Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to Durham City Hall, the uh committee room. It's good to see everyone here. Madam clerk, could we please call the role?
>> Mayor Williams, >> I'm here. >> Mayor Promton, >> I'm here. >> Council member Baker >> here. >> Council member Cababayo >> here.
>> Council member Cook >> here. >> Council member Freeman received an excused absence Monday evening. And council member wrist, >> I'm here. >> Thank you.
>> All right. I'm going to lead by example and uh request if you have announcements uh you know let's try and be brief. We have a rather dense agenda today. Um I will not be sharing announcements today.
All right. I will start to my left. Council member, Mr. Baker.
>> Yeah. Uh unfortunately I I have to leave in an hour and a half. So I'll be out of here around 2:30 and drive to Atlanta. >> You're going to miss the fun stuff.
No, other than good afternoon everyone. Good to see you. >> Thanks, Mr. Mayor.
Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for being here. Um staff as well. Um just just two quick things.
I want to thank everyone who voted on Tuesday. It was a big big part of our democracy is voting in the primary. Hope you'll do the same in the general election coming up. Thanks for being engaged in our democracy.
Second thing is this is actually a big one. Um, I'm gonna request an absence from the October 23rd work session. My first son is getting married. So, yeah, >> big moment.
Yeah. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. Yeah.
>> And where is he getting married? >> Uh, in near near Los Angeles. >> Okay. >> California.
Yeah. Long trip, but it'll be >> Yeah. I'll be actually joining you after the work session. I'll be in Los Angeles.
All right. Came. >> Good afternoon, everyone. No announcements.
>> Thank you. All right. Let's get to work. We need do we need a vote or is that like do we need a vote on that or >> Oh, yeah.
Actually, um yeah, this the next meeting. Um >> I'll make the motion. >> Thank you. >> Excuse been moved and probably seconded
to provide an excused absence for council member R. All in favor? >> I. >> All oppose.
>> Thank you, colleagues. >> Thank you. Congratulations to the family. >> Big moment.
Yeah. >> Yeah. All right. Hold up one second.
All right. There we go. All right. We'll now go to the manager for priority items.
>> Thank you, mayor, mayor Pat, members of council. Good to be with you this afternoon. We do have a very full agenda. Excited to put a number of important projects before you.
Uh the following are my priority items. For agenda item number nine, the Durham Rail Trail project design, update, and professional services contract amendment with the John Armadams Company Incorporated. There is a presentation that will be made during today's work session. For agenda item number 15, the amended and restated loan agreement was help ventures fund Durham affordable housing loan fund. Revisions have been made to attachment number one uh to further explain differences between the current and proposed terms for the loan agreement. For agenda item number 16, that's the contract with Cororum Houses LLC for administration of the affordable
accessory dwelling unit ADU loan pilot program. There is a presentation that will be made today. And then finally for agenda item number 26, citizen matters, a response memo from the police department is in your packet. Those are my priority items.
>> Thank you. Um, Adam, Mr. Attorney, >> good afternoon. Uh, Mayor Williams and Mayor Prom Middleton and council members, uh, senior deputy city attorney Fred Lamar sitting in for the city attorney Kim Rayberg.
Um, I do have a priority item. Um, however, before I, uh, bring that up, I'd like to, as a, as a matter of professional privilege, introduce a new, um, attorney to our office, and that is, um, Kendall Carter. if you could stand up. So, um she's the newest member of the city attorney's office. She's an associate city attorney and she started September 22nd. Kendall grew up in Richmond, Virginia, attended college at William Mary where she majored in history and minored in
English. Um she has prior experience in the legal field as a parallegal and legal assistant working for law firms in Washington DC um for a period of about four years before and subsequent to that she uh attended Wake Forest University Law School. So after graduating from law school, um she sat for the North Carolina bar and spent uh the past year clerking for two judges on the circuit court of the city of Virginia, I'm sorry, the city of Richmond in Virginia. Kendall and her husband and dog Finch, that's what it says, are uh excited to return North Carolina, and we're thrilled to have her as a colleague. Thank you. [Applause] And as as to the uh prior priority item that we have, it's rare that we do have a contract prior priority item, but in this case, we do have item number six, which is the uh um Justice Matters uh contract for $250,000.
We've been asked by Justed Matters to have that approved as soon as possible because their um they've lost different funding sources and they um uh would appreciate the contract being in place as soon as possible so that they can start invoicing Thank you. the uh the city. So, I'm going to ask that if you uh to have the rules suspended and for you to vote on that item. Um uh that's that's that's all I have.
>> Thank you. And we can um we can address that now. Um >> I'll entertain a motion to suspend the rules. >> Second.
>> It's been moved and properly seconded to suspend the rules. All in favor? >> I >> I All right. >> What uh what number was that? I'll now uh entertain a motion to authorize the city manager to execute the fiscal year 26 grant agreement for the immigration legal defense project
with Justice Matters Incorporated in an amount not to exceed $250,000. >> So moved. >> Second. >> It's been moved and probably seconded.
All in favor? I. >> All oppose? Mr.
Mayor, as as is my custom, I just want to note for the record, I do have a family member that works for this organization. However, no financial benefit occurs to my personal household. Just want to let that be known. Thank you.
>> Thank you. And thank you, colleagues, uh, for just standing on our values um, despite the political climate out of Washington. >> All right. Did that conclude your priority items, Mr.
Attorney? >> Yes, Mr. Mayor. Thank you very much.
Thank you. And welcome Kendall. Dorm looks good on you. >> All right.
Um and Madame Clerk. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I have the board committee commission and task force report.
The mayor's Hispanic Latino committee appointment. Council has nominated Angie M. Santiago for the participatory budgeting steering
committee appointment. The atlarge category council has nominated Danny R. Love for the Durham Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Commission appointment. The atlarge category is Kayla Keels and the NCCU liaison is Nathan B.
Dixon. The Durham Convention and Visitors Bureau Discover Durham mayoral appointment is Crystal E. Taylor. And then finally, the Durham Convention and Visitors Bureau Discover Durham joint city county representative appointment is John V.
Brown Jr. and this will also be brought to the joint city county next week. >> Okay. Just just a quick question about that.
Is that our process to approve here and then present to the joint city county or is it is it because he's been voted on twice? >> Right. Actually, um Ashley, do you want to Okay. Yeah, I'll I'll defer to Ashley Adams about this question. >> Hi, Ashley.
Hello, Mayor Williams, Mayor Pro Tim Militin, and the council members and staff. I'm Ashley from the city clerk's office. Um, we had to bring it before you guys before um county could swear him in. So, we had to vote first.
Well, y'all had to vote first for John Brown. Then it um come before the meeting in the meeting when they >> Okay. So he is a joint city county appointee. >> All right.
So we just talked about this and procedures I believe. Okay. >> Okay. >> I was a little confused.
We just had our procedures meeting where we talked about trying to prevent folks from being on the same board appointed by two different bodies. >> Yeah. >> But then in this case if it is a joint it's a joint city county. >> Yeah.
We had to have your decision before going to the meeting for them to decide. It's an interesting process because if the joint city county >> board decides not to approve what happens but all right got it. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome.
>> That's the end of my report, Mr. Mayor. >> Thank you very much. All right.
Uh at this time, I'll read the uh consent agenda. Item number one, mayor Hispanic Latino Committee appointment. Item number two, Durham Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Commission appointments. Number three, Durham Convention and Visitors Bureau Bureau um mayoral appointment, Durham Convention and Visitors Bureau Discover Durham joint city county representative appointment.
Number five, participatory budgeting steering committee appointments. Number six, fiscal year 25. Uh just Right. We did. I'm just saying in number six it says fiscal year 25 and then in the actual motion it says fiscal year 26. Is that accurate?
>> It would be. >> So I'm sorry. Could you >> Well, as I'm reading the item, >> it's the motion is for fiscical year 26. uh we're suspending the rules for them to start invoicing now, but in the uh description of the item is fiscal year 25, >> right?
And I think the the motion uh is for it's it states this for 26. Um I so so I think that it should it doesn't matter that the uh title is incorrect. It's really the motion and we're in fiscal year 25 2026. >> Mr.
Mayor, the grant agreement itself also references FY25. >> So, >> so we're in fiscal year 2526 right now. So, would it matter where the authorization lies? Um, so, uh, if, um, if we, well, the it appears, and I don't know because I didn't I haven't
looked at the contract and and noticed it's discrepancy in the motion, but it would appear that the the motion language is has a clerical error. Um, uh, and it should read FY25. I'm just going to confirm that with, um, Mr. uh, >> uh, Hernandez.
Should that be 20? It should be 26. >> It is supposed to be 26. >> 26.
>> Okay. So, so we are good then. >> Yeah. >> The motion and then the but the contract itself >> the term or the contract outlines the fiscal year 26 in the term section.
So it is correct in that in that section. >> We apologize for the error but but I I feel confident we can execute the contract uh per direction. And I would note uh per conversation uh the attorney and I had this morning that um since you amended my uh contracting authority Monday night uh we chose to leave this item on the agenda, but it is within my contracting authority. So as long as
this discussion makes it clear that council intends to approve it uh either through the motion or either through my authority, we can move forward on this item. >> Let's move. >> Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. Number seven, approval of the biofilic resolution. Number eight, approval. >> Oh, okay.
>> We're good. >> We're good. >> I'm I'm good. Yeah, >> that's number seven.
>> You know what? I Let me pause, colleagues. I did not look at my signups. I'm so sorry.
>> Could you Yeah. Middleton, can you let me know which >> you got? Three speakers for seven. >> All right.
So, number seven has been pulled. Number eight, uh, approval of Make sure I don't miss any of those. That's fine. >> Um, number eight, approval of ordinance revision to chapter 10, article 6, housing code, section 10 through 241.
And that item's been pulled. >> Okay. No, no. I just need to make sure those numbers I know which number are middle looking over there on those.
>> Okay. >> Uh number nine, Durham Rail Trail. Okay. Um Dorm Rail Trail project design update and professional services contract amendment with the John R.
McAdams Company Incorporated. Presentation number 10. Third amendment to project management consulting services contract with Turner and Townsen Hairy LLC. I pull that one.
>> Pull out. Yeah. >> Number 10. Yep.
Number 10. >> Who's Chelsea and Paul? >> Number 11, rooftop PV preassessment and design build contracts with Renew Energy Solutions LLC. Number 12, first amendment to contract for citywide window washing services. Number 13, resolution providing approval of Page Road Apartments and the financing thereof with multif family housing revenue bonds. I pull that one.
>> Number 14, ordinance prohibiting wildlife feeding. >> It's been pulled. All >> right. Number 15.
>> Number nine. That's a card. Number nine is pulled as well, colleagues. >> Oh, it's a presentation.
It's presentation. Sorry. >> There's a speaker for it, too. >> Yeah.
>> All right. Number 13, resolution providing No, sorry. Number 15, amendment amended and restated loan agreement with self-help ventures fund Durham affordable housing loan fund. Pull that one too, please.
>> 15 16 contract with Quorum Houses LLC to administer the affordable accessory dwelling unit ADU loan pallet program. Presentation number 17, first amendment to the central square solutions and support agreement. Number 18, amendment number one to the professional engineering services contract with CDM Smith Incorporated for lead and copper rule program management.
Number 19, contract amendment one to the service contract with ads envir ads environmental services LLC for sanitary sewer flow and rainfall monitoring comprehensive service and maintenance and on the pres more presentations um presentation on the Durham to Roxboro rail trail plan uh central Durham bus rapid transit project feasibility cliff street partial um street closings This the public hearings that are coming up on consolidated zoning map change Ravenstone commercial consolidated annexation Wake Olive consolidated zoning map change 1607 East Cornwallis road. Well, that's going to be a long night. >> And number 26 uh we have a uh we have a a citizens matter Johan and Safa. All right, that is our consent agenda with items.
>> Mr. Mr. Mayor, I have items 7, 8,
10, 13, 14, and 15 pulled. Mr. Maner, do you concur? >> I do with presentations for 96, 20, and 21.
>> Yes, sir. >> All right. I'm going to address citizens matters first. >> Okay, sounds good.
Um, welcome assistant. >> Yeah. >> Good afternoon. Uh my name is Johanna.
>> One moment. Um yes, three minutes. >> Yeah, >> you have >> the content correct. >> Um yeah, we submitted it to >> All right, good.
I need to just read something ahead of time. >> Sure. >> All right. Before we proceed, a brief content warning.
The next item includes audio of gunfire. Some viewers may find this disturbing. Viewer discretion is advised. >> Welcome. You have three minutes.
>> Thank you. >> Hi. Uh, thank you. My name is Johannan.
I'm originally from Ethiopia. And when I was a child, my country was going through a civil war. And I have vivid memories of hiding in my parents' basement, terrified as the sounds of gunfire echoed through our streets. As an adult, I was lucky enough to immigrate to the US and benefit from the peace that this country provides.
However, over the past few months, the sounds of gunfire have become a disturbing part of my life. I never imagined that I would relive the trauma of war in the United States, but that is what Durham has become for me and my neighbors. a place where our streets don't feel safe and being even being inside your own home doesn't guarantee safety since bullets are going through people's houses. Civilians in my neighborhood are being shot and killed. Now, I understand that gun violence is neither a new or unique problem to the
bull city. I also know that this is a complicated and systemic issue. But luckily, it's not an intractable problem. How do I know this?
Because cities like Baltimore and Birmingham, which are known for their high rates of gun violence, are now seeing historic declines and homicide rates. And this is a result of the intentional local policies that this cities have implemented that are focused on violence prevention and community intervention. These cities are not placing the entire burden of preventing violence on their law enforcement agencies. Rather, they're taking a holistic approach. So, I respectfully ask this city, not the police department, but this city, how many lives must be lost in Durham before the city adopts a comprehensive program that goes beyond policing? I also ask, how long will the city allow the sounds of gunfire to dominate our streets as if
we were in a war zone? And as you hear the sounds of these driveby shootings that we're experiencing on a weekly basis, I ask you all what you would do if this was happening in front of your homes. Thank you. m.
m. m. m.
Thank you. Next, I have Danielle Hennis. Is there are you Danielle? >> Yes, I am.
>> Welcome. You have three minutes. >> Hello, my name is Danielle. Thank you for allowing our neighborhood to speak today about the gun violence that our community is currently experiencing.
We're asking the city to create a comprehensive gun violence intervention program. In the past few months, the sounds of gunshots that you just heard have been the soundtrack of our days, evenings, and what wakes us up in the middle of the night. The other night, gunshots exploded outside of our bedroom window, forcing us to roll out of bed, cower on the floor, and pray that none of the bullets went through our walls. That shooting led to one young man losing his life and unfortunately he is just one of too many. This year 130 people were shot in Durham. That means someone is being shot in Durham every other day.
Nearly three people a month die from those shootings. In our immediate neighborhood, we've had seven shootings in seven weeks. And with the amount of bullets fired, it's honestly miraculous that more people haven't accidentally been shot in the crossfire. According to Every Town, which is a gun safety organization, Durham is the third most dangerous city in North Carolina.
This year, Durham's homicide rate has increased by 18%. But more startling is within our own district, where the homicide rate has doubled from last year to this year. The number one most dangerous city in North Carolina is Greensboro. Their homicide rate this year, on the other hand, has gone down by 3%.
This means that if the trend continues, Durm will likely become the second most dangerous city in North Carolina since our homicide rate is increasing and Greensboro's is decreasing. How is it that the most violent city in North Carolina has a decreasing homicide rate? I don't know, but I assume it has to do with the fact that they still have a community violence intervention program that they are funding.
And I find it incomprehensible that Durham does not. As previously mentioned, this is a complex and diff difficult issue, but it's not impossible. Unless, of course, as a city, we continue doing nothing. With the increasing numbers of homicides this year in District 1, we have surpassed the total number of homicides for the entire year of 2024.
In the first eight months of this year, we cannot wait a year or two for this to change. We cannot solely depend on the police. We need the city to step up. We need you to care about your citizens lives.
We need you to care enough to create safe cities where neighbors can talk in the street without having to take cover behind a car when another car pulls up and a g masked man comes out with a gun. We need you to care about every neighborhood in Durham, regardless of their zip code. Caring does not mean that you feel bad or that you feel sympathy for us. Caring means that you create and implement policies and programs to decrease gun and gang violence. Caring means that you address and acknowledge the systemic
problems and caring means that you take action now. Thank you. >> Thank you, >> Isaac King, >> Mayor Williams, and esteemed members of the city council. Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to speak today on behalf of our neighbors.
My name is Isaac King and I'm part of a group of almost 50 neighbors that have come together unfortunately out of fear. I'm here to voice an urgent concern, the rise of gang violent, gang activity and gun violence in the area surrounding my East Durham home. I run or bicycle on the streets and greenways of Durham on a daily basis, often after dark and sometimes at midnight. I feel safe utilizing public spaces across the entire city. Yet now in the street in front of my own home, the violence has escalated to the point where for the first time in my three and a half years here, I feel generally unsafe. Generally, genuinely unsafe in the city
I love. Experiencing repeated gun violence within a block or two of my residence has been profoundly unnerving and demands an immediate and comprehensive multi-ep department response. Getting out of bed at midnight to the sounds of gunshots, seeing a masked individual with a gun coming out of my neighbor's yard, and standing over a dead body and an illegally modified Glock handgun until the police arrive is not something that anyone should have to experience. We're not asking for increased police patrols alone.
We are demanding the allocation of resources for violence and intervention programs, dedicated youth outreach, and community-based intervention strategies that address the root causes of th this issue. As I've mentioned, I spend significant time on Durham streets and have witnessed a clear and undeniable difference in road quality, sidewalks, and infrastructure repairs between historically black neighborhoods and more affluent predominantly white areas. This
inequality reflects a painful history. The effects of redlinining persist in our city's current resource allocation. Durham's recent de development has not equally benefited all residents. Your leadership is needed now to ensure that growth is inclusive, safe, and equitable.
Despite being a well- educated, well-informed, and well-meaning group of constituents, we have sincerely struggled to find meaningful resources and assistance from the city to deal with this dangerous problem. While we appreciate the great support from Captain Clowner of Precinct 1, relying solely on police response is insufficient when we continue to experience shootings and most recently a homicide. I want you to imagine getting out of bed in the middle of the night to gunshots, walking outside to find your neighbor in his yard, checking for a pulse on a gun gunshot victim. Then after the police arrive, returning to your porch with the wife of that neighbor because after rushing home from her night shift, she was denied entry to her home to to check on her husband and comfort him because of the crime scene. What actions would you individually
take? What resources would you as a group provide to one of your fellow council members if they were in such a scenario? We are asking for what I imagine would be a timely and comprehensive response in that scenario for our own neighborhood. We are demanding the equal protection and service that all taxpaying residents of Durham deserve.
We call on the council and the city manager to respond to our group of 50 concerned neighbors with a specific and measurable plan to address both the public safety crisis and the infrastructure inequalities. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Sorry for going over.
>> You're fine. Um, Vikima Prada, welcome. You have three minutes. >> Good afternoon, member of the city council.
I live in Chaffy Hill for 9 years. As my son start getting older, we wanted to raise our two years old in a multicultural community. So, we moved to Duran a year ago. I never imagined that our biggest concern will become my little boy safety. After moving in, we
face a tough first week, learning that someone has been found dead just three door from our house. No longer after, we start hearing gunshots nearby at night. Witnesses this event made me realize how close danger can be and suddenly gunfire feel like a everyday part of our life. These days, I feel overwhelmed with worry.
I haven't slept well over four months. after waking up often waking up in the middle of the night to check on my baby after hearing gunshot every crazy every day. Crazy during the day even during the day in the middle of the day my son is playing outside on a backyard and gunshot start start over again. Everyone walking near our homes now feels like a threat.
Everything feels scary. Some days I want to live for my family safety. This is not a life we imagine and I truly believe we all
deserve a safety community. I wanted to give my son a bright future feeling with hope and security. I also realize that I'm no alone in this feeling. After going door by door to get to know my neighbors better, even every single person has expressed the same fear.
We are all afraid to leave our houses to play outside on our porch to visit neighbor to even walk around our neighborhood. I wish we could focus on park or development but I'm unable to do nothing when I'm feel like my life is in risk. We urgently need your support and solution to address this gun violence and drug organized trafficking issue in our community. You need to implement programs to deal with gunshot bronto for forward.
Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Evan Lane, >> welcome. You have three minutes. >> Thank you. >> Good afternoon, honorable city council
members. This is my first time speaking at a council meeting, so please bear with me. I'm typical not I'm typically not one to speak out in a public setting, but I find sometimes there are things important enough to push yourself out of your comfort zone. My priority is safety.
That's not by choice. That's the by necessity of the reality we find ourselves in. Over the past year, within one block of our house, we have experienced an average of two to three shootings a month, sometimes two to three in the same week. And I'm talking people in mass jumping out of cars with modified semi-automatics and firing down a street.
Driveby shootings where the houses shot back, sometimes catching other houses in the crossfire, my own house included. Kids live in these houses and play outside in the yards. My own home included. When we moved to the area, we didn't know the neighbors for quite some time.
We've discovered that's because they are afraid to come out of their houses. I don't take long showers anymore, and I get dressed quickly so I can be ready and respond quickly if there's another shooting. When I'm sick, I don't take Nyquil or any medications at night because one time I did, and there was a homicide on the next block
up. It's terrifying to wake up to that news, frantically grabbing at my phone to check the baby monitor to make sure stray bullets didn't go into the room where my son is sleeping. This is our reality and it's the silent majority in our area that live with that fear. We would love to spend time talking about parks, beautifification, and development, but when people are crippled by fear, when your residents that you represent are crippled by fear, then you are not spending your time on what is important to your people.
I've lived in the Triangle almost 20 years, most of that in Durham, some of that in downtown Raleigh. I've experienced my share of crime and frightening situations. In those times, it was my trust in the system that gave me confidence to overcome that fear. We have to believe that the systems in place will bring justice, will write the wrongs, protect the innocent, and will take steps necessary to prevent crimes the crimes from reoccurring. I hope um sorry, the hope that we all need is to trust that tomorrow we that uh that tomorrow will be better than today. Today, the system is broken in Durham.
The offenders know this and have learned to use it. We need to know that offenders will face prosecution, that justice will be served, but also that the city has a system in place for reintegration so that their only option is not to continue to the cycle of violence and crime. We need programs that directly address gun violence in Durham. I understand much of the violence and crime has been ongoing for some time, but today you are a city council member and I ask you what you will do.
We are the residents of Durham. We are watching to see which of you choose to make our communities safe. Thank you. >> Thank you.
Uh those are all all of the speakers on that uh item. I will say that we do have a memo that gives an update from the police department. I I will say that, you know, um continue to call 911, but that that model that that that's not going to solve your issue. Uh we do have um I I would actually implore all of you to tune in to our next joint
city county meeting which is next Wednesday where we're >> Thursday >> next Thursday where we're talking about this very specific thing which is a very holistic plan with between the city and the county. Uh I was just on a call yesterday with the violence reduction center out of University of um Virginia. Yep. And uh so I've made it very clear in the past this is my top priority and everyone on this council I believe has agreed that we have a plan um we can we can entertain that.
So that has been that work is being done. It moves incredibly slow unfortunately. Uh there are lots of moving parts that we have to bring lots of bodies we have to bring together. Um but it has been worked on.
I the fact that you're living through this every day um is a nightmare and and I do I know that there is some elevated um monitoring going on in the neighborhood. Um but please make sure you call 911 every single time and um I just pray if you know I pray it stops. I
do. And I hope that we can catch them and consequences will be carried out. Thank you. That's my next item.
>> Thanks for coming today. Takes a lot of courage. >> Yeah, pulled items. >> Number seven.
All right. All right. First pulled item is number seven. >> No.
>> No. >> Oh, I'm actually one moment. your seven. >> Yeah, I do have seven.
And these are virtual, right? All right. I I have uh number seven. Uh that's the first one.
And I have uh virtual speakers are the first one I have. No, I'm sorry. I actually have another citizens matter. >> Um John Talmage, can you hear me?
He locked off. Okay. All right. Now to number seven and I'll start virtually.
This is the biophilic resolution. Um Bonner. Um Brooks Bonner. Can you hear me?
Brooks Bonner. Can you hear me? See them locked in. Okay.
Uh, Julie Julie Delang. >> Julie, can you hear me? >> I can hear you. Yes.
>> Welcome. Welcome. You have three minutes. >> Thank you. I just want to uh My name is Julie Delang and I'm a Darham resident and I just wanted to wholeheartedly support the bofilic resolution for the city of Durham and thank member Ree for
proposing it. I do believe that all residents should have access to natural areas within the city and around. Um particularly now is the time when we've got so much development coming. Uh this is the time to use the existing tree canopy study that's ongoing and to plant new trees.
But in order to use that, we must get out and secure some other areas before the development gets there. Um, water pollution, my understanding is the sediment is the leading cause of pollution in our water and I do think that our stream buffers and protecting our native riparian uh along the streams and rivers is going to improve that water quality. And then a shout out briefly to keep Durham Beautiful, New Hope uh Bird Alliance and Rew Wild who is already successfully engaging the community members in the removal of invasive species in Durham parks. And this will clean the parts of this ecological pollution and should extend
the life of the canopy and the natural areas within the city that many of our citizens use. Thank you. >> Thank you so much for joining us in your remarks. Next have Barbara Driscoll.
>> Can you hear me? >> I sure can. Welcome. You have three minutes.
>> Thank you. Um, I'm Barbara Driscoll. I am with New Hope Bird Alliance and we uh fullheartedly support the resolution put forward to support staff in ensuring Durham joins the biophilic city network. This is an excellent opportunity for staff to learn about nature-based solutions for many urban problems.
Biofilic cities are healthier and create a sense of community where nature is part of the community. Integrating nature into our everyday lives creates healthier communities and improves biodiversity in our urban areas. Natureville cities increase opportunities to increase tourism, urban
greenery, and significantly decreases costs related to managing storm water and air quality. And buildings located around nature are more highly valued. So, we really support this and feel like it will move Dorham to a higher level as far as being a more sustainable city. Thank you.
>> Thank you so much. Those are all the speakers I have for item number seven. I'll now move to item number eight. Uh, and I'll start online.
Item number eight is approval of the ordinance revision to chapter 10, article 6, housing code, section 10-241. And I'll start online. Jean Monty. >> Okay.
Jane, can you hear me? >> Mr. Mayor, she's not in the queue. >> All right. Howard Lint.
Howard, can you hear me? >> Yes. Can you hear? >> Yes.
Welcome. You have three minutes. >> Thank you so much. get rid of an echo.
I think my name is Howard Lince. I'm happy to send these remarks in writing. To be clear, I'm speaking on my own behalf and not on behalf of any current or former employer. I've worked on hundreds of cases and as an attorney for tenants in Charlotte.
Um, scores of those had abatement or habitability issues. Uh, Charlotte, Pineville, and Pittsburgh all have ordinances identical or nearly identical to the one proposed here. I don't whether the city governments have invoked the law themselves in charging documents, but I've seen both represented tenants and unrepresented tenants use it to enforce their rights. And it works. Here's how it's used in civil cases. A tenant can sue their landlords either by filing a lawsuit or by filing claims if their landlord sues
them. That includes cases saying that the landlord hasn't been maintaining the property, perhaps even dangerous, and the tenant can say that their landlord has been overcharging. The ordinance makes it the ordinance makes it so you can distinguish between mere defects and contract obligations on one hand in conditions that leave the home img because you don't have to argue about the value of a problem. And again, that's because you can recognize that landlords shouldn't be able to charge anything to keep a tenant in a dangerous home.
It is for say a refrigerator not to work. It is another to leave someone in a home where they can for instance freeze to death or they don't have running water. Um and it incentivizes landlords to maintain their property in safe
conditions. Um, I have seen I have filed cases with those kinds of claims and I've seen tenants file those cases successfully uh without attorneys. Um, magistrates and judges have agreed that the rental value was zero because the ordinance says you can't charge someone rent while you are leaving while you are leaving them in a home where they can freeze to death. And winning those cases has effects on other cases that have been filed and it helps those sell in some cases and it just has a broader effect even where there isn't a lawsuit because again it is incentivizing landlords broadly. Um it encourages landlords to take those obligations seriously and I've seen
cases for instance eviction cases where some landlords have just dropped their eviction lawsuits when they've realized that tenants are talking habitability issue. >> Mr. Lince, thank you so much for your comments today, sir. We appreciate >> Mr.
Lince, that's your that's your time. Thank you, sir. >> At this time, we're going to ask for Shertha Dash if you'll make her hearable. Shareth, can you hear me?
Shertha Dash, can you hear me? >> Mr. Mayor Prom, I don't see Sheretha in the queue. >> Okay.
I that exhaust all the speakers I have on the list. Um that wanted to speak on this item. I'll bring it back now. If you see uh Shere we have some Okay, we have some in house.
All right. I just got handed the cards. Forgive me. >> All right. At this time, we're going to welcome our our friends and neighbors
who are in um chamber with us. Erin Young, Cynthia Hoskins, Ken Chitna, and Marinella Marsano. If y'all will come in order. Thank you for being with us.
You'll each have three minutes. Push that button if you don't mind. >> Good afternoon, Mayor Williams, and members of the council. Thank you for the opportunity to speak about updates to the housing code on behalf of the triangle tenants union as well as the tenants association for my own rental community here in Durham.
To the point uh no one in my family owns their home. We have been renters for my entire life. When I was young, we ran into habitability issues in our homes. Uh, and it's a very helpless feeling to watch your parents struggle to provide a safe home for you.
Um, we had no recourse at the time. Uh, today we are going to be hearing from Durham tenants, our own neighbors affected by unsafe housing conditions and retaliatory and uncooperative management. Gentrification is the constant antagonist of cities with deep cultural roots and history. It has many more tools than tenants do.
One of which is forcing us out with unlivable conditions so that renovations can be made and the unit can be rented out at a rate that most Durham residents just can't afford. The Chamber of Commerce says that nearly half of all renters in Durham are rent burdened. That's 30% or more of their income being used to pay rent. Uh within that, a quarter of all Durham residents are severely rent burdened and that's 50% or more of their income. Uh these issues cross racial lines as housing often does. Black communities in
Durham are more likely to rent, more likely to be costburdened, and more likely to be evicted. Uh this council uh last month voted to protect city workers from unlawful search by ICE. Uh and in its resolution, the city said that historically pursued the city has historically pursued equity and safety for all residents. And I think that's fantastic to protect the residents of Durham and city workers.
Um, but given that interest in protecting immigrants and Latinx communities, we can acknowledge that they are also disproportionately affected by housing issues. Uh, yet they are one of our most at risk populations, especially given the current climate, which has already been mentioned in this meeting. Uh, Durham owes its legacy to this melting pot of uh, communities that made it what it is. We should aim to be better than cities where the people who
work there can't afford to live there. We know what they are. A lot of them are on the west coast. Uh and the proposed subcategory F would give renters a vital tool to keep themselves and their families safe, healthy, and living in dignity.
The partnership for a healthy Durham, which the city of Durham, >> thank you so much for being with us at your time. I appreciate you. >> Good afternoon, city council. My name is Mariana Marzano and I am here today to speak on behalf of the immigrant and refugee community. I work very close with both communities and as you may know and as you may know uh many of them do not feel safe to be here and to share their own testimonies. Today I'm going to talk about the case of Maria's family which I personally
have talked to her several times and I have seen the pictures and videos. In December 2024, Maria and her husband signed a lease for what they hoped would be their first safe home in Durham. From the very beginning, the home had serious structural and maintenance problems. Both internal and external ceilings were leaking every time it rained.
The porch ceiling was lit tilted, giving the impression it would collapse at any moment. Inside the floor inside the floor between the bathroom and adjoining room was sunken and the doors could not close properly because of the damage. In the living room, water poured in through the window and she had to place a plastic bucket to collect the water every time it rained. Maria lived in constant fear for the safety of her
children. She wouldn't allow her daughters to play in the front or back of the house, afraid that part of the ceiling or porch might fall. Instead of a home that offered peace and dignity, it became a source of anxiety, safety, and health concerns. But the case of Maria is not the only one.
Through the listening sessions at my church, I have also listened many other cases in which immigrants have mention it about similar issues concerning their homes. But to my surprise, I have also learned that among the immigrant comm community, these issues are not even reported. When I asked the reason why is that they don't report these issues among others they have mentioned three language barriers, fear of legal status
and simply just give up and say nothing and live with it. So as we have learned, marginalized and vulnerable communities are silent with regards to abuse and unjustice regarding this very important issue. That is why I believe that an ordinance will improve Durham affordable housing by improving the quality of housing and levels of maintenance the duration. Okay.
Thank you. >> Thank you so much for being with us. Good afternoon, sir. Thank you for being with us.
You have three minutes. >> Good afternoon. Thank you, mayor, and members of the council for the opportunity to speak here today. My name is Ken Shia.
I am the director of justice, peace, and integrity of creation at Immaculate Conception Catholic Church, which is a large multicultural parish located in downtown Durham served by Franciscan friars. We are one of four Catholic churches in Durham. But I know what I am sharing
here with you today resonate deeply with countless churches, synagogues, houses of worship, and other intermediary institutions that have been on the front lines walking side by side with our immigrant, refugee, and asylum seeking communities. My purpose in speaking here with you is to ensure that you are acutely aware of the very real suffering immigrants and refugees are experiencing here in Durham. Yet one of the largest injustices that they are experiencing can be addressed if we attend to the mater material conditions of their homes. This housing ordinance which protects tenants does not take place in a vacuum. As trusted public servants, I want to share with you what our churches, synagogues, and houses of worship are dealing with every day as more and more people come to us because they have nowhere else to go. As this burden of support continues to fall on us, we often do not have the staff or financial
resources to adequately address the overwhelming need, especially when interacting with landlords on the tenants behalf, addressing language barriers, abuse, or the enormous lack of resources. This is a per pervasive problem of fundamental human rights and represents a major breakdown in systematic justice. So, what is happening? Well, let me be very concrete.
Our churches are in inundated with stories of burdens and struggles the the tenants face from roaches, bed bugs, infested carpets, rotted flooring and ceilings, other structural damage damages from broken toilets and unsanitary conditions. They are often used to uh forced to use stoves to warm their water or even their apartments. They have no functioning HVAC, so no heat uh for heating units or air conditionings. Often when the friars and others come to their homes, the children are outside because of the extreme heat. Trash may not be picked up for months from the large bins. Uh landlords
violating lease agreements. Um from small things of only giving them a week to renew instead of 30 days. They may tow their cars at random even though they are legally parked. No se uh safety or security, windows unsealed, the list goes on and on.
I leave you uh essentially to make sure that you're painfully aware of this because these tenants are dead to rights. Whenever they try to mention anything, they are told that the landlords will alert ICE uh and that will flag something in the system. Uh so the danger gets worse and worse every day. So I ask you to bear witness to this.
So Durham is a city where even the most poor and vulnerable are protected. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for being with us.
And as our next speaker comes, I'm going to invite uh Italo Medalius to prepare uh himself, Donna Batista, and then Emily Wilks. Good afternoon. >> Good afternoon. Um mayor, council men, women. My name is Cynthia Hosins, and I'm a resident at Willard Street and I
do know Ashton Place. I have in my hand eight complaints from maintenance from the time I moved in. And I moved in July the 1st, 2021. I was told it was a senior citizen building, disabled senior citizen building.
But when I moved in there a year later, they changed everything. Never told us anything. Never gave us no letters. This building is changing to a open building.
I've had more we've had gang members fighting uh breaking into apartments and your maintenance your maintenance when you come home you got maintenance in your apartment for no reason. Why is that? This has been going on ever since I've been there. I've caught two of the maintenance men in my apartment for no reason. Yes, I change my locks and I only leave my house until after 5:00 because I don't want anybody in my house going through anything in my house. I have a
lot of people in Ashton Place and Willard Street have things missing out of their apartment because maintenance is in and out. Now, when you come home, you got maintenance sitting in your house drinking your beer and your tequila and you coming home from work. What What's this telling you? That's something I I never thought that would happen.
Now I'm living at Willard Street. It's not safe. It's not clean. And you have the maintenance man has threatened me several times.
And I will not be accepting that again. He has cussed me out. He has bammed on my door. He bam on my door so hard that I fell out the bed.
I'm going to the doctor now for my left hip. There's a lot of people in that building are very scared. And I'm not scared. I'm not scared of nobody in that building.
I'm not scared of the management. I've been there five years. I've had two eviction notice for no reason. I had to pay out. I got an eviction notice for 17
something, then 28 something. I gave them I think about $1,200 and I told them I'm not giving them any more money. I I have section 8. I pay my rent.
I pay anybody rent in the building that need help. That's what I will do. I will help anyone. I pay $50 extra on my rent and anybody in that building that need help, they come knock on my door.
If anybody in that building is scared, they knock on my door. You got people living in the storage area and they come in. You got people coming in, coming in, coming in constantly. Your management, well, let me see how I can put this.
um went had about 27 28 of them and the whole time they've been there it's been money missing. So tell me how we going to cover that. Okay, I'm good. >> Thank you so much for being here.
>> All right. Uh Mr. Mayor, Mayor Prom, City Council, good to see everybody again. I'm sure you're all sick of me at this point.
Um, but today I'll be I I just want to uh talk a little bit about a memo. I don't know if you all received it yesterday in your emails. m. Um, and this is mostly a counter memo to the September memo that the city attorney's office uh provided about the uh ordinance revision.
And in that memo, what we attempt to do is just kind of provide some counterpoints to what uh the city attorney said that, you know, this ordinance might not be legally sound. We believe the opposite. Uh after having looked at some case law and having looked at all of these uh arguments, there are two main buckets of arguments that were provided in the city attorney's memo. One was around authority.
The other was around enforcement. The authority side has two portions of it. It has preeemption and interference with private contracts. So, hitting on both of those, the city attorney mentioned that uh this
ordinance might uh not be legal because the state has preempted the field around landlord tenant law. Uh we pulled up some cases and under the case King versus Town of Chapel Hill, it lays out very clearly uh what the test for field preeemption is and it states that there needs to be an intent to provide a complete and integrated regulatory scheme to the exclusion of local regulation. So the landlord tenant act incorporates uh your ability today to be able to pass housing ordinance and housing standards. So by definition it cannot be field preempted.
So field preeemption is not an issue here. Secondly, it goes into the interference of private contracts. There's two issues here. Interference of private contracts would be we are interfering with the civil idea of a contract. So by definition, this ordinance, which makes it a misdemeanor to collect rent uh when somebody's breaking a housing code, it's already taking place when a contract is
already formed. So there's no issue with contract formation. It's not interfering with rent at all because as we've already talked about for like an hour last time, uh it doesn't actually help tenants to be able to withhold rent. This is just a remedy similar to a nuisance abatement, right?
So, it's not modifying any terms. It's not uh asking people to not to not pay or collect rent. It's making it unlawful to collect rent. And we can go into that a little bit later if if there's an issue there.
And it's not terminating the contract. So there is no interference with private contracts at all. Now the city attorney's memo also says let's just say that we hold that this is an interference with private contracts. The city attorney's memo says that generally localities cannot interfere with economic liberties but generally also means that there are some cases in which it can and the king case does give us the uh the the standard for that and it must be a rational basis review. So, uh, the ordinance that you pass has to be rationally related to welfare. So, if
y'all give me some more time later on, we can keep going on it. But you all have the memo. Thank you. >> Thank you.
Thank you so much for being with us. >> Good afternoon. Leaders of Durham and citizens of Durham. My name is Donna Batista.
I was here at the last work session. Some of you may remember me and the email that I sent to you. I want to speak for others as well as myself and the most important or the number one issue that would tie in really well with this. JFK has $18 million of Durham's money in its renovation project.
Millennial never paid any work for any work that was done. The contractor who has had the renovations under his responsibility all this time, he paid all employees of his company. They couldn't keep any housekeeping staff because they wouldn't pay them. We've had one maintenance person. Very serious issue that I didn't get a chance to address last time was
fire safety. We live in a sevenstory building. There is no electronic connection between our building and the fire station, which is less than two miles down the road. I happened to meet the fire chief shortly before he retired in February.
and he showed me in a notebook he had half a dozen pages with single space incidents all involving trips to JFK for no reason because if there is a fire at JFK if me or somebody else doesn't call 911 they don't know about it. If you want to talk about gang activity, ever since I've lived there three and a half years, and we've had maybe 15, less than 20 crackheads. With the closing of McDougall Terrace, we've got 40 something crackheads, and we have gang activity that we never had there before. The plumbing problem is very serious. We have mold from the seventh floor down to the first floor. Brand new
apartments, newly renovated apartments are having to be newer renovated because of the mold. You can't escape it. Building management regarding the fire, they were told by the fire department to put a sign on the front door that says fire watch. When I asked what they meant by that, that I was told that someone on staff would stay there overnight.
In the event of a fire, they would go to all seven floors, knock on all 170 apartment doors to tell them there was a fire and they should evacuate. That's not going to happen. I want to know what the city of Durham plans to do about the responsibility that you have. You've got $18 million.
We, the taxpayers, have $18 million played into this. Since I'm running out of time and you won't let me have three minutes of the people who weren't here, I will say I'd give you a wide open warm invitation to come see me at JFK Towers. I'll be happy to show you
all four floors. Thank you for your time. Let's beat Pitts Pearl in Charlotte. Okay.
>> Thank you so much for being with us. >> Good afternoon. Thank you for being with us. You have three minutes.
>> Great. Hello. My name is Emily Wilks. I'm the associate pastor for Public Witness at Trinity Avenue Presbyterian Church, and I have the singular honor of being one of Donna Batista's pastors.
Donna has been an all-star volunteer with our church's emergency assistance ministry, providing rent and utility assistance for folks in Durham. So, she's not only living in the conditions that she just described, but she's also on the front lines of listening and providing care and support to people who are in Durham who are in similarly uninhabitable situations. And she can be the first to tell you that it is not just JFK Towers. There are thousands of Durham residents who are living in undignified housing conditions throughout Durham. The situation is urgent and it is necessary to act as
soon as possible. A few weeks ago, members of this body urged council members Cook and Baker to use their common sense when shutting down their questions about a 300 acre parcel of land to be developed. And so I similarly urge all of you who feel compelled to hide behind preeemption to use your common sense. And if Charlotte is capable of enacting this ordinance, so are we.
You may feel overwhelmed by the different possible interpretations of the law. But if you are to heir, heir on the side of compassion. Heir on the side of protecting the most vulnerable people in Durham. And my fervent prayer is that the buck in in fact does stop here.
Please do everything in your power to protect vulnerable residents in Durham. Thank you. >> Thank you so much for being with us. I think I think I've exhausted all of the cards for our neighbors that are here with us.
Does Shar Dash ever come back on? Um, Madam Clerk. All right. All right.
Uh, Mr. Mayor, you're back at the deis. I'll yield the gavl to you if you want. And we're gonna Brenda.
>> I'm sorry. I didn't see your card. I didn't You have three minutes. >> Which one is this?
Number nine. >> Ready. >> Good afternoon, Mayor and Council. >> Good afternoon.
Pull that mic a little down to you so we can hear you. Okay. Thank you. You got it.
>> Good afternoon, Mayor and Council. I want to speak on the um code enforcement, housing code enforcement. Right now, where I'm living is really unsafe. I had the city out there.
I had the housing authority out there and nothing seemed to be done about it. Um I guess my landlord um solution was, you know, to try to evict me, but I have none of my um electrical outlets is safe. Um, I got mold coming up through the floors. Um, refrigerator that smells like oil or something's leaking. Stove not working. And
like I said, um I guess my landlord um decision or his solution is just to evict me. And I'm trying to figure out call the city, call the housing authority. You know, who do I turn to next? next being out on the street.
So I, you know, I just feel like, you know, the city needs to do more to enforce these landlords to force these landlords to fix these places up like they're supposed to be. >> So, thank you. >> Thank you so much for being with us. >> Thank you, >> Mr.
Mayor. I'll yield back. >> Yeah. Thank you. Um, Mr. manager is I we've been talking about JFK Towers as well as other properties like this for a while and what I don't want I don't want uh I I don't want to be misleading um to the public and is there a way you can just express what we have done because I know we had addressed this before and uh
regarding fines and regarding oversight uh where are we on this? I I don't have recently updated information about interactions with JFK Tower as um you know obviously our housing and neighborhood services department uh handles uh housing uh quality code complaints. Our fire department responds to fire complaints. I haven't received recent updates of concerns.
That is not to say that there aren't concerns. They just haven't elevated to my office. I'd be happy at the direction of council to ask our departments to report back on recent concerns or complaints and I'll be happy to share that with council. >> Yeah, I think the last time we got an update, uh, manager Paige was still here. Um, and and you know, it is really easy to come to the mic and say council is, you know, responsible for this or responsible for that or you need to do this, do that. I want to make sure that our residents can come to us and say, "Hey, you know, this is our out outcry, but I want to make sure that we also
" The last time we got the update, I think we had fined as much as we could legally find. Uh, and it was it was becoming a state issue. I can't remember what it was, but I remember vaguely hearing an update of what staff had done. We had exhausted many of our options.
Um, I don't know, Mr. Lamar, do you is and I hate to throw you all on the spot like I'm if you know off the top of your head or remember vaguely what we talked about last time. >> I I do not. >> Okay, that's fine.
So, I'm going to ask that we we get an update on all of the options we have that can be addressed. Um and and I want to ensure that we have exhausted if not already exhausted everything that we can do. um because I want to be practical about it and I want to make sure that we we've exhausted everything that we can do. Um and I don't want to I don't want to mislead folks to think that we can do more. We're just sitting on our hands and not doing it. >> I'm I'm confident assuring council that prior issues with JFK Towers and uh
public concerns about JFK Towers are um have placed the staff in as proactive a position as we feel legally empowered to do. uh such that uh complaints at JFK Towers are are uh never um deprioritized in any way. But as far as a detailed update of whether or not there have been recent concerns that we've responded to, I I'll need more time to produce that information. >> Thank you.
Yeah, take your time. Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah.
>> Um thank you. I I just want to speak on this really quickly. I think the folks who came out um about the ordinance I think that was actually an excellent segue into the conversation of this ordinance >> just real quick about the about JFK tower. So for this update how can we communicate that back to the residents and folks who've spoken here today.
I think it's important because I think we as you said Mr. Mayor we've talked about this before um staff have taken action but we need an update on that. So I'd like to make sure we do communicate this so folks have full visibility on what has happened and what we can still do.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I I have to go back over there myself.
I don't want to take it personally, but I want to make sure we have a digital footprint so we can uh provide that to residents as well. >> Yeah. >> Follow JFK before we get to >> Okay. >> I just also want to remind folks that that that is neither a city maintained run or Durham Housing Authority property because I think sometimes that there's a little bit of um not that the residents don't know that.
I know you all know I'm speaking to the public here. um that um it is through code enforcement versus if it's DHA or something that the city has subsidy in. There are different um kind of mechanisms and with this property in particular, we are more limited in that way. So, I just want to provide that um context for both.
It it has come up before um and and I look forward to what city staff uh bring back as far as uh complaints from residents there and what we've we've done. But I just wanted to >> Yeah, thanks. >> that qualifying information.
>> Thanks for highlighting that. Um, council member Cook, >> but again, like I I haven't heard answer to how we will we communicate this back to residents. >> Will this be by via uh commanders newsletters? Just want to know how we're going to do that.
>> So, my preference is to consult with staff before I answer that question. I'd like to understand more clearly from them what connections we may have to either resident associations within uh JFK Towers. Uh and then we're happy to take direction from council if you'd like to see it uh in more public communications from the city or if you want that feedback targeted towards residents of JFK Towers. But short of uh talking to our various departments about what existing relationships they have or connections, I wouldn't want to uh try and come up with a comprehensive plan here on the spot, but I I'm happy to respond to council with what that plan looks like and seek your feedback and guidance on that.
>> Yeah, I appreciate that. appreciate your your um need to communicate with staff. Yeah, if we could be either if that's a communicate that goes out to residents or or the community, please copy us on
that or just at least kind of let us know so we have some visibility so we know what the what the answer has been to folks. Appreciate that, >> council member. >> Thank you. Um so yes, as I was saying, uh this is a good it's a good pathway into the ordinance and the importance of this ordinance.
Um JFK Towers, as Council Member Cabier said correctly, is neither a city property nor a DHA property. Um this ordinance is meant to address properties that we do not have distinct control over um and to help tenants that are in those vulnerable positions. We know things that are going on at certain properties. There are many other properties where things are going on um that we might not hear as loudly up here on this dis but believe me uh many of these advocates you heard from a couple of folks who are in faith-based organizations they hear it.
I'm an eviction defense lawyer. I hear it. I've seen it. Um and so these issues exist across the city. And this is something
that would allow for tenants who are in the most vulnerable positions to have a little bit more negotiation power. And I also want to talk about, you heard quite a lot of maintenance issues that were brought forth today. Um, again, just I think that's the tip of the iceberg, but I want to reiterate to something that kind of came up last time and and just want to say it again. What ends up happening when people have habitability issues that are this severe is that they have to spend money outside their homes in order to get their basic needs met.
They have to go to hotels. They have to take showers elsewhere. They have to join memberships at places to be able to do the basic things that they should be able to do in their housing, in their homes. And what happens when they have to spend all of that extra money and almost half of them are already rent burdened?
They miss their rent payments the next month. Right? And this is this is what we're talking about. It's not just a reactionary thing. This is also a preventative thing. And when you heard people talk about landlords using habitability as a gentrification tool,
that's exactly what's going on. People can allow this to go go on and on and on until folks are forced to leave because they are unsafe or they miss their payments and they end up in eviction court. They can use these habitability issues to ensure that those folks who they don't want are out and they can get residents that they want in. This is not going to be attacking all of the landlords in Durham, but the few that are using this as a tool to get folks out.
This is who we're talking about. And these are your most vulnerable tenants. It's your folks who are not documented. It's your folks that are rent burdened.
It's your folks that are the most vulnerable. And this is what this ordinance is here to protect. So, I want to speak again just thank all of these folks who came out from their days. I know that it is really nerve-wracking to come speak in front of city council.
Thank you. Thank you for doing that. Um, and again just say that I I hope that y'all will consider supporting this ordinance. [Applause]
>> Colleagues, any um um could you um >> did you have a response or any commentary? Well, um yeah, I would like to uh just mention that um with regard to the the um presentation by the North Carolina Tennis Union and this there's apparently a memorandum of law. I' it's I've just seen it and so our office haven't hasn't reviewed it. Um, I don't uh think that it would be constructive necessarily to um for us to prepare a reply brief um based on our opinion. I think what the city attorney's office has done is has given its opinion about um the the proposed ordinance that's already out there um being used by limited jurisdictions. We talked the last time about whether or not those jurisdictions actually actively enforce
that ordin ordinance. We provided you all with um our analysis of of the uh um of our opinion regarding the city's authority um to uh enforce that same language. In response to that, there was a memo in your package where um uh Deputy City Attorney um Sophia Hernandez prepared alternate language um in cooperation or in uh in concert with uh the uh neighborhood services folks on an alternative ordinance that does reference uh the uh issue of rent payment, but it's not a direct bar as the current as the ordinance proposed by uh council member Cook and that's out there right now. And we feel that if you want to uh if the council wants to move forward with some language that gives tenants um the
ability to uh make an argument with regard to uh obligation to pay rent or not pay rent or to make the uh uh make it so that it is unlawful for a landlord to charge rent if they are also allowing the occupancy of a um of uh of a um residence that is has been deemed to be unsafe uh or um um inhabitable. That's our preferred approach um instead of doing it directly. So, um, you know, if if you if you I I I'll ask the council if you're interested in us providing a legal response or reply to to this the the uh this memorandum of law. Um, I don't think that'd be constructive because you're not uh uh you're not a judge, you're not a court. Um and and and you know I think until this specific
issue of what precisely can a municipality regulate with regard to the landlord tenant contract relationship actually is directly um adjudicated before the appropriate court. I I'm not I think um we're just going to be disagreeing um among attorneys and and that probably is not constructive, but I'd like uh I think the city attorney's office would at least like you to consider the alternate language that um we came up with in the hopes that that that will uh address some of the current some of the issues raised, but would also be um in our opinion a uh uh be easier ordinance to to defend if it were challenged. >> So question. So here's my here's my my desire. I would like tenants to
have support if they are living in an unsafe condition. Right. I also am not a fan of governing and symbolism. " So, where how do we how close can we get to providing some protections for our tenants?
Um, and I know we have the memo, but I' I'd like to have it verbalized. Uh, how close can we get to that? Uh, and and it is something that is enforcable that could be beneficial to support tenants. Um, and I'm not I'm not in the business of trying to weaponize anything, but I do want to make sure that folks have resources that can support them.
Does that make sense? >> Yeah. If I I think what might be constructive is if I can ask uh deputy uh city attorney uh Sophia Hernandez to to come up and explain the operation of the draft ordinance that she um came up
with with uh alongside neighborhood services. Um and and that might help. Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Good afternoon, Sophia Hernandez, deputy city attorney. Um I hope you've had a chance to look at my memo. I have not had the luxury of uh being able to look at the memo that was discussed earlier today and certainly would like to review it. Um, so as I presented in my memo, I do think that there are things that the city can currently do, such as amend the emergency repair section of the housing code, which would allow us um the authority to move more quickly uh to ask the uh the property owner to remediate the the issue within a 72-hour period. And if they don't, for us to move more quickly to address those conditions. And so that enumerated list of of conditions was in consultation with what has been put forward with what Charlotte has um but obviously in co close communication
with our housing code administrator based on the concerns that they seeing um that get cited on a on a you know some more frequent basis that we would like to move quickly on. So uh there's also some suggestions there about creating a a pool of contractors that we could readily access. Um, and I will say that from the legal perspective, those are things that we can do. I would look to the administration to think about capacity and staff time and those things.
So, I don't want to speak on their behalf about those logistics, right? I'm talking about what can we legally do? And those are things we can do to more quickly alleviate these conditions such as inoperable heat in the winter and inoperable um AC in the summer or lack of portable running water or inoperable sanitary um facilities. So, um, the first part of the memo addresses the things that I think that are square within our authority to do that I think would advance some of these goals to better
protect tenants. Um, and then as uh, senior deputy city um, excuse me, senior deputy Fred Lamar has indicated, um, if council council really does want to move forward with some sort of rent prohibition, we have drafted an alternative that we think gets there. um that kind of nestled the the legal strategy is nuanced and I think probably something best discussed in close session um but something that we feel the city attorney's offices if we are a challenge would be more defensible but I think gets you to the goals that you want which is including saying landlords if these conditions are present that creates an uninhabitable dwelling and you can't occupy uninhabitable dwellings therefore you can't get the benefits of an occupancy of a dwelling, meaning charging rent. Um, so that's the the basic thinking, let's say, about why we have proposed the alternative. Of course, the city
attorney's office is happy to support whatever the council decides. >> I'm going to come to you. I I can appreciate you supporting what the council decides, but the first sentence says, and and I just want to say clearly, I do not want to set us up to be sued knowing that that is what we're walking into. So, I'm looking for an alternative that keeps us within the legal boundaries.
And so, that that's what I'm looking for. Go ahead. And I only say that because someone came up earlier and said that, you know, I don't know what the comment was, but I I I don't do symbolism. I don't want to lead people down the road and then we end up all screwed and the taxpayers have to pay for that, too.
So, go ahead. >> Thank you. I appreciate everybody's work on this. Um, a couple things. Can somebody can So this 72-hour period um
I guess I I'd like like a timeline because to me it's about I mean I I hear people's point around it gives tenants um a tool that they don't have uh that puts pressure on landlords. My reading of it, at least, and I'm not an attorney, would be that the thing that the city attorney's office is proposing also does that and potentially in a much quicker timeline because 72 hours is faster than you're going to be able to get to in court. Um, but I would love to hear from folks about that. I mean, that's just my understanding.
It's you get fines from the city if you don't do these things because we now have proof that this you you have an uninhabitable place. And my expectation would be you're a tenant. you've been fighting with your landlord, you have to go find an attorney, they have to take you, you know, it it's a longer process. So, if the point is to um alleviate quickly, that that seems to be the better mechanism to get there. If we then also need to do additional ordinances around
it, I think fine, whatever, we can talk about that. But it doesn't seem regardless of the ordinance, it seems like we should do that regardless, right? So >> the the the list of the like in our in our enforcement code essentially what we can discuss and argue about the ordinances, right? Like which one should we go and which one should we not?
But it seems like there's two things right now. There's the list of of things that are going to get you in trouble with code enforcement that we can find you on and to shorten the the time period you have time to fix it. And whether or not whichever ordinance we decide to move forward with or not, that part of it may take longer, right? I what I don't want to happen is that we have something in front of us that that at least could go more quickly, but I'm maybe I'm missing something.
So, >> thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um, thanks Councilman Cook for bringing this issue forward and for the folks who've presented here and shared their their concerns. But we we everyone on this
council shares your concerns about the quality of our rental housing in Durham and especially those that are uninhabitable or unfit or unhealthy or unsafe. Um yeah, so I think what I it feels like we're in the middle of this kind of legal battle, you know, and so I so I I think we're looking to the city attorney's office and other experts to help us through this. I agree with Council Member Caviier. Seems like either way, I mean, you've said you've said we could either change the minimum housing code or do this other um ordinance, whether it's the ordinance that's been proposed by residents council member Cook or the one that you've modified, but it seems like at a minimum we should add the list of of of items on the in the minimum housing code, right, under emergency repairs.
It seems like an obvious thing, but then there's this question about like if we're going to do a resolution, which one should it be? And so like I know council member Cook may have some suggestions here, but we got two dueling resolutions, right? Or I'm sorry, I'm sorry, ordinances. Yeah.
And so I just need some help on, you know, these are late breaking memos of the one that's come from the community. The internet had a chance to review. I don't
know whether council member Cook has reviewed the language for this new ordinance. So like I think I mean in some ways we as a council we sit up here and we're sort of we are kind of the the parents for this community keeping all our our children happy, right? So, can we do something here that keeps everyone happy that we all can agree on? That's what I I want to find that sort of thread that needle.
And I think to me, like I'd rather not like rush this thing. I want to make sure we get this right and make sure that all the legal minds are together and can actually figure out something that we can all agree on. >> If if I may respond, I I just want to make clear the city attorney's office is not necessarily countering or not countering. We're just we are based on our research as municipal lawyers, you know, we have ind indicated that we're worried about preeemption and these things. Um, of course, the what has been pointed out by council member Cavayto, amending the existing emergency repair section and adding enumerated uh specific conditions is is within the authority and certainly based on the
concerns that we have heard over the last couple years and certainly at the work session, which is why we brought that forward and thought that it would be nestled well in that section because then again, it would advance the code enforcement process. us as well as potentially give you an avenue for identifying those conditions for uh rent prohibition if again that's the will of the council. So I just want to clarify that. >> Yeah, just one more question also.
So appreciate that. So um as the mayor stated, I know you're concerned about authority and preeemption and enforcement, but just help me understand. So, in the ordinance that you that's in the memo, we have this ordinance with rent prohibition, the one that you've drafted, you all feel comfortable with that if we were to adopt that. >> Can you explain that?
>> Sure. Um, >> given your concerns about enforcement, >> the memo is divided into two pieces. The first piece is what we think the city council has authority to do and that is um potentially to implement some
additional enforcement mechanisms to enumerate case uh conditions in emergency repair section. The second section indicates that if council wants to incorporate a rent prohibition, we wanted to reinstate restate our concerns about preeemption and then say us policymakers can of course move forward and if you do move forward, this is the way we suggest you do it. Um because again for legal strategy reasons, we think it is um more defensible. >> Thank you.
You want to go to first? >> Oh, sorry. >> So, can we I'm I'm just going to say this and it's unpopular. You know, I'm not going to and I said this at my last one. When we were doing tax relief, right, there was a lot of conversation on what we had the
authority to do and not have the authority to do. That literally was years. So, I'm not going to be pressed. Sorry, I'm not uh to make a decision on ordinance language.
Uh we have had many conversations in the city where there is lots of interpretation of attorneys and it took a minute and we got there. Uh what I do see here is the list that we could go ahead and add to the code enforcement piece or the whatever that part of it, the long list. And so I guess what I'm saying is I want that to move forward. I think that that feels very very doable and smart and if and we've had to add capacity to code enforcement.
The the when this came around I think in 2022 we didn't have enough bilingual staff. I don't know if that's still an issue. We had to add uh some language access components and additional staffing to come on like weekends and things like that. So that was kind of the response in that moment.
If we need to continue to add capacity to code enforcement. Yes. So, I guess what I want to make sure that we I don't know where I am on the ordinance languages or language, right? I think
that that is now there's basically two dueling ordinances. That to me is this piece. What I what we can do and move even more quickly is the part that seems to me to get folks in a in a quicker timeline to have an issue resolved. And so, regardless of where we land on ordinance, I want to make sure that that part moves forward.
Um, and that I just want to make my I want to make that really really clear. I don't know where I'm going to land on the ordinance. We can put it on GBA for down for the next meeting. But, um, that that's where I'm at as an individual council member is the the part that lists what you can get in trouble for very clearly.
And if we can get it down to 48 hours instead of 72 hours, uh, I'm happy with that. Whatever we can push on that makes sense to me and we should move that as quickly as possible. the ordinance language piece. Um, this has happened before.
Welcome to North Carolina. I can name many, many times on council we've had to really deliberate. And I think there was
the question on whether the schools could build affordable housing on their land, right? Like there's lots of issues that we've had to kind of really delve into legally to say, do we have the authority? Does this entity have the authority? Um, and that that's the that's the the nature of being in North Carolina, unfortunately.
>> Yeah. Uh, and well, go ahead, Council Mook. m. I have not had a chance to read the other um the other ordinance that came in.
I'm really interested in and yeah, I'm really interested in reading that as well. Like I've always said, I went to y I went to law school on YouTube. Uh so it takes me a little longer to interpret these things. Um but what I would like is for you all to take a look at it and and get us to a point where our tenants can have more protections that keeps us from someone said earlier, don't hide behind preeemption. Preemption is a real thing
and I think it's very irresponsible we do not acknowledge that. But I do think we have to also push the envelope and try and get to a point where, you know, we we have to fight the systemic, I guess you could say, uh the ability to easily have access to oppression, systemic oppression in in in um in the world we live in, right? Uh and in North Carolina. But I'm not going to ignore that we do live in North Carolina and we have several cases where we've been over u our decisions have been overthrown.
When I say we, I mean the council before us. Uh so I I don't want to I don't want to do this symbolically and then get down the road and then the taxpayers have to pay millions in attorney fees and uh we because we're getting sued because we just did something because we said we did it. I want to get it right the first time. I would like for you all to take a look at that. I know you say it may not be constructive. I think it'll be constructive for you all to look at it and have an interpretation as it's compared to the ordinance that you
all presented and then um I'd like to hear what that looks like and sounds like. >> Can I can can I just to so I'm clear on what you're you're asking is when you say look at that uh and you refer to an ordinance. Do you mean I'm sorry I'm sorry. Do you mean the legal arguments that were mentioned today in the memo that that we received today from the the affordable uh from the from the tenants?
Correct. >> Because it's referencing. >> So So you would ask would we look at it, analyze it, provide you our legal opinion about it. We're we'd be happy to do that.
Wouldn't we? of you. Um, >> but I but I want to kind of split this up like that translation refer this back to staff allow you to analyze both you know yours versus what I'm hearing >> that is referencing case law and I have not read through it. I as council member Cavio said I don't want to rush and make a decision and then make a mistake and
get it wrong. There are some things we can do immediately that I'm interested in as well. Uh so does that make sense? >> I think so.
I I may follow up with some additional questions, but >> Okay. Yeah. Council member, >> I just I want to be really clear that when y'all say there are things we can do right now, those are not things we can do right now. They said earlier that they have not gone to staff.
We already have e They said earlier that they have not gone to staff to see about capability to do these enforcements. Am I correct? >> There have been uh base level conversations between the attorney's office and staff. We have not evaluated our capacity to implement the alternatives.
We understand the legality of implementing the alternatives. The capacity to do so is an entirely different matter. >> Yeah. So, I want to be really clear.
We have an emergency ordinance already and we have a 72 waiting hour waiting period. And I don't know who else of you has sat on this board. Um, but I go to these board meetings and I also was familiar with this board for many years because I send my tenants there all the
time. um you have to get an emergency hearing. It means enough board members have to sit down to make a decision. And then there is a 72-hour period in which they tell the landlords that they or the owners of the property that they have to fix it.
And then the city has to contract out to do the repairs. And then it want and that's city money that they have to use to do the repairs. And then once those repairs are done, they can put a lean on the property if it's ever sold to recoup the cost at a later date. That might be one year down the line and might be never.
Okay? And so what we're talking about here is like first of all not like it's not that fast. I'm not opposed to adding these on here. I want to say I really am not opposed to this because I I think it's important that people get their things done repaired quickly. Um so I'm not opposed to it, but I want to be really clear that it is not it is not just like something that we could like really easily do. um and and we don't know the cost of doing it and it would be costly for us to do it and it does not get to the heart of this
ordinance which is the valuation piece. So we're talking about getting the things repaired again I think that's really important. People want their things repaired and they want that done in a quick manner and so to be able to get it done by the city in an emergency repair timeline probably is quicker than any way that you could force it through the courts. Um but again it cost the city money but it does not affect the valuation piece which is that there we are determining ahead of time that it is zero dollars for your rent if you are in one of these inhabitable conditions.
And I also want to say that it is interesting to me that I read it I've read I went through it very in depth last night. Um it's a slightly different list. I think that there's I have some issues with the things that are and aren't included in the list. um the way that the attorney's office has written it. And I do also find that it's interesting that we're going to talk about more easily defendable when this is not a novel ordinance. We have it on the books and it has been on the books for over a decade in Charlotte and for
several years in Pittsboro and it has never been challenged. And so why would we change that that we know hasn't been challenged, make it something different in our code that doesn't actually do exactly the same thing and then say that we feel safer? I also want to say that of course the city attorney's role is to be risk averse. That is their role.
I mean I know that y'all hate that the being the office of the no. I know that we don't like that but that is that is their role. They are meant to be riskaverse and so they are going to present the most riskaverse thing to us. And so the question is, will we be bold?
And do we think that Durm residents deserve the same things that Pittsburgh and Charlotte residents already have? It's already there. It's not novel. They already have that. Do we think that it is worth taking an action, taking a stand, and ensuring that Durham has the same rights that people in Charlotte have? That's the question before us.
>> Gotcha. Um, let what I don't want to do is I don't want to oversimplify this, right? And I can appreciate, while frustrating, I can appreciate our city attorney's office being riskadverse. I agree with you.
Uh, but I also know that we've paid millions for cases that happened before I was even born. You were born. Anybody else on this council was born. There have been other cases where we've paid millions and millions.
We did the city attorney's evaluation this morning and I celebrated not even reaching a million dollars. So, I want to make sure that we are crossing every tea and dotting every eye. I think we all want the same outcome. As a matter of fact, I know we want to all want the same outcome.
Uh this is not a competition of who cares the most. It's a matter of being responsible because that's what we're elected to do. So, I I I
think we're all saying the same thing for the most part. It's just a matter of making sure we get it right the first time. Mr. Manager, I have a question.
Has there considering Charlotte and Pittsburgh? And I stepped out at the beginning of the conversation. Has there been any conversation with those administrations and how they have handled this? And and to council member Cook, to your point, they haven't been challenged in 10 years. know that that that 15 16 years I if they ever get challenged and they and they and they if they if it doesn't stand then they go back and retroactively look and say dang should we done should we have done something different we don't know that so I want to make sure since we are doing it that we're getting it right the first time and I hope that you and anyone else would appreciate trying to make sure that we are doing the due diligence for our residents that we're not setting them up later to have to pay a lot more
in case we do get challenged. So, we are discussing it now to try and get it right. Well, I wanted the manager to answer that ask because I'm I didn't I don't know if you all discussed it earlier, but if there are two administrations that have that that have this on the books, how is it? I want to be clear that uh we did check with both of those governments on the question of enforcability.
So the the question of whether or not the municipalities played a role in enforcing the ordinance and both municipalities have responded that they do not play an enforcement role with the with the prohibition that you're considering. Um the city of Charlotte is aware that it exists. Uh but the staff uh that that uh ACM Wallace uh spoke with said they do not they said they do uh occasionally deal with confusion on the parts of residents who believe that the city has an enforcement role uh and that that's an observation they could make. I spoke with the town manager of Pittsburgh. He
was unaware uh he's been in the office for several years. He is unaware that this uh prohibition is uh in the code of ordinances in Pittsburgh and he had no other comment. So to be clear, that is both administrations speaking to their role in forcing the ordinance. They would not be speaking to whether or not the ordinance itself has been challenged or questioned.
Uh unless that is something I missed and so that that's a summary of what we heard from both of those. >> Good. And that's helpful. I'm coming over.
Council member Cook. That's on the enforcement side. We're looking for a designation to support in case there is this condition to happen. Is that right?
>> I don't think I understand your question. >> Say again. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> I think the enforcability came up at the last work session. It w it's just it's
basically just an extra tool for tenants in court. That's what this is. that it's not really and and my understanding I am not an attorney on YouTube or anywhere else um um is uh that from a tenant attorney perspective it is an additional tool that allows them to get something from landlords that they wouldn't be able to get otherwise >> right so it's a designation of status of their conditions basically that's how I interpret it. >> I don't.
Yeah, sure. But so that that was brave that was from the city attorney's office last time and that was essentially one of the reasons that they were basically if I'm remembering correctly um Madam Attorney Rabberg at the time said in general our approach is we do not put ordinances down that we cannot enforce. That is just a legal philosophical uh um approach uh as to one of the reasons
that they were not um um did not their analysis did not when they looked at the original ordinance which is why the language now is a little bit different because they're like this is something that is there that can be enforced and so essentially has more teeth at the end of the day. >> Okay. Medicine >> brief. So one question then then it sort of comment.
So um understood from the manager that that these two cities do not enforce that but it is a tool that folks can use right. So I guess my question for attorney Hernandez is do you in your opinion with the uh here with the ordinance for rent prohibition that you've drafted in the memo could we enforce that? >> Yes. Um so the the option of nestling those enumerated conditions in the existing emergency repair section and I do want to note that the emergency repair authority is also in our charter so it comes from the general assembly.
So again a bit more bolstered there. Um so that's why our suggestion was okay if we do want to take more action um to address these conditions um we would we would suggest putting it in the existing emergency repair section. So that that was part of our thinking for that change from the previously proposed ordinance >> doing that. And then but in addition then still also having this this this uh ordinance that you did draft that would sort of that would complement that.
>> Right. So let's say you have the ordinance and it has section A B C D right okay so we're proposing in B titled emergency repairs. Let's add the specifics. And then in existing section G that already says it's unlawful for a landlord to occupy a dwelling that is considered uninhabitable. Referencing those enumerated conditions. It's yeah, it's unlawful to occupy for the landlord
to occupy for a tenant to occupy and to collect rent for occupancy. And that collecting rent from occupancy is the language we added to fulfill um the in the potential intent of council to try to have a rent prohibition. And we felt that the language of saying you cannot charge rent for occupancy is similar to um it is unlawful to charge rent. But again it's based on it is unsafe to occupy an uninhabitable dwelling.
And we can say that based on public safety principles. It is different to say you cannot charge rent for unsafe dwellings. >> Gotcha. Gotcha.
Gotcha. And then the So I guess my comment is, you know, I think the advantage we have here is that we are we are a deliberative body, right? We're not a court of law. And what it feels like here a little bit is we've got like these competing legal arguments back and forth, one or the other. It seems to me, and I'd recommend to the mayor, seems to me that what we've not done is have city attorney, council
cook, the tenants union sit down together and work this out, figure out what language they all can agree on. To me, that seems more more effective than sort of this kind of back and forth kind of legal arguments, sort of one versus the other. Can we not do that? So, that that's my recommendation.
>> Well, that's that's sort of where I was headed with it. uh referring it back to the attorney's office to take a look at the but maybe it would be even more sat down together and talked about it. I just want to get it right. It sounds like we we're getting really close based on what >> Yes, >> if I may.
Mayor, I I just want to object a little bit to this dueling competing characterization. We are not competing or dueling with with anyone. We have done an analysis that we think is um you know founded in the law and in our research. But again, um, you know, you are the policy decision makers and so us sitting down with other individuals for us to decide the language.
Um, I I I don't know that that's appropriate. We've proposed some language. You've
heard alternatives. Um, I I don't want to put us in a position to say this is what you all should do. >> Let me do this. Uh, you all should not do that.
I take that back. I will convene a committee. Council Mook, I'm going to ask you. Uh, would you be interested in working with this committee?
>> I have I feel like I've been really generous with time and also opportunity for council members to discuss with me. I sent you this memo several weeks before our first work session that we talked about it. So, it's now been in your email box for almost three months at this time. No one has reached out to me.
Um, this is not something I feel like we can wait on. People are literally dying from this stuff. This is not This isn't a question to me. So, I I'm happy to sit down and talk with folks. I would like it to continue to be on the meeting and happy to put it on GBA. Um, I want to point out that um a couple of issues with the ordinance that
um has and and I also want to say this is literally the we are up here to deliberate and sometimes it's going to be on things that we don't know as much about. I have to sit up here and deliberate on transportation which is something that I had never done before I got on this council. Right? I mean this is this is part of our work and I'm not trying to be any kind of way about it but like sometimes we are going to have to deliberate on legal heavy issues and so I think that we are doing a good job of deliberating but I do also think that the community deserves a decision on this as it's been presented.
Um I want to add to your statement earlier about it just being a tool for tenants. This is also a tool that is helpful for the city. Um, it incentivizes landlords to make repairs faster. It saves us the cost of having to do those repairs for them. Um, and I want to push back a little bit against how it's written in the city attorney's ordinance because there has to be a finding there of who's responsible, landlord or tenant, when we've got a list in our ordinance and
the one that has been drafted by the students and has been looked over by um many advocates in the community and is being used in two major municipalities. Uh, that just lists the things that are uninhabitable and dangerous in that moment. Um, so for me, given the lack of response up until this moment, I don't feel comfortable pushing it out again. Um, I think that it should be voted on and I'm happy to put it on GBA.
And if if we want to take a vote and then we want to rework it later on, that's totally fine. Um, but at this moment, the ordinance as it sits is the strongest. It's not novel again. As I said, it hasn't been challenged and I would like for it to be heard.
>> I understand. And with all due respect, you're right. This is a deliberative body and the time of the council does not function solely on your clock and I mean that respectfully. I'm in I'm inviting you to be amongst a committee to work to get this right. You can choose to do that or not. And this is a deliberative body and if your colleagues are not ready then the body is not ready
and I want to make sure we get it right. I it doesn't matter how long it's been in anyone's inbox. So, I I trust me, I've been really frustrated about how long things have taken. It's been years and we're still talking about gun violence, and we've yet to do it.
We've taken action against, but we haven't taken action for. So, I totally get that. So, with that being said, I uh I do want to pass it over to Council Member Baker because he has to go. Um Okay.
>> Yeah. Thank you. I I also support putting it on GBA. I think we all want to uh and care about uh being good stewards of the city and city resources being responsible when it comes to the law and and yes there preeemption is real.
Preeemption is something that we need to be worried about and thinking about. Um there's uh there are laws on the books. Rent control explicitly prohibited. Um, I'm an urban planning
consultant and so I work in a lot of different municipalities uh across mostly across the south but definitely uh across North Carolina. I've worked in a lot of different municipalities and city attorney's offices in each of these municipalities determine the legality of things differently. Some of them think certain things are legal while they think those same things are illegal uh in other in other places. So there are different ways of inter interpreting the law that are interpreted differently in different places.
There are also uh there are also policies that are interpreted the same but are acted upon differently um in different places and so at a certain point it does just come to to a decision uh about how to move forward on something. Um, I don't want this. I like the language that has been uh uh drafted uh by the city attorney's office
around emergency repairs. Um, I also think that to move forward cautiously, we want to understand our staff resources and being able to uh use that. But I also think that this is an important tool for uh for tenants. And so I don't want this to go away.
I I want us to uh you know get get folks comfortable with it and then move forward when people are comfortable with it. So that's what I'll say. Thank you. >> And I totally agree with everything you just said.
I think that that's we're all saying the same thing and I I I want to keep that at the forefront and I think Council Member Baker, you just articulated it very well. Um Comm. >> Thank you. Um Mr.
mayor. Um, so I'm not an attorney and I'm not I'm not a planner, but I am a product of public housing. Uh, and and I remember uh I remember the conditions we had to battle against and how tough it was sometimes to get folk to respond. Um, so
I'm I'm I'm extremely grateful uh for for the passion um that council member Cook I wish we had people this passionate when I was growing up in public housing um around these issues. Um so I want to say that uh publicly. I um I don't want to oversell Charlotte, but I don't want to underell it either because it does exist and somebody there saw some value in having it on the books even if they weren't going to enforce it. Um I think that the it's it hasn't been challenged because it hasn't been enforced.
I think the outcome would be different if Charlotte actually tried to enforce it. But with that said, the spectre of it still exists in Charlotte. Um, so the question becomes, what did our friends in Charlotte in Pittsburgh see in the value of even raising the spectre? And if there's there's any if if if value's been
derived from it. Uh and and one of the questions I have is does does your alternative language in the ordinance does that in any way do violence to the the the spectre that the one that council member in other does it minimize if if it's on the books as we have proposed it with an enforceable component does it also still cross that threshold where landlords are now kind of on you know notice or uh it it still has that tool value to um folk who go to court. Uh if the proposed language meets that test of being a tool and still goes beyond it with enforcability, then that seems to me a a superior position to be in. If it does violence to that or minimizes whatever that effect of the tool is, then I think we should look at uh the one that council member Cook um has proposed. I also want to say, you know, with respect, the fact that another memo was submitted to us by
definition implies continued consideration. Regardless of how we talk to each other outside, this is the moment when we're called together, we declare quorum that we have this deliberative process. And anyone that has brought something additional for us to consider, I don't think should be surprised if we can't give it full treatment. I mean, you submitted it for treatment.
Um, and if this is the place where we treat things, then I don't I don't think we should view wanting to an opportunity to actually digest it and integrate it as kicking the can. I mean, you brought it to us and in order to, you know, one lawyer up here, the rest of us aren't. So, to read it and digest it in this context and then act on it in this context, I think by definition, you want us to read it and consider it. But even with that aside, um the fact that Charlotte has it, uh whether they enforce it or not, um suggest to me that some folks saw some value in it. Some of fellow electeds saw some value in it. Um and as a uh if if if if
there's a value in it, uh if we're going to do like Charlotte and not enforce it, you know, I'm one of those folk who I I don't like passing laws just for the sake of passing laws. Yeah, but we're also living in a time where folk are ignoring laws that already exist. Um, and we're seeing that, you know, writ large, uh, in our national on our national stage. So, I say all that to say, um, I'm comfortable with it being on GBA and and going forward.
Um, I'm also comfortable with further uh, discussion. I mean, if I have to vote, I'm no stranger to putting forward controversial positions that I'm impatient about don't seem to take it uphill, though. So, I I appreciate Council Member Cook's passion um around this issue. Um and I appreciate, you know, thinking that something will save people's lives and having to continually talk about it. So, so I I I understand uh that pyos, if you will, around it. Um
but I think each of my colleagues are honest. I think the mayor's on to something in terms of crafting language that we can all agree upon. But I also uh you know, if we have to move forward uh on it, I'm comfortable with uh uh moving forward uh with it uh on GBA. Um I think that if we're going to put ourselves in league with Charlotte uh and if it provides some type of tool, I don't know what successes folk in Charlotte have had uh using it.
I don't know what the outcomes have had. Um, but in so far as it exists, um, coupled with Council Member Cook's, um, passion around this and my own experience having grown up in public housing, um, I can live with it being on GBA. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
>> Sounds good. For the sake of time, um, I I'm I'm okay with it going on GBA as well. I do want to spend some time in and pulling these documents together and getting it right. Um, but I I won't rush to do something by chance, but I will uh put in the effort to make sure we can do
it right. Um, I think that's only fair to everyone. And again, it's seven people on this council, and I want us to be able to respect that. So, I I want to be pushed by Council Member Cook.
I want to be cautious by our the people we pay a salary to advise us on. I I do agree with Council Member Cook. You all are very riskadverse. I know you don't like that, but it's your job to do that to keep us out of jail, keep us from being, you know, sued to sued to crap.
So, I appreciate that. And we as polycy makers are our nickname is chance takers, you know. Um, but I want to make sure we can get it right and and and I I just want to make sure that I'm providing space for all of us to uh to endure that. >> So, just be clear.
So, so the motion that would go forward at this point looks like the GVA would be the motion to add the new subcategory as proposed by Council Mook. That's the motion that would be on GBA. >> Not necessarily. Uh in the memo as well. >> Well, we would deliberate it there and
determine because I I'm actually looking at the alternative and I also want to read the memo that was given. I'm I'm just not prepared to move forward right now. I mean, well, we're not voting on it right now, but I'm not prepared. I really want some time to um to be able to compare the language and speak with the attorney's office on it.
Um, >> so, so I'm still unclear. So what? So what will be on GBA? >> I think on GBA would be two motions for two different resolutions.
That would be my understanding, but maybe I'm incorrect. Right. Not resol ordinances. Sorry.
For two different ordinances. >> Now to give us some time. >> Yeah. Council member Cook, uh the the proposed in your um assessment, the proposed language from the the uh city attorney's office, the alternative, does does that do any violence to the tool um thing that that your language does it in any way minimize it being a tool that
tenants can use? >> I do worry that it does. Um so for a couple of reasons. The the first is that the list of items is slightly different.
It's not vastly different, but it is slightly different. And some of the things that are included or not included, I think are important to distinguish between. Um, and then the other >> is that a simple on that is that a simple fix? We just sort of like we get those to agree.
>> Um, I don't I don't know. Um, but my understanding is that they worked with the code enforcement officers and that was the list that y'all came up with. Um, the one that the one it Yeah. I mean, we can we that it doesn't feel like a huge deal, but I'm just noting the fact that those are discrepancies there. Um, there are some issues within the way that that it's written here. So, you see on the amended um ordinance that's written in the
attorney's memo on the last page that there's a lot of crossed out lines. um those that's not relevant actually to anything that we're talking about. I they were just going to amend it while we were talking about it was sort of the the thought process. So this actually follows um a recent uh Senate bill uh that took out some of the teeth from NIS or from local local governments using our um our inspectors.
So the crossing out is not relevant. So, it's actually just the part that's added in with the underlines. You interrupt me if I'm saying anything incorrect. Um, so I do think that there might be some issues with putting it here. Um, and it's I mean we putting the including collecting rent for occupancy um into this section about permission to occupy. I do think that it is it doesn't have the same strength as having an entire section on
its own. Um, and I and then I I said this earlier, but there's also a question of like who is responsible in this because if there's going to have to be a hearing and a landlord is going to have to show that they did not keep this up, then there also might be a finding that a tenant contributed or didn't contribute and it might take away from the ability to say that the valuation is zero. So, I do think that there there are issues the way that this is included. you want to respond >> if I can, Council Member Cook?
Um, so as far as the enumerated conditions being slightly different, I I want to make clear that um that was from staff that do this work. And so this is not the city attorney's office saying these are the conditions we think we trust staff, the ones who see, you know, thousands of these cases a year. um and based on the Durham housing stock to have created a list that they feel meets those standards in light of what's in the statute in light what was in Charlotte.
Um and so I I just want to make clear that I'm not advocating for, you know, whether a chimney flew this way or that way is an imminently dangerous condition because I don't have that subject matter expert. But we did consult with housing code administrator uh Clarence Harris who is here. Um, and it was a list that came from the staff that do this work. Um, so that as far as the conditions and the differences, that's where that came from.
Um, and then as far as uh, remind me of your second point. >> I did I don't think I did a good job explaining it. So, I want to say it a little bit better. The issue for me is the unlawful to occupy language that's already in there.
And so what I don't want to happen is that there to be a finding that it is unlawful to occupy and for us to have people being con constructively evicted from their housing based on this language. Right? So if part of the enforcement mechanism here is like no one should be living in this house like that that to me is is
not written in my ordinance and for very important reason because a lot of people if they could move they would move right like this is a question that I always get in court. It's like if your habitability is so bad, why didn't you just move? If people could move, they would move. They would move their kids out of like moldinfested places, right?
Um, so a lot of people like don't have the ability to move. There is some statutory language uh if you prove your case that a landlord then can be responsible for recouping you for putting you up in a hotel or something otherwise. But the language in this makes me leerary that people are going to be displaced or that there might be some question about um who's responsible for who to go where and the cost of those things. And so it this is this language makes me feel anxious >> which brings us back to withholding rent but still staying in the place.
Right. >> Right. >> And the and the operative part is that it's not you're not allowed to withhold rent. The landlord is not allowed to collect it. >> And there in lies the rub of my question. If if if I if if we mimic Charlotte who does not enforce
and then we have language from our our own attorneys which is enforceable but may result in displacement. I I think I think struggling to to make the the best decision for our people um is where we are. And I I I find compelling. I mean, I I I found your whole argument compelling about giving folk um a tool.
Um, and to the mayor's point about it not being symbolic, when I hear that there's something we can give you a tool that's actually enforceable as well beyond symbolism, then then how do we do that without bringing further further harm? But it seems that the one that would be enforceable, council member Cook suggests that it could could result in harm. But it gets us back to to symbolism where where and I I guess that that's what what
would be best um for our folk and if if if symbolism at this point is the best we can do providing a tool raising the spectre at least that something may happen to you as a landlord and again I don't know how e uh the efficacy of this I don't know any any results in Charlotte I think I asked last time you know I think it was uh an attorney spoke to one case that had happened in Charlotte where and I I wasn't clear as to whether or not the person won or you know um but even with that aside um that's why I say I don't want to oversell what's happened but if there's some power we can give to our folk um via this then I I certainly uh would come down on it but you know to the mayor's point if it's just going to be symbolic then we should say that and not we should manage expectations um and if we're going to enforce and But it's going to do harm. Then that's another discussion. You were going to say something, council member. I'll yield.
>> I I thought I'm sorry. I thought you were. >> Council member Gabo.
>> Oh, I think if I could clarify, the city attorney's office did not add language about the unlawful occupancy. That already exists in our code. That already is unlawful. So that that's that's not an addition on the city attorney's part.
That is not the proposed ordinance that we're putting forward. That's not language we we added. So, I just wanted to clarify that. >> And we do not enforce that.
>> An important piece. >> Oh, >> we have something we don't enforce. >> Yeah. And then I said that earlier too, right?
We we levy those fines and we never collect them, right? We have lots of things that we don't enforce all throughout this statute actually. So, >> okay. But my understanding was the unlawful to occupy.
The reason that you were raising it was because it was in the draft ordinance that city attorney's office put, but it's not. >> They actually just copied and pasted the ordinance as it's currently written. And
then the part that you see underlined, they've added, and the part that you see crossed out, they're suggesting to take away. So everything in that ordinance is already in existence. Mhm. >> So their suggestion is to change the language of the existing ordinance as opposed to adding a new ordinance.
Right. So theirs, I guess, would be a motion to amend an ordinance and mine would be a motion for a new ordinance. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> So we're back to like >> mayor, can you like not bring folks together to sort of this feels like word smithing, right? Like can we not get together and figure out some language we all can agree on? My question >> if if I may just uh the in addition you're correct uh Councilman Cook with regard to the the uh red lining or or black lining that's shown for the section um 10-241. Um however added to the ordinance would be um what's shown on two pages before that is is um section D2 under the emergency repairs. All of that is new.
Um and so that would be um in they go together because one references the other. So so uh just wanted to clarify that point. >> Yeah, thank you for saying that and I meant to say that asked that question earlier. So if we added them into y'all suggestion is to add them into emergency repairs and then we would then be on the hook for potentially having an emergency meeting following that that emergency protocol and then potentially fixing those issues.
We would get both with this automatically. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
And so I already see the manager's mic is on, so I'm just gonna let >> I just want to be clear, we as the council member has has clearly stated before, and I appreciate her bringing it up. Uh the program that we have, the only emergency repairs that uh we have uh enforced under the ordinance have been uh heating related. Uh the those are done at the city's expense. There is the ability to levy a lean that only is
repaid. So essentially this is a budget line item that is currently not budgeted. The discussion about the city remediating additional expenses would need significant staff analysis and likely an injection of new resources. So I appreciate council member putting that on the table and I just want to make it clear that that is not because these are alternatives proposed in the attorney's memo.
This has not been referred to the staff for a full analysis and we would appreciate that opportunity if that's the direction council would like to go. it seemed. Okay, so two things. When we, and this is not a tangent, I promise.
When we adopted our tax relief program, the model with Charlotte, did we take Charlotte's and just put it in Durham or did we have to tailor it to Durham? >> Tailor, we tailored it. Pretty sure >> that's a question. >> Um, I'm pretty certain we did do some tailoring. >> Okay. It seems like between what I'm hearing from city manager here around staff be
and I think and I appreciate all the advocacy. People come with us for ideas from all we have a very engaged community um and our job as as as electeds is to you know ciphle through things. I appreciate council member Cook's uh um bringing this forward. Um, but then the other side of this is if we to me it seems like potentially the win would be figuring out some compromise between the amended ordinance and the new ordinance.
Uh, I appreciate that the list that's listed there in the in the city attorney's memo is relevant to Durham. It's based on our experts here. It's not that matters to me. like I'm going to trust the folks who are out in the field looking at code enforcement and what their list is. Like that makes sense to me because those are the folks who see the stuff all the time. Um the the additional part of that though is that while the city attorney's office has
given their opinion on the legality of things, we have not done the job of what would actually take to make this enforceable on either side. Right? Like to me the point is not to I get that in court this is important but the the more important part for me is did the thing get fixed and are people living in this or not right and to council member Cook's point yes like we know that folks can't afford to move they would have moved if they could afford to move the the reason they're leaning on their landlord to fix a thing is because they that's that's the rent that they can afford. Um, so I I'm want to make sure that whatever we do is actually useful, right?
Uh, on the city side, too, as far as why I mean, we have code code enforcement and we have a lot of authority there and we need to utilize it. So, um, I understand the urgency of it. I'm not I mean, obviously there's an urgency.
This is the third time that this has been brought forward as far as tenants, you know, organizing and advocating for changes. uh since I've been on council, clearly there's urgency. Um and we've had to tailor things accordingly each round. Um so I'm fine with it being on GBA, but I don't we're going to it's going to be a long night.
That's all I'm saying. >> I think I just want to ask manager I think you were in terms of budget. I want to make sure you completed your thought on that. You said we don't have so we essentially pay for this and then what we can do is we put a lean on the property which we then can recoup at what point so I prefer housing and neighborhood services describe in detail how we enforce so there were there were two different elements of that program as I understand it one is uh you know is citing the emergency repair another is taking action to have a contractor remediate the repair those are two different things Mr. Harris is available
and I'd ask him to talk in a little bit more detail about those factors and feel free to correct me if I got any of that wrong. >> Good afternoon, Mr. Mayor, council, city manager. Uh no, that that was correct.
Uh when we perform emergency repair conditions, uh we remediate the the violations and and more more so uh repair heating systems. Uh what that consists of we actually contract out those services. Uh once we contract out those services and the repairs have been implemented, we actually lean the property and invoice the property owner. Uh we do we make the property owner aware of the conditions. Uh we do communicate or collaborate with landlords and help as an effort to uh to expedite uh conditions, but the the property owner is held liable for for the invoice or or the conditions of a repair. uh once the property is leaned uh we do work with finance department uh for uh potential tax foreclosure
processes. Uh so those are the the activities that take place for recouping the the funds. >> Just so I understand. So so you invoice the landlord.
>> We we invoice the property owner. >> Property owner correct. And so if they don't pay you in a reasonable amount of time then you put a lean on the or do you >> we place a lean on the property immediately after uh the repairs have been implemented. So the invoice and the lean process takes takes place simultaneously >> and then once they assuming they pay then then the lean is taken off.
>> That's correct. >> Otherwise it remains on there. >> Correct. >> And the and then our only recourse with a lean would be ultimately we'd have to wait till the property either for closes or sells or whatever.
That's correct. >> So it is a sort of cash flow thing. We got to front the cash and then hope we get either paid back or with a lean. >> Yes.
Well, I I have not done a deep dive on this. My understanding is the vast majority of those invoices are not collected. Leans are filed, but uh but there has not been tax foreclosure pursued. So, in practicality, as it exists now, and again, I haven't done a deep dive. In practicality, this is a
budget line item that the city would need to forward fund if an substantial expansion of repairs, and there may be staff resources necessary as well. All right. Are we all good? >> So, yeah, the item on GBA, what are what's the what what are we going to are we is it to be determined what we'll be actually voting on GBA?
So, we'll make that clear. I I was just want to just want to clarify that the uh this the al the language the city the city attorney's office came up with as an alternative is not is not officially on the GBA is not officially an item before you. It's something that we put forward for your consideration. Right now, the the only uh item that's on the the the
agenda is uh Council Member Cook's uh provision. >> We can make or can we make adjustments at night if we say, "All right, we just want the alternative. " >> Uh I mean, that's per your rules. Um, as I it's my understanding that that would have to be proposed and there would have to be some consensus among the council to do that.
Um, whether or not you need to wait a cycle or not. Uh, >> and that's why I was asking because it's in the work session today. It's in this agenda today. So, we shouldn't have to wait. If we can come to a consensus in our next meeting uh >> before that >> right before that then I mean the information what if we're going to talk about the proposed ordinance versus the alternative they're both on this agenda and we have seen both of them in this meeting we can determine which one we want that night >> I don't think >> unless there is a difference in language >> I don't and correct me if I'm wrong
attorney Lamar what I think that is that ordinance was these are this is a potential option for an for alternative language. At the last work session, we asked the attorney's office to provide that and they've provided it, but they haven't done the work with staff to determine what it would cost, how it would be enforced. It's not like a ready to go ordinance. Not in the way that the research has already been done on the ordinance that's in front of us.
So, it's not technically on the agenda, and I don't know that it's ready or would be ready in two weeks to be on the agenda. Um this ordinance that is on the agenda has we've been working on it for over a year. Um so the research has been done people have been just talked to and we kind of understand the mechanisms that would be needed to enforce it. So I >> I can appreciate that. Again, I I mean, I don't know who the people are when you're saying the people, you know, and and I know that there are good people and they've done a lot of work, but once we pass this and make it ordinance, it's
law, >> right? I understand that. I think what I'm saying is that I think that we put this on GBA and we either say yes or no, but I don't think the other ordinance is it's not been brought before us in a work session as a formal ordinance and I don't think it's ready to come before us as at a council meeting >> which is why I was saying refer back to staff and get it right rather than having to vote it down and we know what signals that send. >> Um I I prefer refer back to staff, get it right and then we actually have a single ordinance that we all agree on and then we make we actually make a vote.
Yeah. And and my counter to that again is that when you say sitting down, I have been meeting with the attorney's office about this for a long time. The students at Riverside have a whole email chain going back and forth with the attorney's office. There work has been done by tenants unions over years on this ordinance.
Um so the work has been put into this ordinance. We had already agreed to have it heard today. I would ask that it stay on GBA as it is. If it's not what we want to move forward on given the information that you've
received from the community and from the city's attorney's office and whoever, then we vote no and we and we write something different. But I think it's we've done the work to put it on. Y'all've given us a thumbs up to have it. We've got all these folks who've come out and speak on it and I'm prepared to move it forward.
I mean, I I know you are, but I again, just because there was people that was spoken on it doesn't mean, okay, now we have to move it forward. So, you want it on GBA, I'm saying, let's send it back to staff, get it right, and on the next cycle, we put it forward. Um, because I I want the same thing you want out of this. I just want to make sure that we are crossing all our G's and dotting all of our eyes.
>> And just a point just a point of procedural clarification. I mean, in in so far as the staff's alternative language has appeared in this work session, it's well within our purview if we wanted to choose between each one or amend the language or that's what the work session's for. Um, if
>> No, no, I get it. I mean, if it's a point of we haven't done enough due diligence, I certainly understand that that argument, but it's no violation of procedure if we wanted to, you know, uh, substitute or change the language of of it. I just want to be clear. Not that I'm saying that we should do that, but I'm just simply saying from a procedural point of view, there's there's no violation.
It would well within our purview um to, you know, adopt what we want or put dueling ones forward or or so. Yeah. >> Yeah. Just from the rules standpoint, we actually just changed the rules to eliminate uh our rules that that allowed introducing an item and then voting on it the night of.
>> However, that doesn't prohibit us from suspending the rules and introducing something and and voting on it. Robert's rules procedures. >> We're in a work session on Monday night. >> No, no, no.
Yeah. I'm just speaking to Monday night, >> right? And we did we charged the staff to come back today at this work session. So anything we're seeing today relative to this item was charged at a previous
work session. So we're well within Yeah. >> I guess is on GBA, >> right? >> This this >> amended, >> right?
This ordinance with the possibility of making amendments to it. All right. I'm tired. Thank you, Mr.
Baker. We'll see you next time. >> Okay, let's uh let's move on. We still have four presentations.
>> Oh, and more >> 10 13 14. >> Well, which one's next? >> 10. >> No, no, you have number >> number nine.
>> Unless you want to do the presentations in >> uh No, let's do let's do the pulled items first and then >> there is a speaker on number. >> That's what I was trying to find. Sorry. Oh, >> I thought number nine was a presentation.
>> It is. It is. >> So, I'll acknowledge the speaker then.
>> The presentation. >> Yeah, the speaker at the presentation. >> Do you want to go? >> So, yeah, I I had pulled 10, I think, along with council member.
So, >> all right. So, number 10. >> Okay, >> Lee, I'm coming to you. >> Okay.
Sorry, I'm pulling up my notes. Um, okay. So, um, this is the second amendment we've seen in not very long. Um, and it has been, we increased by 2 million on August the 18th.
This increase is another over a million dollars. Um, that's almost half of the entire contract or we've increased it by like 40% by this time. Um I I want to understand I guess why um why we're seeing that large of a of an amendment. And I also like within the context of it being project delivery which isn't specified. So I feel like we
normally hear about consulting work because we have like really specified things that we might not have like expertise on in staff. And I read in the memo that there was a lot of staff turnover. Um, I also noted that the memo was almost identical to the one that we saw in August. So, I'm just a little bit confused about why we're seeing this again so very soon with the same language and another humongous amount.
Um, and um why I guess we can't be on track with our staff or what's going on with staffing that's that's creating this need. A multi-part question and if I was in a courtroom, someone would have said compound question, objection, but sorry. >> Thank you for your question. C can I just add my question to yours so I put them all in the in the bin so >> to make it worse.
Go ahead. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Not to pile on. So right. So we agree with Council Member Cook. We this we heard this one recently something like this.
We hear that general services is managing managing over 100 projects worth over $350 million. Right. And we hear the concerns about or what you've said about staff
turnover and so forth. Um so we keep adding capacity by consultants to do this project management work. I guess my question would be either for you in general services or for the manager is at some point is is this the most efficient way to do this work right because there's also so it seems like we've got project management capacity that we've built in general services to serve other agency or other departments across the city like transportation like DPR is maybe there a more efficient way to do this where we where we locate project managers in departments not in general services so they can be closer to the work and do the work more efficiently that's a question I don't know the answer but I'm ask the Um, Henry Prosper, General Services. Thank you for your questions.
So, I think it's less about the dollar value than it is about the staff capacity. We have five full-time staff uh members in our department um and our division. Um, so we do have 100 projects. Typically, project managers manage about 10 projects a piece. So, it's we think it's a thoughtful strategy to efficiently deliver these trail projects, which we know there's a lot of emphasis on. Um,
so it's it's less about the price, Council Member Cook, than it is about the strategy to efficiently deliver these projects given our current workload and our current and staff capabilities. We also try to marry up the projects uh with staff's uh experience level. And so we're also the the portfolio is not static. We're we're constantly taking on new projects throughout the year.
Uh we've had a lot of maintenance replacement projects that we've gotten. Uh we've also had uh the storm the Shantel. We've had a lot of deferred maintenance projects that come into the division from from that process. So we're really trying to marry up uh the projects with our current staff experience.
And so we believe this is a thoughtful strategy to efficiently deliver these trail projects. Um it's generally this is a five-year contract with Turner Towns and Harry. It's a service agreement uh that we went through a per uh purchasing cooperative agreement to get them on board. Typically the life cycle of projects is well over five years. So we believe this is the most efficient strategy to
deliver these based on a lot of the recent conversation that we've had specifically on trails, right? >> And so I mean I guess to follow up on my questions, it's like we just saw this huge increase like a month and a half ago. Why did we not know a month and a half ago that we were going to need an additional million dollars? Like are we expecting to see this increase come every two months?
Like what what I just I hear what you're saying, but I'm like I'm struggling because it's also a huge expenditure. >> Yeah. Uh and I can appreciate that. And I think really just to be candid um this is definitely a new strategy.
I mean we are constantly looking at our existing portfolio, the number of projects we have. We hear from discussions and feedback with city council that we want to efficiently deliver these projects and this is we think this is the most thoughtful strategy to to efficiently deliver them. I can't say with what frequency we will be coming back with these amendments um just given again the current portfolio. This is a good pivot based on our current staff capacity and experience level to get these trail
projects delivered. is is there at a certain point it becomes less economical to have a consultant than it does to hire staff. Um can you just talk a little bit about the balance of those two things and what y'all have discussed around that? >> It's it's always a balance.
I think that we're um we're we're constantly looking for new strategies to retain and hire new project managers. And I think really having this service agreement gives us the ability to pivot much quicker than it would be to trying to go out and recruit staff. I think from my perspective, I mean, we would prefer to have staff uh on in within our division, but uh we've had uh difficulties maintaining staff and also recruiting new staff. So I I I can appreciate what you're saying as far as like hiring new staff. That would be I think the ideal situation and I think you know we have to just collectively discuss those strategies and how we can accomplish
bringing people inhouse and still getting this portfolio delivered. >> Yeah. >> Can Yeah. >> Yeah.
Can I just finish my statement which is and I and we'll turn it over to you but it >> I don't feel comfortable with this. It's just um given that we had like literally no change from the last amend. I mean it's like literally identical word for word like the paragraphs are identical. Um I hear you saying that there's a new strategy.
It it just feel I I'm having a bit of discomfort about it. I don't feel like I have enough information to sort of like make a determination on that. And then when you I hear you say that there might be further amendments that are coming forward. Um, and I don't know if I the manager is making some hand motions that someone else might want to speak on it. Um, I'm I'm feeling uncomfortable about this and and especially that if we like sort of keep approving these amendments that we're just like going to keep getting them in these frankly like large they're large amounts of money. Um, but yeah, go ahead.
>> Yeah. And my question is I don't think my question has been answered about you know would it be more efficient? We hear that we hear that other departments like parks and wreck or transportation have to work with general services to get project management capacity. Would it not be more efficient to embed a project manager at DPR at transportation to be closer to the work so they don't have to negotiate with general services to get the project manager?
So is that is that something that's been considered? >> Um good afternoon Gina Propes, deputy city manager. I want to put a little bit of context around um the cost and the strategy. Um so uh school um public school systems use um a a very similar um process where they will have contract services as well as in-house staff. So um universities and um other local municipalities water management is using this um is using contract services and project management um services as well as um public works to help deliver our streets and sidewalks projects. So
there's a um in-house staff and contract services also >> water management and >> public works excuse me environmental >> in-house and contract services to manage projects. I meant to say envir >> well these are the delivery departments that that have project managers delivering projects. >> What about like transportation? >> Transportation doesn't typically deliver.
They they come to general services or environmental street services deliver the street project or the sidewalk project. They're the they get the funding, they do the early design and then it goes to a delivery department to execute with a project manager. 4 four or five% of the overall project budget. So when we um
look at the the value proposition, I wanted to put it in that perspective that the cost to the city is 3% of the overall um um value to pay for services to help our projects move quicker and faster. Um let's see, I think you had another question about being embedded. So the project managers are embedded in our department and they deliver for other um departments. >> But what if what if they were in other departments and delivered for those departments?
>> Pardon? >> What if they were in other departments? >> I don't know that it changes where you sit doesn't change what you do, >> right? But but it but >> but if one department's got to negotiate with general services to get that capacity versus just having the person in there on the org chart.
>> So let me let me take a shot at that. So I think the administration is responsible for delivering the projects and and ultimately I'm accountable for where we put those resources and how we do it. I think there's an efficiency that we gain by having uh departments
deliver like projects and so frequently DPR uh general services other departments who use general services to deliver projects are building facilities. They're building vertical amenities and so we have put those in a department. There's no magic to it. uh but I don't think there that the challenges uh that council has given voice to around project delivery uh change substantially from department to department.
Ultimately if there are new resources that's really the difference. It's not where we put them. It's just that there are new resources. So additional project managers what we have to respond to is the reality that uh in a very competitive construction market uh the city has struggled to maintain uh and fill the vacancies and keep consistently in project managers much like we have in other key positions across the city where we with each of those positions implement strategies to try and add the capacity to deliver projects or deliver services at the behest of the council. This is a
recommendation that we bring forward because the council has uh been very clear on on a strong emphasis and desire to move projects more quickly uh frequently to the point I I believe not not to put a point on it but I think council has said what could we do to deliver projects more quickly and this is the answer to that. I I will say that over the last uh 6 weeks to 8 weeks uh uh deputy city manager propes and myself have had in-depth discussions about every single component of our project delivery process in-house external and uh those conversations are going to continue. Those resource conversations are going to continue. This additional contract is a direct result of some of those conversations and conversations this council has had within the last 6 weeks about what is the best strategy to keep these projects moving forward. I do want to make clear I think Gina made a very important point. This is a fraction of the total size of these projects and
that is usually how uh project delivery resources are are presented. So, uh, one thing I will take back from this conversation is I'm not sure that we presented that context to you as effectively as we could have had in this item, but in, you know, in the course of many projects, when we bring the capital project forward, it includes a contract for project delivery resources embedded in the project. So, we bring you a project that's a 20 or $30 million project and we say and X% of that project will be for project delivery. in this case the because we are spreading these resources over many projects you are just seeing an item that is a standalone item and you're reacting to the sticker shock and I understand that and I agree that's a context question but as far as this being a dramatic escalation it it is not it it was a retooling of our approach for the existing portfolio of projects that the council has seen and wants delivered quickly and us bringing you our strongest and most you know I think
thoughtful recommendation on how to do that more quickly. You do not have to approve this item. Uh and we will rely on staff resources at that time. I I believe that we'll we will be more challenged under that scenario to deliver these projects on the timeline you present.
I also do not think that this represents a cost escalation to these projects. It is using the resources in the CIP that we have available. Uh so, you know, it is this is not taking away from something else. uh but it is prioritizing our resources here because we know we can acquire these project management resources immediately through this contract versus a recruitment and retention strategy that is going to take longer to implement. So again, I I want to make it clear that council does not have to approve this, but we believe this is responsive to direction we've received and approving this will not in any way lessen the intensity of our conversation to uh review our current project delivery practices and to build as much uh in-house capacity as as possible to
deliver projects as quickly as possible. That is a clear priority from the council and one that while it will take a little time, it is one that is proceeding alongside our efforts to deliver the projects that are in the pipeline. >> Council member uh Cook and then council member Kabayar. >> I just want to be really clear about a statement you just made because the alternatives that is listed in our memo says council could elect not to approve the proposed amendment.
If the amendment is not approved, it will not be possible to advance timely all the projects for which city council has approved funding. I I believe that I believe that is consistent with my comment that we will not be at timely timely being the key word in that conversation. We will keep all of the projects in the portfolio. I think they will compete more for staff resources and that will make it more challenging to deliver those in a timely fashion.
We will continue to work on all of the projects. We will need to prioritize the time without the contract resources. >> Okay. And when when y'all make these decisions, and I'm assuming that this happens somewhere in the world that I'm not watching, but like there is a cost
analysis of like timeliness as compared to what the what the amendment is going to cost. Like we're going to get it a week earlier for $7 million I assume is not going to be valuable to us, but like there is some threshold where the time is valuable and like how is that balanced and who makes how is that decision made? Do we have like a matrix? Do Am I saying words that make sense?
Y'all are looking at me like I'm not saying words that make >> You're saying words that make sense. Okay, great. You are saying where I think that um I can say we do not have a per se matrix. I think I can say generally that you know the time if we had a vacancy and the time to you know fill a vacancy could take up to six months.
So what is the value of six months on a project that's not being delivered? is the outcome of a project not progressing because you don't have a resource to lead that endeavor. So I think it's more um about the cascading impacts when you don't have folks that
are actively leading on these projects all at at this at the same time. So if you have if you have more projects than for a project manager um that's capable then you have a you have a delivery and capacity problem. So something you can't do it all at the same time. I mean you have to you have to rightsize.
So I should I Yeah. So I don't have a matrix but I can just tell you that that's the cascading impacts when you're not delivering. >> Thank you. I don't have a particular question on the item.
I appreciate what staff said. It made it makes sense to me um especially if you all are feeling pressure from us which you have to deliver things more quickly. I think what would be helpful and I've raised it before is when we get to this in the CIP in the with budget and this is one of the reasons that I was very keen on increasing contract authority is walk us through a process right because we just see money um and so I think it would be helpful and that's not here but it would be helpful for us to this is pick a
project I don't actually care which one and teach us how you all do it so that we have an idea on our end because all we're just saying is like oh this is another millions of dollars And then we get the email about why are you raising my property taxes. Um so I think that that that's the part that I'm I think would be helpful especially as as elections are happening there will be new folks with new questions potentially. Right. So um from y'all's perspective um you you're here for decades.
Um, so we I understand why you're like, uh, but, um, I think that that would be helpful. And in general, just having a a deeper CIP conversation versus just the chart with the tons of projects that cost a lot of money. >> Yeah, thank just I think it's a good conversation. I appreciate what the manager said, your explanation for why this is here. I I note that we do have on the agenda today like Durham to Roxboro Rail Trail, the Durham Rail Trail, BRT. These are all these are all big priorities that we are urging you to
move faster on. And so I think to the manager comments, yeah, we'll just hold you accountable, you and the staff for delivering those on time or even faster as we've asked and and go from there. I want to um I may as a resident and as a citizen of Durham, I'm I'm I'm grateful to have council members at in your fiduciary capacity to ask these type of questions and and to safeguard um our treasures. I'm I'm I'm comfortable with the item and I remember um I used to talk about all the time, you know, why we needed to contract folk to cut the grass and the rightways around the uh the city and and the internal capacity and um you know, governments outsource stuff all the time.
We we hire consultants and and extra capacity um all the time for folk. sometimes um because some of these projects are are cyclical, it's actually less expensive to outsource than to have somebody with benefits and a full salary during a down period just sitting around cashing a check. And often times when
you add those numbers up, we've spent more on having capacity in house during low seasons when you compare it to what we spend on on outsourcing uh stuff. So I I I think and and also we did ask you to to be, you know, to lean into getting these projects done. Um I think our personal homes are kind of instructive how we run our households. I mean if if you don't have grandma to take care of the kids, you outsource child care.
You pay for somebody to take care of your kids. Um my neighbor across the street has all this stuff for his yard, but I'm not buying an air rating machine. I'm going to bring somebody in when I need that. So but I'm not going to pay for one to just sit idle, you know, for however many however many months out of the year. So, um you know, I guess we could do our taxes, all of us, but oftentimes we'll pay we'll outsource that and pay professionals to come in and do that. So, I I think you know, keeping it in context and when you also look at the the the entire budget of these projects, as you said, relative to what we're spending to to get these
projects managed relative to what we would have spent on being fully staffed up, paying benefits and all that stuff, um I think it it works out. So, you know, I had to learn the lesson about the importance of leveraging as a government, we don't make anything. We just collect money and and so smartly using our money to deliver projects for our our citizens and residents. And I know hiring outside, we hired consultants when we did our pay adjustment study.
I mean, you can run down the list of things we've done in the government, how many checks we've cut to outside sources, you know, without hiring internally to do those things. So I I have full confidence um in this management team and and how we've delivered uh over the years and we're constantly in the black and we're one of the best run cities um in the country. So I'm I'm I'm comfortable with this item with appreciation to my colleagues and I want them to keep asking these kind of questions. Um but but I think in a larger context this item makes a lot of sense.
So thank you. >> All right. Yeah. Go ahead. I just want
to piggyback and say that I I too would love to see the numbers. So that's just just to add just some breakdown at some point would be really helpful for us making those discernment. I know council member said it. I just want to add add my two cents to that.
>> Thank you colleagues. Mr. Mayor, I think number 13 is >> Thank you. >> Yeah, that's me also.
Resolution providing approval of Page Road Apartments and the financing thereof with Moser family housing revenue bonds. >> It was us both. Do you want to start on this one? >> Which one is it?
>> This is the bond one. If you I mean I'm happy to start. It's up to you. >> I just have I have a >> I have a com Do you have a question?
I have a comment on it. >> I have a question but it might be a DHA question but if you want to come up and try and answer it I assume they're online somewhere. Good afternoon, Mr. Mayor and members of the city council. My name is Matthew
Walker of the Housing and Neighborhood Services Department, and I'm here to respond to questions that have been raised. I believe there's some folks online. >> Okay. Well, let me I'm going to run down my list of questions, Mr.
Walker, and you can tell me uh what you think. I I am I am curious about the public hearing notice requirements. I think that's going to be a DHA question. Mhm.
>> Um and then um I'm also curious about how we secure these bonds. Okay. So my understanding is there's a term called tera u that is the tax equity and financial responsibility act that um approval of these bonds um is wrapped into that law. So, as part of the process, the housing authority that's issuing the bonds has to uh come to the city and um request that a resolution be passed to approve the bonds and the project. >> And so, we are just approving or not
approving, but I I assume that the security is I think I read that it was like collection of payment like rents. Is that true? >> The the mechanics of the bonds you would probably want to talk to the housing authority. >> Okay.
And >> I'm pointing up to the to the ether of >> So no, the housing authority issues the bonds, right? And the bonds are so it's not a general obligation. It's it's a it's a bond that's secured by the payments >> by the payments of >> rental payments. Yeah.
Yeah. A common common um a common tool of um Okay. >> Mort multif family um housing revenue bonds. Yeah.
>> Do you want the housing authority to answer my questions about the notice stuff or do you want to make your statement first >> that the housing authority have to answer that? >> Okay. Um, hello ether. >> Someone >> do we know who's representing the housing authority today?
>> Is there housing authority? >> Eric Pastelle at the Banks Law Firm. >> Yeah.
>> Hello. Can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Hey, >> I'm out of the ether.
>> Okay, great. Thank you so much for coming live. Um, >> no problem. >> Can you talk to me about the notice requirements?
I I'm sure that y'all are following the requirements, but I'm just I'm just curious how much flexibility you have of them because uh what I saw was that it was put one time into the Herald Sun on a Wednesday. Uh which I don't think anyone reads, which might also speak for why no one showed up on the at the hearing. Uh so I was just wondering if you could speak to the notices. >> Recording stopped.
>> Yes, >> you'll be offline. So >> yes. Yes. The the requirement is is that There's a public public notice at least seven days before the public hearing.
>> So there's no requirement on how yall do that notice. >> Uh it should be in the paper of general circulation. >> What could you repeat that? >> It should be in the newspaper. >> It has to be in the newspaper. >> It does not have to be but that as a
matter of practice it's published in the newspaper. It can be I think I'm sort of hearing your question. It can be posted on DHA's website, which I'm not sure whether it is. Um, but if that's something that the council is interested in DHA doing and they're not, um, that can happen.
>> Um, and is the newspaper is there like an enumerated list of places for the notice to go and the newspaper is listed or has this just been the practice? >> It's it's it's a practice. It's not a requirement that there be an enumerated. >> Okay.
Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, I mean for me as I'm I'm looking at this, not that I think that there's any issue with it, but it it does bring me pause and I know how I know how old school these notice rules are because we do them in court all the time and I know that we have city functions that give notice, too. Um, but a Wednesday in the Herald Sun is just like not going to get anybody in the door. Um, so for me, it
would be great if you don't have restrictions on that for y'all to be thinking about other methods of giving notice that um might actually get to constituents. So that was the comment that I had. Thank you. >> I have less of a concern about the public notice.
I think to me this is a really I'm glad this is on the agenda and I think I'm glad this has gotten some attention because I think we we've been getting a lot of emails about affordable housing concern about that and I think this is one way we do affordable housing that doesn't get a lot of attention right this is not city subsidies I understand right Mr. manager. This is about housing tax credits. It's about um multif family housing revenue funds issued by DHA that result in 160 units of affordable housing at 60% MI again without city subsidy.
So we have many tools to build affordable housing, right? We've got the forever home bond, right? That's one tool. We've got 505 we talk about a lot where we own land, right?
We got profiters from developers we talk about a lot. These are all different tools. I just I just want folks to out there to know these are all the tools we're
employing to build affordable housing. It's kind of like what uh Council Member Cavier in your housing uh task force report. There's multiple ways we do this. I think we sometimes argue about one or two, but this the point is like we're doing a lot to build affordable housing.
So, I appreciate your work on this one. It's a great project and um thank you for leading this. >> You're welcome. >> Next.
>> Item 14. >> All right. This is ordinance prohibiting wildlife feeding. Oh boy.
>> And I would like to say that it's unfortunate that it took an entire city ordinance proposal for me to see my old neighbors, but it's good to see you guys. >> All right. speakers. >> Uh, no. Let's start with the uh the Wait, was it That's a presentation,
right? No, no, it was pollution. >> Yeah. So, uh, >> nope.
>> All right. So, there was no council member that pulled this, so there are no questions. Um, you're available to answer questions, correct? Yes.
>> All right. So, we have a quite a few speakers here. Yeah, I'm going to start online. Um, Mas Sto, are you uh can you hear me?
>> Hey, good to see you again. Let me uh come back to you. Okay. >> Okay.
>> Uh, Elizabeth Vanores. Uh, Van Voris, >> can you hear me? >> Yeah. Welcome.
You have three minutes. >> Okay. Um, so good afternoon, Mayor Williams and city council members. I'm here to oppose the proposed ordinance that would prevent feeding wildlife in
Durham. Um, I understand this ordinance uh started as a neighborhood dispute and I've read the memo on the issue that was written to C city council uh which I believe is excellent but incomplete. Um, the ordinance would actually inadvertently harm several species of animals, one of which is feral cats. The city of wildlife versus domesticated animals is currently unclear or vague such that it is possible that the proposed ordinance may prevent the feeding of feral cats which would make trap neuter release programs impossible to implement.
Many studies have demonstrated that trap neuter and release programs help stabilize and then reduce feral cat populations. Um if this ordinance were passed and the definition of Elizabeth, are you there? >> Wildlife or cat population prohibition of feeding. The ordinance also ignores ecological relationships that may harm wildlife. Um many migratory birds and um
and urban wildlife species depend on supplemental feeding during migration, drought, and food shortages caused by habitat loss. By restricting such activities across the city, this ordinance threatens their survival and threatens the fragile web of biodiversity that remains within city limits. So, I'm here today to ask the city council to oppose this scientifically misinformed ordinance. I applaud the biophilic resolution which honors the innate human tendency to connect with nature and I note that this proposed ordinance is inconsistent with that resolution.
Durham has built a reputation as an environmentally progressive and compassionate city that values coexistence and community partnership. I do not perceive Durham to be a municipality that succumbs to the unfettered habitat destruction without provision for our community's most vulnerable creatures, especially not to satisfy the requests of neighbors who have been unable or unwilling to resolve their own interpersonal disputes. In fact, I believe that Durham deeply values biodiversity and that it is inconsistent with our values to criminalize our citizen conservationists, our wildlife rescue
teams, our feral cat colony managers, and our children who simply delight in feeding wildlife in their backyards. That's all I've got. Thank you for allowing me to speak. >> Thank you.
>> Next, I have Hannah Gibson. Can you hear me? You see her line? >> Hello.
Can you hear me? >> Welcome, Hannah. You have three minutes. >> Good afternoon.
My name is Hannah Gibson. I'm an attorney with a background in animal law, a citizen scientist, and a backyard conservationist. I'm here today as a citizen to speak up for the animals of Durham, and for the residents who care for and about those animals. I strongly oppose the proposed ordinance for the following reasons. This ordinance is an extreme response to an isolated dispute in one neighborhood among individuals who are apparently incapable of practicing tolerance in an increasingly intolerant society. This is not a
scientifically credible or evidence-based policy decision. This ordinance is unprecedented among municipalities. Only two other North Carolina communities have criminalized wildlife feeding, and both did so to deter dangerous wildlife, such as bears, which pose legitimate safety risks. A third jurisdiction uses its ordinance solely for educational outreach, not prosecution.
Durham, where bears are not a concern, would thus become the first municipality in the state to criminalize the feeding of harmless backyard birds and small mammals, a move that conflates compassion with crime. This ordinance criminalizes ordinary, benign human behavior. It would become a misdemeanor to engage in simple harmless acts like maintaining attractive bird feeders, providing seed for small wildlife, or setting out water during extreme heat or drought. A violation occurs the moment the city deems wildlife attractive. It effectively punishes residents for being
environmentally engaged. This ordinance is objectively uninforcable and inherently discriminatory. To determine whether a feeder qualifies for exemption, the city would need to find that it was intended for specific bird orders, a task that is both factually and legally untenable. No resident can control which birds visit a feeder.
And every feeder attracts multiple species. This ordinance punishes compassion and community service by defining wildlife as quote non-domemesticated animals, which is ambiguous at best. The ordinance could include feral cats and dogs, criminalizing those who feed or care for them. Furthermore, volunteer caretakers who set up feeding stations to trap injured or abandoned wildlife or other animals for rescue or veterary care would be committing a criminal offense. Likewise, licensed wildlife rehabilitators, students, and scientists engaged in legitimate educational or research activities are not excluded and could be prosecuted for their work. This
proposal would therefore criminalize the very people who serve the public and protect wildlife. Durham is building a reputation as an environmentally progressive and compassionate city that values coexistence and community partnership. This unprecedented scientifically flawed and morally regressive ordinance betrays those values and sends a chilling message that caring for wildlife is a crime. Thank you.
>> Perfect timing. Thank you. All right, I'll move to in person and Ma, I'll start with you. >> Welcome.
You have three minutes. >> Good afternoon, council members. My name is Ma Sto and I lived in Troder for 18 years. On behalf of my neighbors, I'm urging the council to adopt ordinance that prohibits the feeding of wildlife in residential areas. For years with the consequences of one neighbor who regularly leaves full of fruits and
even eggs and for wild animals. While this may come from a place of care, it is both ill advised for the protection of the animals themselves and deeply damaging to the community. Feeding wildlife disrupts natural behaviors, makes animals dependent on humans, and drives populations far beyond what the environment can sustain. The fact isn't confined to our yard.
It creates a blast radius of harm across our neighborhood. Squirrels multiplying, nesting in atticss, chewing through car wires, and leaving families with thousands of dollars of damage. We've done everything possible to resolve this peacefully. We spoke directly with the neighbor, filed reports at city departments, and even consulted wildlife organizations, but ultimately we were told there was nothing they could do because Durham has no ordinance preventing this kind of feeding.
That gap left of all of us without remedies. It's clear our neighbor finds comfort and purpose in caring for animals. And I want to acknowledge that instinct because it comes from a place of compassion. But when that compassion produces destructive consequences for an
entire neighborhood, another truth must also be recognized. It causes harm and it must be addressed. We recommend a fair escalating system of consequences much like animal control already uses. First offense, a warning and education.
Second offense, a fine to reflect the seriousness. Third offense, a double fine to deter repeat violations. Other communities like Hillsboro have already adopted ordinances with sensible exceptions for backyard birds and pollinators. A reasonable and effective model Durham should follow.
This ordinance isn't just about managing wildlife. It's about keeping the peace. When there are no clear rules, frustration grows and situations can spiral in ways no one wants. Laws aren't there to control people.
They're there to set healthy boundaries so one person's freedom doesn't come at the everyone else's expense. And that's why we're looking to you, our city council, to draw the line that keeps peace and fairness intact in the city. This is not about punishment. It's about protection for our homes, our health, and our
ability to live peacefully in our own community. Without clear rules, it's the neighbors, disgruntled taxpaying voters who are left to shoulder the costs. On behalf of the families of Troderidge, I respectfully ask you to move forward with adopting a strong enforceable ordinance. Thank you for your time and your commitment to the residents of Durm.
Thank you so much. It's good to see you. Uh Stephen Harris. Thank you.
My name is Stephen Harris. Appreciate this opportunity to be before the mayor and the council and the staff members here. Just to give a brief recap, um 21 years in Trotter Ridge, native of Durham, you can't remember where you're going unless you remember your history. Wildlife in Durham uh has changed over the years when it was called upon by the
police department to remove a bear that was in the city limits. Durham is growing. Uh we are now encroaching into wildlife areas. In the Troder Ridge subdivision, we are along the New Hope corridor.
This is a state wildlife gameland. There are waterfell empoundments throughout the Durham City area. They are along the Little River by Treyburn. They are in southwest Durham.
These are areas of which there is adequate resources for wildlife to be. I have enough oak trees in my neighborhood to supply every squirrel in Durham with with food for the LA next five years. I do believe we are having an enorm enormous amount of damage to our properties. It's hard to budget when we're going daytoday.
You're getting ready to send a kid off to college, but you've got to do a $2,000 car repair because the squirrels have taken over. And now it's not just squirrels. There's been times when I could not even go into my backyard and have a cup of coffee because of there was a murder of 25
crows roosting in my yard getting ready to go down to the neighborhood buffet. We're here to recap with you because we have tried to talk with the one individual and we looked at other resources to go to. We're caught in a quagmire here that we are trapped between the state wildlife laws deferred to jurisdictions of the cities because they do not have the resources to enforce the wildlife laws. The North Carolina Wildlife Commission says, "Do not feed wildlife.
" The Durham County ASPCA is currently working with the Durham Animal Control Office on how to handle the issue of feral cats. You have to have a license to trap feral cats to do the trap um vaccinate, neuter, and release program. and they have guidelines that they're working out to resolve this problem. Right now, we
have no other recourse but to come before you and ask for this ordinance. I would encourage that it's not be that it has to be something that you educate first and then follow the guidelines of the Durham County Animal uh control that it is a progressive fine for each violation. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.
Next I have Ka Manson quickly. Ka, I have you signed up twice. Uh I have you signed up twice. Did you uh >> three and five?
Okay. No worries. No worries. >> Sorry.
I apologize. >> Yeah. Okay. Excuse me. Mayor Williams and the city council members, my name is Ka Manson. I live in
Troder Ridge. I'm here to comment on the wildlife feeding ban and uh not on whether feeding is good or bad. Uh but I do have to correct a couple of items of misinformation. It's been reported that I have over 20 feeders or troughs.
Um, reporters have been coming to my house and looking for these troughs and they've left because I have I don't have them. Uh, a reporter published my full name, location, and description of my house, basically inviting people to uh take a look. So, now that I'm notorious, I'm just going to take a few seconds to uh to say what I believe is is true. Um, I don't have uh truss.
Uh those hold like 150 gallons of livestock feed. So it's colorful, but it's not not actually accurate. I have uh two platform feeders currently and they don't have peanuts. They have uh tree nut bird foods. And to
my recollection, no neighbor has ever had a conversation with me. Not one where they were not extremely angry first. And so I invite anyone to uh come over and speak with me. Um now with respect to the ban, I don't believe it serves the public good.
It creates crimes where no public danger exists and it diverts resources from the real needs of residents. Excuse me. The squirrel conflict that initiated the ban involves a few people in one neighborhood. And I'm not denigrating anyone's concerns.
I'm only saying that an isolated conflict shouldn't restrict the property rights of 300,000 residents who have no stake in that conflict. Uh if the ban passes, I'm concerned about some overly broad and confusing provisions, but actually the former speakers said it so much better than I could. Um I felt that the reasonable expected standard uh of an attractant really didn't provide good
enough guidance to residents on what they may or may not do. Uh there was no exclusion for a trapneuter release which is pro uh protected under county ordinance but the county ordinance doesn't address the feeding of it. It's more about the licensing and you know and and so forth. So, I really think there has to be an exemption for that if in fact you support the county's decision.
The 5- foot uh height for the bird feeders, I think, is really not effective for squirrels. They can shimmy up poles and there are better deterrent standards. Uh there's just some confusion about feeding of caulifformis, which are permitted, but they're actually ground feeders. Uh there's a provision permitting in ver in vertebrae.
I'm sorry I've been sitting there so long. Uh pollinators, but hummingbirds should also be uh excluded. They're really important. And am I done? Oh, okay. Thank you very
much. >> Thank you, Ka. Next, I have Lee Mortimer. And after Lee is Devin Schwarz.
Thank you members of the council for giving us a chance to express our concern about this. My name is Lee Mortimer. My wife and I live at 3116 Living Stone Place in the Troderidge neighborhood. We're about five doors from where the squirrel feeding is taking place.
Regarding the reported property damage from squirrels, one of our two cars uh was kept one car in our garage, which as far as I know has not had any chewing damage to its wiring. But because ours is a onecar garage, the other car stayed on the street. A man who does yard work in our neighborhood had been eyeing our car and asking me to sell it to him, which I
did 15 men 15 about 15 months ago. uh he's had to make some repairs on it and when I recently asked he did confirm that some of the wiring had been chewed up and needed to be repaired. Um, as far as bird feeders are concerned, we have a bird feeder that is uh easily suspended from uh a an iron pole from our deck uh and and from there uh uh on on a wire and we just refill the feeder. And uh we've never seen a squirrel anywhere near it because they they can't possibly get into it.
So, there certainly are ways that a bird feeder can be set up to uh be used only by birds. Uh just one other quick note. I I had hoped to make a statement about number nine, the rail trail, and I'm regret that you passed over that, but uh >> it's coming back. It's a presentation. It's coming back. >> Thank you.
>> Welcome, Devin. Uh my name is Deon Swyhart. I am speaking both for myself and my partner Ren. Uh we have resided in Troder Ridge since July of 2016.
And like many of our neighbors, uh we have been subjected to numerous instances of property damage resulting from a severe overpopulation and concentration of wildlife. Uh most notably squirrels. This is all localized within a specific >> Could you hold on one second? >> Yeah.
We uh we're getting some it's um >> it's going out. We can replace either replace the mic. >> Yes, sir. >> Thank you. >> Uh anyway, as I was saying, um the localized um radius is all surrounding um one specific home that is a few doors down from our own. Um, and this home uh does have a significant uh variety and
number of feeders present. Um, the damage uh resulting from the attracted wildlife. Um, has reached a total of approximately $10,000 for us specifically. Um, we have had damage to multiple vehicles.
Uh, wiring harnesses have been chewed. Um, one was so bad we had to get it towed off of our property to get repaired. Um, we had to have our entire chimney rebuilt. Um and we have also had um additional property damage to various things around the yard.
Um but Durham prides itself on being a home to some of the nation's brightest people uh who champion science and uh the accepted scientific facts on this matter are very clearly and effectively communicated by our state wildlife experts. Uh the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission advises against the feeding of wildlife for the following reasons. It increases the chances of disease transmission to wildlife, people and pets. Uh it can create unintended conflicts with humans. It can degrade surrounding native habitat and feeding
can lead to unhealthy animal uh and foraging habits. Um so instead they recommend um providing um native species that can uh provide food and shelter for these animals so that they can safely be appreciated and coexist within our communities. Our household loves animals, uh, especially wildlife. We enjoy the presence in their neighborhood, as I'm sure most of our neighbors do.
Um, however, the feeding problem has introduced a situation that not only is a significant cost to us, uh, but to our animal neighbors as well. Um, because squirrels seem to pose the most obvious concern, uh, we have seen an unnatural, u presence in other species as well, including deer, fox, bird species. Uh we have actually had our dog attacked multiple times uh by deer within our own yard. Um we have also had to routinely clean crow droppings off of our mailbox in order to maintain sanitary conditions for ourselves and our postal workers. Uh we've also noticed a distribution of peanuts all throughout the neighborhood
uh which is of concern for some of our neighbors who have uh severe peanut allergies and um there is the concern that they may unknowingly come into contact with them. Um, we have not seen any real recourse on like how to handle this. Um, and so unfortunately we have had to resort to trapping squirrels within the guidelines set by North Carolina state law. Um, something we take no pleasure in doing.
Uh, we would much rather peacefully exist together. >> Thank you. all my speakers. All right.
Thank you so much. Um, okay. I have a I have number 22 pulled. Uh,
this is a public hearing for Monday night, but I I'll just one speaker. I'll hear it. >> Oh, did you vote it? >> Number 22.
Okay, go ahead. >> No, I I wanted to talk about the ordinance. >> Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry.
I just moved on. Uh, okay. The uh wildlife feeding ordinance. >> Go ahead.
>> Sorry. Okay. Thanks. Um, I have a couple questions for deputy attorney.
Um I and my memory might be incorrect, but I thought we had discussed specifically about having an educational piece as opposed to criminalizing. Um but the way that the ordinance is written, it seems like we have added a misdemeanor in there. And I don't recall that that was what we had talked about last time. I was wondering if you could speak to that decision. I believe there was discussion about um having an educa an educational um piece. I don't know why it's not reflected um in the ordinance or if that
would be handled outside of the ordinance with regard to um you know how the administration might uh enforce the ordinance if we're adopted. Um >> I'll defer to to to city manager. I'll answer briefly and if if there's more detail we can ask housing and neighborhood services essentially uh I think when you talk about treating an enforcement issue as educational first that is uh deferring to the discretion of staff uh there is nothing to educate on if there isn't first a prohibition written into the ordinance and when you write a prohibition into the ordinance it comes with an enforcement tool it is generally within the discretion of staff I would argue that most uh code violations we try to deal with first without threatening enforcement and using an educational process. But writing the ordinance to simply be stopped at education uh to the best of my knowledge has no enforceability and therefore there is no real uh stick only
you know there is only the opportunity to enforce cara or uh if if you want to add to that but that that's essentially how we approach most property code enforcement issues. Okay, that makes sense to me. But is there not an educational piece written? I mean, there's no educational piece written to into this at all.
And I would imagine that some of our ordinances do have like specific steps that's not fully discretionary on all implementation, but I could be wrong. >> Clarence Harris, the code administrator. Uh currently we do not have um educational pieces written into the into the city ordinance. Uh we would work and collaborate with city attorney's office uh to write standard standard operating procedures and practices uh speaking towards educational uh material first actually implementation. >> I'm sorry. Can you Yeah, I I know that I
can hear you both ways, but could you just say that again because I couldn't I couldn't follow. >> You good? >> All right. Yes.
Uh, so yes. Uh, currently the ordinances the way they're written, there are no educational materials uh depicting um in in the ordinance, but we would work closely with the city attorney's office to write procedures and practices in place to first seek educational before actually implementing any type of code enforcement action. So, initially when we do an investigation, we staff will be prepared to share educational materials with property owners. >> Is it standard practice not to have that part written in?
I mean, I'm just thinking about like what if the department changes over? You can stay forever, but like what if the department changes over and that's not the practice of the department moving forward. Like is there no pro process of having that language in an ordinance to ensure that that's actually the first step that's taken? Can Can I Can I defer to >> Who else can we hand this off to?
>> Hello again. >> Hello. >> Uh Sophia Hernandez, Deputy City Attorney. Um at at this point, I am not aware that that educational piece exists in any of our ordinances.
I can't say that I have them all memorized back and forward. Um but for example in the housing code section or the Wedi lot section regarding trees and debris and um those steps aren't it's u as city manager Fergens has said it's policy it's how we approach it. Um but having that sort of built in sort of already gives folks then like a one off. Yeah.
Um, so it's just generally when you're trying to write something for enforcement, you don't write that in there. Or at least that's how we've handled it in the city. >> Okay. Thank you. That's helpful. Um um my next question is um is there is there a possibility of exempting trapping for feral cats?
>> Yes, if I can respond that. By the way, I would concur with both what uh uh city um manager Ferguson stated about the operation of our ordinances and the when an educational piece comes in. Uh um and after Monday night when that first speaker came in and talked about the uh the TNVR program in the ca in the county ordinances, I do agree that as written right now, the city um wildlife uh prohibition of feeding wildlife would conflict with with that um and would not allow uh a TNVR program. So, I've included an exemption to that if you want to go forward. That's what we would recommend is to go ahead and include an exemption to that. Um, with regard to there were some statements about the concern about um uh whether or not certain birds would be uh uh uh feeding birds would be li would also be uh
problematic. But we created an exclusion for that as well. That's not to say that the exclusion is comprehensive or complete. Say this is an example of where the city attorney's office has not been risk averse in drafting their ordinances.
Um so but that being that being that being said I in reviewing the um one other addition I wanted to to make or note is in reviewing the county ordinances under animal nuisance. Um, it's my reading of uh the county ordinance that the the uh feeding of wildlife such that there is a wildlife nuisance created would be a violation of county ordinances. I've inquired to the county attorney's office regarding my interpretation or our interpretation of their ordinance and they didn't refute the the interpretation. Um, I think you all I just think the council should be aware of that at least that we have the
city attorney's office has has has uh looked at other existing ordinances in place that that appear uh could could in fact um uh uh cover this issue specifically in that it makes it unlawful um for an animal to engage in a nuisance activity that's defined by the county ordinance and that nuisance activity is an caused by an animal that's either domestic or or wild. Um that um damages personal uh or uh persons or personal property, threatens the safety of um individuals, the public, interferes with ordinary use enjoyment of private or public property. It goes on and g gives a list of some examples. Um, and then a person is in violation of this ordinance if they willfully um, uh, or intentionally cause an animal to be a public nuisance. So
anyway, I uh I think that it be it's important for the council to be aware of what's out there um in light of the the challenge of of crafting the the the appropriate uh uh uh um feeding prohibition of feeding wildlife as we have attempted to do and we've added the the one exception you mentioned um Council Member Cook. Um, and that's I think that's all I have to say on on that. >> The exception you're talking about is the is the third one. The um animal control officer, veterinarian, peace officer, city employee.
>> It's it does not appear. I don't It does not appear. Yeah, it let me if I can I can read it to you. So, it would be I inserted an an exclusion between Romanet uh three.
>> Uhhuh. So it would be um paragraph under paragraph C exclusions it'd be a new um it would be romant 4. Okay.
>> Um and it says the ordinance does not apply to persons or activities associated with trap neuter v um vaccinate release TNVR programs to promote humanely trapping sterilizing vaccinating for rabies and F vrcp feline viral. Um I'm not can't I can't can't say that the that next word rhino >> something um those different uh uh viruses ear trip tipping and returning community cats to their original location or an alternative location where they will be uh welcomed. So that language is largely out of the the county um exception. >> Thank you.
That that does help me answer that question. So they can be neutered and they can be made not sick, which I love. Okay. Um the last part that you were just talking about the intentionally or willfully causing an animal to be a public nuisance, is that going to be a shift in a definition? >> No, that is in the county, >> right? Are we going to are were you suggesting
an any change to ours or >> No. >> No. And so does it contradict that definition at some point? No, I don't believe there would be a d a direct they would what I'm suggesting is the two would be regulating similar potentially regulating similar activities or making it a violation uh of of similar activities.
The only exception would be that the um county uh ordinance as I read it does not specifically talk about what is the willful thing. What is the thing that you're doing that's creating the nuisance? Um it's not built in that specifically the feeding of wildlife could be that >> create but it can be read into the into the uh the the um the ordinance as written right now that that would be one of the all you have to do as a a person
is is create the animal nuisance. >> I understand. Okay. Whatever that might be.
>> My last question is that this says that it's a misdemeanor. Um, and this might be a question for you actually, but I mean there's a slew of misdemeanors in North Carolina. Um, and this is extremely not specific. What kind of misdemeanor are we talking about? before >> or maybe it's >> actually if I could go ahead and make it in in the reference if in our ordinances where there's not a spec specific fine or fee whenever there's a misdemeanor penalty um the section 1-9 of the code defines general penalties and misdemeanor penalty is defined whenever in any ordinance any act is made or declared to be a misdemeanor or the failure to do any act is made or declared to be a misdemeanor, each separate violation of such provision shall be a class 3 misdemeanor for which
the maximum fine shall be $50. So that applies in this case as does in any other section of the ordinance that doesn't specify a fine but says it will be a misdemeanor. >> And then the idea in that in that um the 1-9 that you just read is that each violation then could incur a separate misdemeanor. And then the misdemeanor also does it attach like a normal criminal charge >> or is that just for the purposes of this ordinance?
It's just for the purposes of our >> enforcement. So it's we it's just giving us permission to levy a $50 fee. >> That's correct. >> And it doesn't like put a misdemeanor on your criminal record or anything like that.
>> No adjudication that has to happen. Okay, those are all my questions. Thank you so very much. All right.
Uh, Council Mio Cabaro, >> thank you. Um, I have a question really quickly. Um, is it possible? I hear what folks are saying. Um, and I and I get it. Like it seems that, you know, this
came up to me. It's similar to the bow hunting. There was a clear neighborhood problem. There was limitations.
Had a conversation on does it make sense to do a citywide thing and how does that impact everyone um when it's very localized? And so my question is if there's just a way to add um to the city code kind of the same place that we do like overgrown grass, weeds, things like that. Is there not a way we could just add this into that list of like it being a nuisance and that that it would be treated the same way if you like your grass is too long or whatever any of those whatever it's like section 26-183 property conditions deemed to be a public nuisance. Um, that's good question. I mean, I I I would I assume that there would have to be some description of the activity though to make it a to make it fall under that category. And and that's the effort that was made here to say we're talking about
feeding, feeding of wildlife, and what that looks like, what are the exclusions. So, I um I'm not quite sure what would be just added. It to to modify this kind of behavior. >> Yeah, I mean I that that's >> that would be that's the question.
I don't know. I'm just saying so that we don't have a ordinance in the same way that that is I'll just say it. I I mean I know we'll probably move this forward. It'll we'll have a similar conversation as we did around the the um >> bow hunting.
>> Bow hunting. Um, I think that it's similar enough to that do we really want to make a citywide ordinance for a very localized problem? And so then what is the what is it that we can do because it's it's real what folks are experiencing. The damage is real.
And so there has to be a mechan mechanism of enforcement back to that word enforcement that the city has clear authority to do. And we already have a department that does code enforcement that is already out. if you have a couch on your porch or whatever else, you know, we have a long list of things that
we have said we you you can't do that and if you do, we're going to find you. Maybe we'll do some education obviously first. Um that that that could kind of be in the middle of an ordinance and um just having neighbors not have a clear response, which is which is reasonable to me. Thanks.
That's all. >> Um >> thank thank you uh colleagues. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
Um, with with as far as the educational piece, the uh you know, when we've passed, I mean, my experience with laws, the educational piece was don't do this or you're going to jail or don't do this or you're going to pay the money that when we've done gun buybacks or needle kind of distribution that did not have a punitive piece to it. we had the educational uh component to those type of programs. But once it crossed the threshold of law ordinance is here's the line. If you cross this line, here's
what's going to happen to you. Be educated. Now, if we're if we're looking for um you know, discretionary kind of, you know, uh u when we're going to relax and when we're going to enforce it, I think that's a different um conversation. And the fact that we're talking about the educational piece, trying to build the educational piece into the law, I think to me speaks to really the tension of this what we really think the appropriate response is to this uh uh uh matter.
Um so couple of questions. Does Troder Ridge have an HOA? >> No. >> Maybe I should have one. uh and may maybe one should be uh you know and I I don't want to make light of it but as I said at our last meeting you know we have a very localized issue and it seems to me to bring the full weight and impromater of the government in the form of a all-encompassing allreaching law for the city pretty big escalation for for this this matter um you know our HOA
and our all all kind of our business uh threatening to to charge and stuff so that may be something you know, we may want to talk about education. Maybe maybe HOA might be um a place to start. Uh secondly, so we're talking about ex exempting cats and birds, but squirrels are the enemy. Squirrels, deer, but you can you can feed cats.
You can feed bird. Well, the the cats that have been TNRV cats, those cats are okay to feed, but regular cats um just wander around the neighborhood or I'm just trying to understand who which animals are okay and which animals would would be on the um the list that that you you could not uh and and how do we, you know, determine that? And and thirdly, why is the state ordinance not sufficient enough to to address this? I mean, the county ordinance, pardon me.
>> I I don't know why that why it wouldn't be. " um we should look into this a little bit further. So um >> yeah, because if if if it's a county ordinance and they're they're having problems with enforcement, I mean, my suspicion is that there's there's reasons why it it it's not I mean, if we just want to mimic the county and having something on the books that we're not enforcing, I don't I don't see that that's really uh helpful. Um, again, I'm I'm a bit reticent, not totally opposed to it, but but the threshold for me is for for again employing the the impromatada of our city and a sweeping citywide ordinance for what seems to be a pretty localized issue. Not to say it's not appropriate,
but in our city's 200 some odd year history, we haven't we haven't crossed that threshold yet. And if if this is the incident that's going to bring us to it, I'm wondering if if maybe uh you know the looking into an HOA or a neighborhood association to deal with this. But if we're going to pass this ordinance, I'd like some understanding. Like the TNRV program to me suggests that we are making these cats suitable to be around humans by by neutering them, by vaccinating them.
We are making them more habitable. And part of habitation is eating, is feeding them. So, so, so it seems to me by by almost by definition, we are we are making them safer to be around humans. And when you're around humans, we tend to, you know, we feed animals. So, if those cats are are if it's okay for them, um it's if it's okay for birds, because, you know, bird feeders are part of, you know, decor and things we do. Um, how
exhaustive is the list going to be of animals that are not uh that are that you can't feed um besides squirrels? Is it squirrels? Is it deer? What else is it?
Um, so I' I'd like some more clarity on that before putting the city's impro on this. And I also like to, you know, one get some clarification as to why the state why why why why don't you all call the state and have them come sanction these folk? Um, so those are questions that that I have. Thank you.
>> Thanks, Mr. Mayor. Yeah, I don't want to >> I'm sorry. The county I keep saying the state, the county.
>> Yeah, I don't belorver this one. I know we got other presentations coming up. I would just say I mean, I appreciate the residents coming. I understand the concerns of of the of the the damage to to cars and property.
Um, I also recognize the irony of like I'm the guy that brought the bofilic cities resolution earlier. we didn't get a lot of talk about, but like the idea that we can have abundance, we can live in harmony with nature seems to me like something we need to and I think one speaker referenced that. So, I'm not comfortable with I think as Mayor Prom
said what would feel like a overly broad ordinance to address really what is a localized issue. Um, I would support the idea that Council Member Cavier brought forward of sort of maybe bringing this back to staff and having them add language to code enforcement I think would be maybe a more elegant way to address this than sort of making it a ordinance with with enforcement provisions. So, I I I'd recommend we do that. >> Could I ask the attorneys to comment on whether there's any distinction where this lives in the ordinance as far as the enforcability?
I mean, my my presumption is we wrote it there. There are elements across the code that we can enforce through where we write it into the code doesn't change sort of the nature. But I'm referring to you all because I think we should understand the difference. Um, so yes, where it lives does not make a huge difference as far as our enforcement authority. I took council member um Cababayto's point of if we already have a way that we approach
other violations in chapter 26, can't we just add this violation and approach them similarly? That's what I think I understood you saying. And that I think is a slightly different analysis than what we were charged with here of a wildlife feeding thing that we want to treat a little more gently perhaps than we treat other nuisances. So um and also chapter six which where it's drafted is titled animals.
So we thought that there were some good uh synergy there. there's some other ordinances that live in that chapter that have to do with wildlife feeding and things like that. And so that's where it was drafted. But certainly if it makes more sense to put it in chapter 26, you know, I I think that again like um city manager Ferguson is saying, there's not a huge distinction unless you are advising that you want it to be enforced the way that already those chapter 26 uh violations are enforced. Is that fair? I
would just want to make sure that staff gets clear direction from council whether or not the feeding is legal or illegal because the location in the ordinance I I you know I defer to the the nuance of but I think what I don't want is a lack of clarity because staff will either be asked to treat this as it is something that is allowed or not allowed and the discretion they use is informed by what council tells us you want to be enforced. Can I just ask a clarifying question? So, if we were to put it in with the tall weeds, it would be a greater penalty than where it as y'all written it right now. >> So, within that, there's a different timeline and then there is um so I believe and Clarence, you can probably help me with this.
Um so, if we put it in chapter 26, chapter 26 has its set timeline that it follows. this is identifying a different timeline. Um there's you know the property is posted.
Um so there's different mechanisms and generally in those in the past we would perhaps technically uh pursue criminal charges. And so it again I think that the distinction was you wanted it to be wildlife and sort of separate. If you want it to be public nuisance code enforcement then certainly it can live there. Is it?
But if it lived there, would it come with the like daily fees that acrue until the problem is fixed as opposed to like discreet charges? >> Uh answer your question. Yes, that that would come with daily fees with cap and also uh the timeline in which enforcement will be a 10day uh timeline versus uh 48 hours. Yeah, but that's only done by reporting, right?
Like the way it works now is if the neighbor of yours is annoyed with you, you're a nuisance. You get reported. So like it would work in the same way. If this neighbor is feeding everybody in the neighborhoods and the deer and the murder crows and everything else,
they're going to get a notice on their door that's saying, "Hey, you're in violation. You have this much time. " But it is neighbor driven, you know? I mean, I remember got one for my trash can a few years ago.
" Which I got was probably like in their way. All right. Um, do we have any do we have a resolution here? >> Um, Mr.
Manager, do you have what you need from us? No, we don't. >> Not at all. >> Are we still trying to answer the question? I'm lean I'm over here uh with council member Cavierro on I mean uh there there's it's causing property damage uh and and it's pretty severe uh and I I do think that there needs to be some way it can be an acknowledged um but I also think we're getting borderline to civil you know civil uh
suits um but also a whole an entire citywide ordinance based on you was happening in a a circular street um neighborhood. I'm I'm it may be a bit a bit much. So um you or you need direction from us. Is that what you need?
>> This item can >> I'm a little tired. I'm sorry. >> This item will either move on uh if council settles the agenda and places on consent, we can modify it. Uh, I know there's already been discussion of language to bring us into compliance with the count the county's program around uh, feeding feral cats or council can choose not to move this item forward.
Uh, or council can refer it back to staff with direction to explore putting it elsewhere in the ordinance. Uh, my reservations remain about whether that fundamentally really changes anything about how we enforce it, but we will uh, bring you a more thorough analysis of that if that's council's direction. I think those are the
different options at your disposal. >> Right now, we don't have any response to to this matter. Correct. >> That's correct.
>> So, I would recommend taking it back to staff and seeing if we can locate it in the um in the ordinance uh in the uh what is it called? >> Chapter 26. >> Yeah, chapter 26. Uh nuisance ordinance.
Uh cuz I mean it it allows that to be utilized wherever without it being an over like an umbrella ordinance that's uninforcable. I mean >> am I I am right that it is report driven. We don't drive around looking. We don't have the capacity to go around being like hey blah blah blah. It's like >> yes, >> code enforcement does perform proactive inspections uh as it relates to high grass vehicles and how property maintenance issues in the event that these conditions are identified
during the during these proactive inspections. It would be cited at that time. >> But it's also neighbor driven as well, right? >> Yes, it is.
because literally there's a neighborhood next door, Merryweather, where there was a car left out for a long time and that was neighbor driven and um so I could see the proactive side of it for the sake of beautifification throughout the city. But uh if there is something that's more active like you know uh you know cultivation of of wild animals >> then that could be named driven at least there's a tool to have it addressed. >> That's correct. without criminalizing.
>> Yes. >> All right. >> Yeah. If we could, yeah, I'd recommend we refer back to staff.
I also want to suggest I feel like we're doing a lot of like workshopping here on our meetings, you know, which feels like not an efficient use of our time, you know. So, I would suggest for the folks who care about this a lot, I mean, work with staff on this thing. So, when it comes to us, I think we got something that you're confident in, the staff's confident. I feel like we're just doing a lot of like the workshopping here. It feels like not a fish. Well, so, so part
of the request around um getting more information on the uh well part of the request of increasing the manager's authorization so we can get more things on the agenda. This is what it's going to look like. We're going to get a lot of information. So, when we pull a lot of items, we're going to we're going to have these long days because we still have four presentations and we've lost one of the presentations, one of the presenters already.
Uh, and I need to also like take a break uh for everyone and also I need to ask you all if you want dinner before 5:00 so we can order it. >> I mean, it's one thing I mean I think to debate issues, it's another thing to like debate like language in a res beforehand so we have something that we all are having. >> And I want to be really clear that this came from community and I've been working with staff to bring forward something for y'all to vote on. This isn't this did not come from me.
I did not originate this. So folks from the community asked for it and I brought it in the same way that we did the bow hunting thing. Um and that that is that
I so I don't >> right >> I didn't I didn't think of this it didn't come from my brain. >> Oh because well I thought you had questions about it and I thought like you know so that's why I was maybe confused. Well, I mean the when you saw it attached to our agenda was the first time I saw the language attached to our agenda when we talked about it at the last work session what we wanted to see and so I'm I'm asking questions about the language because that's I also just saw it for the first time when we got it attached to the agenda. >> So that's I just want to make that clear.
>> Sounds good. >> I didn't create it I did not create this language. Yeah, I do want to inform that that I don't think workshopping resolves the policy disagreement that I hear and I hear a policy disagreement. I think what council is trying to do is resolve the policy disagreement through word smithing and respectfully no private conversations that staff have with council members individually is going to resolve the policy issue for you. So, while we are always available
after council has heard an initial item uh and directed staff to work with any particular council member, we're happy to do so. But I can't suggest that that will resolve what I hear is an inherent policy disagreement amongst members of council. So, we do want to support you in that way and do as much of this work as we can offline, but this is the part we can't do for you. Well, we we we we uh we just need to communicate more.
May >> may I also commend if we're going to refer this back to staff, may I commend to our friends and neighbors and try to ridge to um to the person, be a good neighbor, listen to your neighbors. Um secondly, perhaps look into HOA um formation. Thirdly, if if I I I know there are some folk who have had squirrels um chew through their wires and nobody was feeding squirrels in the neighborhood, they squirrels were just squirreling. But but if if you if you can make a case that um this person
is is has a causal link to property damage, you also may want to pursue uh some some legal remedies um that person. I'm not saying go out and sue each other, but that may be and also I also want to know um have you gone to the the county as well and and and asked for uh relief um in this matter as well and if they have not Yeah. Yeah. Well, that I'm I'm wondering you know what are we going to do that they they are not doing um so yeah.
So, so I in the meantime while this is referred back, um let's try and be kind to each other and considerate of each other's property and and uh our rights are balanced against others rights and privileges as well. So, whatever that's worth. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
>> There's no HLA. There's a list serve and a Facebook group. >> That's pretty active. Um colleagues, uh we have four presentations. It is going to be a long day. Um
I do you all want me to order dinner? Madam clerk, let's let's do it. >> As long as we are like eating and working at the same time, I would I would love to have some food. >> Yeah.
All right. Uh let's take a a 10-minute break and um we'll get right back to it. That's
Friends, if you'll come to order. We're back in session at 503. If you'll come to order actually, we've got uh >> one one last. Hold on.
>> Friend, if you'll come to get if you'll come to order in the chamber. We're going to get started. Item number 15 was pulled by council member wrist. We have one last pulled item before we get to our uh where's the clerk?
We have one. >> No clerk, no turns. >> Just hang on for a second for the clerk
to return. Is there a deputy in here taking minutes as well? And there's her absence. No, we locate the clerk.
All right, friends. We'll get started now. I'm going to yield to council member Risk for item number 15, amended and restated loan agreement with self-help ventures fund Durham affordable housing loan fund. >> Thank you, Mr.
Mayor PM. I'll be very brief. Um, this is not historic in any way you being documented by the clerk. Anyway, I just want to say first of all, I'm glad to see this is on the agenda.
As you may recall, this is one of the budget priorities that I submitted in the spring to make sure we did provide additional funding to the Durham Affordable Housing Loan Fund. And I'm so glad that that that we had actually money in the budget. We were able to to to make to to shake loose to uh fund this. I just wanted to say um just in full disclosure, I am on the board and I've talked to the city attorney about this.
I'm on the board of the self-help federal credit union. It's a legal entity that's separate from the self-help ventures fund. Um the ventures
fund is is going to receive the funding from this contract for the affordable housing loan fund. I just want to clarify for everyone and the city attorney said it's fine. I don't need to recuse myself from the vote, but just in full disclosure to say I am a board member on a related venture that is a separate legal entity of the of the selfentures fund. So I just want to clarify that.
That's all. >> Okay. Thank you so much. We'll move now to our presentations.
Item number nine, Durham Rail Trail project design update and professional services contract amendment with the John R. McAdams Company Incorporated. This is slated to go 30 minutes for the record. >> Mayor Pum, there was a speaker on it and he has left.
>> He did. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for that.
>> Yes. >> Um, so we'll go ahead and and receive the uh presentation number. >> Yeah. Yeah.
No. Madam clerk, the mayor will be back. I'm assuming a gavl obviously for a little while.
A little lopsided. >> Good afternoon, Henry Prosper General Services. Are we going to project the this thing. Can you guys see it there?
>> Okay. I've just needed like a visual. Thanks.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.
Okay, good afternoon, Henry Prosperity General Services. Our team is here today to provide a project update for the Durham Rail Trail project. Uh, as far as the agenda, I'm going to start us off by discussing the project funding, the budget, and the schedule. Uh we have Iona Thomas here from the McAdams Company, our design engineer, and she's going to be providing us updates on the permitting and approvals.
Uh as well as sharing some exciting uh design progression with us. Uh Stephanie Miner is here, and she's going to go over the public art vision plan. Uh we also have a couple procurement strategies, one for project delivery and for construction, which I'll discuss and then we'll conclude the presentation with the next steps for the project. 3 million for the project. Um so the revenue sources are generally comprised of two
major funding sources. We have capital dollars as well as a number of federal and state grants. We received capital dollars in fiscal year 17 25 and just recently in fiscal year 26. Um, you can see there's a number of federal and state grants, but most notably the raise grant that we had approved in 2021 for $9 million.
Uh, we also have a 90 thou Yeah, we also have a $90,000 street services fund and that's specifically for storm water along the trail. 3 million. I can advance. Okay.
So on the budget side, uh on the as far as the expenditures, we had a past expenditure of $9 million and this funded the rail trail corridor acquisition. It also funded the master plan as well as the initial design when the project resided in the transportation department. 5 million in professional services.
The items in bold are the items before city council today. Uh the first one is an amendment to McAdams contract to add construction administration services to their contract and we're also increasing the project uh contingency. And then the next one is the Turner Towns and uh amendment that we spoke about earlier for focus trails project delivery which we do have another slide. We'll talk about that a little bit later on in the presentation.
Um, this leaves us with about $25 million for construction. And then we have $6 million in owner's cost, which includes public art, any additional property acquisition, as well as any inspections and fees. Okay, so this next slide is the project timeline and the current project schedule. The first milestone that you see in the upper left is uh in 2018, the $34 million master plan was adopted. This is also the year that we purchased the rail trail corridor. Uh moving forward in 2019, the equitable community engagement blueprint was
adopted and this really set the tone for engagement for all city projects moving forward. Uh the rail trail project was one of the first projects that utilized the engagement blueprint for how we went out and collaborated with the public. Uh in 2021, as I mentioned, the $9 million raise grant was awarded. This is also the year that we gave a notice to proceed to actually be begin design for the project with our design engineer McAdams.
Uh in 2022, we began in earnest our community engagement process. Um and this is when staff and our consultants went back out uh to the public to collaborate with them based it was really a refocused engagement effort based on that engagement blueprint and there was a lot of great design additions that came from that uh based on that engagement feedback. Uh moving forward in the timeline, in April of 23, we submitted 25% plans to NC DOT and had those approved. Uh this is also when we began to develop enhanced project concept development. Uh the master plan never really conceived just doing a linear trail of asphalt
like the AT trail. There was always ideas that we would enhance that with additional amenities, plazas to enliven that experience along uh the trail. Uh so the red bars that you see on the timeline represent intentional design andor cost validation periods. Uh the first one that you see in the upper right uh from October of 23 through July of 24.
This is when staff was working with administration uh on intentional funding strategies and approvals for these additional uh enhancements such as the gateway plaza and the additional trail amenities which we actually brought to city council last summer in June. Uh so moving down to the next line in July of 24 we gave a notice to proceed to our design engineer McAdams uh to proceed with 65% to 100% design. The bar that you see at the top of the at the bottom there was the schedule that we presented to city council when we came last summer. So at that time we had design intended to be completed in summer of 25. Um and we had bidding in
early of 26. construction was intended to go from spring of 26 through fall of 27 for a total 18month construction duration. Now, the bar at the bottom is the schedule where we're at today. Um, so the first line that you see there, uh, from October 24th to January 25th, we were seeking gateway concept approvals with our internal stakeholders with parks and recreation as well as the transportation department.
uh moving forward in April of 25 we made our 65% design smittle to NC DOT and had that approved uh and then earlier this summer from June to August of 25 we were doing cost validation of the design to make sure it was within our budget. So the vertical red line that you see there uh is where we're at today in October and all the milestones to the right are where we're expected to go after uh today. So we intend to make our 90% design submitt to NC DOT in March of 26. will be bidding about a year from now in October of 26 and bidding will progress through January of 27, excuse me, construction will go from
January of 27 through June of 28. Again, that same 18-month construction duration. You can see that there's a variance between the schedule that we presented last summer and the schedule where we're at today of about 6 to9 months, and that's really accounted for in those intentional design and cost validation periods. Um, the bar at the the bottom is our permitting and agency approvals.
and I'm going to turn it over to Iona Thomas and she's going to expand upon that for us. >> Thank you, Henry. Um Iona Thomas with McAdams, also Durham resident. Very happy to be here today.
Um this is a look at all of the permitting and approvals that we need to be able to take the project out to bidding. Um the this is colorcoded. The blue are a variety of stakeholders and then we've highlighted the railroad in red and NCD do DOT in yellow. We think we're well positioned to get all of the approvals in place that we need for this project. We um have begun um all of the
coordination that was needed um many many months ago and it is something that we are highly focused to make sure that we have everything that we need in place to get the federal funding authorization to move forward into construction. So, um, Henry mentioned that we came to you last summer and so I wanted to kind of give you a little refresher of the decisions that were made. Um at that time we gave you a presentation about how our brother and sister cities around the country are taking uh linear spaces like the rail trail corridor and turning them into spaces that um serve their residents, attract um businesses, attract tourism. and we developed some concepts that raised the elevation of this trail um to to match that kind of destination um and specialness um that was outlined in the master plan. These are also these
concepts were also in direct response to what we heard from our public engagement um throughout the project. We got a lot of very very good specific actionable things that you'll see as we go through the program. Um, so you approved uh last summer a package of enhancements that are um elevated uh furnishings, seating areas, making sure that we are connecting to the LRB watershed project in a seamless way, lighting, which is something that we heard very strongly in our public um input that is important and native plantings as well. uh something that we heard quite a bit about in our public engagement.
We also presented the gateway plaza concept. Um this is the very small piece of land right now. It is the gravel parking lot that is overflow parking from for the
Amtrak station. Um this had been leased to NC DOT. It is uh a half an acre and we developed a a concept and presented that to you. We also got a lot of feedback after we presented to you from different um stakeholders within the city.
So I'd like to go through how we have taken what you saw in um uh the summer of last year and turned that into a really exciting concept. So what we heard um from you in council, from the community and from the stakeholders across the city that we needed to create a strong visual connection between the trans transit station and downtown as you all are very aware of. We um are cut by the railroad through downtown and sometimes it's very difficult if you're at the transit station to know um how you're going to get to Amtrak, how you're going to get to downtown. So creating this visual connection was very
important. We also needed to create a safe physical connection between this transit station and the trail and downtown. Um there was a desire to have this flexible plaza space that we'd identified in the original concept um to make it a little bit larger um and make it more flexible so that it can be programmed in a lot of different ways. Um and then integrating the trail through this.
This is a trail gateway. So, we wanted to make sure that the trail was not an afterthought as it came through and that it maintained that separated biking and walking zone which was very important um throughout the engagement period all the way back to the master plan. Um people really wanted a separate place for biking and walking um and then to create um some some gravity and attraction um with this parcel. So micro retail to engage residents and visitors and then last but not least is to
thoughtfully integrate public art into the project. So I'll walk through the concept today. This is an aerial of um the the concept as we have it. You have Chapel Hill Street to your left.
I guess that's your left too. It's my left. Um and Main Street on your right. Um, so you can see the blue is how the Durham Rail Trail um moves through the Gateway Park and connects down to West Chapel Hill Street.
The upper plaza was expanded. Um, and this is also the largest um, storm water infrastructure on the project. Those are all permeable pavers. Um so we're treating quite a bit of um runoff in this and um including uh other green storm water infrastructure elements along the project as well, but this is one of the larger ones. The art installation, there's been we've identified a location and worked closely with Stephanie and her team to integrate um art into the project.
And because the parcel is so small, there's also a lot of grade change on the project, we use that to our advantage to make, if you will, think instead of a ranch house, we have a two-story house on this parcel. Um, but because of that, we needed to be very thoughtful about how people move through the project. And so there's an ADA accessible connection to every element of the project. And that's what you see here in um red.
So that purple line connects you um from the where the trail connects to the park and the upper plazas up and around across the bridge that goes over the trail and then that connects to what we call the upper decks. This is again utilizing the space that's created by the micro retail um on the bottom here with the lower plaza that faces the lower plaza. So, we have a a lot of different um areas that we can program on on the project. And let's
take a look at what this is actually going to look like. So, this is the upper plaza. That is the permeable p permeable paving um storm water treatment area there. And we're also responding to what we heard from the community that one of the things that they wanted the most was a place that they can uh watch, do people watching, meet other people, have a place to socialize.
We've heard also that shade is very important. So, we're creating shade. And I'll talk a little bit later about the mirrored surfaces on the shade structures, but those come into play to really activate this whole space as well. This is how that bridge that goes over the rail trail connects to the micro retail on your right and the upper plaza on your left. So, in this image, you can really see how we've taken advantage not just of the horizontal space that we have, but really activating the vertical space as well.
Um, this is a look at the lawn area where the monumental piece of public art will be located. And then this is what I kind of think of this as our our front porch to the project. So this is what you'll see if you're driving or walking uh by on Main Street or on the loop. And so what you see there is your micro retail, which would be concessions on your left, a small gallery space, and then um an outdoor plaza um with seating.
So this is where you can go and get your coffee. You know, we have a lot of residents downtown. We have a lot of workers downtown and hopefully this is also going to create a lot of tourism downtown. So this is kind of the um entryway or the front porch and then those shade structures with the mirrored platforms. One of the feedback elements that we got early on was how do people know what is going on above the um in the upper plazas. So these uh polished
stainless steel uh panels allow you to look up and see that there is activity on the upper plaza on the upper uh decks and vice versa. So you'll be able to look and and see down and so it's creates um a visual connection on the project. This is what the project looks like kind of all um put together. And I'll draw your attention to the left hand side where we have those very tall shade structures.
Those are the tallest shade structures on the project. And those do create a a really a visual anchor, if you will, or a way point for people who are going to be making their way from the transit station or the tobacco campus um along Pedigrew and then on Chapel Hill to make their way. So, we weren't we were not able to do a bridge or a tunnel, but we do have really strong wayfinding and orientation on the project. Now in the enhancement package that you approved um is also the connection to the Ellerby watershed project. Uh the
goal here is these are two big city projects, big investments and we wanted to make sure that there was a seamless boundary between these projects that it felt very intentional and that if you're visiting this space um it it feels all of all of one piece of cloth. Um the original budget did not allow for um the numbers of connections that we have here. So we have two sets of stairs. And by the way, we're looking downtown.
You can see the water tower there. So we have an ADA ramp and then there's another set of stairs um close to Trinity and then this close this set of stairs here on um the other side of the ADA ramp. This also creates views out across the LRV wershed project. Um so this is going to be a a very um important moment for people who are are using the trail and visiting our city. Also in the enhancement package, this is
just a snapshot. I wanted to show you how the enhancements get spread across the whole project. So, we've seen the the the gateway project which is downtown, but the enhancement patch package touches all of the trail all the way up to Aendale. So, this includes native plantings, um seating areas, um very thoughtful places um to gather and rest and do the people watching and shade.
Um, so for orientation here, that's the Duke uh powerhouse and you can see where the U water tower is there. I put Crank Arm on there as an example of the businesses who are already really excited about this project. They're located right on um the corner and very anxious for the project to come through. Um we know that the city of Durham has made a significant commitment to um shifting towards renewable energy 100% by 2050 on
uh Durham projects. This project can be a part of that. And so we're looking for appropriate ways to use renewables in our trail lighting and park lighting and charging. Um, I I say appropriate because we do have some shaded areas that it isn't a good choice.
So, we're trying to be thoughtful um and achieve the the renewable impact, but also make sure that we're providing the safety and the comfort that the community has asked for in the lighting. Um in our raise grant application, one of the things that we had to do um there were a lot of benefits that we had to quantify and one of those were the um the natural and environmental impacts. So, this project um when it is complete will take 95 million pounds of carbon emissions off the table over the next 20 years and it's going to create a 52%
increase in households that have access to a park by foot or by bike. Um so these are the kinds of things um that this project is going to deliver on top of transportation and tourism. Um the design things that we are working into the project are native plantings um open space preservation uh and then green storm water infrastructure. You can see some examples of that on the right hand side.
I've already talked about the the plaza at the gateway, but we'll be doing smaller um uh green storm water infrastructure interventions. We've been working with Sandy and her group um in storm water. They've been great partners on this project. Um and then of course the connections to the LRB Creek Trail network. Another thing that is important to us as designers for bicycle and pedestrian projects, our users are going to lose in any interaction that they have with a
vehicle. So safety is the most important thing in everything that we do in all that we design. We share that with Durham and your commitment to vision zero. So, we have a um robust um safety program that's being integrated into this project.
One of the things that we also heard from the community is that they wanted safe crossings. Um, and so we have made sure that we're delivering that. Some of the ways that we're delivering that and using best practices from vision zero, our high visibility crosswalks um, and making the pedestrian crossing shorter by doing bumpouts and narrowed lanes. where also where it's appropriate using uh pedestrian refuges so that if you need more time to cross um the traffic lane you can go halfway across collect yourself and then continue on. Um and then signals making the appropriate choice for the right signals at the right locations. Those
include hawk signals, rapid flash signals, and pedestrian heads. Um we've also been working closely with um the transportation department and what you see here is a pilot project that um they worked on. We were having some um back and forth with NC DOT on Chapel Hill Street about whether our proposed bike lanes here would preclude the bus from safely making the lefthand turn. And so what you see here is the space that we will be claiming for our bike lanes.
And the transportation department went out and did a tactical project to prove that it works. You can see the bus making the turn there. Um and so we've got um a really great foundation to continue talking with uh NC DOT to get the full bike lanes approved. Thank you for your time. Um, I'm gonna be available for questions, but then Stephanie has some stuff on
public art. Do you wanna Mayor, did you >> Well, I'll I'll wait and and ask at the end. >> Good evening, everyone. Finally, we're up here.
I'm Stephanie Miner. I'm a public art project manager at General Services Department. Um, I worked closely with my team and McAdams during the development of the Durham Rail Trail public art vision plan. This vision plan provides direction for a long-term integrated public art strategy and serves as a roadmap identifying sites for art activation, placemaking, and community- based storytelling.
McAdams contracted Durham based artist and community leader Brenda Miller Holmes to develop the public art vision plan. Brenda Miller Holmes is known for her community focused public art projects including the Durham civil rights mural next to the arts council building. Miller Holmes drew on the community feedback gathered by McAdams
to shape the approach and framework of the public art vision plan. The vision plan is guided by a unifying color and material palette. Trail artwork will use soft tones to reflect Durham's historic and natural settings um made with a combination of natural and industrial materials like steel, wood, glass or stone that are durable, lowmaintenance, and suitable for outdoor use. The vision plan is anchored in six core principles.
Equity, diverse voices and stories represented throughout the trail. Unified, a cohesive vision that fits Durham's natural and built environment. Unique to Durham, art that reflects Durham's history, culture, and identity. Interactive art that invites play, gathering, and participation.
Sustainable, durable natural materials, and creative rail reuse. And a destination, a trail that is more than a path. It's a place to gather and visit.
The plan provides a multi-year phased strategy with implementation spread across the trail through each of the three phases. Phase one is fully funded and will be completed prior to opening day. Proportionately distributing artwork along the trail ensures every community feels represented and no area is overlooked. Additionally, staff is collaborating with the public works team at the South Elerby restoration uh site for a create to create a cohesive public art experience for trail users.
The West End Gateway Plaza will be home to the Stagville Memorial Project public artworks. This is the artwork that Iona identified earlier. Founded by descendants and local stakeholders, the Stagville Memorial Project is a 501c3 nonprofit seeking to honor the contributions and histories for those of those formerly enslaved at Stagville Plantation through public art in downtown Durham. Bringing this story into the heart of the city ensures that Durham's growth and identity acknowledge
the people whose labor and migration built the region, creates a space for learning and reflection, and fosters a more inclusive understanding of our shared history. Since 2021, the city and the county have each committed $237,000 to support this project. Executive Director Vanessa Hines along with the committee is currently working on selecting an artist for the site and city and county staff are providing guidance. I'll share a QR code at the end of this presentation if anybody wants to learn more about the stack memorial project.
As part of the vision plan, detailed cost estimates were developed. As I mentioned, phase one is fully funded through CIP and will feature integrated functional artwork across the entire trail. This includes a variety of artistic benches and other elements that will ensure art is present throughout the corridor and ready for opening day. After the trail is built, phase two will bring the corridor to life with interactive community center features.
This phase envisioned sculptural works, gathering and play spaces, mosaic murals, and outdoor gallery garden, and a pocket plaza at Fuller Street. A larger plaza at this location was presented during an earlier city council meeting, but not was not recommended for funding at the time. Recognizing the need for a community space and through the ingenuity of the McAdams team and staff, the public art vision plan was able to reimagine a smaller but still impactful gathering space with artistic seating, shade structures, and infrastructure for a splash pad. Phase 2 does not have dedicated funding, making future partnerships and fundraising critical to bringing these ideas to life.
Phase three represents future public art investments and community gathering spaces that will continue to enhance the trail over time. These projects include artistic lighting, static and interactive sculptures, and artist design backracks. Again, while these projects are not yet funded, they do highlight the long-term potential of the corridor and create opportunities for future partnerships
and community investment. Delivering future phases of p delivering future phases of public art and trail activation presents an exciting opportunity for private funders and public private partnerships. Institutions, developers, and businesses can play a role by sponsoring installations or adopting trail sections helping to bring the vision to life. In addition, there is strong potential to partner with community nonprofits and foundations, local universities and cultural organizations.
Our team is collaborating with Durham Next, who is here in this committee room tonight, to support us uh on these future activations and the opportunities. We look forward to connecting communities and celebrating Durham's identity through art. And now I'll turn it back to our project management team for closing remarks and questions. Thank you.
>> Thank you, Stephanie. Uh the next couple slides that we have are the procurement strategies that we talked about earlier. The first one we talked about earlier is the project delivery strategy. This is
an amendment to our service contract with Turner Towns and Hiri to provide dedicated project management support for the three trails that are listed for Durham Rail Trail, our Kelly Bryant Bridge Trail and Third Fork Creek Trail. So again, Turner Towns and Hairy is embedded in our office and they would be providing a dedicated team for trails trail delivery. Uh this next uh procurement strategy is for construction. So currently our transportation department is working to administer the federal funds from the federal highway administration to the federal transit authority.
Um the raise grant is already being administered through the federal transit authority and we believe that there's some economy and efficiency with administering the federal funds through a singular agency. Um this will also give us the ability to utilize construction manager at risk. Uh and I've listed some of the advantages there below. uh construction manager at risk.
We it's a qualificationbased selection versus a low bid. So we'll actually put out an RFQ. We'll receive proposals and score them and we'll actually be able to interview the firms uh and really select the right fit for
this project. Um typically construction managers also provide optimum compliance with MWBE goals. A really good example of this is over at the Durham Station project which is currently under construction. Uh the funds are also being administered through the FTA.
Uh, and they're also using construction manager at risk. They set we set an 18% MWBE goal and the construction manager achieved a 39% goal. So, they typically do really well with compliance. Uh, the next item is cost shity and guaranteed maximum price.
When you hire a construction manager, you're bringing them on during the design phase and they're providing constructibility reviews and cost estimates. And so there's just more cost shar predictability with where the cost is going to be during the design phase before we actually even get to construction. So we believe that helps mitigate risks for the project. And then lastly, they're an integrated team member providing design quality assurance because you're bringing them on during pre-construction during the design phase. Excuse me. And this is the last slide and this is just a reiteration of the
milestones that we showed earlier. Um all the milestones moving forward for today. The first two are uh in March of 26 and this is when we intend to make our 90% submittal to NC DOT as well as our CD submittal to the Durham Planning and Development Department. Uh we expect to have 90% DOT approval by June of 26.
The next two milestones are a year from now in October. Uh so we would be making our or we would be achieving our NC DOT rightaway certification as well as the FTA construction authorization. As I mentioned, we'd be bidding the project in a year from today in October, and bidding would go through January of 27. Construction would progress from January 27th through June of 28 uh for the completion of the project.
So, that concludes the formal presentation. At this time, our team is here to entertain any questions or discussions, >> colleagues. >> Thank you. That was a great presentation. Um, I have two questions.
The first is I'm just going to piggyback on what Mr. Mortimer was going to say before he had to leave because we kept him here all evening. Um, which is that uh I have gotten a couple emails about the Amtrak parking and I was wondering if there the Amtrak parking. Um, and I I mean I understand that that we want to use Hey, great.
Sean's already coming to the podium. I understand that we want to use that space for this project and it makes sense. I also do want to make sure that we're um allowing for folks who want to use Amtrak to use Amtrak because I want to encourage folks to be using our public transit and that is one of our options. Not exactly, but you know what I'm talking about.
Um, so yes, could you speak to the parking lot, the access parking that we lost? >> Sure. So, I'm Sean Egan, transportation director. Uh, so there are two Amtrak lots. There's the paved lot, uh, that's part of the Amtrak station, and then there's the gravel overflow Amtrak lot
that's owned by the city. Right now, both are available for Amtrak use. When uh this project moves forward, uh the gravel lot will be transformed into the park that you saw. Uh but the the portion that's currently paved will continue to be available.
Um and then around the corner on Chapel Hill Street across from Durham Station, there's also um a park and ride lot that's available uh for use. So right now that's only available for folks who are using Go Triangle or Go Durham buses. Uh but uh Go Triangle has indicated that uh they want to uh see better utilization of that lot. So we had some discussions with them earlier this week about getting the word out about the availability of that lot that's at the corner of Duke and Chapel Hill Streets across from Derm Station, making that available uh for parking uh for park and ride services as well. Thank you for that and thank you for working on that.
That's awesome. Um my next question is um I we heard a lot from um this presentation that kind of was responsive to the last time that this was brought before council, but one thing that we talked about a lot in the last um council conversation that I didn't hear anything from at all um was about wealth recapture. And I know that we are procluded in a lot of ways from doing that, but I was wondering if there had been any further conversation, if there were uh any ideas about how to ensure that we're just not displacing everyone as we build this. >> I I don't have the answer to that.
>> Everyone is looking around this. Everyone else. Okay. Well, we don't have to go into it too deep today, but I just want to keep it on the forefront of everyone's mind. I mean, we've seen the impacts of similar trails, and though they've brought really amazing um
uh public space and um and safety and pedestrian walkways to those areas. Um we've also seen a lot of gentrification from those projects. And I do want to ensure that as we're working on this project, we're thinking about the real impacts on people who actually live in Durham. Um, and whether we're building a place for those folks or building a place for um, others that we'd like to displace them with.
So, just want to make sure that that's on everyone's mind as we're moving through. >> Yeah. And I know Thomas, again, I'm the designer. I should probably not be answering this question, but I am a student of what is happening around our country and these types of projects and the projects that we see that successfully deal with those challenges um are have a a policy program that they're working on. So this is designing the infrastructure side of it and so that's I think a policy initiative that
needs to go hand in hand with it. >> Yeah. So, I think the other part I want to add, so I want to um affirm that that's been a a regular point of discussion both publicly and at the staff level throughout the life of this project without having a direct answer about a strategy that accomplishes what you're looking for. I I I want to commend the type of equitable engagement that went on throughout this project.
This project was designed by talking very specifically and t in a targeted fashion on communities along along the trail um with amenities that they told us they wanted with the types of enhancements they were looking for. I think we all acknowledge that any level of investment creates some pressure around it and and I don't want to um in any way imply that we feel like we have that figured out. But I think what we do feel very confident in is that this is not an improvement or a project that we
feel is being driven by interests that don't represent this community. We feel like this project deeply represents the people who live in and along the uh the rail trail. And we can speak more to um that process. We have staff in the room who who led those efforts which we're very proud of.
Again, that that does not speak to the lack of financial pressure that it can bring, but um I wanted to make sure that was uh something we added. >> Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. Um can I follow up or um Yes.
And I but I my concern is to ensure that the people who have been engaged actually get to see the fruit of what they have. Right. So, um so to to that end, I mean, I feel like we bring this up every time. To that end, if there is if there is some guidance that we could give where staff could look at a policy um that's been used in other states that do have kind of similar restrictions to North Carolina, I would be interested in hearing that report along with the actual design of this. I think it's really important that we be talking
about them at the same time. Uh so that's something that I would would support if colleagues if y'all are interested in in having that uh staff time dedicated to >> I'm not sure what you're talking about. Young >> uh well that there are different methods of wealth recapture or just ensuring that when we pour a bunch of money into a project into a community that we're not displacing the entire community due to like rising costs. Um and North Carolina is restricted on what we can do, but there are definitely creative solutions and I know that you've mentioned a few of them previously.
Um there are definitely creative solutions and they're happening in states where there's also restrictions. So for me it's um instead of us kind of talking about it every time we get the real project in front of us like if there's something that can come up with that design presentation where we actually like put some staff resources into thinking about what policies we could implement that would ensure that the folks that are doing this engagement get to enjoy the final product. >> I'm curious. I I'm not following. I
" And then they hike it up and I can't control that. How do we can you give me >> Yeah, that is my question. and and we we have seen that there have been projects that have happened across other states where there has been some success in ensuring that folks get some share of the economic benefit that comes or whatever and that is my literal question is like is there a way that we can be looking at that I am asking how we would do it instead of just like saying over and over because I feel like everyone wants the same thing but instead of saying over and over again like it'd be really nice if we like didn't displace everyone like if we could actually like have some research that was done alongside of the development. I mean, we've got until uh June of 2028, which uh hopefully is going to be the hard deadline. Um and so that is my >> I'm ask Oh, great. Come on up.
>> Hey everybody, my name is Nia Rogers. I'm at McAdams, formerly of Durham. I've been working on this project since 2017. And so the questions that you're asking are not new.
They have been with this project since it was in the planning phase. And I think um you know Leah has mentioned there are challenges to making private property owners do what we want them to do, you know, to make them not sell their property and redevelop it or charge higher rent. Um and one of the things that I noticed, so I was here when the equitable engagement blueprint happened. I was one of the p people who helped drafted it.
I was one of the staff that went out in the field knocking on doors. And one of the things we discovered is that those places where we thought we would find uh our low-income residents or uh you know people who may not have been involved is that a lot of them were already gone. And so when we talk about I just want you to know that like do you know what I'm saying? Like the the train may have already left the station. >> Um but it doesn't mean we can't change
things but um I just want you to know this has been a been a discussion for many many years. Um and um I think there's a lot of challenges when we look at some of the neighborhoods around this are fairly stable like Duke Park and I used to be in planning too so planners y'all throw the wrench at me if I'm talking about but for example Duke Park fairly stable neighborhood downtown is doing what it's doing it's downtowning >> um those areas of rent you know the low-inccome rental is actually not that big around this corridor if you start to go out around a quarter mile you'll start to reach them but a quarter mile is a long walk for a lot of people. Uh so I think when we think about this approach and I'm not in planning anymore. I'm not a planner. Um you know in this case it may that it is be that it is a very targeted approach that's needed um you know by someone who writes policy. Just some thoughts based on having been on the ground and knocked on the doors in every neighborhood along this trail and literally looked at the development like literally an exercise we did was pulled every development plan
every house renovation permit. Um, so we know that this is changing faster than we can even deliver the thing. >> Yeah, thank you. I didn't realize I didn't realize you had left.
So sad to see you go. Um, >> I still work for you. >> I know. I see that.
>> We're glad to still have you. Um, that is helpful information, but I think that the at the end of the day, it's like the best time to have done it was 10 years ago and like the second best time is today, right? Um, but yes, I mean I don't I don't know what it would look like and and if we could do something that was targeted, I think that certainly there are some neighborhoods that are more I'm more concerned about than others for sure. Um, but that is just just something that I want to highlight.
I think we talk about it all the time and it sounds like everyone on council is like pretty dedicated to that idea as a concept, but I do think that it would be helpful to have some policy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Don't do what they did at Hai. Don't go find the lowest value land and then buy it up and take it in. Well, I will say the one of the examples that um that does work is stay in place support for renters and for homeowners
if there's Nia is right. A lot of this land has already changed hands, but some and I believe and I might be out over my skis here, but I think Durham already has some stay in place um support. So I think there are policies that we can leverage um to to to help people. Those are the those are the kind of programs that we see on other trail projects that are helping people um continue to live where they where they had before.
>> Okay. Um I'm going to pass over to council mavo. I will I do want to say colleagues, the food is set up uh in the back uh and the drinks are in the mini fridge. Go.
>> Thank you. I just want >> I don't leave it once but >> having because initially it was a group of residents who came to us specifically on this project and that's how we got the equitable blue equable equitable engagement blueprint. Um and yeah a this is not there is only one
small pocket on this corridor that is not already in neighborhoods that have wealth quite frankly. Um most of everything is through I mean I live around the corner from here. Um um and until you get to the kind of start piece of it um that was one of the nice things about this project is that whereas the some of the examples I think the one in Atlanta I always forget what it's called is kind of like the one that's belt line >> the belt line is the one that's really brought forward as like don't do that. Um, that was a that was one of the positives.
And then we are 15 years into the arc of gentrification at this point. So, I'm not saying that there aren't things we can do, but most of the things over there have already been sold, bought, reflipped, and and flipped again. And I think our property tax values demonstrate that unfortunately or for, you know, >> I think it's something to be conscious of, but you know, the trail is open to everybody. Um the road is open to everybody. Um I it's it's
yeah, we're I think it's part of Durham values, you know, and um I I just I just want to get the thing done. Um I think it's pretty clear where the trail is and yeah, let's just just do it. Go ahead. Uh yeah, go ahead.
>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. So just to that I appreciate Council Member Cook raising that. Um and I think you know Yeah.
And I appreciate Bo mentioning the equitable engagement piece, the sort of stuff we've done already. I do want to mention that the mayor and I are both part of the the new um uh abundance elected officials network. And one thing we talk about there is that like this is not a reason not to do this kind of project. We should do it and we need to create more supply of good stuff, but it does give us then the right to have other problems and this is one of them.
And so I think I'm I would I would have sort of support the idea of um further work into what kind of models there might be given where we are now. I don't know if that means as council member Cook is suggesting like uh you know renters um tax relief we only have for for homeowners. I think the models you're referencing council member Cook
are maybe more along the lines of like I know we've talked about a community development IPO model that's more around a commercial development not a trail but I I would support additional work thinking about what what the models are at this point. So appreciate you raising that. I will also say I'm glad that Sean was here also talk about the sort of that gravel gravel lot. It's that impervious gravel lot.
It's going to become a park with storm water. So we're losing some parking capacity, but I think people can also take our transit to the transit center which is right across the street and use that to take Amtrak. So there's a lot of there's different options we're creating for people which is great. Um thank you for the presentation.
Thanks for the update. Thanks city manager for bringing this to us. I know we've talked about these major projects that we wanted to see updates on. So, thank you for having the presentation come to us.
Love the vision. I do agree with the mayor. Let's get this done. I do have a couple questions about like money and timeline because I do I think it's pretty clear.
We were here about a year ago. Since then, the timeline's also pushed back another year, right? So, we've got to deliver this thing. We got to do it soon. Um I do get questions
from neighbors and others about the raise grant and when the raise grant expires. Can you please explain when that raise grant expires so folks have that information? >> Sean, I'm going to give it to Sean. So, um, transportation is >> So, I understand this is 2029, right?
>> So, >> I think I'm going to let Sean because he's knows exactly. >> Uh, so Sean Egan again for transportation. Uh, so we have a $9 million >> grant that was executed in January. Um so we have u access to that uh through 2029.
So uh the way that we will manage this is that once we get into construction the first you know $9 million worth of expenses that we have we will apply to that grant. So that will be the first uh reimbursement request that we do from the federal government. Uh and with this schedule, uh that should uh be uh plenty of time
for us to fully draw down and close out that grant agreement well ahead of the uh 2029 deadline. >> Okay, thank you for that. Um my next question is about the overall if you go back to the budget slide there. Um, so, so what we're saying is the total cost is like was it 35?
3 million. The construction budget was $25 million. >> I thought I thought the revenue and costs kind of equaled out there. >> The the revenue and the expenses equal out, >> right?
So, say more about that. 3 million, >> right? Equals the expenses, >> correct? >> But what about costs?
>> That that's included in the expenses. All the cost. >> I thought you said there's something that's not there. It's all Yeah. Let's
pull that slide up just so we can see that. So, we have 45 million plus in funding. And so, we're saying the next slide. So, we're saying that 45 expenses.
Go to the next one. >> That that is the next one. >> So this the budget for expenses, >> correct? Yeah.
All the expenses capture the total revenue costs in professional services, construction. >> So this is this is all in this is everything. We're saying this is it's going to cost 45. >> Yes.
>> To in total. >> Yes. >> And so if the cost goes above that, we won't have like we we have 45 plus in revenues, right? >> Yeah.
I mean, the idea is not to go over that. I mean, that's kind of one of the reasons why we're trying to bring on the construction manager at risk because they really are great at doing that constructibility review and helping us mitigate that risk before we even start construction. >> And and so and we're and um we go back to the revenue side. So, is the we have 13 million in the CIP
this year. So, this is the last time this is going to appear in the CIP. Correct. >> Correct.
>> Unless there's some other costs. >> Correct. I mean, we don't anticipate that. >> Yeah.
Okay. >> Again, that's what we we want to hold you all to. That's that's good to know. Um there's also mentioned in the memo about the possibility of an additional four million in federal funds.
That was seemed a little bit unclear. >> I think that's captured in the last line item on the funding there. That that's the $4 million. And so I understand that I don't know if Sean you have better or Bill maybe Bill I think actually has this one.
I think the the money is committed. It's just timing of it. >> Uh Bill Judge transportation as part of the um adoption of the state um um transportation plan the STIP uh they did updated cost estimates for all the
projects and as part of that yeah some additional funding was awarded to this project. that's captured in that um along with some other previous existing funding. 1 million approximately. So we still have to we'll still have to get some like municipal agreements for that money to be executed and awarded to the city.
But it is programmed. >> It is programmed in the STIP. >> It's programmed in the STIP. Yes. which is that that's and that's like remind me the stip is the one that's sort of like constrained or >> it's yeah it's the state um uh 10-year program but every the first five years are the committed portion so this is all in the committed window the first five years and gets adopted every two years and it was just adopted um earlier on in July >> so it's committed so so that but it's not we don't have the money so it's >> so yes it's committed it's been
programmed through the state committed. So, we will need to um get updated municipal agreements, get those executed in order to access the funds. But, >> and we would likely get that in in this current fiscal year or is that >> um yes, probably u sometime in the spring by the time the state's still updating all their um all their projects statewide, but we anticipate requesting those updated municipal agreements. I mean could it be like in the sort of next fiscal year or we are expecting it?
>> Well, I mean we can access it. Yeah, it's just a matter of programming and timing with the state um once they they get all that money um basically accounted for and awarded um and getting those agreements drafted. >> We are expecting it. >> We are expecting it.
We can't actually they're all reimbursements. So we have to expend the money and then reimburse it anyway. So, um, so it's not like they're actually sending us the money. They're just sending us a a check, not a
check, but a agreement, and then we get the reimbursement check after the expenses are incurred. >> Thank you. And as the memo says, I mean, essentially, if we don't get that money, we have to scale back our our our vision accordingly. Correct.
>> That would Yeah, we would have to. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Colleagues, anyone else?
Well, this is a transformative project. This this is really really exciting um to see this. I remember the initial conversations about it. Durham doesn't have a river like Chicago and you know the riverwalk in San Antonio.
So this this is our kind of defining riveresque project uh moment for our city. So this is really transformational. Really excited about it. I appreciate um Council Member Cook's um drilling and and reminding us of of the importance of equity.
Um it's never excessive to talk about that in Durham and and I appreciate that. I I will say that and this has already been um I think in toned um from the very beginning. I
would dare say this project probably would have been further along were it not for our engagement. Um we we this project has actually taken longer because we were so committed to the equity piece and we we spent money. We hired consultants to go out and talk to folk. I think the prominent place of Stagville in this project is a direct result of our equitable engagement um to make sure that all of the voices and colors and stripes of Durham are prominently perhaps the most prominent um place along this trail.
Some may argue there are others, but certainly one of the most prominent places has been left to the descendants of those that were um formerly enslaved. Um that that's that's because we spoke to the community. I think it's worth noting that a lot of the communities that we're concerned about, I've said this even with respect to small area plans. So, we're doing some small area plans in some areas that have already people we want to help are already gone. That's not an argument not to do them, but we did a lot of engagement along the trail. Um, affluent people are going to be more
affluent and and because of the trail and and and but it was it was important for us to make sure that to your point, Council Member Ris, that it was accessible physically and emotionally. um historically um culturally um for folk um it will elevate a city that's already in the stratosphere I think um and it's just really exciting. I'm looking forward to to enjoying this as as a resident and as a citizen uh of the city and and um thank colleagues present and past who have spent a lot of time uh on this project. But this this is a transformative um project and and I'm really excited.
So thank you for a great presentation and I hope we get all that money. >> Yeah. That's right. Thank you.
I'll yield to you, Mr. Mayor. >> I won't yield to the mayor. He's he chewing.
>> Colleague Colleague, you want to you had a >> colleague? Anybody else on the uh rail trail while the mayor? >> Just a really quick question. Bless you.
Um the public art. I have a question about the public art. So do you uh do you all as as part of the design team or you know the planners do you believe that we have I don't and this is not a gotcha or condescending question do you believe we really put our best foot forward with this project >> for the vision plan >> just everything >> um >> and and I preference why I'm asking okay and Sean is probably going to laugh about this One day I envisioned this like uh tower that goes over the train track that connects the bus station and the train station. But then I see this beautiful colorful bridge and I'm like yes, can we do this tonight? Um and then I'm thinking about, you know, Chicago has the bean, you know, it's like what is the iconic piece of art that's going to make this trail head like a landmark destination in the city that's going to
be so attractive that people have to go there when they come to Durham. and it's going to just activate people downtown. >> Sure. So, I think that um Stagville is going to be one of those moments.
Um there's a it's a three-piece project. Um one of the pieces is going to be an monumental sculpture. Um most of the funding is being put towards that sculpture. Uh we don't know what it's going to look like yet, but I think that that's one of the opportunities for a landmark uh iconic um sculpture moment for the trail.
Um we've got a couple of different opportunities across the trail um that are going to be a larger scale sculpture. Uh I can promise you uh it's one of my goals in the program to to get our own version of the bean here in Durham one day. Not that sculpture, but something like that. Um, you know, some we have some really exciting CIP projects coming up with bigger budgets. Uh, as you can imagine, a sculpture like that costs a whole lot of money. Um, but yeah, I think there's going to be some really
incredible artwork across the trail and a ton of time and thought and intention went into developing the vision plan. Um, we have tremendous amounts of precedent images to pull from. Um, it's it's I'm really excited about all of the art that we're going to see. Uh, and and and I think that again to that to that to to to your question, I think Stagville is going to be probably one of the most impressive and exciting um pieces of art.
>> I think we're on the same page because I we often talk about public art and it's like something that >> it's like a piece of metal that's color >> and it makes no sense to the normal person, >> but we call it public art. >> And then we're restrained by budget. And to most people, once you go over a few million, it's all the same. It's just as painful. So, I just don't want barriers restricting our creativity. If we're going to go iconic, then let's go iconic and let's put something there that's going to really generate I mean, Raleigh put that park in Midtown and
people are still talking about it, you know, >> where Carrie's downtown, too, you know. So, I just want us to have this these these iconic areas that that generate attention. And when people say, "Oh, did you go to I mean, what do people say? You go to Chicago?
" >> It's a big shiny metal bean. I don't even know what it's for, what it does, >> photo op, >> but you can look at yourself in it. But it's one of those landmarks that people have to go to. And when you go there, it's thousands of people, >> you know?
So, I I just want to make sure we uh we go big and I don't want to over complicate this to where it's like, well, we're trying to check every, you know, box and that means we're reducing what we can do everywhere else. >> Totally understand. Right there with you. >> Good.
>> We're going to do our best. >> Thank you. I I I just, you know, I'm a former teacher. You get written up when your creativity is dampened by yourself.
>> Go big. >> All right. item uh
>> 16. >> That's item 16. Well, >> thank you. Thank you all for the presentation.
>> Thanks much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right.
I'm going to declare that we still have quorum in the building. Callers you and I. >> Oh, I didn't even mean that. Cororum Corm houses and quorum. >> This was here. [Music]
We have quorum to talk about quorum. >> Okay. Good evening. Good evening.
Pat Walker again, uh, Housing and Neighborhood Services, here tonight to talk about the, uh, affordable accessory dwelling unit, ADU loan pilot. Um, it's only about 10 minutes. It's to tell you where I am now and where we where we started. Forever Home Durham.
There is a $95 million bond referendum approved um in 2019 that is combined with another $65 million to come up with a $159 million program that we're calling Forever Home Durham. There were over 3,000 affordable units as the goal to this program with strategies of construction, preservation, and home ownership support. 75
million piece of a bigger $160 million um program. So, the question is why ADUs? Why accessory dwelling units? Why are we doing this?
Um I asked the question and there's a couple of things that jump out. It's to expand affordable rental options, support intergenerational families. It's flexible. It's lower cost infill.
And it advances the missing middle and anti-displacement goals. Those are some things that don't normally jump out at you when you think about a small unit in the um back of a you know a back of a single family lot, but these things are very important really. They're called granny flats in in other places, but um ADUs will allow us to create units in a different setting for uh low and mod income families. So you want to remember that the unit is going to be rented to a 80% or below family.
So um in Forever Home Durham, uh there is a loan pilot section. So, this is a pilot program. What are we trying to achieve here? We believe we can create at least 20 affordable ADUs.
We're going to do that by providing lowinterest loans for eligible homeowners. Eligible homeowners are um homeowners that are living in have have property in the city of Durham. Now, they have to remember that they have to serve the renters that are at 80% or below. And then we're going to test and evaluate to see what we've done good, what we can improve on, and to see if this program can actually scale up.
Um, you know, I was here earlier and we talked about a 180 unit rental project. We're really making homeowners affordable housing developers, which is an opportunity, but there's a lot of resources to make a single homeowner um an affordable housing landlord. They have to understand tenants. They have to
understand property management and that's one of the things that complicates this program. So when we go back and test and evaluate what we did right, what we could do better, that's a really good and um needed piece of this program, the evaluation piece. 75 million in it. Um we're seeking to uh contract with Korum Homes to administer the loans and give support.
Um we talked to a couple of um stakeholders stakeholders to see how we would structure this program and you can imagine you could have lenders that as they say we'll lend all day. You can talk to um architects they'll build it but to help a homeowner to get through permitting design talking to the bank it's really multi-phaseed. So quorum and as we put out the RFP, we wanted a um a contractor to administer
the whole program construction, coordinate with the contractors, work with the banks, work with the financing to get the projects through from beginning to end. So we also wanted to make sure that we had affordability covenants um in these uh projects. We believe it's about an average of $80,000 per unit. And the homeowners will have to sign covenants so that these units are only available for low mod income families.
They'll probably be efficiencies ones or twos. Um, one of the things is at this point as the program is still being created, we're working with quorum if selected to create a program manual. So we both the city and the homeowners and um quorum understands how the program is going to run. So the the path to selection at this point we did a lot of research.
We talked to um self-help. We talked to um other local stakeholders. We talked to
um architects about what it takes to actually build an ADU. um we talked to nonprofits to kind of get an idea of how do we reach these goals that indicated what we put in the solicitation and um from the solicitation we actually only got one response and that is quorum. However, we found that they had the experience and the capacity because they are one of the few firms at this point that are actually building ADUs in the city and working with we think the type of owners and renters that we're trying to target the low and mod income renormous houses. They've shown us that they have developed 20 at this point 20 um ADUs in the city. They're actually a microenterprise that's working with the city um at this point using CDBGC CV funds. Um they've come in, we've talked
to them, they've demonstrated that they have strong contractor and community partnerships that they've worked with um low modin income homeowners that could be problematic. We're we're not talking about working with someone who has a $500,000 line of equity equity credit and can build this on their own with no help. So, and we also determined that that that they do have the capacity to manage this homeowner type program. It's a lot of handholding sometimes with homeowners and that's um you know takes a lot of effort.
It takes a lot of um interpersonal skills to do that. That's why quorum houses at this point. Here's a list of projects that they've successfully completed and the types of units that they have in their portfolio to be able to be made available to folks who want to take advantage of the program.
We've uh structured the contract to make sure that there is a balance in oversight and accountability. um we've built in regular reporting. The loan terms with the homeowners um as identified has to be approved by the city. And when we look at the program, the metrics that we normally talk about are just units built.
We think there'll be 20 units, but we also want to talk we also want to make sure we're tracking um the affordability. We want to track the types of owners that are taking advantage of it and to see if folks are actually satisfied that the program meets their needs. Remember, we're putting on average, we think about $80,000 into um you know, a 900 1,200 square foot uh backyard unit. And then built into the program is a um evaluation piece that we think is very important to see if it's if it's scalable, if it's something that we want to expand and do again in the future.
Right now, we've issued the um RFP. We've selected quorum. We've um bringing the item to council now. Contract execution.
The first task in that will be a program manual development so that both quorum and the city are on the same page in terms of how this moves forward. Um homeowner homeowner outreach we think is going to happen soon after that in fall of 2025. Um early next early next year with the first loans being um executed early of 2026 and ongoing evaluation from there. Thank you.
Any questions? >> Um, thank you. I have a just a couple of quick questions. >> Um, >> so you said earlier, but that lots of places are willing to make the loans.
It's just like connecting the process. That's hard. Mhm. >> And so I guess I'm wondering why we chose then to to do the loans ourselves
as opposed to just connecting with these like making more efficient the process to access loans because it seems like a the bulk of this is actually the loan money and so it would it not be more cost-effective to just like facilitate loans being received from all these folks who are really excited to make them. Why is the city fronting that money? Well, making the loans not easy. Um, the difficulty is understanding whether or not the selection of this borrower fits within the program and whether there's actually a need to lend the money to this borrower.
So what what we find is we're going to make available a low interest loan to someone who wants to build affordable housing in their on on their lot. >> So um lenders will do that. However, in
building what in building this this unit, what we find out is that there is a lot of uh coordination with their contractor with their designer with permitting >> and that is the difficult part, >> right? And so I guess my question is why are we not doing that part? Why are we why would we not do that part in conjunction with a so like someone who would do loans like a bank or someone else? >> Oh, I'm sorry.
Because when when we talk to the banks, that is the piece that they're saying they're not good at. >> So, we know that the homeowner needs services to help them design it and build it, as well as services to help them finance it. The banks say they can do the financing, but they're really not good at the um the design part and the um permitting part. But we are also we are doing the loans as well, right? Because that isn't that
>> we'll we'll have the we'll have the form of the loan and you can almost think of it as the administrator brokering it, making sure the loans are filled out by the homeowners and we would then take the loan and record the loans. Does that make sense? >> But the lo but we're not we are not working with a bank for example. So, we're not like >> we're not facilitating a bank giving the loan out.
We are the city is giving the loan. And I I think I'm not sure if maybe I'm not asking this question right, but like what I'm confused about is that is the bulk of the money that we're spending. >> And if there are banks that are willing to expend that money um and we could then do the facilitation on the outside or wouldn't it be so wouldn't we be able to do so much more? like wouldn't this amount just stretch >> well >> so much further?
>> Well, the bank note no banks replied to do this program. That that's one thing if that's answering your question like yeah I I got to jump in here. So like as
I said before I'm on the board of Self-Up Credit Union, right? So Self-Help could not be a more missionalign financial institution. Self-help developed a pilot of ADU lending to see if they could develop a product. They had a hard time doing it because it was hard to pencil out for the borrowers.
So there's no banks right now that'll make an ADU loan as far as I know, right? That's the issue. So it's no banks are making ADU loans. So it's not like we could do it with a bank.
So this is why we're taking on this role to sort of pilot this. But I just want to make banks do a lot of lending, but they're not lending the ADUs >> and they're not going to lend at the interest rate we're offering. >> Yeah. >> Well, yeah, I figured that.
But I mean, it would be easier it would be easier to offset an interest rate than to front the entire like it would be more cost effective to do that than to front the entire loan. But I I get confused because he said earlier that >> the loans were really excited to do it or the banks were really excited to do it. >> So if and and what what I mean is in the task to build an ADU, right? The homeowner is faced with working with an architect, a designer, a contractor, right?
>> That's not insignificant amount of work. And we want to make sure that these things are successful. So when we talked to the bank to say, "Hey, could you do this and help folks become affordable housing developers, their focus really wasn't on the administration, the construction administration or contractor selection or design or working with an architect, helping a homeowner work with an architect. >> Okay.
>> Their expertise was in >> the actual >> loan administration. Right. Right. And so, >> and that's and that's only a that was what we found was just a piece of what we needed to make this successful.
>> Okay. And so then once we kind of had that information, was there a conversation about having the banks do that part of the loan while we did the part for the design and all of the like kind of like leading the way to it? We we talked about that and when we put out the RFP, we tried to get a consortium of folks together, put the banks together with the architects, with the designers
come in together, >> but they didn't they didn't respond. >> Isn't Isn't that what happened with Forever Home Durham? Like the uh the other loans like it was really hard to get the banks to work with the program we had in place. So >> in this case, we own the entire supply chain.
>> Yes. Right. >> From beginning to end. So it just makes it easier.
>> Yeah. I mean it makes it easier but it makes it a lot more expensive. Right. And so I'm like when I'm thinking about like you're talking about like how do we expand it up in the future and I'm like the way that we expand it up in the future is that we don't cover the entirety of the loan.
>> Right. Because there's like to me I'm like we're not that's a big amount of money. It's a I mean and I understand that it's like 80,000 per unit is not like a huge amount but like that's a it we wouldn't be wanting to like gift that money, right? like it's a loan for a reason because the we would need it back, right?
Like the investment is not good enough that like we would just pay outright for an 80% unit. >> That's correct. >> Right. Like we could if we were going to just build units, we could build things.
>> There were there were a couple of ways we thought about how you would actually build an ADU with with the result of the ADU being what we're trying to accomplish. Could you lend it? Could you grant it? Do you lend it to a low-income family?
>> And what we landed on was we will create a a product where it is a low interest rate loan, >> 30 years to a homeowner. And as long as the homeowner rents the unit to a family at 80% or below, >> then we would reach our goal. >> That that's sort of how it's it's landed now. Now, we could probably when we talk about lessons learned, learn learn that if we wanted to, you know, ramp it up more.
This is what we need to do. 75 million. That automatically limits you to a production of 20. >> Right. >> Now, maybe it might have been more attractive if it was a 200 unit pilot. Maybe more folks would have jumped in.
>> But at this point, with 20 units, this is um >> the best >> I think we I think our best chance to be successful. Council member, >> I have Can I ask my other question? >> Yeah. Yeah.
Go ahead. >> Okay. Um I I'm just curious about enforcement on the rent and like how how the rents are set. I know that this is like a huge process that the housing authority does and it's like very complicated.
Um, so I was just wondering like how first of all if y'all have any um are if there's going to be any sort of like working with how to get those leases like how to get the units leased up >> and then um how to ensure that the rents are are the 80% AMI. So, we would have to work with every new landlord and explain to them the income restrictions and what we need to see in their leases and what they are now affordable housing landlords. So, um we have a compliance department that does that type of training and they'll have to train every
household on what the program rules and regulations are. >> Yeah. >> Good. All right.
you. I was uh go >> there. >> So, thank you, Mr. Walker, for the presentation.
First thing to just say, like I I know this is again one of the things we've been asking about. This was part of Forever Home. I've been asking since I got on council, where's the ADU pilot? So, I'm glad we're launching it.
Um I'm also glad it sounds like you're proposing we work with Cororum, right? I mean, Cororum is completely mission aligned. I know Tover was here earlier, great partner. So, I think it's a great idea.
>> Yes. >> To council member Cook's comments, like I think the devil is in the details on this. Then again, like as a self-help board member, we've looked at this and I know that self-help tried to make a lending product that could be scalable and had a hard time penciling it out given the small loan size, given the sort of the low-inccome home or the homeowners who are going to be supporting these. So my questions are like just on the details.
So what's the max loan size? We said we're going to do 20. Is the max loan size 80,000 or do we
add do we know that? >> We don't know that yet. We're so one of the things is we're going to work on creating a program manual that will answer those questions. But if you run the numbers, we're talking about >> based on unit size, you know, an efficiency of onebedroom or a twobedroom, we're talking about between um I think it was between 75 and $150,000 per unit that averaged out to $80,000 per unit.
So, we could go higher. It could be as high as 150 depending on the >> Okay. Um, so I look forward to you working those details out. So, the the lender will be the city of Durham.
>> Yes. Yes. We will be one of the lenders who's >> So, so a homeowner may have their own funds. So, our $80,000 we're trying to make it gap financing so that we're able to um stretch stretch it out. So, um, the homeowner may bring some of their own funds or
>> equity or or or debt >> either either. But we we we we don't we want to make sure folks aren't overburdened, >> right? But that would be the that would be like in a second mortgage on the ADU or this would be the first position. >> This depending depending on the homeowner's situation depending on >> I think that's probably I think it's >> frankly unlikely to happen having their own.
Yeah. I think that's unlikely. >> Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, if someone has given what we know, >> if somebody has their home and they're debtfree, you would almost expect that they'd be able to borrow something. So, in most cases, it'll probably be secondary financing. >> So, so the lender is the city of Durham, maybe some other funds there, right? So, how do So, I know that we've um we have a first-time home buyer down payment assistance program that's been underutilized, too clunky to use.
I know we're working on trying to making that easier to use. How do we know this is not going to be a clunky process getting those loans from the city? >> It's a pilot program. Um I don't really
see it as being clunky. >> Like who's going to underwrite the loan? >> That is cororum's >> cororum >> in their scope. >> Okay.
They'll undo the underwriting. So when cororum says we sort of like we review the loan documents, it checks out >> city you all make the loan. >> Yep. and they'll deliver the forms to us and we'll run them by um you know our internal team for approval and at that point we would be able to approve the loan, record the loan and then um quorum would administrate building the units for >> so there is a there's another sort of like approval process within the city.
>> Yes. >> Yeah. So it's applied I just encourage you to think about how we can do this in the most like streamlined way. I know this has been an issue timing always matters in these transactions.
Um, so I assume in this contract there's also some management fee for quorum, right? It's not just all loan capital. They there's some >> management fee or whatever in there. Yeah.
75. 75. I think they've um identified $150,000. >> Okay.
>> As their fee. >> So my last question is, and I know that Charlotte is now doing this uh for for folks in Charlotte. I think the Charlotte program at least in part or fully becomes for forgivable at some point. Would we consider in Durham either partial or full loan forgiveness at some point down the road?
Is that something we're considering or thought about? >> Actually, I considered forgivable in the beginning. Um, if it's forgivable, you get more uptake, more folks can take advantage of it, but after consulting with our internal team, the feeling was start with a low interest rate for 30 years. Maybe one of the lessons learned is it should be forgivable >> or in certain situations making it forgivable might make sense.
>> So no, this is good. It's a pilot. So I guess for the manager, well, I'd love to get an update on this like >> six months a year down the road to see how many families if if we're at zero at a year, then sort of suggest maybe the terms. So I think it is a pilot. Let's do that, but let's make sure we have
like a some feedback loop so we can see how it's going. >> Yeah. >> So thank you. >> Can I just build off of that?
the the what I was saying earlier about the maybe the wanting to work with other lenders is that in terms of like an actual like units per dollar spent, if we make this a forgivable loan, it's actually not going to be that advantageous to us. Like we could fund more lower income units in a different manner other than doing this, right? So like that that is if we didn't make >> our return on investment is not very good if this was a if this was a forgivable loan, if it was just an expenditure, >> right? But no other loan lenders are lending to freight.
>> I understand that. But what I'm saying is that the cost that it takes to build a a unit of lowincome housing like our return on investment for this would not be would not be good if it was a forgivable loan. And so that's I'm just I'm concerned. >> Well, that that right that's sort of like that's right.
That's a policy choice, right? But yeah, >> right. But like yes, if we're going to make a choice on like where we're going to put our money, if we can build two units instead of one, like that's what we're going to do generally speaking. So
that that was kind of why I was asking that question about >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So these are all things we can learn. >> It's my turn.
Um thank you. Um how how many so at certain is it restricted to 80% AMI for for how long is it restricted to 80% AMI? The life of the loan >> for 30 years. >> For 30 years.
Okay. Um, is there a way to because I when we think about ADUs and part of the reason you promote ADUs for folks is so that they can age in place, right? Um, that that's a you move you move family behind, you move a nurse behind. And so, at some point, we need to think about some of those folks who are getting those loans aren't going, you know, like a 30-year loan is a long time. And so there needs to be when we do that reassessment um not having that restriction if it's for their own care or for family that may not be at 80% area median income. Like we need to have some flexibility because you you promote ADU for lots of
reasons, not just for >> um uh providing affordable housing. That's one good reason. But it's also uh to be able for to for folks to be able to stay in their home because it allows them to have housing and and and potentially care and not have to go into assisted living because they are able to have care living on site. >> Right.
Then the question is but is that like city subsidized loan or is that just sort of that that families like? Well, I'm saying that at that point if they've if they've lived in that unit or that house and they've they've been in it and they've rented for 10 or 15 or 20 years, I think it's I think I at least I'm I mean I'm not going to be on counsel, but I would hope our policy makers would think about the other value or the other reason that you're providing that. Right. So, if they've done part they're been part of the program and they've followed. >> Oh, you mean have sort of like have rented to a low-inccome? Yeah, they've rented to a low-inccome program person or they've been in the program, they've been renting, they've been good, whatever, and now their own life has, you know, I don't want to ding potentially also a low-inccome person or
a person on a fixed income for whatever for building, you know, for getting that type of loan from us. So, it's just something to think about. And and then did we look at the LA program because I think when you think about ADU development, LA is the the model that is lifted up as the one that's actually been able to crank it out. Yes.
I just say this is a creative and potentially life-changing use of municipal funds. I look forward to seeing what we learned from the pilot. Thanks for the presentation. >> Thank you.
>> Yeah, really grateful and I'm I'm glad that we are giving local innovation and opportunity. Um the slide why Cororum houses I think it goes even deeper. " So, uh that's a true Durham success story.
>> Yep. Local innovation. All right. >> Which one is this one?
Item 20 Rock >> 22 >> 20 >> I'm sorry >> this is Rock got two trails for you today. >> I thought we I was like no we're done. >> Welcome Mr. Walut.
So, I don't have my glasses on and you don't have yours on either. Where it says the amount of minutes for the presentation, I think that's a one zero. >> It's either going to be six or seven. >> We'll take it.
>> 10 minutes. [Laughter] >> Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Mayor Prom, members of council. I'm WDE Walcott with your parks and recreation department. Um, and speaking of transformational trail projects, like Mayor Pro Tim
Middleton said earlier this evening, I'm here to talk about a very exciting opportunity uh that we're able to be a part of. And this is a transformational project. And this is an opportunity that doesn't come very often. And like every great transformational project, it takes a lot of people and a lot of coordination.
And in your packet, it talks about this is one of those u multi-jurisdictional public private partnerships to make happen. So we the city of Durham is a partner in this. There's three or four financial partners, but there's probably close to 10 other partners and nonprofits from around the region working together to make this happen to transform approximately 26 miles of unused railroad running from Durham to Pson County into a multi-use trail. And like I said, uh to make something like this happen takes a lot of great partners, takes a lot of great coordination, and that's what we have in
front of you. What it also takes is some studies and due diligence. And tonight, the reason you're here, and this is a presentation, we are not going to be requesting any action at the next council meeting, but is just to receive a for you to receive a presentation on part of that due diligence, which is a feasibility study. So you'll hear the components of that from our vendor design uh destination by design and they'll talk through that plan and the steps it went through.
Now uh this this plan was funded I mentioned we have multiple funding partners that included the city of Durham uh included Pson County and included Durham County. And then it also uh had a partnership with a $400,000 grant that uh came to us thanks to Triangle West Transportation Planning Organization. That was for the feasibility study that you'll learn more about tonight. The next work session we'll be back and we'll be talking giving you more
information and more details about the ownership of this rail corridor and asking you to authorize the manager to move forward with expending funds that we already have had approved by you in a previous CIP to be put toward the acquisition of the property. And what I mean by putting toward the acquisition of the property, this is property that will be owned by North Carolina Department of Transportation. So this is this will be our contribution along with Pson County and Durham County toward the acquisition and that will be the next uh work session. So again, tonight uh this will be a presentation from Destination by Design talking about part of the due diligence and acquiring this property.
So I'd like to welcome up uh Mr. Eric Wbridge to begin the presentation. >> Thanks, Wade. Appreciate the introduction.
>> Yeah, it's good. >> Yes. Hey,
>> oh my gosh. Holy cow. Are you serious? And we were friends.
>> That is awesome. Wow. We got to catch up. Um, well, good evening, uh, Mayor Council.
Good to meet you. Um, my name is Eric Oridge, president Destination by Design. Oh man, this is crazy. Uh, that caught me off guard.
>> No, that's awesome. Oh, man. Um, like I said, I'm president with Destination by Design. We've we're the lead firm uh that's that's been leading the the consultant team on this particular project.
Um, but with no doubt, Tool Design has been a huge partner with us on this project. In fact, in fact, they've handled a lot of the granular uh uh engagement, if you will. Sarah Johnson, who was here for I don't know, we probably hung out for about three or four hours before uh she had to go take care of her kids. So, um I'm going to try to handle this solo. We of course
have a great project team behind us, not only DPR staff, but also county officials um and um Triangle West representatives, East Coast Greenway as well. So, um, if some of my colleagues want to jump in, um, especially during Q&A, then that would be great, of course. Um, so, as mentioned, we're we're talking about 18 miles that are within, uh, the Durham County, but, of course, 26 miles total if you connect downtown Durham all the way to Roxboro. com is where the information here resides.
But for this agenda, I want to go real quickly through the discovery and phase one engagement that we went through. Uh then we moved into plan development. Then we moved into a second round of engagement and then I want to jump into some of our trail se segment recommendations. I heard the mayor just now like 30 minutes down to 10.
Can you do it? I don't know if I can do that, but I'm going to try my best. Um
>> I he just said real quick and I nodded my head. So >> I hear you. Um so we're we're about uh a year into this planning process. 3 of this entire timeline.
Um as well tremendous amount of work. We started out with a whole series of project goals. Of course went into identify the assets along this part uh along the corridor. the tremendous partnerships, you know, how how do we not only identify those but engage those uh look for connectivity opportunities?
Use the planning process to create unity. Uh how do we create a distinctive rail trail experience and try to start identifying properties and and interesting areas that that can create um some real unique spaces along the way and then of course come up with a with a great strategy. The first phase of engagement went from January to uh in well into March. We uh launched a a project brand, a project
sheet, a website, did quite a bit of social media postings, uh produced a community online survey, a whole series of public workshops, focus group events, uh and various popup events as well. Uh we had close to 3,000 responses on our um on our online survey looking at general usage improvements and priorities. Uh we had an online mapping tool. So we collected a lot of geographic information as well and uh had 88 zip codes represented a lot of interest in this project across the region.
Um but certainly in the immediate area. I don't want to get into all the details of the first survey. Uh there's tons of data there. It's all on the website.
But around 71% strongly supported the project. Around another 10% with support. Uh 15% in the original survey strongly opposed the project. I think we probably ran around a 10 to 15%
of of kind of opposition, if you will, whether that be from the online survey and from some of the other uh meetings as well, particularly when we we started to engage land owners that were along the railro corridor. Uh as we move north, uh the the interactive map, we collected 578 map respondents that are geographically identified. uh 1,200 plus of those we identified as kind of opportunities related to connections, outdoor recreation, development, education. On the concern side, about 700 of those uh centered around safety, sustainability, and uh the provision of of amenities for our public workshops.
We had 174 participants across three meetings. Uh the North Regional Library, Edison, and the Durham County Library. We had three different focus groups during the first round of engagement. North Durham Community, Stagville Descendants Council, Bragtown Community Association, and then we had 425
participants engage us in popup events. So, a total of 642 of those uh uh um folks were engaged in one of those events. Transitioning real quick over to plan development, you know, in our analysis, trying to take all the things that we learned from the community, combine that with our discovery, analysis, environmental related conditions, obviously trying to connect to nearby trails, nearby amenities, um, assess various environmental opportunities. We know that from a natural environment standpoint, we've got 20 21 public parks, six nature preserves, eight lakes and rivers, 12 bike ped connector trails that are all within this corridor uh which we which we identified the the primary corridors with a mile of either side, but there's certainly some incredible connections that are just beyond that. So, we wanted to be sure to capture the that. Um, moving to the built environment section, we've got 26
neighborhoods, 12 public schools, four business districts, two recreation centers, 11 historic sites, four art centers, and three what we called trail town type of communities that are in North Durham that um were historical communities along the rail corridor that were certainly of interest to us from a built environment standpoint. We did a tremendous amount of field work, leveraged a lot of the relationships that we developed in public meetings to of course meet with people on the ground. Someone calls, someone wants to meet, we're there. Uh so a lot of fun meeting uh various members to to of the community to drum up ideas uh conduct uh various inspections and so forth.
Uh typical trail section uh you know 12 to 14 feet wide as we kind of get out into the county environment. certainly connecting into the urban core of Durham and to the Durham uh rail trail. Certainly want to tie in um there and probably go a little bit wider as well.
Uh in regards to road crossings, there's 21 of those. Uh we've laid out from from uh from what type of treatment would be most likely recommended once you moved into the engineering stage. We try to lay those out. Uh we heard some of these in the presentation earlier uh but some of those could be unsalized especially where the trail traverses in in uh some of your neighborhoods and certainly getting more aggressive and signalized as we get across some of our major crossings.
But there's 21 of those in total. After we did the entire round of analysis, we moved into a second round of engagement from May 1st to September 22nd. again uh pushing out all of our recommendations providing opportunities for online opportunities and um we conducted a second survey that obtained about 453 total responses. Um we we presented conceptual designs, trail crossings, various trail design
opportunities as well. And uh once again we moved we kept around that 71% of positive uh went to 11% negative. Um some just didn't provide uh specific comments at all. Um but lots of comments and ideas that fed into the plan recommendations.
So for the second round of engagement we had 259 total participants engaged. Uh once again, three workshops, three different focus groups, um some more intensive um engagement with water resources, transportation, housing, and once again uh due to an incredible project team participated in a a number of popup events throughout the community. Some of the big takeaways uh from from the focus group themes uh particularly in phase two were was a big emphasis on trail amenities, trail heads, waysides. Um everything from what
those would look like, how would they provide connectivity and also concerned about the loss of privacy, the loss of crime, gentrification, you know, a lot of the same issues we've heard earlier. Uh community connections and a lot of interest in connecting to schools and to neighborhoods. uh as well history, culture, interpretation, Stagville, sorry, Stagville, Bragtown, your indigenous communities. Um how do we represent those in an honest and uplifting way?
Um and then continuing with implementation and engagement uh throughout the process, moving into some of the trail segment recommendations and and I'll conclude with this. There's there's six of these that will be identified in in the final master plan which is under in its second review with the project team. Um going to spend a most of the time here talking about the project core but but I do want to highlight the significance of this entire corridor. I mean it just has
such an amazing significance uh to to the city. Uh but from Aendell Road to to Hamlet to the underpass to Hamlin Road, we've got um about 86% of this in the city, a good portion in the urban growth boundary. We've got atgrade crossings at E Club, Rowan Oak, Dearborn, Thompson. Uh two incredible underpass and art opportunities at the I85 underpass and Camdom Avenue as well.
A whole ho host of key connections. So I'm not going to list all of those off. I think everyone here uh is probably quite familiar with those. Uh NC DOT does control some property at Candom Avenue.
We wanted to explore a couple options for trail heads there. Uh you know, one of those centered uh around great connectivity. Uh one of those with a little bit more of a of a plaza uh fill as well. Uh underneath I 85, incredible opportunity to to do public art as mentioned. Uh so we wanted to start to to set set the stage for some of that. Ellerby Creek
connector uh the city owns wetland parcels there opportunity for education and of course con continuing and connecting with with uh that greenway at some point in the future as well. Uh E-Club Boulevard uh the city does own a track there. We explored that with a trail head, potential amenities as well. Uh and then of course the crossing at E- Club, probably a good opportunity for a midblock um um a refuge there along that particular roadway.
Uh Bragtown, tremendous opportunity to explore things from a cultural standpoint. How does the the trail interact with not only the community but the business community? So we had a lot of on the ground meetings there in that in that particular community as well. We we did look at the idea of a sort of a roundabout along the rail trail here that would slow down users uh that are moving across Dearborn
and then of course provide a great place for some public art in the center of of that. Uh moving on up uh Hamlin Road to Penny's Bend. um have a number of major connections here including Penny's been itself, the mountains of Sea Trail, uh the proposed Cub Creek Greenway, Sandy Ridge Elementary, and East Coast Greenway would be a shared route through through this this section as well. Um we've brought a number of options to connect the the rail trail to the mountains of sea trail and to Penny's bend itself um with the trail head opportunity and even a potential uh realignment itself um for Snow Hill. Moving from Penny's Ben up to Rodendran Drive about 60% of this uh planning section is in the urban growth boundary. Um, lots of great connections with Little Li, Little River Elementary, Lucas Middle, Durham Technical College,
U, Kataba Trail Farm, historic location of the Great Trading Path, East Coast Greenway. Again, once again, uh, so our plan just highlights the opportunities uh, of these various connections. There's no lack of them, that's for sure. Road to Dentrin Drive, more of a residential style road.
Um potential for crossing there road to gender to ball road we show six atgrade crossings through this particular planning section. Key connections destinations stag the historic site Horton Grove Nature Preserve Lake Nikki Mangum Elementary Cove Greenway would diverge in this particular planning section. Uh, of course, Triangle Land L land conservancy co controls a number of properties along the corridor and uh have been a great partner throughout some of these um throughout the planning process. Lake Mickey, incredible opportunity for connectivity there along with Mangum Elementary School. And then we've got
Ball Road to Red Mountain, which has three road crossings. you know, we're fully out of the the city's urban growth boundary, but we've got Rouge Mont Rouge train depot, which is controlled privately, but we do see a great northern northern uh terminus and and trail head u that that's available there for for this this community that could become quite a little trail town in northern Durham County. Red Mountain Road to Person County line. Pretty small section here, but that gets us to the final to to the uh to the county boundary.
Uh key implementation takeaways. Corridor current o ownership. You know, this corridor is owned in fee. You know, this is not a a railbank situation, but a a fee simple acquisition situation.
Uh which is a good thing. Uh the corridor purchase the conservation fund on behalf of NC DOT is leading this. They're currently in phase one and two environmental analysis. You've got federal funding that would certainly be typical and critical for an
implementation of of a project like this. As you all well know, our rough estimate, rough order magnitude, you know, depending on what level of amenities you all would be built over time. We looked, I think, mostly at this as as a transportation corridor, but certainly want to to activate uh the trail as well, but around three to three and a half million uh per mile there. So next steps as was mentioned ear earlier is you know establishing roles for Durham County, the city of Durham uh to for ongoing maintenance, acquisition and management.
That's the fastest I I could deliver that presentation. >> That's that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Um questions, colleagues?
>> All right. >> Oh, okay. " >> Javier, I thought we wrote to have a beer right there.
>> Your middle school connections almost got you. Yeah. So, >> go ahead, Carl. >> So, y'all, I'm I'm I'm on the TPO, but I'm also on the advisory team for the um for the Durham Duxo Rail Trail.
So, so it's been good to work with your team. Thank you so much. Exciting stuff. Brooke is here and Ellen from the county.
So, really exciting stuff. I just have a couple questions. I think Andrew is here as well from East Coast Greenway Alliance. So, as I understand there's some sort of like we're not being asked for any kind of action now or at the meeting on Monday, but as I understand there's some important timelines coming up to like acquire the property that relate to like funding from like NC DOT and sort of who has funding when and when it's got to be.
So, I just want to make sure I understand what we're what the council is being asked to do and to make sure that we're not slowing you down in the process of acquiring the land and moving the project forward. Uh yes, council member council member Ris this is just the presentation to get a better understanding of the feasibility study in the plan and no action is being requested at the subsequent council meeting. >> We will be back at the next council work
session >> at that sorry >> two weeks from today. >> Yeah two weeks from today. Okay. At that point, we are prepared to provide a draft of the agreement that we would have with NC DOT that would allow the manager to enter into agreement and for us to use the funding that we already have approved and budgeted in CIP to chip in toward the acquisition of the property.
>> Okay. Want to make sure that that's clear. So that's that's good. But then there's also a question about the so will we also be asked to approve the feasibility study at some point soon because I know that part of the part of what the feasibility study does is inform us about sort of what we need to know, what's there, what we need to be aware of, but also allows the project team with that feasibility study approved to then move to the next step.
And again, I don't I want to make sure we're not slowing down the folks from from the work on this. So, do we need to approve that soon or what's the timeline on that? >> One of our partners can correct me here tonight. Um, I don't believe we're in a position that we're slowing any of this progress down. I am unclear whether
there will be multiple actions requested at the next uh work session. Council, to my knowledge, right now it is just getting councils um to take action on the funding to enter into an agreement to purchase the corridor. I I don't >> That's what That's what will come in two weeks of the work session. >> That's correct.
I haven't been involved in any dialogue about um having a an action requested to approve a plan. >> That said, we'll we'll check back in with the project team uh and and verify it. I don't know, Ellen or Brooke, I don't know if you guys want to comment on that or if you'd prefer to talk offline, but >> I mean, you came all this way away to join us, >> right? Um, Ellen Beckman, Durham County.
Um, thank you. Um, so I can share what we're doing at the county, which you may want to follow. Um, so we are, you know, working with the team to finalize the report. Um, the by the end of the month,
October. Um, so after that, we'll have the final document and for the county, then we intend to bring that back and ask for approval. It'll probably be in like December or so. You bring that back to you'll bring that back to us >> uh to well I I'll bring it to the county.
It's kind of up to you guys to decide what you want to do. >> You guys are doing a formal plan adoption at the county just to to have the the county's >> blessing on the feasibility study and the project team's preference is that the city bring that forward for the council's consideration as well. >> Yes. >> Okay.
But in terms of timing on that, so is that so your plan to bring it back to the county by >> I think it'll be December based on our timing of the you know finalization of the document. Um but I think um Wade said it clearly that the acquisition is more the immediate step and that's that needs to um happen before midn November. So that's that's >> um >> I think that's the more critical step to make sure this keeps going forward. Yeah. >> At this point. Well, then if I could
just sort of then for for staff, if I could just sort of like once we get that funding, that's the first thing. Hope we can move quickly then to get on the agenda if there's additional if we need to get that that that feasibility study approved so we can keep the thing going. So, I just want to make sure that's on the radar screen. So, that would be the next step after.
Yeah. >> Yes. We're the agenda item is already submitted and we're going to bring that to you in two weeks for the work session. Awesome.
Any other comments? >> All right. >> Good. Thank you.
>> Oh, go ahead. >> I just wanted to say I love the project. I think it's awesome and um it is very much transformative and maybe hopefully in 10 years everything will be done and we can just ride our bikes or walk on it. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Um and I know you said you were tracking about 11 to 15% dissatisfied or against it. I think they all showed up to one of the county meetings I heard and uh I it was on my
calendar to go and I remember the uh I think it was the sheriff one someone said don't go don't go. So I I guess we can be really sensitive about the communication. They some I guess some folks think that the city is trying to impede upon their land out in the rural parts. But I think this is good for the entire region.
You know I think it I think it really is and I I'll be very uh vocal and supportive of it. Also, you know, I think I appreciate you said that and I I appreciate Brooke and the folks in the county being deeply involved in some of the engagement and I think I mean you all done this a bunch of times. this often it seems like the life cycle of these trail projects when they first give a pose existing land owners are like I'm not so sure but I think over time as folks understand how this can be transformational as you said this so I think people will get on board and I'm glad that there's there's not a large chunk of folks who are objecting but I think this that kind of objection is as you've done many times this is not unusual right to see some resistance so I think we can overcome that with a great plan this will be transformational and I'm really
excited about All right. Thank you. All right. >> Yeah.
>> 21. >> Oh, okay. Wait, is on 22 a presentation or is it just a pulled item? >> Just pull.
I mean, we have a resident just waiting. I can just Yeah. So, I'll just do that real quick. Yeah.
Um, Sean, give me one moment. I thought that 22 is a was a presentation. It's just a pulled item and I I have a resident that's just waiting. I'm so sorry.
22 is something we're addressing on the next general body meeting. But, uh, I've held you here for hours. >> Yeah. And I've got things to say, so I guess I'll say them and get out of y'all's hair. But, number 22.
>> Three three minutes here, right? Um well, the reason why I'm here today uh is actually because I don't just disagree with this item. I actually don't understand why we're even doing this process. Um I know we're kind of required to do it, I think, under state law.
But, um I really want you all to start thinking about these paper streets and these places where people ask to uh for us to give away uh city property because that's what it is right now. It's city property. That could be a street, it could be a greenway, it could be green space permanently. um and give it to a private land owner um in this case for the purpose of combining three different lots into one single family home uh lot.
And so to start off with, this goes against the vision zero action plan that we all passed uh unanimously here. Um the very first action on that action plan is to update land use and zoning code to reduce VMT uh vehicle miles traveled. And so when you think about what this street could be if there was a connection here, um the intersection of Cliff and Rosedale is actually only a quarter mile from the
bus stop for the number 10 and 10B. Um as the crow flies, right? So pretty short distance, but today you'd have to actually walk um over a mile, including large sections of Ward and Kent that have no sidewalks today. Um and I don't know if you've gone through this area.
I bike through it a lot, but I don't walk through it as much. Uh those streets are absolutely unsafe for folks to walk along. Um it's unsafe for me to go along with my ebike. I go the speed limit on these streets and I get passed um by very aggressive drivers.
So imagine what it would be like for a pedestrian. This trip from that corner of Cliff and Rosedale would take over 20 minutes. If we were to actually complete Cliff Street, it would act it would be only a third of a mile u along that the route that a pedestrian would have to take and it would be almost entirely on sidewalks. Uh this would take less than 10 minutes. So you can see how this impacts uh the ability for us to improve our street network. Uh one thing that I want to also point out is that if you look at the segment of streets there, uh they would essentially become a new
dead-end street. And if you take a look at the new UDO, uh, one of the things it calls out specifically is that new dead-end streets and culde-sacs are forbidden. You you can't build those anymore. But here we are.
We're locking in existing city-owned streets and turning them into dead-end streets when we could actually make some connectivity here. I also think about how this impacts uh housing affordability. We've got one single family home on a single family home lot with two empty uh large single family home lots. That could be more housing uh just a quarter mile from bus stop.
Um and maybe the applicant doesn't want to do this today, but a future land owner might. And this is the kind of gentle density we want to see. ADUs, duplexes, that kind of thing. And by sitting there and combining these, we're making it much more difficult to have that additional housing in the future. um somebody would have to go through reszoning, subdivide this, and also we'd lose that access that that street would provide. Uh so I think there's some better things that we can
we can talk about with policies around paper streets, and I think that's something you all should consider and vote this down. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right.
Item number 21. Good evening. Uing >> mayor, mayor prom, and members of council. I'm Sean Egan.
I'm the director of transportation. Uh I am excited to be here with you to share the progress that we have made on the Central Durham bus rapid transit project. You can see from this map that this project represents a critical link in our region's planned BRT bus rapid transit network. Some of the features of BRT that distinguish it from traditional local bus routes are busonly lanes, priority at traffic signals, high-quality
stations, and station access improvements. Within this fivemile corridor, the BRT will serve Durham residents and workers, connecting them to their daily needs. It connects our top activity and employment centers, the Duke Healthc Care System and VA Hospital, Duke University, downtown, our Durham station, and the eastern terminus of the Village Shopping Center, uh, where we'll have our future transit center and mobility hub. You can see here the excellent team we have working to advance the project. Our feasibility study focused on what we could accomplish quickly in this corridor while including community stakeholders and funding partners such as the Federal Transit Administration. This process helps us to understand project cost and schedule and identifies
next steps. Together with our regional and local champions, we developed the goals for the project shown here. Here you can see that we kicked off this work in January and it has been a sprint to get to the feasibility results we have for you today. Here you can see that the corridor serves our highest ridership routes, our most transit critical areas, and supports Durham's growing population, employment, and record-breaking ridership.
This slide shows the existing transit services in the study corridor. And the next slide shows the average daily ridership by route. And you can see the route three connecting to the village in East Durham uh is our single highest ridership route in the Go Durham network.
Here you can see the many partners and champions of the project. We'll continue to actively engage them as we advance the project to the next phases. Uh and you can see some of the photos here on the next slide uh of some of our stakeholder and partner work sessions where we've gathered folks uh to make sure that this project reflects uh their vision and their goals for their organizations. The Central Durham BRT aligns with many uh of the previous and ongoing planning studies and infrastructure investments both in the city and by our county partners. For example, Durham's adopted comprehensive plan policy 68 calls upon us to quote, "Plan future transit corridors near existing jobs, education, commercial, and mixed use centers to support an accessible, convenient, safe, and direct transit network. to
prioritize existing public transit and public transit riders over new modes and users. Focusing on this corridor, we conducted a feasibility study to flesh out the various segments and develop corridor alternatives that are made up of the segments that can directly serve key destinations, can allow for the fastest service by avoiding rail crossings and avoiding replication of local services while enjoying stakeholder support. As we move into the federal NEPA environmental process, we have two alternatives for consideration with changes around 9inth Street in Old West Durham as well as along Holloway and Liberty Streets in East Durham. And you can see that this project will complement many other critical city initiatives such as the rail trail project that you heard about earlier uh
in this session. Here you can see that there's great enthusiasm in the community for this work. Uh the biggest takeaway I think uh from folks out in the community as we talk about this is how soon can you get this done? Um and so that sense of urgency is something that uh we've we take to heart in this work.
Uh as we've moved uh the project forward, we've asked our partners to provide letters of support uh for the Federal Transit Administration. We've received letters from the North Carolina Department of Transportation, from the Duke University and Health System, Go Triangle, the RTA Business Alliance, Durham Housing Authority, and others. We've gotten some very positive uh responses online as well uh from our partners at Downtown Durham Incorporated
uh and gotten some uh good coverage in the Indie Axios and u on the evening news on ABC11. Here you can see our schedule to complete preliminary engineering and NEPA environmental reviews, final design and construction running through 2031. So how much will all of this cost? Our estimates put the cost around 150 million for all project elements. We'll know much more about the costs once we move into the project development and preliminary engineering phase. Our analysis shows that the project would qualify for the Federal Transit Administration's small starts grant program that could cover 40 to 50% of the total of total project costs.
uh 23. So for our next steps, we're moving forward uh across an array of items, working with our partners. Uh but the most critical item uh in front of us is to get the consultant expertise and support we need to take us through 30% design and NEPA. We've developed an aggressive schedule to complete the selection process, finalize the scope and fee, and be back before you in January to request contract approval for those services.
Thanks to our Durham County Transit Plan partners, we have $6 million available to award this contract. So, this project is a great example of partnership. Uh the support we've gotten from Durham County, from Go Triangle, the Triangle West Transportation Planning Organization has been critical
to reaching this point and securing the resources needed for our next steps. We've been moving at a break neck pace, compressing a feasibility assessment that can take years into about eight months. If you'd like us to take a more deliberate approach, we can certainly do that. Otherwise, we're going to keep working to identify every opportunity to accelerate delivery of this project so our riders, residents, workers, and visitors can enjoy these benefits as soon as possible.
Thank you. >> Thank you. And yes, if you can do so. Um, and thank you Durham County for uh the partnership.
All right, colleagues. Yeah, go ahead Chelsea. >> I just have a really quick question which is um at what point in the process
would we apply for that federal transit administrative grant project small program pro project program whatever you said a lot of words. Uh so there are a few milestones uh in the federal process. One of them is the uh entry into the project development phase. U so we're looking uh at that potentially uh in the middle of calendar 26.
So maybe about a year from now. Uh we'd be officially entering the process. Uh and >> that's the small starts process. And that would be they would potentially backdate some of the payment or would we be responsible for everything up until that point?
>> So, so uh the local sponsors responsible for everything up until that point. Uh but once we're in that process, um then we can request permission uh to recover costs after the a grant agreement. uh our schedule shows that we
wouldn't have a grant agreement until the end of 2029. Uh so during that whole time from 26 through 29, we'd be proceeding at our own risk uh with local funds with the hope that we could recover 40 to 50% of those costs uh with an executed grant agreement in 2029. Uh but uh we are proceeding at risk during that time. >> Okay.
Thank you. Thanks Sean. Obviously we've talked about this a lot. This is super exciting stuff.
So appreciate your presentation. Appreciate again Ellen and the county transit plan helping to fund this. Essentially that's what's going to fund this until we get to the small starts. Yes.
So exciting stuff I think. So I have like two things. One is um I understand these big infrastructure projects are expensive. Um when folks push back and say how can my cost 31 million per mile like what's what is our answer? Uh so the included in that are things that are
not infrastructure you'll see in the ground. Included in that for example are all the buses uh that we need to buy uh to run the service. Uh many of the improvements are u technology improvements that we're doing uh at traffic signals to give the bus advantage. Uh so um and uh much of the infrastructure that we'll be putting in um will last us for 30 40 50 years.
This kind of the station infrastructure that we're putting in. Um we'll have uh a long life cycle associated with it. Uh so uh yes, this is a this is a major investment. Uh, but I think I'd say go looking back to 2011, 14 years ago, November of 2011, the voters in Durham County approved a sales tax because they wanted to see a big investment, a signature project that shows uh that
transit is a top priority for Durm County. Uh and this project offers that opportunity to have that uh high visibility signature project uh that really meets our needs and uh is is a great investment for uh for Durham County >> and I I just heard well I know you know Raleigh's working on their newborn BRT as we've talked about and they broke that project into three parts because they had a tough time finding a contract to do the whole thing. I mean have we learned from them? Are we going to be able to sort of now that we're doing ours, are we going to sort of benefit from what they've been going through or are we going to have the same problems of sort of finding someone who can do the >> So, yeah, there definitely are advantages to not being the first one uh out of the gate like uh Raleigh has.
We've learned a lot. We've had great discussions with them. Uh we've asked them to participate, for example, in the uh the selection process for the upcoming contract. Uh but uh so we want to learn from their lessons. Uh but I think we also want to explore uh
different project delivery approaches. Uh so there's a there's a work group at uh the North Carolina Department of Transportation that's been formed uh to work on setting statewide standards uh and providing technical support uh to local governments to advance bus rapid transit projects. So, uh, I've reached out to that to that group to see, all right, well, can you help us think through how do we make sure that we take advantage of, uh, the best project delivery method for this? What kind of support can, uh, the state offer to us to help us make sure that, uh, we get things right uh, and that we keep the project moving forward.
Uh, so that's another really critical partnership for us. Most of the uh alignment here is on statemaintained roads. Uh so building and strengthening that partnership with NC DOT uh will really uh be critical to our success with this >> along along the hallway especially, right? Yeah. >> And West Main Street, Irwin Road,
they're all state roads. >> Um and do you know what the delivery date is for the Raleigh for Newburn? >> So they're saying summer of 2030. >> So we could potentially lap them.
Not that we're competitive. The schedule has us um in construction through 2031. So um we would need so no is the short the short answer is no. >> We can try right you you and >> we will be seeking every opportunity >> 2031 >> you you and Mary 2030 >> you and Mary Cal should make like an abundance sort of like bet you know like >> she owes us a bunch of she owes us like acorns or whatever and we owe her I don't know something if we beat them anyway.
Thank you. >> Sure. >> All right. Uh any other comments?
All right. Well, it's been a long day. Uh thank you, Sean. Uh we are u ready to settle the agenda.
>> Thank you, mayor and council. Appreciate your patience for a long but productive day. Uh to settle the agenda, I have on consent items 1 through 5, item 7, items
9 through 13, items 15 through 19. On GBA, we have item 8. On GBA uh public hearing, we have items 22 through 25. Uh you dispose of item six with suspending the rules and voting.
Item 14 has been referred back to staff. >> All right. Thank you, >> Mr. May.
I also just say, you know, I I know and and we're sorry we missed you on on Monday at the council meeting. We did have the conversation about contract authority, right? And so to me, these are sort of these are the kind of things we need to be talking about in these work sessions, right? And so I'm glad that we've given you more contract authority to create space to have these kind of conversations.
I think it's really important. >> We staff appreciates the trusty showdown and we're excited to put that to work. >> Thank you. I'll let obtain a motion to it's been moved.
>> So move >> and properly second it. All in favor? >> I >> I thank you all. We are journ starting at 1:00.
We are finishing at 7:24. >> That's a record. >> Oh yeah. m. this morning. 10:30
>> and we are journeying at 7:24. Go home. >> Coffee. >> Oh yeah.
Coffee chat tomorrow. 8 o' >> 8:30. >> 8:30. >> Miss Lake. Mr.