidated homes, do minimal surface level repairs, and then charge exorbitant rents. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, it's me again, Barbara Lines Wallace.

I'm here about this. I pray I don't go over my time. I'm going to >> I ain't even going to read it, but I emailed your office last year, right

before the DHA board meeting, before they installed a new person for budgeting and all that, and they just loved him because he knew about financing and housing and all of this stuff. But I'm here today to speak. I know Peter Gilbert because he helped with Dante Strabino and myself. We did a whole lot of stop evictions Durham behind DHA and their fraudulent stealing of money.

2 million to solve that problem. But guess what? They're picking and choosing who they're going to help. You have to qualify.

But I know I was in that and I came down here to see you about it because the the manager of that development again called me and told me she was going to throw me out for what? When the bill was paid. Right. Yeah.

And we do live in substandard housing because we're one step from homeless. Yeah. So, oh my two minutes isn't up. But anyway, I was going to read the email I sent you and I got in contact with the person and they hit me back and I went to that meeting.

I saw the director. Her name is Ashanti. I think I got her number and everything. And then

the young lady was at the meeting who tried to lie to tell me that it was just a graduation and it wasn't. " She actually allowed me to speak. Nobody from the mayor's office came to that meeting, but I did and it was recorded. I post everything on my Facebook page.

Miss B speaks Robert Lions on Facebook. Find me. Inform yourself. Get whatever you need from there.

I've been threatened. I've been called all kinds of names. My wife is being threatened. That's posted as well, too.

I'm being called a racist for what? I speak the truth. Okay. But anyway, I'm here to talk about this today.

Once you solve a problem and you come to your mayor or your constituents to solve a problem, it's supposed to be solved. You did that for us. But DHA is telling me and several other residents, you don't qualify. It's because they don't like you or you don't count or you're not family or whatever.

This is fraudulent. I am about to start legal proceedings. I'm sick of this. My son is in the military right now, not getting paid.

I'm going to finish this. He's the sit he's celebrating this this He's fighting for this country right now. He's not getting paid, but he had to pay $5,000 to fix my broken teeth because of DHA.

Can you please fix this for me? I don't owe them anything. They owe me. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you very much. Y'all had a good night. [Applause] All right. I have uh Durant Long, Chris Peroststein, Amanda Wallace, Donna Batista.

Um, Durant, you're next. >> Good evening, y'all. My name is Durant Long. just a concerned citizen and I want to speak before the council and say that you know there's been talk of defiance tonight and in a society and a time where it feels like the judicial system serves one and one and one specific group of upper class people more it's it's refreshing to see some semblance of equity being put forward and maybe giving average citizens a chance to have some sort of justice, some sort of fairness. So, I just want

to say that this is a great first step and thank you all very much. I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> State your name for me.

>> Brianda Barrera, not CR Clark. >> Okay, gotcha. You can adjust that mic. There you go.

>> Thank you. Uh, good evening, mayor and city council members. My name is Brianda Barrera. I am a Durham renter.

I'm a member of the Triangle Tenant Union and I'm a public health professional. I'm here to urge you to vote in favor of the proposed ordinance tonight. This ordinance would be a critical step toward justice, health, and dignity for the people of our beloved city. This ordinance is a shield for the most vulnerable members of our community.

It's for our elderly neighbors living with black mold who are afraid to complain for fear of retaliation from landlords who only view them as an obstacle to profits. It's for our undocumented neighbors enduring severe pest infestations because their landlord counts on their silence. This ordinant gives us a tool to fight back and to

live with the basic dignity that everyone deserves. In my public health career, I've learned two very fundamental things. I've learned first that housing is health care and second that housing and healthcare are human rights. The quality of our housing is one of the single most important social determinants of health.

A person cannot manage their diabetes in a home with no running water. A child cannot overcome asthma in an apartment plagued with black mold. And no one can heal when they're shivering in the cold due to having no heat in the winter. This ordinance directly addresses these health crises by defining what makes a home imminently dangerous to health and safety.

It draws a clear line. It states that when landlords fail to provide these basic protections, they cannot profit from the suffering that they are imposing on their tenants. It empowers tenants to protect their hard-earned money and to hold negligent landlords accountable. Failing to adopt this ordinance perpetuates a cycle of chronic

stress, mental health crisis, and preventable diseases. This ordinance is a proactive and preventative measure to ensure that landlords maintain adequate living conditions. So, my ask for you is clear. Support this ordinance.

Send a message to Durham renters that you agree. No one should be forced to pay for a home that makes them chronically sick or puts them in imminent danger. Thank you. >> Thank you.

[Applause] >> Hello. My name is Amanda Wallace and I'm taking a breath right now because it's so frustrating when you have to come in here and talk to people who think they have more power than the people um to make these decisions. And so this should be a no-brainer, right? It should be a no-brainer.

Slums, they come to this city or they're in this city and they are not taking care of properties and then people should not have to pay to live in those places, right? It should be a no-brainer. Two other cities in North Carolina have passed this ordinance and you've heard that it has worked for people. Again, it

should be a no-brainer. But you say that you don't want to pass this because it's symbolic or it's performative. This whole thing is performative. This whole thing tonight is performative.

When you chose to put on your bow tie, you performing tonight, right? This is a performance. And so my question is when will the people stop believing in them? We are currently in the middle of an election and it is like destined that this is coming up right now because this is about values.

This is about values. Do we value people or do we value profit? I know what you value. And if we keep looking at housing, right, as a commodity and not as a right in our in our city, this is going to continue to be an issue. How many people got to come sit up here and tell you how how bad they are living for you to do something for you to you and you on the campaign trails, Mark Anthony Middleton, you keep talking about Walltown and these places

that um or no, what's what's the uh the apartment complex that they just said? Willard Street. You keep talking about Willis Street like it's the best thing. What you going to say now?

Stop lying. Stop lying. You too, Leo Williams. You're lying.

And I hope that this is one of the last meetings for y'all. Thank you. Welcome, >> city council members. Um, I'm Chris Pearlstein.

Um, I actually do like the bow tie, but you know, I just have no sense of style, so you might want to take that with a grain of salt. Um, I'm supportive of an ordinance of this type. U, tenant safety issues are real. Naturally occurring affordable housing is the most likely to have habitability issues like this with what this ordinance covers. This is a problem with an aging housing stock and a housing

shortage that disproportionately impacts the least privileged of our community. This is why we especially need new affordable housing, whether built by the market, were supported by efforts like the previously passed affordable housing bond, expanding housing choices, or the thing that you just passed today. Maybe that's going to work. The quorum housing um ADUs, that would be great.

Uh a stronger uh tenant protection ordinance is an important complimentary piece of this puzzle to ensure existing tenants and existing housing are more protected. These folks deserve options outside of staying in legally uninhabitable housing caused by negligent landlords. With issues this important and considering the limitations of your legal powers in the state, we have to work together to find a solution that's going to actually protect these folks. Whether it's by city supervised repairs, ensuring habitability, or protections tenants can use in court.

If that's this proposal, then all of you should support it. This shouldn't be a divisive election time issue. This should be about how best to address an issue that impacts our most vulnerable neighbors. They need it. >> Thank you.

Um, >> Donna Batista, but you have Emily, Peter Whitehead, Nico Jordan, I just have Vincent and Nicole. Welcome. Good evening, elected rulers of Durham and fellow Durhamites. My name is Donna Batista and I live at JFK Towers.

I sure wish I had brought the pictures I emailed you guys to at the work sessions because you'd have been impressed or depressed or both. Anyway, I've spoken at the last two sessions. I'm not going to talk about JFK other than to mention the number one issue is there's no electronic connection between a sevenstory apartment building with 175 units. There's no connection with us and the fire department just down the road. It's been that way since I moved there three and a half years ago. I'm the one

that had mushrooms growing behind my seat. A number of us have had raw sewage come up various apartments, various floors, very regular. It's coming up through the kitchen sink, the bathroom sink, and the bathtubs. It's pretty disgusting.

Tonight, I'm not speaking for myself or for JFK. I'm speaking on the behalf of Durham Can. It's an organization I am proud to say I've been involved in through my church for many years. As part of this work with CAN, in the spring, I facilitated listening sessions with Durham Housing Authority residents.

Maintenance problems came up over and over and over again. One person I spoke with said his refrigerator didn't work and he has to go every day to the store to buy ice just so he can have food that he can eat. Can you hear me? Somebody cut me off.

Can you hear me now? All right, that's some more seconds. All right. When it comes to

deeply affordable housing, there's no such thing as having extra money to fix something. You know, some of us already got our food stamps cut. My food stamps were cut $50 starting in October. I found out about it the end of September.

There's no such thing as extra income. Yesterday at Okay, let me just say one final thing. We're listening to you and we really hope you're listening to us. We've got to have some changes here and it's very doable.

Thank you all. >> Thank you. [Applause] >> Welcome. >> Good evening, Mayor, Mayor Prom, and council members. My name is Emily Wilks and I'm the associate pastor for public witness at Trinity Avenue Presbyterian Church and I'm speaking today as a member of the affordable housing research action team with Durham KN. In the spring, Durham can conducted a listening campaign of over 2,000 residents of Durham and affordable housing was the number one issue that

our members raised. Ensuring that the affordable housing that already exists is safe and dignifying is equally as important as building more deeply affordable units for lowincome and working families. In our listening sessions with Durham Housing Authority tenants, we heard stories that any faith community with a rent assistance ministry knows all too well. Homes infested with roaches and bed bugs, rotted floors and ceilings, exposed wire, unsafe structures, and fear.

Fear of speaking up, fear of retaliation, fear of losing the only home that they have. " And that means that the housing conditions our most vulnerable neighbors endure are the conditions we are subjecting Christ himself to. So, to be clear, when our most vulnerable neighbors are living in these conditions, it is not just neglect, it is sacrilege. It's a moral failure. The way that we house the poor is the way that we house

Christ himself. And right now, Christ is living with roaches and bed bugs. Christ is dying, waiting for repairs. And Christ is being crucified and still expected to pay rent.

This ordinance matters to communities of faith. Please pay attention and bear witness to the stories before you tonight so that Durham can be a city where or where even or perhaps especially where the least of these can be protected. Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> Uh mayor, city council members, my name is Peter Whitehead. I'm a a resident of Durham. I'm here to speak in support of the uh of Chelsea Cook's proposal here. I just it makes it just seems common sense. If they do it in Charlotte, you know, uh some of you own restaurants, I'd never pay for a meal that had bugs in it. You'd never pay for someone to you know,

you'd never pay the dry cleaner for one of your suits if they didn't clean it. So, it seems that if someone has housing that has bugs in it, is not livable, there's no reason to pay for that service, and they should be allowed to withhold rent. Thank you. >> Hello, my name is Nico Jordan.

I'm a senior in the affordable housing club at Riverside High School. I'm here to speak in favor of the ordinance. Um, I'm here to, sorry, I'm here to speak in favor of item eight, the tenant protection ordinance. This ordinance should be passed in its current form.

Uh, as it's a simple way that we can help keep Durham families in their homes and would help ensure families and students have, uh, livable housing. Uh, thank you for your time. Have a good day. [Applause] So, it's your fault, too.

>> Good work. My name is Nicole Draplug. I'm a

resident in East Durham. I'm a behavioral health technician and member of the Party for Socialism and Liberation. I'm asking this council to stand with the people of Durham, not slum lords and predatory developers, by voting yes on tonight's ordinance, as it is, as it stands, without any edits. At my apartment complex, my neighbors and I have endured weeks without air conditioning and peak summer heat, flood damage, bug infestations, and broken security pa pads.

When my AC failed this summer, it was over 80 degrees inside my home for weeks. Even after repeated calls and emails, property management dragged their feet. A technician said the system needed replacing, but management closed the ticket with no solution or repair. And still, it really hasn't been fixed.

It kind of just like went on on its own. I think about my immigrant and Spanish speaking neighbors who face the same neglect or worse, but may stay silent out of fear or retaliation. Why should tenants pay rent when landlords fail to provide livable and safe conditions? There's countless horror stories of Durham within Durham housing. Through community outreach, I've met countless Durham residents with mold, pests, broken doors, collapsing

roofs, and are facing eviction. In a state where rent control is illegal, tenants often feel powerless. This ordinance gives people a real pathway to demand safe and dignified housing. The people who keep this running, the people who keep this city running deserve so much better.

This ordinance is the bare minimum, but it's a crucial step towards housing justice. Be bold. Vote yes on this ordinance. But please do not stop there.

Durham is in a housing crisis. Reject predatory developers. Hold the DHA accountable and fund truly affordable housing. [Applause] >> Good evening, Mr.

Mayor. Um Mr. Mayor Pro Tim City Council and I'd like to applaud all of you out there for being here tonight supporting and speaking up because silence is consent when you don't say anything. And this ordinance is very important. My name is Vincent Lawrence and I'm a resident at the

module property of Willlet Street Apartments, one of Durham's worstkept secrets. I have been there since they cut the ribbon from day one. There have been over close to two dozen in management in succession in and out of the door. They have been using skeleton staffing to run the building.

They're trying to run Willlet Street Apartments and Ashton Place Apartments with one apartment community manager taking care of two buildings and one assistant and a maintenance person who is not a master technician who can only do basic work. I have been without heat now for one week. Not due due to their negligence because they found out when the worker came in, they did come in to follow up promptly and I when you do stuff right, I applaud

you. You know, so some things are done right, but a lot of things are done wrong. And it seems like city and state can have shadow governments within themselves because DHI, Durham Housing Improvement, they are you can call them to go surpass your management, not disrespecting management, but you're not getting the results needed. They don't return your calls.

I have I've attempted to speak with the vice president and the RPM and they have not even called. I've left messages and they have not they didn't even call me back today and I am a senior and disabled. >> Thank you so much. >> And I this is not right.

It's not it it's unfair >> and you all need to support this because this will give a voice. >> Thank you >> to us. Next

have Victor Equiza, Mickey Alex Tjo, Barbara Lions, Paola Davila, Barbara Lions. I already got you. Sorry. No, I know you will, but don't don't Miss Lions, you have not changed since I met you back in 2006.

>> Good evening, Victor Orza. >> Um, I'm a current tenant at Juniper Square Apartments in East Durham near the village. So, you already know the conditions there. Um, this is a small and poorly managed apartment complex.

If I had to guess, I would say that 80 to 90% of the residents there are immigrant families, majority Spanish speaking. Many of these neighbors have multiple families living in a one apartment to simply afford rent and skyrocketing cost of living. Landlords take advantage of

these communities because it because of the lack of language access and the fact amenities tenants are new to this country. These apartments offer no amenities, no clubhouse, no gym, no pool, no leasing office on site, and not even a playground for the kids to play on. Yet, we are expected to pay our rent on time every single month or risk eviction. Even when there are consistent power outages, the AC is not working during the summer and maintenance has not come to fix leaks or bug infestations.

Tenants are treated as objects for profit and not as human beings. Tenants are criminalized and surveiled, not protected and defended. Not only are immigrant neighbors facing rising rents, inadequate housing conditions and exploitive landlords, but the threat of ICE terror is ever more present in our communities. But this crisis is not just in Juniper Square or Duke Manor or McDougall.

It's a crisis facing thousands of people in Durham, in our state, and our country. All tenants, all tenants, regardless if they're citizens or not, deserve safe and truly affordable housing. We support this

ordinance because it gives power back to the tenants in a system that consistently puts profit over people. We demand that city council pass this ordinance tonight and not postpone any longer. Housing is a human right. Thank you so much.

[Applause] >> Good evening to my community. My name is Mickey. I am a proud organizer with the Party for Socialism and Liberation here in Durham. I'm here, of course, to support this ordinance tonight and demand its swift passage without edits.

Um, but for real, this is really just the bare minimum. Nobody should be collecting rent for, you know, uninhabitable conditions. And I cannot wait to see these landlords sweat. I don't know about y'all, but again, like this is the bare minimum.

This is the first step. Next, we got to abolish landlords altogether. We we shouldn't be living in a system where, you know, these people up on a council or on a board can make these

decisions for us. We should be making these decisions for ourselves. So, I really want to urge everybody, you know, shout out to the students, to the organizers, to everybody that came out to support this tonight. Make sure that the people's voices were heard.

I want to urge y'all to continue this organizing, continue this good work. Keep it up because Durham needs it. And, you know, we can build the future that we deserve where we actually make these decisions for ourselves and the working class holds the power. Thank you.

[Applause] Hello, my name is Alex Tjo. I'm a child of East Durham and I want to say that this tenant protection ordinance is just a first step, just like Mickey was saying. But it's a necessary one. " That's the kind of protection and power working-class people in Durham have

needed for years. It's not radical. It's common sense. But while this ordinance addresses the conditions we live in, it doesn't yet touch the system that creates those conditions.

Because the truth is, the housing crisis in Durham isn't an accident. It's a product of greed. It's Duke University, the largest landlord in our city, hoarding land and wealth while paying almost nothing in taxes. It's the Durham Housing Authority failing to meet its units, overcharging residents, and pushing families into debt.

It's developers who buy up whole neighborhoods, jack up rents, and call it revitalization. We're told to be grateful for every new development, every promise of quote unquote affordable housing. But we know those promises don't include us. They include profit margins.

So yes, this ordinance matters. It's a start, but we're not here for small fixes to a broken machine. We're here because we need a system that actually works. One built by and for the people who live here, not one that serves landlords,

developers, and universities. We need a Durham where no one has to beg for dignity, where housing is a right, and where power truly rests with the people, not with the representatives who only represent profit. Because this city belongs to us, and together, we're going to make sure it stays that way. Thank you.

[Applause] >> Welcome. Are What's your name? >> Okay, thank you. All right.

After Okay, I have uh Anthony Snail, Jordan Forest Struly, Jackie Wagstaff, Ane Bell, one, two, three, four, and Cynth Cynthia Williams. You may continue. >> Um, my name is Paila. I am a Durham resident and I do urge you to support the tenants um, protection ordinance. It is unethical and irresponsible to allow landlords to collect rent on properties

with dangerous conditions. These conditions impact the health and well-being of tenants, bringing further challenges to our day, which I feel like we already are facing enough. So, in making this decision tonight, which I hope it is tonight, I encourage you to pause and reflect on who you are really serving and the communities you are choosing to abandon and the city you are failing to serve. When landlords neglect families from receiving their basic needs, it is your duty to hold them accountable and protect our community.

During these times, we no longer accept silence. This decision again tonight will tell the people of Durham what your values are and if you are for the people or not. I urge you to prioritize affordable housing and the living conditions of tenants that deserve to live with dignity and respect. This is the responsible, conscious way to protect the health and well-being of taxpayers that allow you and your family

to live in a home with water, heater, no pest infestation or mold, and many more commodities. It is only fair that the Durham residents receive equitable access to the same opportunities that you have every single day. And with all due respect, you should be ashamed of saying that it's his fault or any student's fault. This is the fault of a system that is failing the youth, that is failing our communities.

[Applause] >> Well, that was an interesting spin, but students, I hope you know what I mean. Next. >> Good evening. Um, my name is Jordan Forestley.

I serve as the government affairs director for the Durham Regional Association of Realtors. We represent more than a thousand real estate professionals in our community who are committed to safe, fair, and stable housing. We appreciate and share the

city's commitment to ensuring that every resident has access to a safe and livable home. The city has already established clear protections to ensure that tenants are not subjected to unsafe living conditions. It seems those aren't being enforced at this time and we understand and applaud the efforts that offer tenant protections, but this ordinate as written does not accomplish that. Instead, this will further burden city staff and landlords that strive to be accountable with duplicative language.

Furthermore, this council continues to increase enforcement measures, but has not provided further staffing resources. Other cities have enacted similar language that have not been enforced or tested it and resulting in unsubstantiated use case. Tenant protection in could include adding clearer definitions of dangerous housing conditions, expanding emergency repair tools, or developing education efforts that empower tenants to exercise the rights that they have under state law. Let me be clear. We do support exploring

paths to strengthen tenant protections that provide adequate safeguards and enforcement. Durham's realtors are ready to partner with the city, housing advocates, and community stakeholders to identify solutions that truly protect tenants while maintaining a fair, consistent, and lawful housing framework. Thank you for your time and for your continued attention to housing safety in Durham. >> Thank you.

[Music] I'll ask that we please be respectful, please. M Williams, you want to go ahead? >> Okay, that's fine. Okay. >> Good evening, council members, Mayor Leonardo Williams, and neighbors. I'm Cynthia Williams, chair of the Coalition for Affordable Housing and Transit of Durham, representing over 40 organizations and hundreds of residents who believe housing should be safe,

healthy, and just. We support, we being CAT, support the ordinance introduced by the Riverside High School Affordable Housing Club. These students have done what many adults have tried and failed to do. respond meaningfully to renters's pleas for help, mold, rodents, broken heat.

These aren't minor annoyances. They're threats to health and dignity, and they're happening in Durham today. We understand the city attorney's concerns, but let's be clear, Durham already has housing codes on the books, and they are not working. Renters are living with mold, infestations, and broken heat.

And too often, the enforcement mechanisms in place failed to protect them. This ordinance may not be perfect, but it's a necessary signal that the city will no longer look away when homes become uninhabitable. Council member Chelsea Cook's leadership is courageous. She's not ignoring legal risks. She's refusing to ignore human

ones. Nearly half of Durm households, that is 49% are renters. That's how many people this ordinance could help in a worst case situation. The scale of need is too large to dismiss.

If this passes, please pair the ordinance with tenant education and legal support. But if this ordinance vote fails tonight, we ask that you commit to a real resolution. Do not kick the can down the the road. Doing nothing is neutral isn't neutral.

It's siding with neglect. The coalition stands with the students, the renters, and every Durham resident who believes housing should heal, not harm. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Good evening, mayor, members of the city council. My name is Anthony Snell. I am

the interim CEO of Durham Housing Authority. As you well know, DHA is the owner of roughly 1,900 units of affordable housing in the city of Durham with an additional 1,000 plus units under development. We fervently are we are fervently committed to providing decent, safe, and affordable housing to the residents to our residents and the citizens of Durham. As a federally funded entity, we must follow the federal mandate to collect rent from our residents.

Not doing so violates the law and compromises the viability and security of our properties. We believe there are already adequate city and state measures and safeguards in place to ensure the quality of housing that we provide. These include the city's inspection system, HUD housing quality standards inspections and our housing uh

for our housing choice voucher program and our projectbased rental assistance units. We also have the annual HUD rental assistance assessment center inspections and the North Carolina housing finance agency inspects a large part of our portfolio as well as well. There is also a state rebate uh statute that is well known and commonly used. In additions they are there is a rental abatement regulation under our housing choice voucher program.

As the owner of a portfolio of assets that are older in reaching their useful life, we are uniquely challenged to maintain these assets. Our funding sources are structurally inadequate and diminishing annually. We are committed to maintaining this housing stock and replacing it as quickly as possible. We are in the midst of a very large program

for our public housing. We have secured an additional $10 million to make those corrections. We ask that as you look at >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

[Applause] >> So what we will what what we will not do we will not we will not do that. >> We have to protect the space for everybody to have a voice. You can't acknowledge that. No, we we will not be rude.

We just cannot do that. There's no way in the world that we come together as a community to address an issue for our tenants and only let one side speak. This is your house. This is the people's house.

So, please be respectful. Thank you. Next speaker. >> Thank you.

Uh Jackie Wagstaff, Ajane Bell, >> are you ready? >> And Elizabeth Arant next. >> Uh can I ask one thing? Could you turn the air down?

I think you're trying to freeze us out. Um, I'm here tonight in support of the ordinance as it is written by Councilwoman Cooks, but I'm also here to give you a little history lesson. Back in the 90s when I sat on this dasis, we experienced the same problem. We were I know about Juniper Square.

I think uh Real Estate and Associates and Joe Jernigan and they still run that property. So, we we know about this and we've had these discussions. I wish we had this ordinance on the books when we were fighting for these things to change in these apartments and these rental properties. Um, I remember when these

stories I'm hearing about how these properties, the conditions, I remember calling all out inspections sitting on this dasis and we had every person that we had in our housing department go out and inspect these deplorable units and we found so many violations. I know that the gang of four doesn't have the courage to do that and the gang of three can't do it. But it makes no sense that these residents have to pay market rent to live in your landfill dumps cuz that's what they are. I just believe that tonight that four of you are going to try to play games with this ordinance and I'm going to stand by that.

I think you're going to try to word press it. I think you're going to try to take some stuff out to make sure that the landlords are covered. But I know right now on Ridgeway Avenue, there is a structure has no lights, no waters.

Family are living in them in them and there is a landlord collecting rent from these residents. You need to go check that out. But there's a lot of other things I could discuss. But right now, I just know that there's a gang of four up here that is going to vote either for this the way you want it or against this the way they want it.

>> But you know, there's an election. Go to the polls and vote them out. >> Thank you. >> Good evening, Mr.

Mayor and council members. My name is Anane Bell. As a proud member of North Carolina Central University, I also want to extend my sincere congratulations to the NCCU tennis team on their recent success. I also want to say that I support much of what has been shared by the speakers tonight. Why am I here? Tonight, as one who serves and prioritizes people and

purpose over profit, I'm standing in full support of the tenants rights ordinance that council member Chelsea Cook is leading forward. Durm deserves quality housing and quality landlords. This ordinance helps ensure both. It makes clear that safety, maintenance, and dignity are not optional.

They are the standard. This ordinance is a step forward affirming that renters are not secondclass citizens. It is a step toward ensuring that safe, stable, and dignified housing is treated as a right, not a privilege. It is a step toward aligning our policies with our values.

Because a city that grows without protecting its people is not truly growing at all. This ordinance does not solve everything, but it signals that Durham is ready to do better by its residents. It says that to every tenant who has been ignored, intimidated, or

displaced, we see you. We are moving in your direction. Durham's progress must be measured not by buildings alone, but by belonging, by the security people feel when they turn their key in the door, day or night. Tonight, this council has an opportunity to stand on the side of respect, fairness, and responsibility to say that in Durham, housing will meet the quality our people deserve.

This city must also commit to the resources, infrastructure, and enforcement needed to fully support ando and uphold this ordinance. I urge you to vote yes. This is how we build a better derm for everyone. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you, Mayor. high your needs. I'm not going to be I'm just want to say this. I'm not going to be negative at all.

>> Okay, >> Miss Lion. Miss Lions. >> Physical psychological needs. >> Miss Lions. Miss Lions. >> Freezing food security

and social social love and belonging. Friendship family intim. Okay, we're in recess until 9:10. Recess until 9:10. We'll be back.

I came to the city to develop leadership and supervisory skills. I stayed because of the city's culture and dedication to serving residents. The city of Durham, where careers meet community. gov/careers.

[Music] Every year, 7 million 911 calls are made in North Carolina. >> 911, what's your emergency? >> Will you answer the call? Every second counts.

You can be that lifeline. People in crisis look to us for assistance. We provide guidance and support until physical help can arrive at the scene. Join us and make a difference in our community.

Be the calm in the chaos. Be the voice in the dark. It's the hardest career you'll ever love. Will you answer the call? gov/911 careers.

[Music] Hey, [Music] hey, [Music] hey. [Music] Hey, [Music] hey, hey, hey. [Music]

Falling behind on your bills. Even if you owe more than you can handle, you still have rights. Most legit debt collectors follow the rules, but bad debt collectors don't. They break the law.

So, if you get a call like this, >> if you don't pay, we will have you arrested and deported >> or this, >> this is your final warning. Pay up now or we'll contact your employer and make them pay. >> Hang up and report it to the Federal Trade Commission. You have the right to be treated fairly no matter what.

That means debt collectors can't use abusive language, threaten violence, or harass you, or call you before 8:00 in the morning or after 9 at night. They can't lie or pretend to be someone they're not. >> I'm an attorney and we'll take legal action if you don't pay this debt right away >> or get you to pay a debt that doesn't even exist. They can't have you arrested or deported or tell anyone about your debt. Bad debt collectors like to knock you off your guard to get an advantage, create a sense of urgency, and rush you.

They'll say anything to get you to pay right now. gov/complaint. GV/complaint. We've stopped a lot of bad debt collectors.

Help us stop more. gov/debt. [Music] forch. [Music] [Music]

Fore! [Music] Foreign! Foreign! Fore! chch! [Music] for [Music] [Music]

[Music]

I hope you feel it. I mean, most people have only a That's what I'm saying.

If everyone could please take their seats. Let's get the doors closed. I'll give us a few more minutes, a few more seconds to just get everyone inside.

Thank you all so much. we will uh continue and uh this is a this this this topic that we're discussing tonight is you know what what folks are living in on a daily basis some people and and I have a lot of grace for that passion. So um I did need to recess us which we were about to do in about five minutes after that anyway. Um so I just recess us a little earlier.

Um, and I hope that no one out there is judging any resident by their passion. Um, but having grace for what some people have to go through. Um, and um, I I've I've known Miss Lions for years and uh, I'm glad we were able to have a conversation, but please have grace. Um, and also if we can please just be respectful to to every voice in the room on this.

This this is I I I don't want us to be a a a city or a council that is represented by just damning each other, but more so uh taking the hard road to, you know, trying to make sure we get the best outcome for the least of thee. That's what it should be all about. So, I would ask you that you you I mean, you're here. You're in the room.

That means you give a dank. So, let's just have grace and have respect for one another. Uh and you know, I'm I'm not the type of mayor that's going to go back and forth with you. I'm not going to argue with you.

I'm not going to do all those things. Um I'm I'm just going to humbly ask that we be mutually respectful. And if I need to stop the meeting until things get in a better situation, then I will. All right, get back to it. Before um Well, you know what, Mr. Rott, you've been waiting, so I'm going to call you

up and then I'll call the uh final speakers. Welcome. You have two minutes. Yes.

>> Okay. Uh good evening everybody. Um hope you all had a good break. I appreciate the call for respect in this room.

Um, and I understand that respect is highly valued by the council. But I also want to acknowledge that respect is care and a lot of the folks who are speaking out tonight have not received respect through the care and the support that they have been given and the basic infrastructure. And so I think respect is does have to be mutual. And uh I do I support this amendment because it is a way to show respect and care for all of our neighbors and all of our community.

Um, I honestly have had a hard time thinking of what to say tonight because this uh amendment just seems uh to, as Miss Wallace said, like a no-brainer. It's hard to conceive of why you would oppose this amendment. Um I I understand that there is some existing infrastructure to pursue your rights as a tenant, but generally it's hard to

enforce your own rights when you're living in such a vulnerable condition um where your health and safety are on the line every day. And it can be very time consuming and expensive to pursue your rights in that way. And one thing that uh makes an immediate impact is money. And if landlords aren't receiving rent for the goods or services that they are not providing, then they are going to take action to make amends on that.

Um, which is why I feel confident about this amendment and the impact it will have. And I just want to I just want to say that I think this benefits everyone in Durham and the positive effects are going to be widespread because this affects health outcomes. This affects homelessness. Uh, this affects the health of our of our neighborhoods both physically and emotionally and socially. Um, I know folks who are experiencing houselessness who their only option for housing at this point is actually a step down because if they were to move into some of these buildings, they would be living in unsafe, dangerous conditions and also paying money to live that way.

And so, it's actually a more logical choice to remain unhoused. So, these are unforgivable conditions for our city and our community. Um, so I hope you'll consider this amendment and support it. >> Thank you.

[Applause] Leslie St. Dre, can you hear me? >> Leslie St. Dre, can you hear me?

>> Yes, I can hear you. >> Hi. >> Hey, welcome. You have three uh two minutes.

Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. Uh I'm I'm here also in support of this amendment.

I think as everyone has said it is basic. Um these folks that are suffering the most should not be paying for squalor. Um I don't really even know why this is a debate. These are these are things that should have been done long ago. And I think this council has prioritized

developers, landlords, and market rate housing and continuously says there's nothing we can do because of statewide preeemption, yet never tries to do anything. And this ordinance shows that there is there are things that we can do uh to protect tenants. And it's it's time that that tenants and residents in general Durham are the priority, not landlords, not developers. Uh so I stand with the tenants always.

Uh in general, all the rent they're paying in is an investment in their home. They're not seeing any returns. In effect, it is theft by the landlords, taking all of their hard-earned labor for profits. So the least that this council could do is to protect them and then next it should be to organize to overturn those state laws that prevent

us from having major protections like real rent control. So um yeah I stand with the tenants stand against developers taking our entire city stand against the unified development ordinance. We need affordable housing first. We need livable units first.

We need representatives who rep represent the people first. Thank you. >> Thank you. [Applause] >> And the last two speakers I have is Amy and Nemal Rhett.

Madame clerk. Okay. Um, madam clerk. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor. >> Could you approach the dis, please?

>> Welcome. You have two minutes. Um, hi. My name is Amy and I'm speaking in strong support of the ordinance that would allow residents to withhold their rent when they're forced to live in unsafe or unhabitable conditions.

I want to share my experience here in Durham. I moved to Woodlake Reserve, a private apartment complex last year, and I thought that I was finally going to get a fresh start after graduating from UNCC. It was advertised as a moving ready unit and the moment that I walked in, I was hit with the smell of cigarette, smoked so strong that it burned just like my eyes. The place was filthy.

Um, I have an I have an asthma condition and within days I was struggling to breathe. Um, I had to take time off work just to go in person and beg them basically to do something. when they finally like addressed the issue, um I found that they addressed the issue

wrong. So I had to take basically clean the whole apartment myself because I could not a like afford a hotel or move again. And that exposure caused my first asthma attack in years. Um so I documented everything in a Google review for all of us to see.

Um, but I know I'm not the only one and some people here shared their experiences that are far worse than mine. People have died because of unsafe living conditions. And I just want to ask that just like please pass this ordinance. And when we're talking about respect, I some corporations and CEOs here get some more time, but yet that time is not a loted to us when we're speaking from our truth from our experiences. This is life and death situations for a lot of people, workingclass people that cannot afford just to move somewhere else. So,

please just pass this ordinance. Common sense. [Applause] >> One moment. >> Okay.

Welcome. >> Hi. Um, I'm Nia. Um, thanks for taking the time to listen to me.

Um, I just find it interesting how this entire evening you asked us not to applaud to asking us to have decorum in order, but when it comes to these landlords, you aren't demanding it of them. I support this amendment because people shouldn't have to subject themselves to having to clean up a place that they pay for when it is the job of the landlord to take care of it. Um, so I hope that you consider

going forward with this amendment and yeah [Applause] I'm just waiting for it to start at two. >> Yeah. >> Welcome. >> Okay.

Hi, my name is Maya and I'm a resident of Durham. For two years, I've had the misfortune of living in the Duke Manor apartment complex. I would like to talk about my experience as a tenant in Duke Manor, which will explain why I am in favor of this ordinance. Since March 2025, there have been six water outages in my apartment.

After the first outage in March, the water from my kitchen and bathroom faucets were brown. The property management told me that brown water is normal after an outage due to pipe repairs. And they suggested that I run the water faucets for 10

minutes to clear out the sediments in the pipes. I did just that, but the water continued to remain brown for months. I sent at least six to seven maintenance requests to test the water quality in my apartment. The first three times, maintenance workers unclogged my shower drain, which is not what I asked for.

The fourth time, a worker took a water sample in a plastic bottle, told me they would test it, but never got back to me. Five months later, Duke Manor drained sediment for my water heater, and six months later, they finally bought a water testing kit, but it was one of those $10 ones from Home Depot. It has been six months and I have yet to receive a comprehensive solution to a basic problem. I still paid rent on time for all of those six months and I exhausted so many options. I made calls, I wrote emails, I visited the office and I left negative online reviews and each

time I was dismissed. For this reason, I support adding ordinance F to section 10241 tonight. Instead of fighting an uphill battle in a legal court against my landlord, I should be able to get Durham Code enforcement, a third neutral party to determine if my water is portable. I cannot afford legal action.

I need this ordinance to be passed so I can have clean water in my apartment. Thank you. [Applause] There were a few uh these last few speakers uh were overlooked, so I'm just making sure we get everyone in. >> Uh good evening, Mayor Leo and honored representatives.

I'm Yan Hasbrook. I'm a 43-year resident of Durham and chair of the Durham Regional Association of Realtors Government Affairs Committee. And I'm speaking uh about our municipality in the context

of a a national administration that's cutting government wherever it can. We currently have uh 50% more of our population in renters than nationally. So for protecting property rights, it's essential that those tenants be treated not only with respect but with dignity. And so we have laws on the books right now that uh make it criminal a criminal act to provide unsafe and uninhabitable living conditions.

Uh what this ordinance does is it removes the criminal implications for landlords who are uh who are victimizing their tenants that way. Uh I'm concerned about this ordinance's uh inability to have been tracked in the court system. Although although Pittsboro and Charlotte have u got it on

their books, it hasn't been tested. And I guess the biggest reason I have for opposing this amendment the way it's written is that our own city attorney says don't pass it. Thank you. >> Thank you.

Uh last speaker is Brian Baker. >> Yeah. Brian Brian Baker. Welcome.

>> All right. Thank you so much. Wow. I'm at the end.

Good evening, mayor, city council. My name is Brian Baker. I'm here on behalf of the Triangle Apartment Association. Our membership has worked with you guys in the past.

We've presented with you in the past. Uh we consist of 173 apartment communities here in Durham and that's over 40,000 residential homes. Um today there are actually is some of our members here in uh in the audience today who are uh part of our membership. Uh to the two minutes is not enough to get done what I need to say.

We actually have a letter and we're going to present that to you guys to go through. What we're big ass is today is we want to be able to participate in the conversation. We feel like we haven't

been able to participate. You know, the high school kids, one of the big things that happens when you have policy debates is you have to be able to look through it through different lenses and you have to understand the different perspectives and that's important. So, thanks for bringing the conversation forward. I would also say an important thing of having a policy debate is brains.

So, don't be a no-brainer. There is a brain situation has to come in. So, in the letter that comes in, we have some issues that we like to uh present. Real quick, I'm going to run through these, but they are documented out in this letter.

First of all, these current protections already exists. Residents can report these concerns to code enforcement, which has the powers, including fines. There's also state laws that currently exist. Secondly, these ordinances risk confusion.

North Carolina law requires a court determination before rent can be withheld. It has been said many times already today. This gives them the opportunity to hold rent. There is so much confusion. We need to have this

conversation go throughout. Also, lastly, there's a due process piece that is missing that needs to go through. I think that we are at the beginning stages of it was said earlier tonight that we want to make sure this feels ready to go on a different policy procedure. We want to ultimately get it done right.

And so what I would encourage everyone is that we have those conversations. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> I'm asking to participate.

>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's our last speaker. And at this time I will at this time I'll refer uh bring this back before the council and uh thank everyone for your uh for your remarks I will say as we are as we're getting into this uh I I do want to appreciate everyone's

remarks and and I I appreciate folks just showing up and being a part of this conversation. Uh what you're about to experience now is the council is going to share their deliberation. They're uh we're going to deliberate. We're going to talk about it and then we'll um I'll entertain a motion for us to move forward uh with this.

Um the council hasn't taken a position on it yet. So, I know there are some remarks saying that, you know, we are that folks, I I truly believe, especially since I've had conversations with the council, uh we're all on the same page and trying to make sure that our tenants are um those of us especially who rent um are are um getting the best outcome here. So, uh Council Member Cook, you uh facilitated bringing this before, so I'm going to always start to my left mostly, but I'll start with you. >> Thank you.

I'd actually like to speak last if that's okay. >> Okay. Council member Baker, >> it is our job up here to protect first

and foremost to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the people of Durham. And what better way to do that than to address the largest household expense on average for everyone who lives in this city and everyone who lives in this country, which is housing. uh we know uh the statistics about the number and percentage of people who are housing cost burden. It is large and it is growing.

I mean it has been growing for many years and some people call this a housing crisis. It has become a housing crisis even for middle class people. It has always been a housing crisis for uh lowincome people. uh in our method that we have the the the tools that we have at our disposal, we have policym, we have the police powers that are delegated to us uh by the state of North Carolina. And there are rare opportunities that come before us because of creative

thinking, because of the conditions that people live in and organizing and people coming forward and putting things on the table. Rarely do these opportunities come to us. Uh rarely do we have opportunities to think bigger and on a larger scale across our entire city and not just in a peacemail or uh smaller scale way. We know exactly how to make housing a human right.

Society knows exactly how to do it. We build a massive amount of social or public housing that's beautiful, that's affordable, and that everyone can live in. We know that we can do that. We know that rent control is one of the most powerful ways to make sure that people can afford the place that they live and not get evicted. We know that there are tools out there that exist and we know that we don't have those things because our state first and foremost because our state and our federal

government don't want us to have those things because they want to limit the amount of resources that we have available to us to be able to build great, beautiful public affordable housing for everyone. They want to make sure the state for example wants to make sure we don't have the tools thanks to industrial lobbying to enact uh minimum wage laws uh price controls, minimum wage laws and uh rent control. They know that these are effective tools for keeping people in their homes and we don't have that power because it was specifically prohibited uh from us. So it is rare opportunities that thanks to creativity and organizing that we do have something before us using the police powers that can actually affect our entire city and everyone who lives here when it comes to the greatest household expense that everyone that the average household has. We also know that

this is a winning issue. Poll after poll shows that workingclass people want great affordable housing, want price controls on housing, want protections uh against uh landlords who want uh to uh uh uh pro provide poor quality provide poor quality housing and retaliate against residents who want to organize. And even in states and places that have those limitations, we see increasingly incredible organizing. Kansas City tenant union, LA tenant union, tenant unions growing across the country and now here growing here in in the triangle triangle tenant union and so many others who are saying no, no, no, we're going to organize our building.

We're going to organize our neighborhood and we're going to push back. So that is happening. One day we will overturn these laws. One day we will organize and make sure that

everyone can have great social housing that the state of North Carolina no longer has these rent control prohibitions. One day we will reach that. And until then we have moments like this. Moments where we find a hole and a gap that we can fill.

So, I'm excited about this common sense, as has been stated, common sense uh or uh ordinance that adds a modest tool, a modest tool in a tool bag because we need every tool that we can possibly grasp for on the table. Uh and this is one of those tools that is added to the tool bag. Uh people shouldn't have to pay landlords when the quality of their housing is inadequate, is unsafe, is unhealthy. Um this will not apply to the majority of housing in in our city. That's an important thing. Um I don't think most landlords should be

worried about this. Uh those landlords that are worried about this should make themselves known. I would like to know to know who they are. Um this ordinance doesn't regulate rent.

It doesn't it addresses uh rent but it doesn't it doesn't regulate rent. It it simply helps to ensure that people are living uh in safe and healthy housing conditions. And lastly I just want to say thank you to everyone who has um come out in support of this but also to those who were here at the ground floor and who really helped push for this. Um, and um, I also want to say thank you to my uh, colleague Chelsea Cook.

Uh, the community did a lot of work uh, brought this to light, brought this to attention. Um, and Council Member Cook put the deal on the table and has championed it and has championed it very well. So, I want to say thank you to Council Member Cook um, for for the work that she has done in really pushing this forward. Um, and lastly, I

I do I do support this language and look forward to voting for it this evening. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

Um, so I have a couple of questions for the city. Well, actually, first for Council Member Cook. And in the ordinance as presented, there's the second page, which is the the list of items. And then in the attorney's memo, we talked about this a little bit at the work session.

Is there a reason why we wouldn't want to do the list as stated in the attorney's memo? >> Just pulling them both up. >> Huh? I just have to pull them both up. >> Okay.

I have to move. Can I get you to move your mic closer to you? Great. Thank you.

Apparently, I'm needing a lot of assistance, so that's good. Okay. um they are not exactly identical and I do remember that there were a couple issues um with the ones that with some of the ones that were missing from the attorney's version. Um and let me just remind myself here and if anybody has the answer to this readily available feel free to assist. Yeah, if if the city attorney could my understanding was because they brought the list that was in the original memo to our actual code enforcement officials and the list that was provided was based on their expertise as to what they actually see out in the field as code enforcement. That was what I remember from the work session, but I was just wanting to make sure that that is true.

>> If I could respond. Yes, that is um the attorney's office worked with staff to develop um the uh the list based on the code enforcement that they um typically identify. >> Thank you. So, I have one friendly amendment to the ordinance as stands.

Uh I would like to swap out the list from the original memo, the original ordinance with the list that the city attorney's office provided. My belief is that that's based on more Durham context and so I think I think would be helpful. Additionally, I do want to figure out the issue around what the Durham Housing Authority um mentioned and so there is some um potential additional language which is uh in section 10-241 unless otherwise preempted by state or federal law. That is another thing I would like to add to the ordinance that is in front of us.

And that's all I have for right now. I'll continue. >> Mr. Ton, are you catching are you capturing this? >> And I I want to continue um hearing from

colleagues. I think that um and I understand folks frustrations with DHA um that that is real and legitimate. We have had to quite frankly bail them out uh with public money several times. Um but they are still a landlord that is incredibly important and uh we are uh in a very active partnership with them.

Um in many communities as their housing authorities have not been getting the necessary funds from the federal government as the federal government has abandoned um the federal housing program. A lot of those units just go offline, right? As code enforcement comes in. It's determined that they can't be, you know, fixed.

The maintenance is too big. The money is not there. And so those units just go offline. What does that mean?

It just means that they don't exist in the community. It's not like they're replaced. And we're actively trying to do something different in Durham. It's one of the reasons that you're seeing so many uh housing authority properties

turning over. It's one of the reasons that so much of that was included in the affordable housing bond in 2019. Uh we're in the middle of that. Obviously, we're not done, but there are thousands of new very nice units coming online in the next several years.

And so, uh it's hard to be in that position with our housing authority. Um the the maintenance that is due in some of the older uh buildings, we certainly don't have the local funds and those funds are not coming from the federal government. Uh so, I do want to think through um carefully how we negotiate that with them, but I want to hear what other colleagues have to say. Thank you.

Thank you, Council Member Freeman. >> Thank you. I just had a a question. I wanted to follow up with the Durham Housing Authority Representative. >> And I'll first say I I do think that it's probably going to do some damage to the actual ordinance to add or change

that list. And so I do think it's important that it stays the same way that it was presented so that you keep in line with Pittsburgh and Charlotte. But I just wanted to to just follow up with uh with your commentary when you do inspections for rental units that are under se not it's separate with the vouchers. If the landlord has mold or leakage, what happens?

For those units that not pass inspection, they go into abatement. >> And what does that mean? >> That means that they don't receive their federal subsidy. >> And that federal subsidy is rent.

>> Yes. >> On the part of DHA. >> Yes. >> What happens to the resident?

>> The the resident will stay in their unit. So we were talking about the housing choice voucher program. And so there's an opportunity for that unit for to uh for the improvements to take to that unit, but as long if the landlord

does not make those improvements, they will not receive their rent from DHA. >> Okay. And so if that improvement takes three to six months, what happens? And then be because we we do we are not part of the lease that is an agreement between the the landlord and the resident then the resident has the right at that point to take whatever legal action is available to them regarding the conditions of their unit.

>> Thank you. I appreciate that. >> Thank you. I I would just say that I think similar to our earlier conversation about quorum, you know, um ADUs, if you just viewed it as an opportunity to do a pilot and just see for a year, we could revisit the ordinance as it is written without any problem. I I think it's it's fair just based on the way that it's been

presented from the students and the community. And council member Cook, I really want to appreciate I watched about four and a half of the six and a half hours of your meeting um that I missed and I do believe that there were really good comments made and lots of questions about why or how to change the way that it was written. And what I'm most concerned about in any of those changes is that the city taxpayer becomes on the hook for doing the repairs. And so I don't want us to move into the area where we're trying to abate the abatement.

So we're not trying to fix it for the landlord. We're trying to make sure that the tenant has the best tools and options to make sure that their court case can move forward and and everything that I heard from the the meeting and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but but I do think that this would be the way that it is written, the ordinance that was presented would be the best way to move forward. So, I'll leave it at that for now. I'm definitely listening. I I do want to say that I

think council member um Mayor Prom Middleton's comment about if these types of um tools were available when he was a youngster and the projects that might have been different, you know, not having roaches crawling on you and all that good stuff that happens um when you have that uh infestation. But I I do want to say that it is it is in it's incredibly difficult to listen to folks be chastised about respect on on it knowing that they are living as a as a former healthy housing trainer. Train the trainer like all of those things going into some of these houses in this city has been incredibly hard to see how children in our community have to live. um the holes in the floor, the holes in the ceiling, the leaks, the broken toilet, like all of the things that happen. And if we have an opportunity to make sure we shift the balance of power in the direction so that the tenant has a little bit more um of an opportunity

to to to be abated or to to be like essentially in a safe home. I think that that's something we should we should definitely try to do and that like I said it could just be a pilot. We can look at it. It's an ordinance that can be changed in the future.

I think that you know given a year or two years um council will be different but it just gives us a chance to see whether or not this would work and that would be my my hope for this council. Thank you. >> Thank you. [Applause] I I want to make sure I inject I want to protect the integrity of our debate here.

Not even debate uh our conversation and there is no one in this room being chastised about respect. We're saying mutually respect one another and I I want to keep that in context. I I it's dangerous to take it out of context. >> I I appreciate that. I think the tone may have just been off, but I I

appreciate what you're saying. >> Pardon my tone, but I want to make sure we're mutually respectful. like we are right now. So, thank you council.

>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh, first of all, thanks to all the folks who came out tonight for your passion, for the intensity of the time you spent for this meeting. Um, I think what you're hearing here in the council is that everyone on this council supports greater support for tenants in Durham.

Everyone in this council supports increasing support for tenants in Durham. We know I know the data shows that half of our renters in Durham are housing cost burden. That's real. This is a big issue.

I also want to just point and one of the speakers said we're not doing anything for affordable housing for renters. I think you just heard me talk at the beginning of this meeting on this agenda alone. 160 units in the page road apartments all affordable at 60% AMI. No city subsidy, right? another two million the city is putting

into the Durham affordable housing loan fund to acquire rental properties that are coming out of tax credit status so we can bridge those over to affordable housing providers the quorum the ADUs there's a lot of things we're doing for affordable housing this council cares I want to thank Milo for the research good to see you Milo great stuff um we've had a lot of discussion here and at the work session about this issue a lot of good discussion which I really appreciate Um, I get and I appreciate the folks from the the Triangle Apartments Association who've described that there are there are means on the books for folks, but it does require court determination and I get that that for people who don't have the resources and time to go get to a court or a board to get that determination. That's a big factor, right? That's a big hurdle. So, I appreciate that.

Um, I have one question actually if Italo could approach the mic from the tenants union. I do want to understand because I think you referenced like three amendments that I don't see in my packet. So I I want to make sure I understand the three

amendments you referenced. >> Thank you. Uh council member wrist. So the three amendments did you have the uh the original memo in response to the city attorney's memo on you?

>> Yeah I think yeah >> that should be the last section section 4 C and it talks uh about the Danzy court decision that we talked about in our first work session. Um, and those are just minor drafting changes that would uh bring in uh an addition of a notice period which wouldn't substantially change the ordinance at all. Uh, it would bring in a knowledge standard both uh actual and constructive. Um, and then it would also uh and and those two in speaking with council members.

Uh, you know, that's for you all to debate, but it seems that it's already in the municipal code. Um so that might be for somebody somebody else to talk through. Um and then the third one would be an opportunity to cure. Uh so giving landlords the opportunity to cure the defect. Uh and we believe that 48 hours is a reasonable

time and that actually helps us because what we want is for these defects to be cured. So if we're telling them you have 48 hours and they're going to cure them, great. We want that. >> Thank you.

Appreciate that. So, so is that is council member Cook is that part of the is that part of what we now have before us or is that something that would need to be added? I want to make sure where that where those amendments stand. >> Uh those amendments have not been added.

That's that was the attorney's saying suggestions. I would I would suggest that because it is in the code, there is already necessitated notice and knowledge because this is a city code ordinance and the way that we do our city code is that we have city code inspectors uh who do the inspection and give provide notice to the land owners. Um, I spoke earlier um with the attorney and am in am willing to entertain a notice period, but a short one that reflects the imminently dangerous conditions language that's in the state statute. And so I think 48

hours would be appropriate. >> Yes. >> Is this what we spoke about? >> Yes.

>> Yeah. So do so some due diligence but before we got here tonight I know I spoken about some amendments. >> So are you gonna propose that or okay that's great. Thanks for answering that.

And then I you know you all I do serve as a leazison to the Durham Housing Authority and I appreciate Mr. Snail being here. I do support what council cook said about the clause that would say unless unless sorry about that. Unless otherwise preempted by state or federal law adding that clause before the language.

So I would support that amendment. Um yeah, the Durham Housing Authority, y'all, this is this is our housing authority. They they serve I think the number is like 10,000 people every day that otherwise would have no access to housing. So the Durham Housing Authority it's they're building a better housing

authority. We're working with them. It's a complicated difficult environment because federal funding has been cut but there are 10,000 people every day that live in public housing and it's it's our people and as Copavier said a lot of cities just say look it's a federal responsibility. We're not into it and those units essentially get decommissioned right.

that we're trying our best to maintain units for folks and get that some of that housing is aging housing. I want to work with housing authority. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.

Mayor. >> Don't don't go far and when I share my remarks, I'm going to ask you to come back up anyway. So, just but it'll be it'll be last time. >> Thank you, Mr.

Mayor. Uh thank you, colleagues. Firstly, I want to celebrate the uh tradition of student activism uh for bringing things to bear. You stand in the tradition of royal ice cream protesters and Wolver protesters and the young people that were attacked by dogs

and fire hoses. It was high school students that brought one of the cases that led to Brown v. Board of Education. So, you are in good company tonight.

Uh and you've done a marvelous thing. I also want to just uh say how excited Charlotte must be tonight that finally Durham is copying them uh rather than rather than Charlotte uh copying us. They take our staff, they take our ideas up in Charlotte. So, I'm sure they're having a good night seeing how we are seeking to model uh them.

Uh I'll very simply, colleagues, repeat what I actually said at the work session last time. Uh firstly, I I thanked Council Member Cook for her her passion uh and leadership in this. I did indeed say that I wish I had people with this passion when I was growing up uh in public housing. Um what I actually said was that I support uh this ordinance.

That's what I actually said and our our meetings are archived. You can go back and watch. Um I also had some questions

which were asked and answered. Um I know that there are some some challenges. I expressed also that I don't think we should overstate what success has looked like with respect to this ordinance. But there is something important.

And I think that the very spectre uh that there may be uh some governmental action actual use the spectre of police power if not actually using police power but the spectre of it if it can put tenants uh in a better position uh to leverage it to get some positive outcomes then why wouldn't I support it? I do also want to say um that in fairness to our our friends and colleagues around the state common sense is one thing when it's stated but when we try and govern it and legislate it there are some devil in the details. This is so common sense that out of 500 municipalities only two of them have it because this is an area that takes courage. This is an

area that a lot of our colleagues around the state uh don't want to take on the fight. They don't want to take on the challenges. So, Durham should just pause for a moment. I know this is a rigorous debate and back and forth, but it's okay to just bask for a few moments.

And the fact that we are stepping out on something that seems common sensical, but there's so few people that have done it if it's so common sensical. And that's because sometimes legislating common sense takes courage. It takes it takes values. Um it takes stepping out of a of a comfort zone which is what uh we are doing.

So I again I celebrate everyone that has come out here uh tonight. Um we have to tell the truth. Um this has not been enforced. We will have some questions and we will run into some issues.

You need to hear that. We owe that to you as fiduciaries of the city, as the folk who you put in this position, not to just make speeches or throw out catchphrases, but to actually govern. You pay us. You you you tell us

to stay up at night to think about the things that you don't think about so you can raise your families and pay your bills and live your life. You have delegated that to us. And we owe it to you to ask these questions. We owe it to you to poke in pride.

We owe it to you to see where there's weakness and where there's strength. That that's our job. Um, and that's the cost of being up on this day is with all the other stuff that comes with it. So, I think we've done that and I think we've done that at the last work session.

But if this can help in even a small way put tenants in a position uh to leverage, if the spectre of government action is raised uh and it can help tenants, then I support it. That's what I said then. That's what I stand by tonight. Thank you.

Council [Applause] member Cook. >> Um, just want to address a few things. First, um, I've been back through the list and I had already done this, but my notes are in 7,000 places. Um, I don't

see any need to substitute the list. We are missing in the city attorney's list several things that were provided in the original ordinance. Um that includes the num number one, the 234 H1 which is structures, the entirety of number four which is unsafe ceiling or roofs. Um and then uh most of number 11 which is the unsafe door locks.

And again um we've written and I want to say really clearly I did not write this. This has been something that I have been talking about. Um, if you go back to my, well, don't do this because it was like the worst I've ever spoken in public. But if you did go back to my interview when I was uh got the appointment for this position, I talked about adding teeth to back to NIS.

Um, our city code inspectors uh used to have the ability to um to uh to enforce their inspections. We did used to have a criminalized component to that. Um, that code was stripped from or the

criminalization component was stripped by the state. Um, and I had talked in my initial interview about bringing more teeth to it, but I want to be really clear, even though this is conversation I've been having for a really long time, the draft of this ordinance came from the Riverside High School Affordable Housing Group, and they deserve all of the credit in the world, particularly Milo Graber, who's here tonight, who spoke earlier. Um, incredible work. So, I guess it's confusing to me why we continue to uh kind of like try and poke holes in it.

Um, the reason for this list, and though it is specific, of course, to the Durham Municipal Code, um, it more or less reflects the code that exists in Charlotte and has exists and been used for over a decade. Um, and was in fact recodified relatively recently. uh this is the safest way to do it is the code as written in front of us tonight. Um and so for those reasons um I'm not willing to switch out the um

list and um I spoke earlier on the time to cure. I think that if that is something that will bring folks to the table and um I asked specifically I think the mayor and I talked about this earlier if he would vote for it if it had a 48 hour um curing uh then I am willing to include it to get more support behind it. Um but I want to speak to the other amendments that have been suggested particularly the one regarding the housing authority. Um I have a few things to say about that.

The first is that we had the um interim executive director up here talking about what happens when a voucher house falls into abatement. And I want to be really really clear about what happens. There is a triangle relationship when the housing authority has a voucher, the housing authority has a relationship with the landlord, the housing authority has a relationship with the tenant, and

the landlord and the tenant have a relationship. So you've got the three parts of this triangle. And so when a unit is in abatement, as in they fail any part of the housing authorities's inspection, the housing authority stops paying that rent. And what it means is that a tenant has to figure out what to do.

And if you know anything about Durham and uh our real world experiences here, it's extremely hard to move with a voucher. Extremely hard. And so you also have a federally mandated timeline to move your voucher. And so if you have a unit that is failing inspection and DHA stops paying and your landlord wants you gone instead of fixing the issue, then you have a certain amount of time to transfer your voucher to another unit.

And what happens in that situation? People lose their vouchers. They lose their vouchers because they cannot lease up fast enough to meet those requirements. So we don't have to sit here and talk about it like it doesn't happen. We know what's happening with

those vouchers in real time. So, I don't I know I'm not gonna I'm not going to sit up here and listen to anything that like disqualifies the real experience that's going on in Durham because people need to really understand what's happening with that. Um, I also want to state that we have housing authorities. We first of all, we have one in Charlotte.

They're doing fine with this code that the ordinance exactly is written. Um, we also have housing authorities all across the country in states with much stricter tenant protections. They are all okay. And in fact, they're all doing way better than the Durham Housing Authority is.

So, just say that for its for what it is. I mean, we we have Yeah, we've we all know the problems. I don't need to wax on about them. Um, and then the final thing I want to say about this is that the housing authority, yes, provides almost all of our affordable housing that is in the city, but they also have buildings and they are subject to our city codes and we inspect those buildings and we therefore have the right to levy penalties on those buildings if they do not meet the health and safety standards that we have for this city. So, I'm not interested in amending any further. Like

I said, I will um I will entertain a um 48 hour curing period. Um but that is the extent of those amendments that I'm willing to entertain. [Applause] Thank you so much. Thank you.

So I uh I >> Yes, ma'am. >> Thank you. I did want to just say go Pirates. Sorry.

That was a >> Are you done? Um All right. Uh thank you so much. And I I for those of you who know me personally know I'm very prideful and I I just I hate it saying um

we're going to be like Charlotte, be like Charlotte. I I just I I think we're better than Charlotte. And um when we were talking about this in work session, I I wanted us to um I wanted us to really, you know, put some muscle behind this to make sure that it's it's ironclad. Um but work, you know, just speaking with my colleagues and, you know, just understanding the risk and the um you know, just just what's at stake.

Um I I think that we will be okay. Um, I know that I I do want to put something on the record. I just because we are defiantly Durham. Uh, we tend to know what's before us and then we um sometimes still push the envelope.

So there there is a preeemption clause that I want to make sure that everyone is aware of and then I'm going to ask my colleagues to uh um come to a vote. So Mr. attorney. We were

we were briefly talking about that preeemption clause. I just want to make sure we are clear what that >> Yeah. Just just to summarize, since the uh the work session, the city attorney's office reviewed um the memo from the tenants union and um provided a memo to the council and um in that memo uh continued uh did not uh did not change its opinion with regard to um the authority of uh the city. um and specifically made reference to the landlord tenant act uh and sustained this opinion that um the the city is preempted expressly preempted um by that act. And that's why the city gave the opinion that um that uh the statute doesn't authorize the uh council to enact or enforce this ordinance. So that is the opinion of the city attorney's

office. It has not changed and and that's uh that's just a summary of of what city attorney's office has done to this point. >> Thank you. So I I think we all uh know that it is uh it is not for it's not enforceable.

It's not for us. It's for it's a tool for for tenants. Um but I think it also works two ways. It is really to protect the transaction of a dwelling space between you know um the uh the tenant and and and the landlord.

Uh so uh but I also could you come back up? No way it's brief. I just want you to state those three um three points again briefly. >> So the three uh amendments that we uh proposed would be in response to the Danzy decision and that would be to add a notice period to add uh a knowledge requirement. Um but again just to reiterate in conversation with council

members this there seems to be a statutory interpretation that those are already in the municipal code. So the most important one for us would be the 48 hour curing period. >> Yeah. >> Well, if if you're looking to me with regard to how to put that in, I'm not going to make a particular re recommendation of the precise wording or where that should go.

Not certainly not here. Um uh I'm not prepared to do that. Um >> that's that's fine. >> Okay.

>> Yeah, that that's fine. I just I just wanted to But we can do that. We would have to adopt ultimately we'd have to whether it be by amendment, we'd have to adopt the change. If if the council proceeds with adopting something tonight and we agree, if the city attorney's office agrees that um it's uh strengthened with a cure um period, we would come back to you with the appropriate amendment in the appropriate place. That would be my recommendation rather than actually propose that right now.

Okay. Uh, council member, >> thank you. Um, I wouldn't mind that. I would also I mean when we've done some other things, we've had a period of going back and and seeing um what the what the outcome was like what is it is it moving anything?

Is it doing anything? Does it need to be updated? So, if we have to come back and add this cure language, which I think is a good idea. I think it resolves some of the concerns that I certainly have with this ordinance.

Um I I would I would appreciate that and I appreciate what council member Cook is saying about this list, but I'm looking at the list and um at least the roof part and the other one are in there. So I'm not really quite sure. Um again, I would rather have it tied to our code because those are our rules. Like I don't care what Charlotte's doing, right?

That's their code. It's our code. And so, um, happy to keep moving tonight, but at some point this is going to have to come back and we're going to have to tweak

language so that we can get it right. Thank you. >> Okay. Uh, just to make sure I'm on track here.

Uh, Mr. Attorney, you are suggesting that we I mean, if we are going to make any adjustments, then we can we should do that later. Uh, but not add that to what we have now. My recommendation if we're making changes to uh the ordinance that's before you today is that any changes be crystal clear um and that the uh the the clerk understands what those are.

Um that's that's my recommendation. I do not have a recommendation to the extent that a cure period is advisable to add to the ordinance. I don't have a recommendation now to tell you where that should go in the in the proposed ordinance or somewhere else in the the code. Um it's just something that uh takes a little bit of time to to uh recommend >> that. So that was and and that recommendation was my my hold up on this

uh council member Cook. This is what I was speaking about earlier. Uh just that period uh the cure period uh for the sake of just facilitating the due diligence. Uh this is um so the recommendation that we're talking about is what my hope my hangup was which I think that amendment addresses my concern.

Uh so um >> can I ask a question? >> Yeah. >> So wouldn't a cure period be part of the way that it was administered and wouldn't that be more on the program side or the actual implementation side of this conversation rather than the ordinance? similar to like planning they have a like or just regular inspections >> inspections >> that's on the implementation side >> and I'm really not to to >> yeah that >> more than anything >> I'd have to defer to staff as to whether or not we've had an opportunity to to weigh in on a cure period. This is not a conversation that that we've had at the

administrative level. Alexis Strong. Good evening, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tim, and City Council. Alexis John Housing Code, um, housing and neighborhood services assistant director.

We currently do have a curing period within the current ordin ordinance that states that owners have 72 hours to make repairs to uh, the property. Okay, that works for me. >> Okay, thank you. If uh the C 72-hour curing period is on is uh on the code, the position of the North Carolina Tenants Union would be that we should adopt it as is. [Applause] All right. Any other comments?

>> Yeah. So, there's also there is was a proposal as well for this preeemption caveat before the ordinance that I hear council member Cook has suggested she does not accept that, but there may be support on the council for that. So, I want I want to put that out there. >> This was the uh which one was that again?

>> The uh >> that's a I can I can read it if you'd like. Um, and this is language that the city attorney's office shared today earlier that I've shared with with folks on the council. So, it would read otherwise unless otherwise preempted by state or federal law. And then the then the language then continues there.

>> Quick question. >> Go ahead. >> Quick question. Isn't that already the way every ordinance is received?

[Applause] >> One moment, please. Well, that's the wording is not in every ordinance. Um, so it's this is a proposal to make it expressly stated. >> Yeah.

>> What is that change? Because I I think >> the word that wording that phrase to say unless otherwise that's the express statement. >> Well, what I'm saying is what if we were preempted, we would just be preempted. The law would not stand.

Right? That's generally how this works. >> So when PRIP was was preempted, >> I think there are other reasons to make it express in particular. >> You got to say what those reasons are.

>> I'm sorry. Well, given the opinion that we have given previously is to um our authority. Our recommendation is if you do want to adopt this to make it clear that we're we're saying it's it's uh an ordinance that is uh effective. um is applied so long as um it is uh uh uh consistent or does not is not does not conflict with the uh authority of is not pre otherwise preempted. I'm sorry and I don't have the wording in front of me. >> And I think I I understand what you're

trying to put in place is to make sure that the city attorney's office has has offered its objection to it. But what I'm saying is if it were preempted by the state or federal government, it would automatically kill the ordin ordinance. Am I under some like I'm correct me if I'm wrong. That's what I'm saying.

>> Well, but the ordin um I think that that I think that that's a >> one second, M. Uh folks, do we I mean, we want to get this through. We really do. Um I think that that is a difficult question to answer in uh the um uh you know without concrete examples and scenarios. I think was one was the one I gave as an example. >> And so part of the issue is um is who is going to be applying this ordinance and

who's going to be relying on the ordinance. >> Um that's part of the the question here. >> So So that is I that was a recommendation that we we had if you wanted to proceed with the proposed wording. I I hear what you're saying.

I hear what you're saying in the unsaid. Thank you. >> I'm going to go back to my previous statement, which is that we have an ordinance that has been unchallenged in a different municipality for a long period of time. Um, we don't need to add any confusion to this.

If we are creating a tool for tenants to use, then let's create a tool for tenants to use and let's not add any extra language that might cause distraction or cause someone to challenge it or cause someone to think that maybe it does not apply to them. We know that city law is preempted by state law and state law is preempted by federal law. We have a hierarchy. We

do this all the time in court where laws conflict. We always take the more powerful law. It's a thing that we learn our first year of law school. Um, and it is exciting to do it in real time, I will say, because it's challenging sometimes to find where things are in conflict.

But for me, adding in language that's going to make this more vague, potentially accept people from it, um, potentially add a target to our backs, it's not a friendly amendment. I would say it was the opposite. Right. Yeah.

Go ahead. >> Yeah. So, um I I'm not an attorney as council member Cook is. Um we have ra we we rely on our city attorney as as council as mayor PM said our job here is to figure out the best way to make this work for Durham. We've received intelligence from the housing authority which is not part of the city of Durham, a separate organization that this is a this is a challenge. We've gone to the

" We've asked their advice. This is the advice they've given us, and that's what I'm bringing forward. >> All right. Yep.

Go ahead. >> Yeah, I think that Council Member Cook, I appreciate what you're doing here. Um, part of being one of seven is to come to consensus. At least I'm interested in that.

Um, and so this is an ordinance where most of us are in agreement. There is an a line being added based on, you know, city attorney advice. I appreciate that you are attorney, but you are not in the city attorney's office and neither are you an expert in municipal law. And so I think that um I am interested in adding that. I think it it I I think that it is helpful and I appreciate the city attorney's advice. There have been many times that residents have come and advocated for something that we don't have the legal

authority to do and we've had to spend often many years trying to craft a workaround. We often call it the Durham workound. Uh tax relief during the pandemic when we provided grants and loans to small businesses. Uh small businesses wanted us to do grants that is clearly not allowed.

And so we created a fund with Duke and Duke did the grant side and we did the lowinterest loan side because that's what we had the authority to do. So this is not any different for me. This is part of being a local leader, a municipal leader in the state of North Carolina. It's frustrating.

It's challenging. It makes it hard to do your job, but it is what it is. And so I am interested in adding that. I appreciate um what you've said, but again, we often have to pivot or change things that we want as council members to bring everyone along. And I think most of us are there. Um

so, >> please decorum, please. >> Um that's where I'm at. Uh, I think it would be helpful to add that clause and I understand and appreciate why the city attorney's office is suggesting it. Thank you.

>> So, I think I think what is being missed is this is a specific crafting that is meant to work as a tool and that would undo the tool. So you're you're missing like this is not like trying to get everybody to consensus where you just change a couple of words and it still works the same way. That addition would give people a hangup to skip the reason we're putting the tool in place. So the sentences themselves become additional words to challenge.

Don't add any additional words. Leave it. And I'm I'm not I'm trying like I'm trying to be really like serious. been

saying like it's this is not this is not like you know trying to get to PB or whatever. This is this is specific to if we were trying to put in place an immigrant defense we would want the language to be as tight as possible so that you couldn't work around it. You don't make it looser. You don't give anyone a way out.

And I would cause it that if preempted by the state of North Carolina, we wouldn't have that authority. And so that's what's at stake here. >> And that's why I'm saying if it was preempted, >> it has preempted. That's why we would have that authority if it was.

>> All right. Thank you. >> Yeah. Well, actually, my bad.

>> I'll yield. I'll yield. I'll >> Yeah. Council member Rrist, >> I just want to ask a quick question to the city attorney.

So, would this clause violate the ordinance we're discussing in your opinion? >> Would it violate what? >> Would it would it would it undo the

ordinance that we're considering? No. >> In your opinion? >> I don't.

No. >> All right. >> I I colleagues, I appreciate this this discussion, debate, whatever you want to call it, very much. Um I I guess the controlling question for me is will it do violence to the tool ship the efficacy uh of the tool ship because again Charlotte has not enforced this.

So to make a to make an icon of Charlotte's ordinance that has not been enforced I mean they're they're as much as in experimental territory as we are. Um, and I think our, with all due respect, I think our attorneys are smarter than Charlotte's attorneys. Um, and they came and headunted one from us. So, so I hope I don't get into a intermunicipal fight. Um I uh again I'm I'm I'm supportive of

providing this tool for tenants, but I also know that sometimes in heated discussions sometimes we get into a rut where we defend for the sake of defense where we're so vested uh in something that belongs to all of us. There there's there's 300,000 people in the city. There are multiple perspectives and there's nothing wrong with this council, seven people that represent any one of us. There's probably thousands of people in the city that agree with our position just by virtue of us being up here.

And I don't think we should easily dismiss that. So I I don't want to be dismissive of any of my colleagues because the thousands of people put them here of our neighbors and friends and residents. So I I I don't want to disrespect the process of deliberation or or or be lulled into thinking that my position is the only position and the only right one. Um we we have to be very cautious of that.

That's where democracy starts to break down. With that said, my only question, and I put this to anyone, is it does the language do violence to providing a tool? And if so, how does it? And if we're comparing it to a city that's never enforced it in the first place, how do we know that?

Um, but again, I'm prepared to to support it as is, but I don't want to be dismissive of of my colleagues raising uh questions. um pursuant to their sworn duty uh to do this. I I I think that would be a a disservice um to our public square to do that. But I am prepared to to support it as is.

But that question does stand. Would it do violence to the to the effect of it? Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

>> M Mr. Mayor, I'm I'm if if folks are ready, I'm okay with introducing a a motion. I I have a few uh amendments that uh none seem to cause any violence

or harm or damage. Um I just need to remember to order. So >> I'm sorry. What >> we haven't agreed to any amendments and in fact they said that because there was the 72-hour period code that we Yes.

>> All right. >> And I want to just say to the mayor prom's point that's the exact crux of the issue. um it will in fact impede the tool. It wouldn't make any difference for the city.

We only are >> I'm sorry you said it would it would what >> it would it would affect that as a tool for tenants. Um and I'm there's people here who I literally practice in eviction court all day every day. So I do find that I'm an expert in this field. There are other folks here who um Thank you.

I'm not like this isn't like a thing. I'm just speaking from personal knowledge, but there's also other experts here who can speak to this as well. Um, but it would impact its ability as a tool. It doesn't make a difference for us because we can't

enforce something that's preempted. So, it doesn't really impact us either way. But what it does do is it weakens it takes the teeth out. It weakens the tool for tenants.

And so, that is the crux of the issue. And that is why I'm so opposed to this. It's not because I don't want to reach a consensus up here, but if it means leaving behind some tenants, I'm not willing to sacrifice them. No, I I I [Applause] listen as I have I'm I'm giving great deference to you in this in this conversation and and I I appreciate and my question was genuine.

It it was a genuine uh inquiry to see whether or not it would and I appreciate I do appreciate No, I appreciate the spirit of the response and I respect the work you do and the expertise you do. Um, and the question was a real question um, in seeking to to come as close as we can to um, shared ownership of this ordinance because it will become the the property of the people of Durham. Uh, all of us and we speak for all of those people. So, thank you. >> Thank you. Speaking of question, I'm going to call it.

I'll entertain a motion to add a new subcategory F in the code of ordinances chapter 10 article 6 section 10-241 violation penalty fees as proposed. >> So moved. >> I'll second. >> Thank you colleagues.

Madam clerk, please open the vote. That's one more. >> Oh, I'm sorry. It was me.

>> I'm sorry about that. All right. Please close the vote. All right.

>> The motion passes unanimously. >> Thank you. I'm very

[Applause] And now, >> uh, Madam Clerk, um, regarding this this ordinance, I need to make sure that we clearly state because it wasn't in the in the motion that the effective date would be the date that we passed, which would be October 20th, 2025. [Applause] All right. Thank you, colleagues. >> 22.

>> Yep. Item number 22. Colleagues,

colleagues will re uh recess for just five minutes. Five minutes. Five minutes. [Applause] >> I'm Austin.

>> Oh, hey. >> Nice to meet you. I wanted you to know my face. So, if you

I think you're already

Maybe it's not on. Let's try it again. There we go. Awesome.

Good evening. My name is Jalisa Harris. I'm a staff planner in the land development review workg groupoup in the planning and development department. Staff requests that all planning and development department testimony and materials presented be made part of the permanent record.

This street closing request SC25001 was continued from the August 4th city council meeting to allow further discussion with the applicant about the provision of a greenway easement for the proposed Rockwood Trail. This request is for the permanent closure of a 402 linear foot portion of Cliff Street between Blunt Street and Rosedale Avenue. A revised plat has been submitted by the applicant which provides two greenway easements, one parallel to Cliff Street and one running perpendicular to Cliff Street and

connecting to Sycamore Street. The portion of Cliff Street as shown in attachment A, the context map proposed for closure has not been opened and does not contain any public improvements or uses. 46 46 acre of right-of-way will be recombined with the adjacent parcel identified with a real estate ID 107722 and the address 1700 Cliff Street. 5 acre parcel as shown on the associated street closing and recombination plat attachment D.

The new parcel is intended to be reserved for development in the future for which plans have not yet been submitted by the property owners. The parcels adjacent to the cliff street portion are also owned by the parties requesting the closure. If the proposed

partial street closer is approved by council pursuant to North Carolina general statute section 160D-501 and 160D-605, the parcel identified with the real estate ID 107722 as recombined with the former dedicated rideway should be designated established residential on the place type map of the comprehensive plan. Thank you so much. I'm going to declare this public hearing open, but before we go uh to the applicant in the gallery, I'm going to yield for any questions uh from my honorable colleagues. Council member Cook.

>> Thank you. Um so I was really pleased to read um the easements and I but I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit about it because last time um I thought we talked about the easements weren't we were not able to do them in this type of street closing. Can you just explain like how we now have these two easements? >> Sure. And I'll allow Derek Young to

speak to the easements. >> I guess the question is like whether it was just a revision or and how that happened. >> This is Jessica Dockery with the planning and development department. So, the easements are not actually in the right of way.

They are at the north side of that parcel that is going to be recombined with the right of way that's to be closed. And uh Rosedale runs north south to the east of that on the private property. That's where this the easement will be located. >> Sorry.

So, the second one is on the private property and the first one you >> they're both on private property versus in the right. So, that's because right ofway should only be for streets and there's interesting we didn't have a mechanism for that. The applicant has been willing to give an easement across their private property.

>> Okay. So it's not actually technically the property at issue in the street closing where the easement is going to. >> There's one that will be in that parcel but not in the right of way. So when they combine it will be all in the same parcel but at the north side versus the right the south side which is where the right of way is.

>> Okay. >> Does that make sense? >> Yes. But I I thought that we I thought that we were talking about this last time and we were told that easements couldn't be part of the street closure and so that was the that I thought was the issue.

>> You mean it as the the same process. >> Yeah, >> we have talked to the attorneys and >> we feel good about it. Okay, awesome. It just has changed.

I just wanted to make sure >> and it has only happened one more time that I'm aware of. So, it is a very unusual situation but it worked out this time. >> Great. Thank you.

Those are my questions. Thank you. >> Thank you, Council. Council member Baker.

>> Yeah, just following up on that. So um this is a to to vacate uh a portion of of Cliff Street. The legal mechanism is did they also submit like a parallel application for uh re for a plat? Is

that what we're talking about here? >> So the street closing plat also shows recombination because the right of way becomes part of another parcel or multiple parcels. And in this case, the only difference from that is that we're also adding easements to it. >> Cool.

All right. Thank you. >> Thank you, council member colleagues. Anyone else?

All right. This public hearing is open. I'm going to invite the applicant uh to please approach. >> Good evening, sir.

How much time do you anticipate needing? >> Uh only a very few minutes, I expect at this point. Uh, >> let's let's put 12 minutes on the clock, please. >> But my wife Chan and I are going empty have gone empty nest and we are of course looking to downsize that comes with it. We have lived in the neighborhood since

we moved in in 1992. So have lived there nearly 35 years now. We want to stay in the neighborhood. We want to be in a position to age in place.

And to do that, we propose to build a smaller house on the than we're currently in on the 1700 Cliff Street lot. The closing that we're asking for is part of our plan to build that house. Now, as Miss Harris mentioned in her summary at the August 4th city council meeting, the concern that was raised was access to the Rockwood Trail, which runs what to which is proposed to run west of our property. And the concern of course was that closing Cliff Street would block east west access from Rosedale Avenue to

uh the proposed Rockwood Trail. Uh at the August 4th session, council basically told us to work with planning to see if we could develop a win-win solution. I believe the exact words win-win were used by were used by a member of the council at that session. So we have work we have done that we have worked with count we have worked with planning and we have worked with uh parks and wreck and we have come up with this proposal which you see in the plat in front of you. We are proposing a greenway easement that runs across the north side of the 1700 Cliff Street property. And at the request of parks and wreck, we have also given an easement on the other property that we own, 1700 cliff, 1700 sycamore

street running roughly uh northwest southeast across that property and parks and recck asked for that and we have agreed to give it to them. So I believe that at this point we have found the win-win solution that we were looking for after the August 14 August 4th meeting and I thank you for your consideration and I am certainly here to answer any questions or concerns that you have. >> Thank you so much for being with us sir. We do have a speaker sign of Chris Pearlstein.

Thank you for being with us. You'll have three minutes. >> I'm back. I thought about the bow tie more and I do still like it.

NC State colors. >> I appreciate that, man. Thank you. >> So, uh the applicant actually reached out to me and we chatted about their plans um which, you know, aren't expressed in uh the the the the plot,

you know, and and the the application for closing uh Cliff Street. And after talking to them, u you know, the they expressed that their desire um wasn't to isolate the properties or prevent future development um potential in an area that is bus accessible, which is a big concern of mine. Um I believe the profer of the greenway easement would solve pedestrian bicycle access, assuming the city completes the short greenway segment as well as the remainder of cliff and blown paper streets. Um so we really need the city to um kind of focus on coming up with some good policies and finishing this network u to avoid these situations.

the city could also avoid I I referenced that the um draft UDO would forbid new dead-end streets uh and my concern that we would be potentially creating those um with this closure. The city could also avoid those by completing the Rosedale and Morland paper streets. Um so there's some options here, but it requires the city to establish, you know, those policies to do this. Um on top of the safety improvements of reducing vehicle miles traveled, uh per our vision zero action plan, there's an affordability component that's really important to me. Um as

transportation makes up the second biggest uh chunk of household expenses after the first one that we've talked a lot about um which is uh rent. Affordability is about more than just your rent and mortgage. It's also about lifestyle choices that housing and infrastructure do or don't provide to you. And I'd like to offer a quick solution um if I have enough time uh filling out uh about filling out our paper street network in the form of something from our past that is distinctly Durham in the triangle and even the state at large.

We are unique in the quantity and character of our alleyways. Um, and there's something that I really enjoy walking and biking on. U, they're narrow streets that facilitate everything from commercial opportunities that you see downtown um, to diverse housing options like ADUs. They provide safe, calm options for pedestrians and cyclists.

They do this while taking up less width and complexity compared to a modern street and at a much lower cost. Unfortunately, our UDO both presently and in the new draft doesn't allow for this distinctly Durham feature to be leveraged and would be a great way for us to fill out our network in a cost-effective manner. Um,

taking my neighbor at his word that he doesn't desire to reduce those transportation housing options um and with the profer of the greenway um the greenway easements. I don't oppose this closure now, but the ball is is in the city's court to make sure that we continue to build an environment that aligns with our values, whether that's safe streets or affordable living circumstances. These issues are all connected, and I think that, you know, if this moves forward, um, which I I think you should support at this point, we need to facilitate these options through filling out our paper street network. And I think that this is a model perhaps how we should do these um street closures moving forward.

We should be getting something for giving up city land. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. That's the only registered speaker I had.

This is a public hearing. Is there anyone else in the chamber who wishes to speak on this item? Anyone else? With that being said, I'm going to declare the public hearing closed.

The matter is back before the council. Colleagues, questions, comments? Council member Cook. I just want to say briefly that I really appreciate your work on this um and am

really grateful that you all have been able to come to something that works well for us and I'm excited to uh like our speaker has said uh make sure that we actually use utilize that and and um get some connectivity going on in that area. So I just want to appreciate the work that y'all did and staff um so that we have a great project in front of us. Thank you. >> Thank you, Council Member.

Council member Baker. Yeah, I uh I was one of the folks that was that was not happy when this originally came to us. Um and and now I am. I think we've reached the win-win.

Um I don't think that it would have made the city better to close a right of way that leads to a potential future greenway. Um and now we have we are we are closing the potentially vote voting to to to close the uh right of way, but we are adding not one but two connections. And I think that that is a key is that it's it's adding two connections and not just one. So it really is a win-win and it is making the connectivity better in that area. So I'm

I'm happy with with where we've landed on this one. >> Thank you, Council Member. Council member Freeman. >> Thank you.

Just a quick question for Chris. I I just wanted to get the second. I got Rosedale, but there was another paper street that you mentioned in your neighborhood. I was trying to keep up.

>> Um yeah. So, uh, sorry, I've got to read through my notes here. Um, so it's Rosedale and Morland, which are, um, to the to the east of the property. Uh, they're north south, uh, streets, I believe.

Um, I might get these confused. Uh, Rosedale, I think, actually has like a essentially a mulched area uh, that the neighborhood, Am I getting that right? Rosedale is the one that's there's >> Yeah. So, it's neighbors have, I think, cleared it out and it's it's used to to walk through there.

But, I do think we'd be better off if like the city could figure out how to do a paved greenway or even gravel or something like that. Make it easier for folks to to to navigate that a little bit more formalized. Um, so that's Rosedale and Morland.

>> Thank you. I really appreciate you spending the time volunteering to bring that type of information forward. It's important from the neighborhood level to hear folks speaking up on their greenways and especially when you have alleys in your community. That's helpful.

Um, and then I do want to also appreciate the applicant um being willing to to hear the council's concerns and really try to figure out how to make sure that there was access. Thank you very much to you and your wife. >> Thank you. Council member Caballero, did you have anything on this?

>> Council member. >> Council member Ris. >> Thank you, Mayor Pam. Yeah.

Similarly, I just want to thank uh Mr. Mr. Hamilton and Miss Jackson. We asked you in August to go back um and work on this and address a connectivity issue and that's exactly what you did.

Um you've done the work. To me, this is all about abundance, right? It's like more housing. It's more connectivity.

We asked for one and you gave us two. So, that's like wonderful. So, I want to really appreciate you for that. Um I also want to appreciate Mr. Perilstein on behalf of BPAC for just for being

such a like a thoughtful and steady presence on all issues related to connectivity. It means a lot. Um, this is great stuff. I think as you said, Mr.

Pery, now it's on us, right? We've got to we've got to pro provide the funding and as we talked about at the break, you all had suggested this, I think probably back in the 90s, right? So, we just got to find the money at the city here to make that happen and it's on us. So, thank you so much.

I'm happy to support this. >> Thank you. Thank you for working with staff. I wish you well in your next chapter.

Mr. Mayor, did you have anything on this before we >> I'm all good. All right, then colleagues, this uh item requires two motions. At this time, I'll entertain a motion.

Did I I closed the Did I close the hearing? I did. Okay. Uh requires two motions.

Uh first, uh motion, I'll entertain a motion to permanently close a 402 linear foot portion of Cliff Street between Blunt Street and Rosedale Avenue. >> I hear a motion in a second. Madam Clerk, would you please open the vote?

Please close the vote and report out. >> Motion passes 70. >> I'll entertain a motion to amend the place type map of the comprehensive plan to designate parcel identified with read 107722 1700 Cliff Street as recombined with the former dedicated rightofway as established residential. >> So move a motion in a second.

Madam clerk, would you please open a vote? Please close the vote and report out. >> Motion passes 70. >> Thank you.

Item 22 is discharge. Mr. Mayor, do you want to reassume? >> You know what?

I think you're doing a great job, May. >> I figured you would. Uh item number 23, consolidated zoning mat from the earlier. Yes, we are.

Raven Stone commercial. We'll uh hear from our staff. Mayor Williams, Mayor Prom Middleton,

and honorable council members. Good late evening. I am Payton Burgess with the Planning and Development Department, and I am happy to be here with you tonight. Before I begin, staff would like to state for the record that all planning department hearing items have been advertised and noticed in accordance with state and local law, and affidavit of all notices are on file in the planning department.

42 acres and located at 5204 Wake Forest Highway. The current zoning is commercial center with a graphic development plan. The applicant proposes to change this designation to commercial general with a textual development plan. The applicant is proposing to reszone the property to allow most uses within the commercial general district.

The properties are currently designated suburban commercial on the place type map. The proposed commercial general zoning is generally consistent with the designated place type. Thank you. Staff and the applicant are available for any questions. Thank you so much for the report. I'm

going to declare this public hearing open before we go to the gallery and the uh proponent the uh applicant. I'm going to yield to my honorable colleagues for any questions or comments they may have on this matter. All right. Seeing none, I'm going to invite the applicant to come up.

Good evening. Thank you for being with us. How much time do you anticipate needing, sir? >> Just a couple minutes.

>> Couple put put seven minutes on the clock, please. >> Yeah. Good late evening. Uh, Mayor uh Williams, uh, Pro Middleton and council members, uh, Jeremy Anderson, Thomas and Hutton, 2510 Midian Parkway here in Durham.

Um, I'll keep this brief. I was going to anyways, but uh, given the time of the evening, um, pretty straightforward. We are looking to reszone a commercial property that's landlocked within the Ravenstone commercial shopping center. Um that shopping center was zoned with a development plan back in 2006 and it's uh this parcel is designated as retail only. It is sat vacant for about 20 years 19 20 years. Um, so the developer,

the owner is looking just to open that up to general development um by changing it from CC with that retail only just to commercial general. Uh, we did uh exclude a list of uses um just based on on you know that that would make the neighborhood a little more comfortable. We did have two neighborhood meetings. There wasn't much push back on any of that.

But uh that's it. It's uh we think it sat vacant because it really has limited visibility. It's kind of behind the shopping center. So, um it's not really ideal for retail.

So, commercial general um to open up the development possibilities for and hopefully um you know develop that infill parcel. So, with that, I'll uh I'll be here to answer any questions. Thank you. Thank you very much.

I don't have any speakers signed up for this item. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone in the gallery who wishes to speak on this item? >> Seeing none, I'm going to declare this public hearing closed and back before the council.

Colleagues, questions, comments? Council member Cook. >> Thank you. I have a couple questions for you, Mr. Anderson. Um the first is did you follow up with the HOA about the storm drain?

>> Not we did not follow up directly with them. I do have an answer. I was wondering if they would be here to to follow up with that question. Uh the question if I recall was you know we were were we using their storm drainage to handle our storm water?

And the answer is right now the drainage comes off that parcel and goes into a storm water pond that is I think for the neighborhood and for the shopping center. So all the drainage right now goes there's no way around it. It goes to this pond that was developed as part of the neighborhood the shopping center. Um, with future development, we've kind of analyzed it from an engineering perspective and either we would connect to a storm water pipe leaving the shopping center or we would discharge off the low end of our property uh the property um like a traditional development would just discharge that property line back to pre-development conditions. So the water is going to make it to that pond, but we are we would develop the storm water on site independently um and not use that storm water pond for this development storm

water treatment. >> So I think they were concerned we were using that pond, you know, for our use and we're not. It's just downstream and we'll treat storm water on this parcel in >> Is that different than what the food line does? >> The food line, I believe, drains to that pond.

And sorry, and you said that y'all were either going to connect a storm water pipe. >> That's where all the water goes regardless of whether it's connected to a pipe or just drains across the surface land. It all goes to that pond. >> Okay.

I mean, I think the question was whether y'all would would pay for the use of that since they built it or it up. >> We wouldn't see we would devel we would contain storm water on property back to pre-development conditions. So, we wouldn't be using any use of it. It's really just a downstream storm water device like a like a stream or a natural pond would be.

It just happens to be a constructed storm water pump. There's no way to avoid this water not running into that pond. >> Okay. Um would you mind having a conversation with them again just for for

>> Okay. posterity. Um and then the second thing is um you talked about how unlikely and unappealing it would be to have residential on this space. Are y'all willing to commit to not doing residential since it's so unlikely?

>> Uh I don't think so. We've just because you're not sure what the development options would be. Um I say it's unlikely just from experience land planning, you know, accessing a residential development of 20 25 units behind a shopping center literally kind of off the service or most likely this development would share the driveway with the Goodwill. That's where the access easement is.

So, it's uh it's unlikely, but we're not willing to strike residential as a possible use. >> Okay, those are my questions. >> Thank you, council member. Colleagues, anyone else? >> All right, this uh item requires two motions. At this time, I'll entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance amending the unified development ordinance by taking property out of commercial center with a development plan falls Jordan

watershed protection overlay district B and establishing the same as commercial general with a development plan falls Jordan wershed protection overlay district B. >> So moved. >> Second. >> I've heard a motion and a second.

Madam clerk, would you please open the vote? Please close the vote and report out. >> Motion pass 70. >> I'll entertain a motion to adopt a consistency statement as required by NCGS section 160D 605.

>> So move a motion in a second. Madam clerk, would you please open the vote? Waiting for one more. Please close the vote and report out.

>> Motion passes 70. >> Thank you. Madam 23 is discharge. I'll yield to the mayor. >> Thank you. >> Yes, ma'am.

>> Um I just was curious if we could maybe do the item 25 ahead of item 24 because it might be more straightforward. So just was curious if you were willing to do that. >> Without objection. Um colleagues, we will move to item number 25.

May maybe that's not what folks wanted. Sorry for any of the applicants. Apologies. Okay.

[Laughter] >> I'm sorry. Would would you yield for a minute, please? I'm sorry. On um on the previous the vote we just took on number item number 23. Uh, Council Member Ris has indicated that in the memo it says there would be three motions for this and there's two uh, appearing on the uh, cover it. I just want to make sure we've done our due diligence for this item.

>> Yeah. So, there's a utility extension agreement involved with this case. So, that should have been a motion as well. >> All right.

If it wasn't on the sheet that I normally I'm going to um uh entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance amending the unified development ordinance by taking property out of commercial center with the development plan, Falls Jordan watershed protection overlay district B and establishing the same as commercial general with the development plan falls Jordan wershed protection overlay dis. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're right.

Okay, I'm reading the wrong one. I'm going to entertain a motion to authorize a city manager to enter into a utility extension agreement with Anderson Marlo. So >> move second. >> I hear a motion to second.

Would you please open the vote, Madam Clerk? >> Please close the vote and report out. >> Motion passes 70. >> My thanks to Council Member RZ for the assistance.

Now item 23 is discharged. We'll move on. Thank you. I yield to the mayor.

>> Thank you. The next case is consolidated annexation Wake Olive. Ready for the

staff report. >> Are we doing uh 1607 >> uh consolidated zoning map change 167 East Cornwallis Road which is the result of the applicant providing the resident's breakfast because I skipped number 24. >> Thank you, Mayor Mayor, >> Mayor Williams, Mayor Proin Middleton and honorable council members. Good evening.

I'm Andy Lester with the Planning and Development Department. It's good to be with you all. 91 acres and located between 1601 and 1625 East Cornwallis Road. The current zoning is commercial neighborhood with a graphic development plan that allows up to 12,800 square ft, a banking facility, sunundry store, laundry mat, dry cleaning pickup station, real estate rental office, barber shop, beauty shop, andor gift

shop. The applicant proposes to change this designation to commercial neighborhood with the textual development plan. The applicant is proposing to reszone the properties to allow for any use within the district except for educational facilities, medical facilities, indoor recreation, outdoor recreation, drive-through facilities, convenience store with gasoline sales, payday lenders, and vehicle sales. Vehicle service.

The properties are currently designated neighborhood service in the place type map. The proposed CND zoning is generally consistent with the designated place type. Thank you. New staff and the applicant are available for any questions.

>> Thank you. Colleagues, you've heard the staff report. Are there any questions? Technical questions?

>> All right. At this time, I'll declare the public hearing open. And I'll hear from the applicant. How much time do you think you need?

>> Maybe five minutes. >> All right. Please put seven minutes on

the clock. And uh good evening, Mayor Williams, Mayor Pro Tim Middleton, and members of the city council. I'm happy to >> uh an attorney with the Morning Star Law Group at 700 West Maine here in Durham. I'm representing the applicant on this and thank you, Mr.

Lester, for your presentation. Yeah, let me start by saying tonight is uh the valley where my family celebrates the triumph of good over evil, of light over darkness, of knowledge over ignorance. um primarily by cleaning our home, spending time with family, eating good food, and welcoming light and blessings into our home. Um I know by now I have missed the festivities at home.

I'm sure my wife uh lit some DAS with the kids, but anyway, I want to wish uh each of you and the city of Durham a happy Diwali, and I encourage you all to invite uh the light into your home and into your hearts. Um, okay. about this resoning. Uh during my career, I've come across a few parcels where the zoning was so uh restrictive

that it really only allowed for one or maybe a handful of uses. And that's this is one of those cases. Under the current zoning, the property can be used only for a handful of uses as you've heard from staff. So, banking, a sunundry store, laundry mat, dry cleaning, real estate office, barber shop, beauty shop, or gift shop, and that's it.

Um, a lot of those uses sound just fine, but the property has been zoned that way since 1981. Uh, the property has also been vacant since then, or probably vacant since before then. Um, and so that's, you know, over four decades, it appears the market has spoken. Probably none of those uses are going to happen on that parcel.

And so really, we're proposing to reszone the property basically to add more uses to the list of possibilities. really uh instead of adding more allowed uses, we are switching the condition to a list of prohibited uses which will leave more uses available on the property. The base zoning district will remain the same, and that's a commercial neighborhood. Uh we've prohibited school, medical

facilities, indoor and outdoor recreation, drive-through facilities, gas station, payday lenders, or vehicle service. And so that leaves a range of uses including uh residential, community service, daycare, place of worship, restaurant, but no drive-through, um smallcale retail and services uh or office. Um we also have added some commitments that are not exactly use related. We have limited uh non-residential square footage to 12,000 square feet.

We'll be using native plantings. We've limited the impervious area to no more than 70% of the property. Uh which in this location there is no impervious limitation. So that's an additional limitation there.

We also are making a contribution to Durham public schools and that's regardless of whether it's built out or residential. It's just something that the developer is going to do. And we added a commitment related to access because uh this was important for the city and NC DOT. Basically, we've added a commitment that there will be southbound left turn lanes on Corn

Wallace at the entrances um to however this property would be developed. And so, there's really not much to it. It's a case where the old zoning has proven to not be very useful. It's relatively small and he hemmed in piece of property with a lot of road frontage, but actually not a lot of depth.

You know, from a technical standpoint, it's not the best piece of property from a development standpoint, but the zoning obviously has been the biggest challenge here in the last few decades. The planning commission unanimously recommended approval. We hope to have your support tonight as well, and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you.

>> Thank you. >> And and now I owe some folks breakfast as well. Just >> Yep. Yep.

Yep. Uh, talag are there any questions? Well, let me uh de I don't have any public speakers so therefore I'll declare the uh one minute

24. >> All right. I don't have any public speakers uh any speakers signed up. So therefore I would declare the public hearing closed back before the council.

Colleagues, any comments? Yes. Council member, >> I just wanted to see if staff had any more context on the the way that the zoning was set in 1981. If not, I understand, but I just wanted to ask.

>> Thank you for the question. I think during the 80s and early 90s, there's more of a sight specific type development plan which sort of um constrained or set the specific use at a specific location. So over the years we've tended to go away from that to allow for flexibility. Um with those certain conditions you're locked in unless you go back through the resoning process.

>> And are there other sites similarly? Oh yeah. Could be because I I think it would be a healthy conversation or piece to bring forward a number of those to try and kind of lump them together so they don't have to come forward as

individual cases. I mean from that long ago if they're still vacant. >> Sure. One of the things that we are thinking about with the new UDO is um pretty much eliminating old development plans that have been inactive for x amount of years.

>> Okay. >> Um that year we don't know yet because it's still being um vetted. Uh but that idea is being worked on in the UDO. >> That's good to hear.

Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Um just a couple questions for you, Mr. Goch.

Um, okay. So, these are all kind of tied together, but I'm looking at this plot of land and it's backing up to um town houses across the street. There's some uh residential as well. I know that this was really really restrictive zoning before um and now it's sort of like opened up, but it's opened up quite

broadly. So, I was curious if um there was any interest in having a minimum of non-residential commitment or maybe like what your thoughts were on having commercial space here so that it would be some accessibility to the folks that were living nearby. >> All right. Yes.

So, to be clear, um it backs up to apartments. >> I think they might look like town homes, but they are apartments. >> Okay. Sorry.

I think it says apartments on my um townhouse neighborhood on my place type map. So, sorry, my bad. >> Oh, okay. I'm just Yeah, just that's what it backs up to.

There's residential across the street. There's also some non-residential across the street. Um but uh in the couple neighborhood meetings that we had um I would I'll just say there's primarily two things that um neighbors expressed an interest in seeing being built at this location. They were daycare and residential. Um, so I think the way

the property is set up, it is more than likely that it's going to be ultimately built for residential just because there isn't a whole lot of depth on the on these uh parcels. There's really just not a lot of room for for parking in building. So, it seems more than likely that this ultimately will turn into residential development. As far as the zoning opening up, I mean, the the number of uses, the use list that was uh that's currently on the zoning is really specific, but it is ultimately like retail or services.

That's what it entails. So, those uses would still be allowed. Beyond that, the new zoning really only adds the office component and the and the residential. It does allow obviously a lot of other retail uses, but those uses arguably should have been allowed in the first place.

They're just not because of the way the the zoning condition was written. >> Um, but uh I don't I don't know that there's really there's no plan on how this is going to redevelop. So, I think it would be I'm not going to be able to

make a commitment to a minimum amount of non-residential, but also I wanted to put on the record I'm not sure that there'll be any res uh non-residential build on this parcel. That's that's a possibility as well. >> You don't think there will be any non-resident? Okay.

>> Yeah, that's that's definitely >> just because of the space and the layout. >> Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.

>> Council member Rristston. >> Thank you, Mr. Go. Um I just had a question about the um the unfulfilled transportation request um that transportation made.

said I think they requested a profer um around uh subject to to a determination by go durham on the need for transit related improvements to construct a bus pull out and a bus uh p shelter. So >> and I understand like so as you describe it I think there I'm sure there's site constraints but I just want to hear you talk about that and whether that's something that's >> this site is very well served by transit. There are actually uh stops on both sides of Cornwallis from this at

this location at both the north end and south end of this property. There's active there I I think it's the eight and the 12. I might be wrong on that but there are bus stops active bus stops on either side of this assemblage. The request that we got from transportation was about increasing the the let's say level of amenity for the bus transit which I think is a great thing to do.

>> I mean that like the level of service there but >> well essentially adding a bus pull out >> right >> the site is 150 ft deep. A bus pull out makes the property not buildable for I mean that that is the site 150 ft that is a bus pull out. So basically, if we made that commitment, we'd be committing to building a bus pull out and that's it. >> So it doesn't really have any uh financial viability for for the owner if they committed to doing a bus pull out.

>> So what's the what's the frontage? How wide? >> The frontage is it's it's pretty long. It's got >> I'm not sure what the what the exact frontage is, but the depth it's 150 ft.

That's the problem, right? So a bus pull out would really just take away the developability of the parcel. And again, this one of the best things about the site is its access to transit. Could it be better?

I'm not suggesting it couldn't. If there was a bus pull out, that might make it a little easier, a little bit a little bit better. But this applicant really can't do that because that would essentially take up all of the developable area. >> Thank you.

>> Just a followup, has the developer been in contact with Go Triangle to >> I'm sorry, can you see it? Has the developer been in contact with Go Triangle? Does it mean essentially if it needed to be if that was a great area for a bus pull out it would >> I'm I honestly am having trouble hearing you right there but you asked if we've been in contact with Go Triangle but then I didn't hear the rest of it >> because of the location knowing that if it if it's hard if it's a hard site to build and it's still vacant and the

you're going through all this trouble if there's a if there's a medium win-win in there for there to be additional transportation for there to be a bus stop that area is I mean the bus stops are not going to be very safe making >> right the bus stops are essentially signs on the street that's yeah that's essentially what they are in this location >> but if there's an opportunity to make one you know a stop essentially like a little hub in that area >> is there any conversation around that or I mean I'm I'm forecasting >> so we did talk to trying. Um, and they're non-committal on it. This is essentially what they said. At time of sight plan, they could determine whether they wanted a transit stop in this location.

Um, if they took a transit stop in this location, it would it would not be an additional transit stop. It would be to consolidate or get rid of the existing transit stops, right? Um, so they really where that leaves the the

the property owner is they could make this commitment then at time of sight plan they would be required essentially to give the property to go Durham if they wanted it for a transit stop and then they wouldn't have anything really left to build. Go Durham wanted the land. They could take it for that purpose but they were non-committal on whether they wanted to take it. And hear me when I say this and I should probably be talking to our gom representative or go triangle representative and saying like if there's an opportunity to do a bus pull out tunnel tunnel over with housing, it's an opportunity to do both housing and transportation.

But if we're not having a conversation while this developer is looking while you're here, um you it's a missed opportunity because that area is missing. It's a it's I mean Does bus stop suck suck? >> They Yeah, they do. Okay. >> There's no if there's an opportunity to I don't know if those conversations are occurring with go triangle now and and around, you know, creating some

affordable housing at a bus stop, but it could be the opportunity to do some city go triangle, all of the above. Um, >> yep. Go triangle is open to some new ideas. I I'm I'm scarred from the the South Point Mall where it's like, okay, we're gonna put a Go Durham bus stop here and a Go triangle bus stop there, literally across the street from one another, and they were half million dollars each is absolutely crazy.

So, we're looking at new directions. So I would encourage some conversations with a I mean this site is specific and because it's been undeveloped. There's an opportunity here to go a little bit more uh densely, I dare to say, with the option to have an on a bus pull out or a bus stop that's actually even if it took up the 150 ft. You could always I don't know.

I mean, I'm from Jersey. I'm sorry. They have housing that goes up and uh your bus goes underneath it. So, it's almost like the hotels where you're

kind of having that that over. Anyway, it's a whole lot more is what I'm saying. >> You're talking about a completely different facility. >> I'm talking about an actual project, but that's more than what we're here for tonight, but it's almost 11 o'clock and my mind's going a million miles a minute, so I had to say it because it was on my mind.

But, >> no, I I appreciate what you're saying. >> I I love the abundance version of Council Member Freeman. You're right on target now. Now, we're talking.

I love it. >> Keep going. If we're talking better transportation, there's a benefit to the people of the city differentation. It's not just abundance, it's a benefit.

>> Oh, you're speaking abundance now. I love it. >> I I also feel is taking the podium for some reason, but I don't know. >> All right, colleagues, any other >> All right. Well, I don't have any um speakers signed up for this. So, at this time, I'll declare the public I declared a public hearing closed and back before the council

did that already. Sorry. >> Yeah, we're we're already did we were already there. Sorry, I relapse.

Um, so at this time I'll entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance to authorize the city manager to enter into a utility extension agreement with agreement with 1607 East Cornwallis LLC. >> So moved. >> Second. >> It's been moved and properly seconded.

Madam clerk, please open the vote. >> Please close the vote. >> Motion passes unanimously. >> Thank you.

I'll also entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance amending the uni the unified development ordinance by taking property out of commercial neighborhood with a development plan and establishing the same as commercial neighborhood with a development plan. >> So moved. >> Second. >> It's been moved and properly seconded. Madam clerk, please open the vote. >> Please close the vote.

>> Motion passes 70. Thank you. And lastly, I'll entertain a motion to adopt a consistency statement as required by North Carolina General Statute Section 160D-605. >> So moved.

>> Second. >> It's been moved and probably second. Madam clerk, please open the vote. Please close the vote.

>> Motion passes 70. >> Thank you. All right. Enjoy your family time.

Just want the record to reflect that the applicant and the residents are having a great time tonight. All right. And our last item on the agenda is consolidated annexation Wake Olive. We're ready for the staff report. >> Thank you. Um, a request for utility extension agreement, voluntary annexation, and

initial zoning map change has been received from Toby Coleman of Smith Anderson for two parcels of land totaling 12 uh 16 acres and located at 5247 and 5255 Wake Forest Highway. The annexation petition is not contiguous to the primary corporate limits, but is an expansion of an existing satellite. The current zoning is residential suburban 20 and residential rural. 270 to allow up to 210 dwelling units with up to 10,000 square ft of non-residential uses.

The properties are currently designated mixeduse neighborhood and place type map. 270 zoning is generally consistent with the designated use shown in the place type map. Thank you. Staff and the applicant are available for any questions.

>> Thank you. Are there any questions? Technical questions. Uh, Council Member Cook. >> Thank you. Um,

could you just You said it expands an an existing satellite, >> correct? >> Okay. >> It's the SECU to the southwest. >> Sorry, say that again.

>> It's the SECU that's to the southwest of the site across Wake Forest. >> That's how it connects. >> Okay. Thank you.

Um, I have some questions about sidewalk maintenance, which I hopefully y'all have talked about. I'm getting a nod from the back of the room. Okay. Um, can you work through those jurisdictional issues with me and help me understand why uh we were having issues with that frontage space?

No one. No one run to the microphone. >> Erlene Thomas, transportation. >> You're free to pull that mic down.

Erlene Thomas, Transportation Review Group of the Planning and Development Department. So, sidewalk the city of Durham can only maintain sidewalks that are within its jurisdiction, within the city limits. Um, anything outside of the

city limits, would be privately maintained by property owner if it's um on-site or even sometimes um within the rightway. NCD dot does not maintain sidewalls. Uh, and neither does the county currently >> and there's no exceptions to this and no workarounds. It is like forbidden that the city do it or we just don't do it.

>> I don't believe the city has the legal authority to maintain things outside of its jurisdiction. Um, additionally, you know, the city is using revenues, city revenues to do the maintenance um, of things within the corporate limits. >> Can I weigh in? Uh, so, and I might ask Director Young to the microphone. So, we spent a fair amount of time at staff on this issue, and I I don't believe maintenance of the sidewalk ended up being the barrier that that kept that conversation from moving forward. I

believe it is the topography of the potential connection and that this had to be for a sidewalk connection to to be connected to Neil Middle School, it had to be moved far back from the right of way onto private property and that made it a private property issue and a land acquisition issue. Am I summarizing that correctly? I know you had a much more detailed walkthrough of it, but I don't I don't believe if the only concern were maintenance, I believe we could probably find a workaround for that. Okay.

I believe it was the location of the sidewalk that kept that from >> being a viable option. Sarah, could you address that? >> Sure, Mr. Manager.

Um, yes, that is correct. There's a lot of what I would call practical constructibility issues with this location. uh the ride of way to to place the sidewalk in the ride ofway would entail moving all of the overhead power lines that run there. It would entail moving the Neil Middle School sign that is also

would be in line with that sidewalk. Um in addition, one of the structures and one of those intervening parcels is very very close to the rightway line and so there's not a whole lot of room there. In addition, um there is a swale. So storm water would have to be storm water.

Right now it's just a ditch swale um along that frontage. So storm water would have to be dealt with. So I think from a matter of constructibility and the cost of doing all those things, it is not very realistic. Does that help?

So I I agree with the manager's assessment that uh the maintenance is the least of the issues. We could work that out. >> Okay. and and I'm assuming that y'all had a convers and I guess this will be a question when the applicant comes up here to speak for it, but they were not willing to work with those costs even though they were a bit greater to create.

>> Say that again. >> Um even though the costs were a bit greater to create that side that front sidewalk um that they weren't able to do that. I guess this is a question for

them. Um I'm going to leave it for now. That makes sense to me except the power lines moving, but everything else makes sense to me. Um then I have another question that is probably an Andy question.

I have a vague concept of how um traffic limitation would work. Um I think the applicant explained it during the um during the planning commission relatively well. Um, so I like understand the concept, but I'm just curious like how it happens as a profer, like how the city follows up on that, how we are able to ensure that it's enforced. >> Oh, which type of profer?

>> There was the traffic limitation at peak hours. >> Back to transit. Awesome. Thanks.

>> Great. Early Thomas again, transportation review. Um so at the time of site plan we would review the application to see um what type of use

is proposed as well as the intensity to determine the number of peak hour trips that are generated and make sure that they're not exceeding it. >> Okay. So it's done at site plan and then that is that's over. So it's just based on the predictive data and that's that.

>> Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. Those are all my staff questions.

Thanks. >> Yes. Council member Freeman. >> Thank you.

And and I'm sorry, just based on the comments and the questions, I just wanted to know, so if you were wheelchair bound or stroller bound, like in this area, how would you navigate through that section? >> Would you mind rephrasing that question? Would you be in the street essentially or is there like asphalt like enough asphalt on the side of the road for you to at least walk or >> There's a 10-ft shared path um along the

frontage of Wake Forest Road and which would be used by all able bodies and disabled bodies. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> All right.

At this time, I'll now declare the public hearing open. Mr. Applicant, please uh be sure to give your information to the clerk for she did not receive it earlier. >> Absolutely.

Uh Toby Coleman with >> How much time do you think you need? >> I'm sorry. >> How much time do you think you need? >> Uh seven minutes.

>> All right. Put 10 minutes on the clock, please. >> Um so Toby Coleman with Smith Anderson. Uh live here in Durham.

2702. uh uh Steuart Drive uh and uh here on behalf of the uh developer redeeming development group, apologies. I'm >> going to pause you for one moment. There's a there's a under that um where your hands are, if you can press the button and lift it up. >> Um so you can be closer to the mic.

>> Yeah, >> there we go. >> That's for us. >> All right. >> For us tall folks.

>> Thank you very much, Mayor. Uh members of council uh again Toby Coleman with Smith Anderson uh here on behalf of uh the developer uh proposing this resoning and annexation redeeming development group. Uh with me today is uh David Blandon. Um thank you for uh hearing us tonight.

Um I was just going to highlight a few things. Uh I know most of you all have already looked at this pretty extensively. Um and I know it's late. So um this is a this is the second time y'all have seen this annexation and resoning.

uh you saw it last year on tax day, April 15th and at that time it was denied 5 to2. Um one of the main reasons was is that this uh this area is mixeduse development on the place type map and it didn't include retail in the initial uh proposal. Um, so this is the new improved resoning. Uh, and we have included uh some uh some retail non-residential uh up to 10,000 square

feet that has pushed up uh the consistency. Um, we've also um you there was a profer at the in the 2024 version, but we've kept that. So there's a 6% affordable uh um the traffic budget which I'm happy to address uh councelor Cook if you feel like you have any other questions. We've reduced residential density slightly and we've added some environmental protections which I I will address.

Um the end result which we're pretty proud of is we went from a unanimous recommendation of denial for the 2024 version of this resoning to a 7 to4 recommendation of approval at planning commission. Um here you can see some of I wanted to highlight some of the environmental conditions. Um, so one of the ones I I do want to profer here and staff has taken a look at this is that in addition, we've currently got in the text commitments a 100red-year storm water design. Um, we want to go ahead and also profer uh that for erosion and sedimentation control measures, structures, and devices, they shall be

so planned, designed, and constructed as to provide protection from the calculated maximum peak of runoff from the hundred-year storm. Um so again that's to basically require increased protections during erosion and sedimentation control basically during construction. Um the northern portion which I've highlighted here of the site will remain undeveloped. It's about 12% of the property.

Um and we've we put number of restrictions. So really there's very limited work that can be done there. Um we've our tax commitments increased the uh tree conservation and reduced impervious surface. Um and you know we offered up uh green certification for the buildings uh landscaping to use native plants.

Um one of the things that we spent a lot of time on in this case. So one of them was obviously the school um the school discussion which I'll get to in a minute. The other one was you know frankly when we ca when we went to the neighborhood meetings um we asked the question of what can we do to address

your concerns about erosion control and storm water? And we ended up getting referred to Sound Rivers. We spent a lot of time talking with Sound Rivers. And the thing that we heard um was they asked us to look at turbidity monitoring.

Um I wasn't familiar with it. Um you all may be, but um I just wrote this down. It's turbidity is basically how much suspended matter uh is in the water uh reducing the light. It's basically a measure of clarity of the water.

Um so I know you all have heard about that a lot in this area. Um and so our the request was can you do something to monitor the turbidity uh during construction. So we took a look at that. We spent a lot of time talking about that.

Initially for months it was a discussion about can you monitor uh just get some information. Um we ended up going to staff with Sound Rivers County staff because this is all a county thing. and we went to staff and we said, you know, we want to look at at

potentially doing a turbidity text commitment. Um, and around August, as we were starting to have these conversations, there started to be some sort of gaps between Sound Rivers and us about what we understood our discussion was. So, we always understood it to be a monitoring question because we don't know that much about turbidity. There's no there's no guidelines in state law or county in the county rules.

This is not something that is currently monitored. Um we got asked by Sound Rivers sort of as we started talking with staff to um set a limit and agree to a limit for turbidity and that if if and that if we exceeded that limit then we would do something about it. We we started talking with uh with with uh county storm water and we started asking questions like well how does that work? How would you guys do it? what would be a limit that you would make sense to you? You know, there was a proposal from Sound Rivers and basically the proposal from Sound Rivers when we

talked to the county about it, we said, well, if we're measuring turbidity coming out of the the the sediment control pipes and we're trying to meet the standard, I think it was was 50 and I always forget the turbidity measurement units, but 50 turbidity measurement units, right? Just just for for uh uh just for for reference sake. When I when I asked you know how would that work? They said if you could do that we would come and study your site because we would want to know what you're doing.

In other words, probably not feasible. And so we said okay and we just realized we don't have the information. The experts need to need to figure out what that standard is because right now what North Carolina does is it it sets a limit for turbidity in what are known as surface waters. Those are streams.

Those are lakes. Those are rivers. Anything that's federally controlled by the Clean Waters Act. It's not come what's coming out of a sediment uh uh control pond. What controls that

is a separate state law because the state generally controls sedimentation and then they can delegate power down to uh localities like Durham County has power delegated to it. And if you all recall when Sound Rivers and others pushed for some additional requirements and and more best better best practices a couple years ago, you guys actually had to go to the state and get it approved before you could enact them and enforce them. And so we started talking about that. Number one, we said, "We don't think we can set a limit because we don't know what it would be.

We don't know the standards how we would do it. We're not the experts. " One of the other things that came up was, would we even be able Would we even be able to commit to something that could be enforcable? In other words, this is a question that hearkens back to what two three hearings ago, right? And you know, we always sort of thought, well, maybe we can, maybe we can't. We had been to there had been some back and forth with Sound Rivers or Sound River said, you know, you really should commit to something because if you're not, it's

sort of meaningless. And where we ended up again was, well, we don't want to give a meaningless thing. We want to do something for that's, you know, that actually has teeth to it, which is why we've committed to the 100red-year erosion control 100-year storm design for erosion control ponds. We came tonight, that being said, we came tonight ready to offer a turbidity a a a profer to measure turbidity as part of this.

Not with a limit because we don't know what that limit would be, but I had a profer. We we ran it by staff. Unfortunately, or you know, however you want to see it, uh, when we ran it by staff, staff informed us that the county attorney does not believe that the county can enforce it under state law for the reasons I just outlined that it's delegated power, that currently the state does not regulate turbidity coming out of the pipes, and so there's no state authority to do that.

So, I I say that for what it's worth, recognizing what you guys did a few hearings ago. Um, and so, you know, obviously there may be a discussion there. Um, in terms of the school, so here's the shared property line. Um, there is some discussion that we just heard.

We are going to build a 10- foot wide multi-use path. And I'm running out of time, so I'll try to try to be brief. We were going to build a path. we are going to build a path along the front frontage of this development.

The question was is could we extend it to Neil Middle School? Could kids get to Neil Middle School? We went down the path of trying to figure out how to build a sidewalk. And to answer councelor Cook's question, we basically got told there's not a way to do that at prior to planning commission. There's not a way to do that where any where you know the countyy's not going to maintain it and the city's not going to maintain it. We were not involved in in the discussions that that apparently staff has had, but we do agree in the the um just to the right of that sort of

eastern most red line, sort of if you go down from the baseball diamond, there's a house there. And that's really the issue as I understand it is that there's a house that's very close to property line likely because property got taken in building the road. And as a result, it's really hard to get a 10- foot path past that. And so that's the issue.

That's a practical issue. We've looked at a variety of other things. The part of the problem, frankly, is is that school if if you go off of the roadway, for instance, if you go up into those woods and sort of hang a right onto towards the sheriff's uh there's a sheriff's office there below the baseball diamond. Um you run into encroachments on various properties and you run into issues.

The school doesn't have a plan. And so, we've really run into a point where we just we don't have a lot of options. So, anyway, happy to answer questions. uh but wanted just to run through those things. Thank you. Um I'm going to start online.

The first speaker I have is uh Samantha Crop. Samantha, can you hear me? >> I can hear you. Thank you very much.

>> Welcome. You have three minutes. Thank you. Uh my name is Samantha Crop and I'm speaking tonight in my role as news riverkeeper on behalf of the nonprofit Sound Rivers to voice our strong opposition to the Wake Olive Apartment.

Redeeming Development Group approached Sound Rivers early on seeking input on enhanced protections for water quality. Because this is within an impaired watershed, we expended significant step back time and resources to have these discussions as the developer and its council claimed to understand that additional sediment and erosion control measures were necessary in the sensitive area. But after citing collaboration with our organization at the planning commission meeting to win their support, the developer cut off all communication with our team. Even after numerous attempts on our behalf to reach

out, we received no followup nor explanation for the silence for months. Ultimately, it became clear to Sound Rivers that RDF used our name and credibility to secure approval from Durham Planning with no intent to follow through on its commitment, which we see as a flagrant abuse of trust and deeply concerning for anyone who believes in transparency and accountability in the development process. Specifically, the turbidity sampling that we requested of Redeeming Development Group is not a fringe idea. It is explicitly recommended in the Environmental Protection Agency's 2022 Construction General permit guidelines for developments. It has been adopted statewide in Virginia as a required practice for sensitive wersheds and it is already an active reasonzoning condition in at least one development in Gaston County, North Carolina. Ultimately, this is a sciencebacked practice that offers transparency and

accountability in a watershed very much in need of these things and Durham has the authority to adopt these. The Durham UDO explicitly allows resoning applicants to profer commitments that go beyond baseline requirements and this includes storm water and erosion control measures. Turbidity sampling is a simple low burden step that provides critical transparency and protects public water resources. There is no reason developers in Durham cannot commit to this condition especially in a wed as compromised as this one.

Sound Rivers has worked for years to protect this wershed. We believe we are doing our part, but we do need your support to ensure responsible development and prevent further harm. I will note that we have stated numerous times in writing that we would be very grateful to see a commitment to simply sample the eth coming out of the sediment basins for the sake of transparency with no commitment to really do anything even if

the water is very dirty. Now, you know, ideally we would like to see actions taken, but simply being transparent and providing this much needed data for the city of Durham would be a major step in this watershed. >> So, we would like to see Durham not reward developers who break trust. >> Thank you.

The next speaker I have online is Katie Ross. M Ross, can you hear me? >> Yes. Can you hear me?

>> Yes. Welcome. You have three minutes. >> Okay, I'll be quick. I just wanted to remind the council that the state office of budget and management projected that from the years 2020 to 2050, uh, Durham would need between 60,000 and 66,000 new housing units to accommodate any increase in population. um counting uh units already built since

2020 uh under construction and already approved by yourself or by um administratively within the planning department. Uh the entire 66,000 units um that were projected to be needed over 30 years has already been uh accommodated. Uh there is no urgency here. And also the uh I think you should consider maybe have some experts come in and talk about the changing economic condition that maybe all that influx of population isn't going to be coming because a lot of the jobs that were going to be here are not here thanks to um well thanks to our federal government.

So anyway that's all I have to say. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Now I will move to our in-person speakers. I'm going to call everyone up and you determine your order.

Donna Standback, Pam Andrews, Tina Mley Pearson, Tammy Sua, and Wanda Allen. Good evening. My name is Pamela Andrews, Wake Forest Highway. There were a number of environmental monitoring commitments promised to the planning commission to work with Sound Rivers, like sampling

the affluent, which the state of Virginia requires and the EPA highly recommends. Here's the document from the state of Virginia. Using sediment bags is also suggested seating in shorter time periods. Reducing imperous surface to less than 50%.

All buffers should be undisturbed around these creeks and the wetlands. Other issues are that is not a 15-minute neighborhood. There's no continuous sidewalk, folks. Pedestrian crossings.

Will these actually even exist? No Durham or NC DOT improvements are planned in this area. maintaining the proper RB zoning and infrastructure just does not meet the demand there. 270.

25% we checked. Over 166 accidents have occurred in this short intersection in the last five years. Traffic increased out here in 2021 to 2023 17%.

Normal growth is 3% or less. Committing to no blasting. Our family's home place is 400 feet away from this. Next, establish strict environmental monitoring, which the EPA recommends in Virginia requires as promised.

Sample dewatering influent as promised. Construct erosion control bases for temporary and permanent ponds, which he agreed to. That's wonderful. As promised at planning.

We are in a sediment pollution crisis. Mass grading, blasting, inadequate erosion control is causing sediment pollution in our most vulnerable environmental sensitive areas. The creek and the wetlands on this site should be protected using stricter standards reached in the recent lawsuit agreement. Present standards are just not enough. Next, Wake Olive needs to adhere to the added measures reached in the home settlement so history doesn't repeat itself. Stop sediment pollution by stabilizing exposed soils

and using stricter erosion and sediment control measures. Higher impervious surfaces equals more sediment pollution. Next, sediment is the leading cause of water pollution in the state. The effects of sediment pollution can persist in stream beds long after the construction stops.

The destruction of habitat can affect water quality, aquatic life, and wildlife long term. If Virginia can require this and can do this and Gastonia can do this. The EPA recommends it, then so can we. We passed an amendment tonight for some beautiful people.

We can do better for Durham, folks. And I'm just going to say this parcel was originally purchased by my mother and my aunts to help build a sanctuary, and it never came to fruition. It has special meaning to me. I just want to see the land used wisely. Thank you for your time. Hi, I'm Wanda Allen and my name is and

my address is on record. You'll see here slide number six. We need this project to be limited to no more than 50% in purpose surface. 5 exceeds what the wershed can handle and should not be warranted.

The level of imperous surface will worsen the flooding, erosion, and water quality problems already existing in this area. Imperfect surfaces, roofs, roads, and parking lots. Don't let the rain waters soak in. That means more runoff, more settlement, and more pollution in our creeks and lakes. By contrast, pace land such as forest and grass absorbs the rainforest and replenishes the groundwater and releases water slowly in back into the

stream. This 12 acre project needs 50% cap to prevent additional downstream damage. The plan, the plan that is presented tonight says there will be no building in the buffer, but that's already a law, you guys. There are 1,845 feet of wetland and creek on this property.

This plan still allows construction ponds and grading when those within those buffers, which is where the real damage starts. We're asking for clear commitment of zero disturbance within these environmental sensitive areas. No construction ponds, no tree removal, no storm water devices, and no utilities. That's how we protect our creeks and our taxpayers from costly

further cleanup. Finally, this resoning increases density within an infrastructure that has not been provided. There is a reason this area was zoned rural residential. Changing it to RB increases the imperfect surfaces and strain on the schools, roads, and the environment.

8% of Durham County remains zon RB. Each up zoning erases how low impact lands and adds long-term cost. long-term costs that we as the taxpayers are paying. Please follow the adopted plan and evaluate the cumulative impact, the cumulative impact and protect our environment.

Um, good evening. My name is Tina Montley Pearson and my address is on file. The comprehensive plan is not being met for this development. Three out of 29 selected policies do not meet the comprehensive plan and seven out of 29 comprehensive plan policies identified by planning will be met at site plan.

Therefore, they're automatically given credit. Current and future irreversible environmental impacts must be thoroughly assessed for this area. In its current configuration, the proposed neighborhood would exist in isolation and fail to provide adequate connectivity to nearby public open spaces, parks, or other communal areas. This lack of integration could negatively affect both ecological continuity and community accessibility.

This development is not within a 15minute safe walkable distance of stores, jobs, or businesses. No parks. There are no proposed continuous sidewalks or bike lanes in the area. The

site is not contiguous. This does not fit in with the existing community character. There are no walkable businesses in the area. The nearest transit route is two miles west.

This is car centric on an already overcapacity highway. And if you add it all together, this development is just another example of urban sprawl. Slide. There is no pedestrian crosswalk.

Will NC do DOT or the city approve this? Why it and and this hasn't been verified. There's no proposed pedestrian signal at the intersection either. 7 miles away.

Slide. There are no committed continuous sidewalks to amenities, churches, or school from the apartments. NC98 Sharon Road does not meet ADA requirements. bike and ped wanted a highly visible crosswalk with push button pedestrian signals on both sides of this intersection. Is the developer going to

commit to that? Um slide. Actually, I'm just going to go to the end because that's an important the last one I'm going to do. Okay.

So, let me draw your attention to the red circle drawn on Southeast Durham in this graphic. In this area, there are over 20,000 new dwelling units approved. This is an additional 46,400 people, which is the population of Wilson added to this one area, and it doesn't even include the existing population. There's 68 subdivisions under construction or built out in the last four years in these four creek basins. Since 2020, there have been over 22,000 dwellings approved, 5,600 acres resoned, over 51,000 additional residents, and over 178,000 additional vehicles per day. We are busting at the

seams. Enough is enough. Thank you. Good evening.

I'm Donna Stainback. My address is on file. We are already having crashes near Wake Olive between the intersections of NC98 and Sharon Road at Neil Middle School. We've had 166 within 5 years in 7/10 of a mile.

the traffic congestion congestion accidents have increased significantly and can double with the increased population that is under construction and or that has been approved. Um, next slide. out of the 12-hour day, we have heavy congestion and significant delays as uh on these graphs that show the red line going from one end to the other. And um

5 hours of the day out of those 12 we have that. And um the morning peak hour traffic per the NC do is from 7:30 to 9. The star on these um charts or slides are the Wake Olive apartment and they are right there at the Olive Branch Road entrance. So um all these um diagrams show how bad it is.

it. We have 7 miles per hour in these uh areas and in um the current level of service for two of the nearby intersections is level F. What is you know all these increases will just put us way over the top already. And then in the afternoon, the um peak uh hour traffic is

m. per the NC DOT. I have actually monitored and a couple of the other members last week. My first job was a traffic counter, so I'm familiar with how you do this and show I hope these um slides tell the story.

Um, we request our Durham leaders to push for improvements to 98 with the situation the way it is now. We are over capacity already. Part of it was caused by the new school that uh charter school that got approved right up at Kent Road and that's where some of the red ends for,250 students and they're at capacity. So that didn't even go through any planning per se pro uh process.

Now if you'll look uh the Thank you. Uh the apartment vacancy rate for Durham now is at 12%. That's per Lee and Associates. The Lick and Little Creek

basins are dense with 49 dense developments under construction per the red dots and the yellow rectangles are the apartments. Uh 22 more are approved and pending construction. 44% are t town town homes and 22% are apartments. >> Thank >> thank you.

>> Those all of my speakers. Mr. applicant, would you like to Oh. Oh, I'm so sorry.

>> Okay. >> You were you were stuck on the slide row tonight. So that's right. Go ahead.

>> Yeah. Tammy Sua. Um, my address is on file. Um, we I want to reiterate, we want no commit to blasting.

Triid basin soil is different. 3 miles away. In the last two months at the utility uh

that they're making at uh Camp Road, there was a blast that was felt less than one and a half miles away. blasting in in traffic basin soil is different. So, we don't we don't want any um blasting. Um the emergency services in southeast Durham are not adequate.

Um I know the policy 119 says that no new developments and then the urban growth boundary should be established unless unless there's uh sufficient emergency services. Well, I live out there. I know your your data may show something, but the people that live out there, it's not adequate. Station 8 does not have a ladder truck. 0 when it's approved. There's new no new fire stations approved or in the capital improvement plan for Southeast Durham.

So, I'm going to give you some examples of some recent just the last few weeks of some issues in Durham. Uh there was a fire at North Middle Springs Road. Um and you'll see there were like uh nine units that had to respond. There was two ladder trucks, station 17 and station two that was needed.

And I want to point out to the bottom uh picture here that the fireman had to put a ladder to go up to the um to the roof and that puts our firefighters at risk. The family lost everything here um if we had more adequate ladder trucks and and fire people would have been a different outcome. Also want to point out, even though this is at Northern High School, that there was um a situation where a student was figning in and out of consciousness and there was no EMS responders available and there was three requests from law officers from help. I mean, we've got a EMS crisis here in Durham.

68 68 miles away. Um the time it took for the police to respond to this breakin was 17 minutes. There's no new place stations planned. We've got 51,000 more new residents coming here.

We're at a crisis here. Public safety. Just think about the cumulative impact. And I appre and I appreciate your time.

>> Thank you so much. Those are all the speakers I have. Uh Mr. applicant.

Do you have any response to anything you heard? >> Just a couple of items. Um again, um we came prepared uh to offer a turbidity uh condition um similar to what was outlined by Miss Crop U but we're told

by again that the county attorney said it wasn't enforceable. Uh again, you know, that may be something to be discussed by council. Um the um we are providing crosswalks on both sides of Olive Branch Road. That's in the text commitments.

We are um we did reduce what could be put within the sort of green space area, the area where there's no construction. The only things that can be put there under the current conditions are uh greenway trails and storm water conveyances. So, not ponds, just conveyances. So, the retaining walls, everything else.

Um, you know, that that's not that that is not consistent with what's currently in front of me. So, just wanted to add those two things. >> Thank you. All right, those are all my um speakers. I'll now declare the public hearing closed and back before the council. You know what, Council Member Freeman, I'm going to start to my right tonight.

I'll give you a break. Council Mood, >> I was just going to ask if um Miss Crook could be made available. Um I was trying to hear the last part of her comment before she was cut off. >> Hello, >> Miss Crumb.

Uh you were you were you were saying hold on, I'm going back to my note. Um you were talking about sample of effluency and and then I think you got cut off in a compromised watershed. Yeah. >> Um sure to elaborate just a little bit. Um there are pretty robust guidelines laid out by the Environmental Protection Agency and their 2022 construction general permit which includes the methodology of doing the turbidity sampling of the discharge coming out of

sediment basins. It also includes um a a few options for what they're calling benchmarks. So numbers that would um indicate that the turbidity is too high. And so those benchmarks are not 50 um as the applicant has stated that is a surface water standard for public waterways.

Um the EPA provides a range which include 150 as an option. Um but again there's options there. Um I was also stating that I had articulated that it would simply be sufficient in our eyes to just do the sampling. um as a matter of transparency, it would also benefit the city of Durham to have that data to show what's coming out of these pipes and getting into surface waterways.

Um that would be incredibly useful. And finally, um we did offer to contract with the developer to do that sampling for them um as a third alternative. So none of those options were um taken up by the developer. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. And and I

just had a question for staff, I guess. In an annexation such as this one being presented this evening, is it customary to rely on the county if we're if if the plan is to annex into the city? >> Sure. Uh great question.

Um it really depends on the context of the profers that are made within the development plan. Um so one of the things that we look at uh one of the first questions is whether or not um a commitment is enforcable and part of that question goes into who does that and so this question uh lies with storm water storm water and erosion control that's within the county. So that's how they are involved with that question. >> And I know we have a special guest here who could answer my next question. Miss Wolf, if you'd mind. Um, just help

me out. Help me understand nor the city of Nora County have a regulation in place around tubidity and how would how would Gastonia and Virginia both have it and what would need to be the steps we take to get to it. That's it. >> Michelle will folk with uh environmental and street services.

Um, so the city doesn't have standards. The state has standards and the state does have a turbidity standard that applies to all waters of the state of North Carolina. So that does exist. Um, the turbidity standard is is a little different than probably Virginia's is, although I haven't gone to look it up. Um, North Carolina's standard has is two parts. It's a numeric standard that says that turbidity shall not exceed 50 NTUs

was what he was looking for. Um that's how turbidity is measured in NTUs. Um and then there's a narrative part to that standard. So the narrative is where it usually gets caught up into um it gets caught up and and it's not necessarily enforceable.

So the narrative standard has two parts to it. One of it says that turbidity shall not be increased over background turbidity. There is no definition of what background turbidity is and state agencies and local governments have run around circles on that for most of my career. Um the second half of that is that if the um if the site that's under construction is meeting all of the requirements of their erosion and sentiment control plan which is what this the county issues then they are not deemed to be out of compliance period. It doesn't matter what's happening in the stream. So there's that

standard is just very difficult to enforce against. Um it's very easy to measure. It's just very difficult to enforce against. >> Okay.

And so if the city were to identify the background standard as the effluent, would that fit for this scenario? So the city doesn't have authority to set standards. We can set benchmarks. >> Okay.

>> We couldn't enforce against that though. >> But if they set a benchmark and the testing or the monitoring was just kind of data and if the benchmark was above it, they would report. Is is that something that your office could receive? That's a good question.

I think I would throw that to the attorney's office and to the manager. Um I'm not sure. >> And mainly if it were over the 50

essentially the 50. >> So the 50 would be in the stream though. >> Okay. In the stream >> if it's coming out of the pipe, which is what um the news river keeper Samantha Crop was describing, that doesn't have a number.

>> So if it was 150, >> so if we use 150 as a benchmark, I mean, I I don't know if we could I suppose we could receive it. I don't know that we would do anything other than put it in a file. >> Exactly. That's all.

Okay. Thank you. >> Right. Council member Bris.

>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um, once again, thanks to the the folks from Preserve Durham. You are so dedicated.

Come out here all the time. I'm trying to think of a name for you all. not the dynamic deal and not the magnificent seven, but the you the fantastic five or whatever. Thank you.

And we understand your concerns about development pressures in your area and some of the concerns about environmental impacts. We hear that um every time I appreciate you're sharing that. Um I also want to thank St. I want to thank Michelle Wolfick who is like my

go-to expert on all things water related. Michelle and I are going to be up 9:30 tomorrow morning with you and our BA talking about rules. So like it seems like water all the time. Um I just had a So just a couple comments.

So, I app I do appreciate the applicant coming back after the earlier hearing when we said we want to see commercial. We appreciate you coming back with commercial. That's We appreciate that um change. We also appreciate the 6% affordable.

We need more. We talked about this tonight, more affordable housing. So, appreciate that. Um do appreciate you also treating this to the water.

You've added this sort of like not only 100red-year storm post construction but also during construction. Appreciate that. And also there's a green certification piece. I think all good.

I just have two concerns and questions. So the first one we heard heard concerns about walkability. So is there if you you come up. So is I know you've looked at all the different angles here around like seems like along the frontage doesn't work but is there is there an option here to make that connection to Neil Middle School if the school were to be uh amendable to that? Is that something you've considered and

can um >> we did. So there uh when if you look at uh the sort of eastern panhandle of this property again, it sort of goes up into some woods and it could theoretically somebody on the bike and ped uh committee sort of literally just drew with pen a, you know, here's a potential path that could happen. >> Those are my crazy colleagues on BPAC. They're always together.

They're always Yeah. Um, and so we we took a look at that. Uh, and we talked with with schools about that and I know staff has as well. And you know, basically where it comes out is here is um, as I said, schools don't have a plan.

They don't know where that path could be or even if that path could be built. As I said, there's some encroachment from a neighboring property, some stuff going onto the school property, the sher the the driveway where you'd probably want there's a fence on the north of the of the sheriff's office. There's a driveway where maybe you could run a path, but it looks like it may encroach on some adjoining property. It's a lot of

complications. So, we couldn't build because there's no plan to build on the school property and we just don't we don't know what it is. We don't know what we committing to. you know, if again, you know, we did consider and talk about, you know, could there be an easement that's profered and, you know, if that's something that that council was wants to consider?

Yeah, I mean, we could I could I could read out I could offer up a profer for a for an easement. Um you know basically what that would be would be a um a uh you know basically what we propose is you know prior to issuance of first certificate of occupancy property owner would grant a 30foot pedestrian easement to provide a pedestrian connection between the 10-ft shared path on the north side of nc98 and the property shared lot line with Neil Middle School. Um and um that the easement would be consented to by Durham

Public Schools Administration and but unless in cons consented to by the property owner, the easement shall be located no more than 100 ft from the property shared lot line with 5337 Wake Forest Highway, which is the property immediately to the east. The idea there is that we don't want it going too far over. That doesn't make any sense for the school. It also doesn't make any sense, frankly, for the for the developer.

This is the portion of of where there would be the seizement is not is currently going to be tree conservation area. So this would be an area that isn't going to be developed otherwise. >> So we appreciate that. Hopes did st want to make sure staff got has that language.

Appreciate that profer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Staff has the language >> for that one.

Oh, good. Good. Thank you. Appreciate that.

So then the second thing is about this issue of the the sampling the water. So I I know that I know there's been a lot of conversations about that. Appreciate Samantha Crop's concerns on on her end from Sound Rivers. So it sounds like it sounds like

what and again you've done the hundred-year storm post construction also during construction. It sounds like Sound Rivers from what I heard from Miss Crop's comments is like they'd be grateful just for a commitment to sampling simply. And so I know that and I know that the county has said like we can't enforce a proper to sample. Um but as you referenced earlier, we we've had an earlier hearing about doing things that we can't always enforce, but having those sort of on the books.

So I'm just curious whether you'd be willing to commit to some kind of sampling, even though we know we can't enforce it. We know that happens sometimes as a way to to demonstrate both good faith but also to build the base of knowledge that we have about about water coming from sediment basins being discharged. So >> Sure. So, two things.

First, um I want to make sure because in some jurisdictions you literally if staff says you can't, you can't. I just want to make sure I'm double check with staff. I can make this profiter even though the county is concerned it's not enforceable. I don't want to do anything that's >> right, you know, off the reservation

here. >> Everything is >> I will just put on the record >> everything I do. Sarah Young with the planning development department um that if the profer is made and the county still feels uncomfortable um it would just not be enforceable. >> Okay.

I just wanted to make sure on that. Um so I do have a profer you know again we we came ready actually to go ahead and offer this and then this this issue came up at the last minute. Um so >> can you speak a little clearer into your mic? >> Yeah I'm sorry.

Thank you. >> Hopefully this helps. Um >> the um one thing I want to I'll read out the proper in a second. One one thing I want to make clear because it wasn't clear to me frankly until I started asking a lot of questions from the county storm water folks. So as I understand it and I am sure that there's people who can correct me if I get anything wrong. The way that storm water and this is in the UDO, the way the erosion control works is that there is a monthly or so inspection by

the county and what they look at they they look around the site. What they look at is what are known as self inspections. So there's a record of self inspections that are done according to the UDO on on a certain basis and those self inspections are maintained by the site, maintained by the developer and that's where you know they're going around and looking at everything and that's really in my conversations with the county. that seemed to be the place where we would put that information if we're going to put it anywhere because there's not a document currently that the county collect that you send in that you say I've done this sample or I've done this thing I'm going to send it over and so just for that context that's why we've done what we've done so here's the profer and again I've I have sent this to staff a measurement of turbidity shall be taken at the outflow of each sediment basin or trap within one week of any sedimentation and erosion control self inspection the turbidity measure Measurement results shall be included in the self- inspection documentation once such results become available consistent

with applicable state rules. Compliance with any surface water turbidity standards established by the state shall be deemed met when work on the property is consistent with the approved sedimentation and erosion control plan. So again that last sentence is really just consistent with with what the state law says or state regulations say. And I put in that sort of um buffer around the week.

I don't as I understand it a lot of the self- inspection is done by somebody on site. The turbidity testing as I understand it would be done by sort of a third party contractor. That's why I wanted to provide some uh leeway there. And I don't know I frankly don't know how long it takes to get these results.

It may be immediate. It may not be. So that's why I wanted to put you know we'll we'll put it in the self-reports once it becomes available. And again it's just there's there's not any examples to go by.

I mean, there's this one, you know, again, we talked with Samantha. Samantha gave us some information from Virginia. There's an EPA construction book in trying to write

zoning conditions. We didn't see a whole lot of examples. So, we're we're working a little bit from a blank blank page here. >> I appreciate that.

Again, I want to make sure staff have record of that. Okay, that's good. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I we've asked a lot of you. I appreciate the you've been willing to sort of um flex this and sort of respond to the concerns. So I I I really appreciate that. I think this is a to me this is yeah this is a this is the kind of thing we do endure.

We sort of like we find ways to to um meet the the cons concerns of residents that around a whole range of issues and and to meet our goals for housing and and so forth. So I really appreciate this. I'll be supporting this project. Thank you.

>> And just following up, did you have anything in your folder about blasting? >> We don't. I Yeah. So on blasting um the issue is just we haven't done the the geotechnical work to know. Um however, you know, as as we've told um the neighbors, the way that this site uh falls, the expectation is it's actually

going to be what's known as a fill site and not a removal site. And so as a result, it's less likely there will be blasting just because, you know, there it's going to be more adding dirt. But again, we haven't done enough to to know whether there will be blasting. So we just aren't able to commit to say no absolutely no plastic >> and would that fill be for a different type of soil than the triacics like clay?

>> I mean you have to I'll let David talk to the the soils issue. >> Um David I'm with the uh with the developer. I I'm sorry I didn't catch the question. >> The fill that you would use would it be >> Oh uh yeah it wouldn't be I mean yeah it wouldn't be Turassic.

It would be like, you know, it would get tested by a third party um as we fill and compact every set number of inches. So, it wouldn't be the kind of plasticky sort of clay that you get sometimes out here. >> Okay. >> Yeah.

>> Council member, >> thank you. Um yeah, come forward with that binder or the folder. Love to see it. Okay.

I want to follow up on a few things that were um asked about in the planning commission. Um, and I want to thank my colleagues because the turbidity piece was on my list as well. Um, you were asked about a commitment to minimum commercial. Are y'all able to make a commitment to that amount tonight?

I could sort of answer. Yeah. I mean, I we didn't contemplate a minimum. The plan has always been to do it and we worked with site plans that sort of realized the yield around 10,000 square feet. Um it's tough to commit to a minimum without really knowing the future user. So, the idea was to just preserve that front part of the parcel for commercial, but there wasn't like a

minimum necessarily contemplated. >> Yeah. I mean, I it just it feels like y'all spent all this time to come back before us with this commercial piece, which feels really important, but the only thing you've given us is a maximum. So, technically 0% would still be within what you've provided.

So, I just want to make sure that we know that we're going to get commercial. >> Okay. >> So, is there some way that you'all can make a commitment to that? Do you think I'm wrong about this? >> Uh, I mean I can't I mean I can think of I could throw out a square footage number if that's sort of what you're after or are you sort of thinking Did you have something else in mind >> and that's fine or if you want to just say like there will be some some commercial and we have a maximum but we are committed to having some commercial. Yeah, I think we'd be we'd be fine

saying something, you know, I I don't have language, obviously. Um, but I think we'd be fine committing to there being a commercial component to it. Um, if you're comfortable with that, I think we're comfortable getting our our sort of heads around that. >> How do we feel, friends?

>> We would need some quantifiable measure, okay, >> of the uh non-commercial space in order to have a minimum. >> Okay. Do you need any other any language other than that? Just some kind of minimal number.

Yeah, you can either combine it with your text commitment that states the maximum sort of or do a separate commitment for a minimum amount of non-commercial uses. >> Yeah, understood. Okay. >> And we can work it work we can work with you on that.

>> Okay. >> That language. >> But the the number would need to be committed tonight. >> Do you all want to work on that?

I have more questions. If you want to think, >> why don't you go ahead with questions and David will work on that. >> Um, okay. There was a question about um

and I I know y'all answered that you had maybe run all of the scenarios, but there was a a question about what it would look like to have 30% tree coverage. Um, and um, and I'm curious if y'all looked into that. And I feel like >> not no. >> Okay.

I the the reason I'm asking this question is that I feel like we've got we've got this traffic modification and we've got the height limitations um which feel like they're sort of decreasing density or or I guess they're like in they're forcing a little bit more sprawl, right? As opposed to having more tree coverage and higher buildings. And so I just want to ask again if y'all are interested in increasing the tree coverage. I understand the reasons for the rest of it, but it does feel like we've been sort of handicapped a little bit into into low density at this point.

Um but also lesser environmental protections. You see what I'm saying? I do to a point. I mean I I the the

the money side of it is this that if you know when you build up um you know costs go higher you need more structured parking and so that's a lot of the uh reason why we have not looked at 30% is because it would be more difficult to fit the needed surface parking on the site and things like that. Um and again with things like the uh you know an easement a potential uh while that's a small thing you know all those little little sort of additional items of impervious surface like a future greenway on the eastern portion where we're going to put tree conservation area um that you know you have limit you know you take out a small piece that impacts you know tree conservation area overall. So I think that is not something we'd be able to do at this point. >> Okay. Um, in the future, I feel like in these environmentally sensitive areas, the lessening of the footprint feels like the thing to do. And, and I think

where it's interesting kind of I think where a lot of us sort of combine up here is that we are looking for density. And I feel like we're getting locked into this like sort of low to mid density developments. Um, so it's just something to think about as y'all are looking in this specifically in this area of like minimizing the footprint but also increasing the density so that we don't just have this sprawl. Um, and then I think that the units are all going to be for rent.

Is that still >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, have y'all considered at any point in time in any other projects or this one having any sort of co-management for rental units? >> I'm not I'm not sure I follow what when you say that >> to have any any sort of tenant managed units as opposed to having a rental company. I I mean that is not you know generally who owns the property is different is

you know may not be the same people that entitle the property. So it's um and there's some limits on um things like ownership structure. So I'm not like you know you can't regulate for in zoning you can't regulate for instance for rent or you know ownership. So, I don't know if I've never thought about whether the management structure of an apartment could be regulated by zoning.

I don't know if >> it could be. Yeah. In the same way that you could regulate the affordability. Um, so anyway, just something to >> That's a different question and I'm not sure it's legal either.

>> Just something to Okay. Well, covenants run. Oh, whatever. We don't have to get into a legal debate.

I've already had enough of those tonight. Um just something to think about in the future. >> Understood. >> Um and then when you have that number, willing to hear it.

Thanks. >> Yeah, we were we were laying out the parcels at like 2500 square f feet. Um so we could commit to 2500 um minimum square footage of commercial, but maximum of 10 if that works for staff.

>> We we have that. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Thank you.

Council member Baker. >> Good morning, everyone. >> Have we crossed that line? >> Yes.

>> Oh, man. >> Half an hour ago. >> About 30 minutes ago. There we go.

>> Oh, wow. >> I'll note that uh two of our four cases tonight uh were originally rejected and have come back and are better than when they originally came to us. And I think that's important. I've got one I've got a couple questions u actually for staff.

Um, do you have readily available just kind of high level the some of the key differences between the original case and this case? >> Yeah. The main thing is there were a few more apartment units and no commercial component whatsoever. Um, this one can say that again, Mr.

Lester. >> Yeah, sorry. the the two main components or the two main differences is the one a

couple years ago was a completely apartment um proposal no non-commercial uses um this one has I don't know the exact number but there are reduced number of units for apartments um but the range of actually the range of uses is expanded in terms of housing type uh the other main thing is the commercial component which pretty much made this consistent with the mun place type. So, and then there's some of the graphite commitments didn't come over to the textual development plan. Um, but those were minor in my opinion. Thank you.

Yeah. Um, appreciate that. Uh, and I appreciate the the uh commitment to a minimum commercial um 2500. Um,

can you uh staff can can you all confirm that there will be that the block length requirements or connectivity requirements in the unified development ordinance will be applicable to this case? >> Correct. Yeah. There will be a western stubout required based on the intensity of the PDR district and the fact that that western parcel uh to this site is undeveloped.

So they'll have to put a step out at least one >> in accordance with the >> uh in accordance with the connectivity standard >> connectivity requirements. Okay. And the block length. Okay.

Awesome. And then um regarding the uh connection to the school at this point because there there's a lot of connection there's a lot of abuing to to the prop the school property. Um the only connection at this point is a potential access easement. >> Yeah. Um again because we just don't

know if and when the school would would do this. We we literally brought this to the school. This was something um you know one of the differences frankly was that that this was this has been sort of a point of conversation. I think this time around we spent a lot more time trying to get the school to to really think the school system to really think through it and they they've been a good partner um with us on that.

But, you know, we really focused initially on on the sidewalk option in part because and I that I don't have my presentation up, but in part because when we were initially looking at this, we were looking more at how would you build a path not from the multi-use path, but rather from the development over to the school. And ultimately that was rejected because it was coming in basically in the back of the school property. Um, and um, I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but it's a middle school. Like, you know, a path going

into the woods out of the back of a field is probably not the greatest idea. >> So, >> um, I get that. I it is a very large property apartment um with a lot of uh uh the parcel abudding a school and no way to get from the all of this land to to the schools. Um to to staff to the plan department.

Did you all have any conversations with um the school district about potential connections? >> Sure. Um the main I guess dialogue was between the applicant and Durham public schools. Um we provided um potential language if if any agreement could be done for a passageway between the two.

Um but that was sort of the extent of you know our role in that. >> Yeah. I see like one of one of the great

opportunities here is you know amidst And this is in the context of all of Southeast Durham, which I'm extremely concerned about and I see as a major failure um and lack of planning in Southeast Durham that has gotten us to this point with enormous cumulative impacts and uh perhaps our city's greatest environmental um catastrophe. In that context, um we do have still parcel by parcel kind of cases coming forward. And I see an asset of this one or potential benefit of this one is that it is directly next to a school and here we are and there's no connection to the school. Um I see huge opportunity apartments next to a school and there's no connection to the school. Um so I see that as as concerning. Um, and then I do just want to say I do want to uh speak to the issue with with Sound Rivers and just the communication with

Sound Rivers and the frustration that that um that that nonprofit, very respected environmental nonprofit that recently settled a lawsuit in in in the area with the developer to address on-site issues as well as get the developer to buy uh property offsite to protect the the watershed and does a lot of really critical work in that area and their frustration with with the communication. Um that that's that's um disappointing. And at the same time, uh these two commitments that were made tonight are extremely important. Um they're they're big.

Um what what you just committed to tonight. Um I wish they we could have seen them earlier, but also I don't think we have seen these these two commitments together. And um I hope that we can expect that from from future developers. So I do want to say kudos on on those uh those two commitments tonight. Those are those are really important. Um so uh

appreciate uh the improvements that we've seen to this case. Um, for me, as Southeast Durham has seen the enormous amount of annexations and resoning cases uh, and development over the past several years, our need for better planning to make up for what has happened out there uh, grows. Um, and the the for me the floor uh, grows as well. So, um I do think this is compared to many of the cases that we've seen over the past several years definitely on the better side of the cases that we that we've seen.

Many of my concern some of my concerns still still remain particularly around connections to the school and and a couple other things. So, that's all I have. Thank you. Thank you, Councilman Cavier.

>> I just wanted to say thank you. Um, I was one of the council members who really wanted to see that connection to the school. It made a lot of sense. I understand why there's limitations.

I think that that's I mean, staff has been pretty clear that a lot of the places that we have sidewalk gaps, the reason that we have a sidewalk gap is because it's going to be really hard to build it. Uh, that the easy places are kind of done. Um, so I think that that's essentially what y'all ran into in the idea of burying all those power. I mean, I don't even want to know what the the cost would be to do that.

So I um it it's lamentable but also understandable. Um, and I don't plan on holding it against uh y'all. There was a valiant effort made. Um, and I really appreciate staff for getting into this maintenance side saying that that wasn't what was the limitation because that was something I had asked very clearly.

I was like, well, if it's a maintenance thing, let's just do a swap. I mean, like, we got to figure this out already. Um, so I I do want to appreciate staff for also digging in on that issue. I know that there wasn't resolution, but I

hope that the work done between the city and the county can get us because this has come up before, right? Um, need a little bit of a little piece of a thing. It's going to connect you to something major. It's really going to help.

And and then this kind of running in between city and county and residents don't want to hear it. They just want to walk down the sidewalk. Um, so, uh, I hope that that those lessons learned for city and county staff can be applied to other projects because they certainly come up. Um, I appreciate the piece around the commercial.

Um, you know, sometimes the place type map, you know, we were told when we passed the comprehensive plan, it's not going to get it 100% right because the reasoning is very specific to a site versus what the comp plan does, which is more macro. Um, but it made a lot of sense to me because it is a good distance to Sharon Road. It is a good distance to being able to walk in anything commercial. Um, I drove it today.

Um, I will say I was very pleased to see, you know, that that light at Kemp Road. It is actually improving traffic. Um, and that wouldn't have happened without some of the development

there. Um, and I saw some other road improvements, I guess, around Triple Crown. That was not a case that I voted for, but was happy to see the turnout lanes and some of the other improved infrastructure. So, I I get residents concerns, but I also am seeing some pretty important infrastructure improvements that would not have happened without those development cases, and it is actually making that road safer.

Uh, thank you. That's all. >> Mayor Bro, >> sure. >> I had one more question.

Sorry. >> Um, the 6% is great. Same number as the last time. Are y'all interested in increasing that at all?

>> I think we're going to stay at 6%. I don't think we've >> even E even at like something like 100% afford AMI. >> 100% AMI. >> 100% AMI.

>> I think I think I think they're gonna stick at 6%. I think that's what they've sort of >> Okay. >> figured everything out. >> Do you want to tell us what else is in your folder?

>> What else? That's it. You saw it.

>> Okay. Thank you. >> I've read everything that is in my folder. >> You can All right, thank you all so much.

Um, I am not going to share any comments. Ready to go home. m. All right.

Uh, colleagues, thank you for your your commentary. Um, at this time I will entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance annexing annexing Wake Olive into the city of Durham and to authorize the city managers to enter into a utility extension agreement with Redeeming Development Group LLC. >> So moved. >> Second. >> It's been moved and properly seconded. Madam Cler, please open the vote.

I promise I voted this time. >> There we go. Um, thank you. Please close the vote.

>> The motion passes 5 to two with council members Freeman and Baker voting no. Yep. >> Uh, next I'll entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance amending the unified development ordinance by taking property out of residential rural residential suburban 20 Falls Jordan for wershed overlay district B. 270 false Jordan watershed overlay district B city jurisdiction.

>> So moved. Second. >> It's been moved and properly seconded. Uh, madam clerk, please open the vote. >> Please close the vote.

>> The motion passes 5 to two with council members Baker and Freeman voting no. >> Thank you. And lastly, I'll entertain a motion to adopt a consistency statement as required by North Carolina General Statute section 160D-605. >> So moved.

>> Second. >> Move the public second. Madam clerk, please open the vote. >> One more.

There we go. Please close the vote. Motion passes unanimously. >> Thank you. We uh colleagues are we are adjourned at 12:43.