City Council · Regular Meeting · September 4, 2025

Good afternoon everyone. If you'll come to order. m. Let me greet everyone who's in chamber with us today.

To my honorable colleagues, our executive staff, um to our friends and residents watching on whatever platform you may be watching this afternoon, his honor, the mayor is in route from a previous uh commitment. So, in accordance with charter and our laws, I'll be uh conducting the meeting till his honor arrives. Good to have you all here. Madam clerk, would you please call the role?

Thank you, Mr. Mayor Prom. Mayor Williams is delayed. He will be here momentarily.

Mayor Prom Middleton, >> I'm here. >> Council member Baker here. Council member Cabayro here. >> Council member Cook here.

>> Council member Freeman >> and Council Member Wrist >> here. >> Thank you. >> In the chair's assessment, we do have quorum. I I haven't heard as colleagues, have you heard anything from council member Freeman? I'm going to um give her some time to arrive. If she doesn't arrive at some

later point in the meeting, then we'll go ahead and and issue her an excuse absence, and we send our best regards and wishes uh to her. Colleagues, at this time, I'm going to yield uh for any announcements by members of the council. I'll yield to Council Member Cook. Good afternoon.

>> Thank you. Uh good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for being here. I just want to send out um as just quick congratulations to uh attorney Aaron Miles who welcomed a new family member into their family.

So congratulations to Aaron. Um and then I'm going to have two things that I have very briefly spoken with some of you about uh in other matters to raise um at that time. Uh and I'm happy to do it to preview it now or to just do it in other matters whatever uh folks feel more comfortable with. We'll be happy to yield during other matters if that's all right with you.

Right. Council member Baker, good afternoon, sir. >> Good afternoon, colleagues. Good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you all for being here. I look forward to a productive meeting. That's it. >> Thank you, Council Member Caviier. Good afternoon.

>> Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. Uh, very quickly, I just want to highlight that we do have our um volunteer uh reception immediately following this work session. So, this is a thing that the city clerk's office hosts every year.

Usually, we do it in December. I think this is the first one we moved to September and it's a way to honor and highlight the incredible work that residents give to the city of Durham. I think we have 26 boards and commissions in the city. 28 uh boards and commissions in the city of Durham.

Uh and those are all um many of them maybe not all many of them are resident le and so these are Durham residents who have stepped up and are providing service to the city of Durham. And this is a way to um say thank you. So, thank you to the city clerk's office for organizing that and thank you for our very wonderful little schedules when it tells us what pictures and what time we need to show up. It's very helpful.

So, thank you madam city clerk and all your staff. >> Thank you, council member. Council member Freeman, good afternoon. Good to see you.

Do you have any announcements? >> Thank you. Just appreciation for the excused absence on Monday uh to tend to

a family emergency. That's all. Thank you. >> Thank you.

Pray old as well, Council Member Ris. Good afternoon. >> Good evening. Thanks, Mayor Pam.

Good afternoon, colleagues, staff, folks online. Good to see you all. Um, yes, I look forward to the the volunteer appreciation event this this afternoon. Look forward to seeing many of you there.

Um, and again, thanks to the clerk for the uh the scorecard, the like the minute-by-minute breakdown of where we should be. So, appreciate that. Also, just want to say on my bike in on the way in, I I had a chance to swing by the Museum of Derm History and I think we have an agenda item later today, Mr. Mlo here in the audience have an agenda item with the museum.

I just want to say like they've got another amazing exhibit that I just think launched a couple weeks ago, Unearthing history, the stories from Gear Cemetery. First class exhibit. It's worth seeing. Take some time to check that out.

So again, thank you so much for the first class work, small but mighty Durham Museum of History. Really appreciate that. >> Thank you, Mayor. >> Thank you, council member.

Uh colleagues, no announcements for me. I'll just associate myself with all the great comments and observations you've made. At this time, I'm going to yield to our executive staff for any priority items they may have. I'm going to yield now to our city manager.

Mr. Manager, good afternoon. >> Thank you, Mayor Prom, members of

council. Uh good to be with you this afternoon. The city manager's office has no priority items. However, I would uh like to request uh a few moments to speak uh during other matters.

I'd like to update the council on some just a schedule of upcoming presentations that I've previewed for the council and so with your permission uh at the end of the meeting, I'll uh report out on those. >> Thank you so much. I'll yield now to our city attorney. Good afternoon, councelor.

>> Good afternoon, Mayor Pertim, members of the council. It's good to see you. The city attorney's office does not have any priority items. However, I would love to take a point of personal privilege to make a brief introduction if I might.

Um, we have a new addition to our team, Brendan Neil, who is an associate city attorney. Several of you have already sent her warm welcome by email. I thank you for that. But wanted uh her to be able to see the council, you to see her, and she's going to be doing some great work for us for uh the finance department in procurement. She's also going to be working on technology solutions, which as you know is

undergoing a C change of update and modernization. Um, we're really excited to have Brenda. She is a proud UNCC law grad 2024 I believe and comes to us from a fellowship, fresh from a fellowship at Cornell University as a contract um person doing that legal work for the university. So, we're really excited to have Brenda [Applause] Kier here on behalf of the city.

Welcome to the team. Glad you're with us. Thank you. >> Growing city attorney's office, huh?

New staff, new babies. Great stuff. >> Yes, sir. >> Lot lot going on in that shop, right?

>> Madam clerk, good afternoon. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor Prom. I'd like to give the board and commit committee report.

Um, the mayor's Hispanic Latino committee appointments. The following five individuals have been nominated. Haydai N andino Jose D Cordova James T Ham Susana Marciel Armas and Marinella M

Marso MCO and there's another um board that we are um staffing at the at the moment it's the Durham Housing Board of Commissioners and the first individual who's been nominated is a previous homeless individual and her name is Angela R. Holmes. The second nomination is um is problematic. We have received some correspondence from a a public um public group and they have indicated that the individual who has applied for the position may not be um a resident of the city of Durham.

And I have forwarded the information to the city attorney's office. And um to make you aware, the city clerk's office does do um checks on delinquent taxes with the tax administration. We also search the Durham GIS to determine if the um applicants parcel or address

is within the city, the city corporate limits. And um we did determine that there was no delinquent tax and that the parcel was in fact within the corporate limits. Um according to the email received uh it was determined that the individual is not a resident of the city of Durham and I did want to ask some direction from the council on this. >> Let let me according to the email >> there's an email sent with um >> it's an allegation.

It's an allegation, but there was documentation attached to the email. >> Have we? But our own vetting our own vetting and due diligence has yielded what? >> Um, we determined there were no delinquent taxes in accordance with the address that was provided and um the GS parcel is within the city of Durham.

Apparently, the parcel belongs to the applicant's husband and that is a um a commercial address. >> All right. I'm I I want to be careful how much >> public airing because it's it's an

allegate. Why don't we put it on GBA? >> That one and we'll move on the other one. >> Okay.

>> I would be concerned if you put it on GBA because you've already made these allegations um about a candidate, an applicant. >> Appreciate it. I I don't know what other recourse we have because between now and the meeting, if we can do further due diligence, if we need to pull it all together, that that's uh but for the purposes of now, that's how we'll dispose. We'll put it on GBA and and deal with the other one.

Council member. >> Um, Madame Attorney, do you do you need any further guidance from us or any anything else from us to >> I have not even had an opportunity to review the communications that the clerk sent to me. So, I'd like to review that before I can Okay. >> Weigh in from where we are.

>> Just want to make sure that that was clear that we >> we would love that. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Okay.

Thank you. It'll be put on GPA. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> Oh, Council Member, I'm sorry. >> Thank you. And then in the future if there are problems with applicants, can we just say resolve that and and to the mayor prom's point, we need to be careful with how we um speak about these

matters. Um so in in future this sometimes happens. Can we just say that there was not a determination made and it needs to be put on GBA and leave it at that. Thank you.

>> I appreciate the colleagues. Madam clerk, you can proceed. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Mayor Prom. Um, that is the the last nomination I have. I did want to remind you that the photo schedule is at each of your places for the volunteer appreciation reception tonight and we're looking forward to seeing you all. Thank you.

>> Thank you so much, Council Member. >> Uh, Madam Clerk, also I know that on the agenda with the um updated boards, committees, commissions, task force, annual attendance reports, are those just updated? Is that the >> Want to know what the what? Yeah.

All of the the boards and committee attendance reports have been reviewed and updated if there were any um discrepancies in the in the percentage of meetings attended. >> Appreciate that. >> There had been a problem with the formula.

>> Thank you. >> Thank you colleagues. My thanks to the uh executive staff. At this time now we'll I'll read to turn to reading our administrative consent items in our agenda uh for the day.

Of course, it's the prerogative of council members or members of the public to pull an item. Minister of consent items starting with the city clerk's office. Item one, during housing authority board of commissioners appointment. Item two, mayor's Hispanic Latino committee appointments.

Item three, boards, committees, commissions, and task forces task forces fiscal year 2024 through 2025 annual attendance reports under departmental items from budget and management services department. Item four, contract agreement with the Museum of Durham history to provide funding to support museum operations. Like to pull that? You like to pull it?

Item four is pulled. Continuing on the city, county emergency management department. Item five, 2025 ENOR regional hazard mitigation plan update. >> Pull that one. >> Item five is pulled. Was that Council

Book Cook? >> All right. from the city manager's office. Item number six, contract for grant assistance with Central Pines Regional Council under General Service Department.

Item seven, 2024 bond referendum project East End and Long Meadow Parks, Long Meadow Parks Construction Manager at Risk Contract with Balffor Batty Construction, Halt Brothers Construction, a joint venture. >> I pulled that one as well. >> Item number seven is pulled. Item number eight, 12th amendment to the assignment agreement for the DAP operating agreement.

Item number nine, 2024 bond referendum project east end and Long Meadow Parks design contract with surface 678PA. Item number 10, environmental and street services south renovation professional services second amendment with CPL architects and engineers PC. Item number 11, WD Hill combined enhancements design contract with RVE Inc.

uh under our office of economic and workforce development. Item number 12 contract for durm workforce development board workforce innovation and opportunity act adult and dislocated worker programs with eard youth alternative inc business as eard connects. Item 13 contract for workforce innovation and opportunity act for NC works career center operation between the city of Durham and Eard Youth Alternatives Inc. doing business as Eard connects.

>> Pull that one. Item number 13 is pulled from our parks and recreation department. Item number 14, use and possession agreement for the community and family life and recreation center at Lion Park. Planning and development department.

Item 15, utility extension agreement with Welcome Venture Park LLC to serve Welcome Venture Park. Phase 3 from our technology solutions department. Item 16, contract renewal with Aztec Systems LLC for CityWorks software license and maintenance. Item number 17, contract for audit of city's

primary telecommunications service accounts under our transportation department. Item 18, first amendment to supplemental agreement number four to master agreement number 18919 with Stantech Consulting Services, Inc. for design of Horton Road multi-use path and sidewalk gaps tip-3. Just want to say great stuff.

Really important work. Yeah, >> thank item number 19 FY2025 through 26 transit capital improvement plan CIP budget ordinance amendment. >> Also, Mayor Tim, just on that one, I just I don't want to pull up, but just say thanks to the county. This is important funding from the county transit plan to support buses and bus rapid transit.

So glad to see that. Thanks again to the county. >> Also adding thanks to the go triangle um board as well. >> Absolutely.

on our order management department. Item number 20, award of contract ext contract extension for routine generator maintenance and emergency repair services from National Power LLC. Uh this afternoon presentations uh from our finance

department uh item number 21 fiscal year 2024 through 25th quarter financial report. This this uh presentation is slated to go 15 minutes. And from our water management department, item number 22, Western intake partnership project update. m.

I have one uh pre-registered citizen uh Dwaren Langley uh of the Charles Hamilton Houston Foundation. That ends the reading of our published uh agenda uh for the day. Um I have items pulled item number four, five, 7, and 13. Mr.

Manager, do you concur? Right, colleagues, we'll go we'll handle these in order then. We'll go up to item number four. I believe council member Baker, you pulled that.

>> I'm sorry. You're right. Citizens comments. Uh is Mr.

Langley. Thank you, colleagues. Mr. Langley, um >> Mr. Langley, can you hear me?

>> Yes. Can you hear me? >> Yeah. Good afternoon, man.

Thank you for being with us. You have three minutes. >> Good afternoon, Mr. Mayor, Mr.

Mayor Pro Tim, members of the city council. I'm Dewan Langley. I serve as the volunteer executive director of the Charles Hamilton Houston Foundation, which is an impactful impact driven nonprofit organization committed to advancing equity and opportunity for boys and young men of color through competency based learning, strategy centered mentorship, and career focused skill development. Our mission is to dismantle system systemic barriers and expand pathways to academic achievement, careers, economic mobility, and leadership.

At the foundation, we believe that when we invest in the skill development, coaching, and career exploration of boys and young men of color, we do not just shape futures, we transform lives. The career pathway program was created with this vision in mind to prepare young men with the tools, guidance, and opportunities they need to thrive academically, professionally, and civically. Consider

the journey of one young man we recently supported who connected with me in February of 2025 after my public advocacy before the Durham City Council for greater investment in youth development and career aspiration. Inspired, he reached out. But like many recent college graduates, he was struggling to secure meaningful employment. Through the career pathway program, we walked alongside him step by step.

Together, we revised his resume, clarified his career goals, strengthened his interviewing skills, and applied for relevant opportunities. His growth extended beyond employment readiness. Knowing his interest in land use and policy, I encouraged him to apply for the Durham Planning Academy. He was accepted.

From there, his civic engagement deepened. He was appointed as an atlarge member of the city county appearance commission by the Durham Board of County Commissioners. This was not only a professional milestone, but also a powerful affirmation that young

men of color belong in spaces where decisions are made and futures are shaped. Ultimately, he secured a full-time entry level technology role in Research Triangle Park, earning $52,000 a year. With steady employment, civic leadership, and a clear career trajectory, he is now on a path of economic stability and mobility. That is what transformation looks like.

The impact of Career pathway program is clear. When boys and young men of color have access to coaching, mentoring, and professional development, they can move from uncertainty to purpose. From undermployment to thriving careers, from the margins to meaningful civic leadership. Our charge is urgent.

Without intentional investment, too many young men are left vulnerable to undesirable influences. But when we choose to invest, we unlock potential, strengthen communities, and create lasting change. The Charles H Houston Foundation stand as a bridge connecting young men of color to skills,

opportunities, and networks that will sustain them for a lifetime. And as we've seen, this investment does not just transform one life. It strengthens families, enriches communities, and builds a more just and prosperous future for us all. We invite the city to join us through investment and partnership.

>> Mr. Langley, thank you so much. We appreciate the work you continue to do in our community. Madam clerk, that is the only person I had read about.

All right. All right. We'll now go to the pulled items for real. Uh this time I think council uh council member Baker, you pulled item number four.

I'll yield to you. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Um I just uh for my own edification, uh there is a little bit of information in the packet about the um location. It's been a matter of conversation over the past several years of of the museum. Um I think currently as it stands the current location is

seen as the permanent location, but I I just wanted to see if there was any update in terms of the conversation around location um especially as we uh as we consider adoption um at some point of the downtown master plan and some of the opportunities that might be opened up there. Is there still a desire for a new location or open-mindedness for that or do you think that the current location is is going to be the permanent location? >> Uh Christina Rearden, budget and management services and I'm um looking to our city manager. Uh we do have the Museum of Durham history here as well.

So I'm not sure if your question is for city or for um you know the nonprofit itself. So I can >> I think the nonprofit would be good to answer. So, I will have I'll have um our their uh director come up and speak. >> Thank you.

>> Good afternoon. Um great questions. Thank you very much. Um I would say to answer your question, we love where we are being at 500 West Main Street. Um

Council Member Cabierro has been part of a working group the past couple of years to identify and do the due diligence to determine the permanent home for the museum. Um we are working towards making a recommendation to the city council um that a memo to be submitted soon um via mayor prom and council member Caballero that uh we would uh the recommendation would be to stay where we currently are. >> Great. Thank you.

That's all that I had. I was curious. Appreciate it. >> Thank you colleagues.

Anyone else since director Mucklo good good to see you kind of uh telegraphed it with with that request maybe um uh a request full disclosure for just a little bit more money to just under 50 grand um I think maybe coming down the pike um for us want to put that out there we'll we'll deliberate it but um since you you telegraphed it I want to go ahead and put that out there. Thank you colleagues. Anyone else on this item? All right we'll move on to item number five. Council member Cook, I believe you

pulled that. I'll yield to you. >> Good. >> Hi.

Um, this is I don't have any very specific questions, but I just think that this is something that's coming up a lot for residents. And so I was hoping that you could just give us on the record a a brief overview of the work that you've done with the surrounding uh municipalities and and sort of what this plan means for Durham and and sustainability. >> Yes. Um Nate Sanders, deputy chief for emergency management.

The ENO Hall plan is a regional um hazard mitigation plan which involved multiple counties. Um it's sponsored by the state and it's pretty it's covered by the state. WSP was the vendor that the state acquired to do the plan. It included Person, um, Orange, Durham, Alamance.

Am I missing one? >> Yeah, you did. >> And, um, and basically what it does is it identifies the threats and the

hazards specific to each county in each area, including the municipalities within Durham. And for us, that's the city of Durham. Um, we identified or through working with the same stakeholders that were involved within the last Eno Hall mitigation plan, I identified the specific threats and hazards to Durham. Um, and implemented mitigation plans and processes moving forward to try to to address those concerns that were found in the plan.

Um, flooding was a major concern for this one and we included some wildfire concerns for this one. Um while working with the relative departments that were involved with this, they identified, you know, the specific threats areas and the the mitigation projects moving forward to help with these um I believe one is building resiliency for city and county facilities, making them more resilient to all hazards um type events and things like that. um adopting the plan. What it does is it it allows the city and the county to to qualify for any available funding that may be available for this any any state federal grant or anything

like that. Um if the once the plan's adopted then we we're eligible for that funding. Um without adopting the plan then we would potentially not be eligible for any funding for any of these mitigation projects. >> Thank you so much.

That was a great summary. I appreciate it. Those are all my questions. >> I had a question there.

Yeah, I appreciate it. Um, that's being pulled. Yeah. 11 on page 396.

Um, some of them would come from grant funds, some of them would come from the county uh storm water utility fee um stream restoration project. So, I'm I'm curious if if these are kind of open-ended, if if it's sort of a goal or if we already have some specific projects uh in mind. >> Um, so some of the specific projects are going to be up to the individual departments and areas that would apply for that grant funding. Some of those are still open-ended. Um, I know we we're working um to try to increase our

flood awareness. We're looking at new gauges specifically for the ENO um and try to revamp that process. So, there is some some specific funding in mind. We haven't obtained that funding yet.

Um, but some of these are still open-ended. Um, >> okay. >> If that answers your question. >> Yeah.

Great. Thank you, >> colleagues. Anyone else on this item? >> All right.

Thank you'all. Good to see you. >> Thank you. >> We'll move on.

Council member Click, you're still up. Uh, item number seven. Um, I'm going to ask some some maybe basic questions, but I've read the materials here and I um don't really maybe understand what a CM service is. Um, and I'm just kind of curious about what we're looking at with this item.

Some of these things are very vague. the the like we're assessing and yeah, some of these words are very vague and they also seem like things that we maybe had already done as part of the bond process. So, I was just wondering if you could speak to what more specificity

we're getting and and sort of what construction manager at risk services are. >> Thank you. Uh Chris, project manager for general services. So, construction manager at risk is essentially uh they're a partner with us during the design phase.

we can utilize their resources, their expertise to help us minimize our design risk as far as um what what cost implications may come with certain aspects, constructibility reviews, um engaging our trade uh subcontractors to get them excited and in participating in this project. Um and um just a general um involvement in management and organization of that design process. uh up to start construction. >> Is it is this normally something that we contract out when we're doing these design phases and projects that are of this size? What is >> Yes. So at this at this size it is recommended that we utilize a semar

early on the project again to minimize your risk for change orders and and things of that nature. uh that maybe the design team and and the project management team can't see early on, but the Seymar with their expertise and their tools and knowledge, they can help see those risks early on to to make sure the design is good and clean. Um so that when we go into construction, we don't have some unforeseen conditions or things that we could have mitigated earlier on by having their expertise at the table. >> Gotcha.

Um, and how did we find this particular company? >> So, we we put on an RFQ. We had four firms uh submit for that uh RFQ and the team narrowed it down to two teams um were were selected and invited in to do an in-person interview. Um and then the selection committee um selected Alfred Batty Holt as the highest ranked and most qualified for this project.

>> Have we worked with them in the past or have they worked on other maybe largescale projects in North Carolina in this area? >> They have. Um they're very well-known company in this area. Um as far as the city of Durham, I'm not sure if I can speak to our experience.

I may ask Jean uh to come up and speak to how much. >> Um good afternoon. Gina Propes, deputy city manager. Construction manager at risk is one of three types of delivery methods in North Carolina.

You've got design bid build. You have um design build and construction manager at risk to kind of level set. That's a procurement process that we use. It is perfect and so appropriate for projects of this size.

there's a lot of risk. Um having a construction manager at risk in the pre-construction phase aids in the delivery method. Um the conflict avoidance, constructability, logistics. So it is um it's a great procurement and delivery method. Um this firm has worked on several projects with us in the past.

Holt Brothers is part of this as a joint venture. They've not worked on some of our projects, but the other the other team has. So um they scored well. We had actually really good firms and typically we find that in Seymour processes and this this firm ran to um excuse me rose to the top.

>> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Those are all my questions >> council member. >> Yeah.

Thank you for Yeah. Um thank you so much and appreciate the comments or the questions from my colleagues. I just want to say I'm excited. We passed the bond last fall.

This is a big part of the parks um bond that we passed and so I'm glad we're moving forward. Thank you so much. Council member Baker, >> you have a very hard job. This is a very complex uh project. Um how do we balance the remediation waiting on NCDQ looking for state money with moving forward with the bond money that has that that is being used uh from

the residents of Durham? H how do we balance that? What are you concerned about? Uh what are you hopeful for in how we move forward?

>> If if I may, I'd like to uh ask my colleague Wade Walcott to come up and help speak to that. >> Hello, Wade Walcott, Parks Recreation. Uh so the process we're looking at right now that is outlined in your agenda item is to take a look first at I believe at the Long Meadow Park area. So we don't have any issues right there related to the pre-regulatory landfill program. So that allows us to start the design and thinking about the construction now and not have to wait while the state continues to do their analysis at all the sites but including East End Park. Um we had mentioned uh before that we anticipate the final results being available to us by the end of this calendar year uh for additional data which consists of above and below ground

um water and air vapor analysis that's going on right now. So that's why the team has has laid it out in this phased approach so that we can start doing the work now planning the work and then move forward and by that time we're hopeful that have we'll have more data and then at that point staff will come provide their recommendation on how to move forward along with input from the community and their thoughts and opinions and recommendations as well. >> Thank you so much. Um, are are we confident in the timeline of the end of 2025?

And I asked that because wasn't wasn't there some testing that we were supposed to receive by this summer and is that the same testing that we're hoping to receive by the end of the calendar year now or is this additional testing? >> I can't recall exactly which which testing. Um, I'll answer your first question. Um, confidence level, I can't control that part with the state. Yeah. >> Um I think what you might be referring

to is related to the above and below ground testing. They may have some samples in already with again I am not the expert. I just play one. Um I believe with this kind of analysis of above and below ground water and vapor, what they're trying to do is collect a longer period of samples so that if they take a few samples April, May, they don't want to release those and say this is what we have.

And I think it's helpful for them to say April, May, June, July, August, September, and show that there may be fluctuations with the data throughout the year. And so I think that's why they're waiting for for a December time frame to give them a broader uh spectrum of analysis. >> Um thank you. This is this is a tough tough project, tough work.

So I really appreciate the work that's going into it. Um I also appreciate the wanted to just say I appreciate the um all the background that was included in the staff report. So whoever wrote the staff

report, great job. um really appreciate that and good good luck and we'll we'll be we'll be here um available, you know, if if you need stuff from us. Obviously, we want this to be a success and a lot of people are are watching this project move forward. Thank you.

>> Thank you. >> And I would just like >> Thank you, Council Member Council Member Freeman and Council Member Wrist. >> I would just like to add um um two things specifically. Is there any conversation in this design process about how you do some storytelling his about the history of this area?

>> Yes, that absolutely can be part of we have a uh one of the elements that we're adding is a storytelling terrace for the fire pit. That's one of the new park elements that we're actually adding um to this site. So, absolutely. Okay.

And then um just around the mitigation, is there any update from the parks and wreck around uh what the plan is and how that's going to move forward? >> Sure. No more than what I was just sharing as far as uh receiving more data

from the state by the end of this calendar year. When that is completed, that is the last uh scheduled testing and analysis the state has to do. And then at that point we'll have uh comprehensive data and all the information that they will test for >> and that'll be all the parks not just this. >> Correct.

>> Yes. Yeah. Okay. >> Thank you.

>> Thanks May. Um Mr. Walcut can you also remind us I know back going to the to the the bond sort of issue and the sort of like the public education there. I know there was um communication from parks wreck about how things might move around where where pools might be tennis courts to address some of the lead that we know is there.

So can you remind us again how how the design of where things might be is being influenced by sort of what we know about lead so far? >> I'll try. So that is another reason why we're looking at this phased approach and starting where we are. So um as our teams and when these contracts are are

able to be finalized and move forward, we'll have a great design team. We'll have a great Semar team and we'll be able to start at that other end. What we are also contemplating and talking about with the state and and everyone is depending on what solution that we collectively come up with, there may be some uh advantages at East End with the amenities that our residents said they want that may also serve in a way to cap or provide a barrier between anything that uh could be deemed risky below the surface. So, for example, uh we know it's clear that uh we need more courts spaces, whether that's tennis, basketball, pickle ball, what have you. We know there's interest in the community for additional skate spots, dots, and parks. And so, with all that uh kind of information or I'm sorry, all those kinds of amenities that we've heard previously, those may also serve the purpose of providing that barrier between uh people and risk.

Thank you. And I appreciate you also becoming studying up on the lead piece. I know this wasn't your what your your uh your background, but I appreciate you becoming the the most the foremost expert in Durham on lead. It sounds like >> that's not Let's redact that from the minutes.

>> Thank you. >> Thank you, council member. Mr. Manager, >> I just wanted to add on to and and commend our staff in parks and recreation specifically under Wade's leadership.

um you know a as they have uh as they have worked to you know very closely with DEEQ to uh restore these parks to the public use and good. Uh I've been really impressed with their uh dedication and intentionality about not just restoring the parks but really thinking about how this might present opportunities to really enhance and improve the parks. And I think, you know, obviously restoring the parks is job one and one that they take very seriously, but but appreciate the thoughtfulness uh around how we might reimagine some of these spaces to be better than they were uh when when the

lead was discovered and and uh we started this work. Uh and I think this project in particular is a space where that philosophy is playing out. So, I just wanted to commend them uh publicly for it and uh I'm really excited uh as as those options come forward uh and as we hear from the public, people are really anxious to get these parks back online. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Mr. Manager. Thank you, colleagues. Gentlemen, thank you.

Good to see you. >> All right, I'll yield to Council Member Rich. Item number 13. I believe you pulled that.

>> Thank you. Welcome. Yeah, thank you for coming. Um, I just had a question about number 13. So, I I I know that 12 and 13 were both contracts with EERD um under the Workforce Investment and Opportunity Act. Um, the contract I saw from for the number 12 had nice performance metrics

in there. For number 13, there were no performance metrics in that statement of work. And I just want to ask I know I've asked a lot of questions about performance metrics. This this is critical work as as as you all know and so I want to make sure that we are clear about what our contractors are doing and have a way to assess their performance.

So I just want to ask I don't know if that was an oversight or just want to ask about that and make sure those performance metrics are included in the in the final contract. >> Yes. [Music] >> Russell with office of economic workforce development. I will ensure that that information is in there.

um they are measured through um enrollment through wagon piser. So when an individual actually comes into the career center, they are actually um get an account and they enrolled through the NC works the NC works online system. Once they're enrolled in that system um we then um try to get them to have a service. When we perform a service then those services count as the performance for the actual career center. And it's a little different from the previous contract where it has the different

metrics of the second quarter athletex um the median earnings. So those are particular um metrics but with these particular metrics it's more so the enrollment the services that they are actually getting once they actually enter the career center along with maybe it may be resume building it may be um um guidance and counseling something of that nature but it is based on those. So just so I understand, so on the on the the first contract number 12, that's sort of adults under the we owe a uh funding from the feds. And so those metrics come from the that's sort of federally mandated in terms of like jobs and wages, right?

>> Yes. >> So is that way so it's different under the the contract for youth services? Is that what is that what you're saying? >> So adult dislocated working youth, there are WA federally funded programs.

With the career center, the career center is a program that we got the funding from from the adult dislocated worker. So, it wasn't technically funding from the federal government. Um, with the state of North Carolina, they have once they

reauthorized um the program, the Department of Commerce stated that they wanted to not operate the career centers throughout the state of North Carolina. So, some of the career centers are operated by DWS and some of them are contracted out through different agencies. um with the city of Durm that's exactly or the Durham workforce development board it was contracted out once the um state stated that they did not want to run the actual career center. So it wasn't that's then we had to figure out a way to actually find the funding to actually have a actual manager for the career center to operate the different partners there.

So that's is different but it's is it's WA funding but the metrics and stuff are a little different >> for the for the career center. >> Yes sir. >> Yeah. And again, so like what's what are the key metrics then in terms of like as you think about performance for the career center?

Is it mostly like numbers of people served? Is it sort of like what's the how how do you how do you how do you all assess that? >> And I will yield to Michelanda Chisum. She is the actual manager that works

with Eert and she can give you a little bit more information on that. >> Okay, that'd be great. Good afternoon everyone. Yolanda Chisum with Ech Connect.

So yes, we do manage the career center and all of the partners who come through the who operate out of the career center and provide services to all of the job seekers within the city of Durham as well as employers who operate out of the city of Durham. Um from last year we had almost 1,600 distinct individuals who came through our doors to receive services. Examples of services is getting assistance with creating your resume, um doing online job searches, applying for jobs, interviewing skills, um some of those soft skills development that they need that employers said that some of our um job seekers are are lacking. So those are examples of some of the services that we provide. Um in addition to that, when we're working with employers, we help them to post jobs online so job seekers can apply for those positions. Um, as well as if they

need any kind of insist, excuse me, assistance with labor market information. Oftentimes, you know, we have conversations with them. If they're coming in and telling us that they need to hire someone and the the wages are still $10 an hour, we kind of let them know, hey, there's a lot of competition out there that's not sustainable wages for um our citizens, especially in this area. So just giving them some realistic information that they can go back to the table to to try to, you know, see if they can increase the wages so all of our residents can can earn sustainable wages.

>> I appreciate that, Miss Chis. That's really helpful. Yeah. So again, if if you all could add at OWD some of those performance metrics into that scope of work, that'd be really helpful.

>> Yeah. >> Much appreciated. Thank you. >> Thank you, council colleagues.

Anyone else want to sign him? Right. Thank you both. Good to see you.

Appreciate the work you do. We'll go turn now to our presentations. our first presentation which is slated to 15 minutes uh from our finance department fiscal year 2024 through 25 fourth quarter financial report. We do have a speaker on it but we'll receive a presentation first. We'll then uh entertain our speaker and

then we'll turn to the council. >> Good afternoon Tim Flora Finance Department. So before we get started, I would like to uh say uh this is a collaborative process between the finance department and the budget department. And so uh I am so uh appreciative of the fact that I have my co-pilot here uh Christina Rearen, budget uh and management services director um to help uh answer any questions that we might have.

as well. Uh I have my navigator since I'm using the airplane theme I guess with me. Uh Julia Bredamon who is my senior analyst uh who did a lot of work on getting the presentation together. And so uh while we are calling up that presentation, I will also say this is the Q4 report.

So this is as of June 30th, 2025. I will also say these numbers and this information is unodudited. We are currently in the

process of going through our audit. The audit is going well, but uh there still are invoices trickling in and invoices coming in and some revenue trickling in. So um and we still have lots of acrruels to make. So that information will be uh uh provided and uh we are looking forward to having our audit done by a August October 31 uh and uh it everything is going well with that.

So to get started uh just uh as I said the Q4 report is it is online. So we would encourage uh you and the residents uh to go online and check out that uh financial report. Uh what I'm providing to you today is just sort of a very general highle overview of some of the financial numbers but the financial report the quarterly report has a lot of other information uh in there. So we encourage you to uh you and our residents to look at that information. Um not only does it include the budget to actual information, but it also provides a debt and investment update. Uh there's lots of information in in

there on some of our contracting, some of our claims, uh a CIP stoplight report as well as some additional information that we're putting in there for general services uh to meet um sort of uh requirements, resolution requirements for real estate division report and then also just a very brief update on the American Rescue Plan where we're at on that. And so um certainly encourage you to to look at that information. So, jumping right into the general fund, uh we have uh uh a little bit to talk about today. 8 million less than budget.

So, that's good. We always like to to come in under budget. We always have to come into under budget by um general statute requirements. So, that is good.

4 million less than budget. We're going to talk about that here in a few minutes. 4 $4 million which uh uh and so that is that is good having that variance but uh ultimately that variance is not as big as the amount of money that we have used

uh reserves to um pay for that. 5 million worth of our fund balance reserves and so we'll talk about that here in just a few minutes. Uh but uh big overview general overview of our projected uh expenditures. So you'll see uh 305 uh 304 almost $35 million uh is what we um um spent in total expenditures uh or expecting to for the general fund.

Uh 77% of that is for personnel services. So the majority of our uh general fund budget does go to pay the salaries and benefits of the employees that are uh doing the work. Um 18% is for operating expenditures. Um and then uh just a a small amount goes in for capital A and then the others are transfers for other funds for um and so this is just sort of uh a summary um u by department of the expenditures and you'll see what we like to see there on the the the far right hand side is the fact that all the

departments with the exception of a very small uh over budget um in in departments. So, we're right where we need to be. We were anticipating that small overage in the communications budget. So, there's absolutely no concerns there.

Um, and uh, as you're all aware, we we do budget by the fund. So, u, we can go over in a department. Uh, it's just we're looking at um, by the way you adopt the budget is is where we have to be compliant as far as um, being under budget. Uh for year-end revenues, as I mentioned, um they were uh less than budgeted, but we received about $295 million uh in uh total revenue, uh 52% of that was for property taxes, which is absolutely what we expect, 35% sales tax.

So, those are two big uh revenue streams, and then um this the 7% intergovernmental, that's uh the money that comes from uh the county for the services that um we provide for them. Um and then 4% charges for service. If we

go to the next slide, you can see sort of a breakdown um where um where we're at on that. Um no surprises. 8 million to be under budget. We'll talk a little bit about that here in just a second.

Um but, uh no surprises. Next slide. Um um but what we have here, this is the slide that I really kind of want to show and to illustrate where um where we're at. Um this is reflects the the last several years of our expenditures and our revenues.

And so if you can see uh the last uh couple of years or last year and this year we are uh spending more than we are bringing in. And so when that happens clearly we have to we have to uh tap in to our reserves which have been strong. We have strong reserves and and that is you know that is anticipated that is is how we work it. Um, but you'll also notice that the three years prior to that, we we had more revenues than expenses. And so that is where we were building up those reserves. And so

we're almost to the point now where um we have eaten up all the reserves that we've accumulated over the last few years. And and as you all know, we have we operate by ratios um as to what kind of reserves we should keep. And so as every year our our expenditure budgets increase, that percentage number uh while it stays the same, that means our reserves need to um sort of increase proportionally to to maintain the reserves we have. And so we're keeping a very close eye on where those uh where that fund balance and those reserves are are landing.

And so this is just I I I don't want to use this as a a uh but this is a maybe it could be the canary in the coal mine where we just need to be aware moving forward that you know um we we have used those reserves. Um we are still in very good shape but we just need to be I think careful as we move forward as to um how we are looking at um spending our money. Tim, if you'll suspend for just a moment, just want to alert folk that are watching that we're having a couple of technical issues with our camera. Um, Council Member Cook, I

hope you're getting your good side because it's because it's it's locked on you. So, you're getting a lot of air time today. So, >> I know. And I am like >> YouTube is going to more.

>> Okay. >> Oh, it is. Okay, great. >> It's a great shot, by the way.

But, >> thank you. Yeah, I sound very knowledgeable, so I'm you know, it's fine by me. >> Go ahead, Tim. I'm sorry.

Thank you. Uh, and so for the for the revenues, I I just pulled out, uh, you know, sort of the the the big, uh, the big numbers. 8 million under budget, and I've got a slide for that here in just a second. 4 million.

I think we've had that discussion before that those that revenue stream is slowly drying up. And so, um, we're not surprised by those numbers. Um, good news, PAL bill. Um, we were up $845,000 over budget.

Property taxes are coming in strong. Our collection rates are are strong. And so, so that is that is always good. And our charges for services um certainly have come in over budget as well. And so this is just a quick overview of our property taxes sort of just collection by year.

And you'll see um you know uh the bottom there, the increase the four 5% and and there's a big increase uh last year. That is just indicative of the fact that there was a tax rate uh change. And so that is why you see significant increases in the um property taxes going into sales taxes. So sales taxes are have been interesting.

And so if you've seen the prior year, we were two $2 million over budget. 9 million under budget. I will say part of that is the the numbers look wonky, but I will also say that there have been issues with the department of revenue and how we have been getting refunds towards the end of the fiscal year. And so last year um the the the nonprofit refunds um we got a negative refund. I suspect the way ultimately it played out the last year we probably would have hit right on budget which would have then helped this year's budget because the $2 million should have been accounted for this year. Um but it is a very wonky thing that has happened for the last couple of years

and the department of revenue uh um the budget department has uh very much been on top of all of this. It's just we have no control over that. there there really is not a whole lot of transparency into the department of revenues and some of their things but but know that we are we are on it and and so with that final month we still have one more month of uh sales tax to come in and so um why I'm also sort of careful as to what what our final financial position is is the fact that we're just not quite sure what that final month is going to look like because if we were to go to trends uh we would think it would be one thing um and the information that we have uh on refunds but it just doesn't seem to play out that way because uh of things that are going on with the Department of Revenue. So, um so I just want to be aware of that that it it it's not really from my standpoint, it's not really a budgeting issue.

It really is a remittance issue with the Department of Revenue. So, pivoting on to our enterprise funds, water and sewer funds. So, total operating revenues came in above. >> Do you want us to hold questions till the very end or do you or

>> I'm open if if you have a question, I'm more than happy to hold. It's up to you. Yeah. Okay.

>> So, uh, for water and sewer, our total operating revenues came in above budget by $256,000. Um, um, but operate operate operating revenues falling short by um um $559,000. So, a net revenue shortage of $33,000. Um, again, I I call this sort of precision budgeting.

There's never usually very many issues that we have with our our water fund. If you want to go to the next slide. And so, um, what what I will point out from the revenue standpoint is if you look at the non-operating revenues, there was a million dollars of, uh, inspection line loan. And so, that was a for a forgivable loan, uh, that we have gone after.

Um, we have just started doing the work on getting, uh, using those loan proceeds to expense. So, so it's not that uh, we just haven't got the loan this year. We we fully expect to get that that money uh, next year. And so, um, not that we're not going to get

it. And then the other is an investment income. Sometimes the market um plays tricks on us and so what we were projecting it to be it came under what we anticipated. Um so we were short there.

But from the extender standpoint um we're slightly under budget. So so there is a negative overall budget variance but again um no surprises there. It's a strong fund, lots of reserves and fund balance and so no issues or concerns there. uh the transit fund.

So expenditures are projected under budget by $635,000 due to various savings and operating expenditures. 6 million. Um more than happy to address any questions there. 2 million with only tax revenue exceeding its budget by $124,000. 75 cents of uh the tax rate which is

1 million. if we want to go to those numbers that sort of gives you an overview. Um and again the intergovern intergovernmental revenue that's where really where we're we're sort of short and that's just I think because um expansion of services that we would normally receive um uh reimbursement from the county on and since those um services didn't happen um we we didn't get those revenues. 3 million or $33 million is where we're at and so we're um just shy under budget there. 3 million. 2% of um the budget expenditures actuals

were $454 um 481 over budget driven mainly by higher personnel cost. If we want to look at there um this is this is the um the the revenue uh numbers you'll see uh um they're illustrated there. Yeah, we're Yeah, there we go. Thank you.

6 there. And so, um, again, a lot of the revenue funds were sort of I I will say, uh, Q4 was not as as good as we would have liked to have seen it. Uh and so um but again there's not any any not any major concerns but it could be of indicative of uh circumstances forthcoming. So um there there is just an awareness that that we we probably need to um keep storm water fund. So uh

this one is doing uh adding is doing well. The storm water fund is self-sufficient fund um and receives no tax support. So I always like to point that out. 9 million over budget.

Um so that those revenues are coming in strong. 1 million. And so um even though even though with the large you can go on with the budget variance um a lot of that um um negative net revenue uh the $455,000 a lot of that is because we use reserves in that fund to pay for capital projects and so that is absolutely what we expect to do. 6 6 million. 5 million. So,

revenues continue to be insufficient to cover the expenses. Um, with the debt service fund subsidizing the existing debt portion of the fund, I think we've had this conversation number of times before and we're it's still sort of the same situation and we're in there. Um, again, no surprises where we have uh where we anticipate uh landing. Ultimately what ultimately what ends up happening is um we're in a situation where we have a negative fund balance for them and and we just treat it as a as it's an enterprise fund.

We just treat it as a um sort of a loan from another enterprise fund. And so there's certainly um lots of funds there as we try to figure out how to move forward with parking. Uh enterprise funds, the ballpark fund, DPAC, I think both we can just go to the next slide. They're both oh um go back up to that.

Sorry. 3 million. Um

continues to be uh um DPAC a very successful fund for us. Um and so we're very in solid shape with both of those funds. And then finally just uh a very very high level overview of the ARPA projects. This is the report.

So, we're required to report on a quarterly basis to the US Treasury and then submit an annual report uh to the US Treasury. 5 million of those funds, and we certainly currently have 25 projects in process and have completed five of those projects. And so with that, if there are any questions, more than happy to entertain those. >> Thank you, director.

We actually have a resident who's going to wants to speak on this item. Then I'll give colleagues an opportunity to exhaust all their questions and comments. So at this time, I want to thank you. I want to welcome Dale.

You stick around. You're not uh I want to welcome Dale McKiel. Um

are they virtual or in Oh, is it okay? Good afternoon, sir. Welcome. You'll have three minutes.

>> Thank you very much. I uh I like the shot clock. That's a nice touch. Um wait for my presentation to come up.

Okay. So, I want to comment on um the CIP stoplight report which is part of the uh finance presentation. Next slide. >> Go back one more.

There we go. One more. Okay. I want to focus on one project that's >> Restart the clock please.

I'm going to give you your full three. >> Great. Um, so I want to focus on one project, a third fork creek trail which phase two which goes from southern boundaries park up to the American tobaca trail. Next.

Next. So this slide this project has had continually sliding completion dates. When the city council awarded the design

contract in March of 2019, the expected completion date was winter of 2022. These other dates are taken from the uh city website and currently the expected completion date is winter of 2027. So you can see that that project has slid five years from what was originally anticipated. Next slide.

The uh project appears to be stuck at 65% design for almost three years. This again is based on these reports from the uh from the quarterly financial updates. Next slide. But yet when you look at the stoplight report, it says that the project is green, which I assume means it's kind of on track.

So the stoplight report doesn't appear to be a whole lot of providing a whole lot of meaningful data. Doesn't provide a a means for accountability when these projects are are s kind of getting stuck in the process. And um this is not an isolated example. The uh the uh R. Kelly Bryant

Bridge Trail uh has also been sort of stuck at 65% design for three years. And the Durham Rail Trail, the downtown rail trail completion date has also slipped. Um when that project went out to design in February 2021, uh we said it was going to be completed in fall of 2024. Well, now that has slid to spring of 2027, and I would say most of our trail, bicycle, and sidewalk projects are chronically delayed.

Next slide. Uh it doesn't have to be this way. The Acusta Trail, which is a rail trail up in the mountains. Uh the first six miles of that trail, opened in July.

Uh the design firm for that project was selected in November of 2021. So that was like eight months after the downtown rail trail. They've completed design and construction and cut the ribbons uh and and that project was actually delayed about six months due to Helen. Next slide. So my request to you is just uh a

improve the CIP stoplight report and I understand that there are some changes to that that are already in progress. So uh kudos to that. But also like I would ask you to focus on the chronic delays of our trail, bicycle and sidewalk projects in Durham. Uh as many of you probably know uh Bike Durham did a report last year which has 10 recommendations.

Would ask you to look look at those and uh we just say we've got millions of dollars invested in these projects and project costs construction costs are continuing to increase. So uh you know every time all the delays we're just digging oursel into a deeper hole and uh appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much sir. Uh let me acknowledge the arrival of the mayor and say good afternoon to him. Madam clerk if you'll let the record reflect that. Also colleagues there is staff um working on this project present in case any if that presentation prompted any queries from colleagues from council members there is staff here uh to address that if you want to uh pursue

that. But at this time um I'll yield uh to colleagues for questions, comments for for director Flora on the quarterly report, finance report and any questions you may have from our our residents uh questions prompted by our residents uh presentation as well. So >> I have one question to start Mr. Flor.

Thank you so much for the presentation as always. So I'm just trying to understand the sort of story with the general fund. So, so we we budgeted we budgeted um to to for the the budget we proposed about 297 in revenues for the general fund, right? And expenditures are 306 million.

So, we were expecting some of variance from the budget, right? And we were planning to use some general fund to cover that. And so from your presentation, we're just have to we're having to dig a little bit more into the general fund to cover a little bit more since we had a shortfall particularly on the revenue side. >> Yeah. So historically when we we develop budgets, we balance the budget with

reserves, right? And so um and then usually through the course of the year there are savings in areas where um those savings then account for the approp appropriated fund balance that we use to balance the budget. It's just in the last few years we've been using more of that appropriated fund balance than than we had anticipated. >> And so it looks like your projections through the year end is we'll have to use a little bit more of the fund balance than we had planned in the budget.

Correct. About a million something more. >> Yes. Yes.

Okay. That's my that's my question for now. >> Thank you. Council.

>> Well, actually I think I make sure I'm clear. I I think what I'm saying is we're using Yes. So, so from and I we can get the presentation up again so I can probably show it. Um >> because there is there is there is the adopted budget which which we used to balance. Right. And >> I think it's slide eight, right?

>> Yeah. And then there is the there's the carry forwards and the carryovers which then we're moving over the incumbrances and then all the carryover requests. And so if if we want to look at um go down the next No, go up. Go up to one more.

There we go. No, I'm sorry. Go back down. Right there, I think is what I wanted.

Is it there? >> Okay. So the Right. 4 million and then when we do the carry forward so that negative is is is really represents the the reserves that we've budgeted >> we're drawing on.

Right. >> Right. And so then when we do the adjusted so in the adjusted budget that's the carryover request and the carry forward request. So the incumbrances from the prior year that we move and then the additional projects. And so ultimately then that that means we are we are budgeting then $21 million

of reserves um to cover then those those adjusted B adjusted budget items. 4 million. So it's not $1 million. It really is it's one it' be $1 million over what the adopted budget was.

>> That's what that's my point. Yeah. Yeah. >> Thank you.

>> All right. Council Cavier. >> Thank you. 7% and so what what we are over that that would be really helpful.

>> Yes. And so so uh director Rearen and I had that discussion and we we purposely did not put it in there because I really don't have final numbers yet at this point. And so it you will see that slide um I think during the the carryover presentation which is which will be in a couple of >> That's what I was also going to ask is what when we're going to see carryover and carry forward. Uh that's so one question I'd love to see the fund balance slide when you all get it. to I was going to ask about carry forward and

carry over and then I mean to your point I think everybody's been watching the economy carefully this year trying to figure out what's happening I think to your point is a canary in a coal mine uh I think things are going to slow down um finan like a lot um and I I think w y'all both finance and budget staff in this city are excellent we have a long history of excellent work we have been awarded things for it Um, so I have deep trust in in y'all's expertise. Um, and I think you're seeing the same thing. And so we have to get ahead as best we can. And I think you're prepared for that, which is why we're starting to have conversations earlier than we usually do.

Um, we're going to have to dig deep into what is actually happening in our budget. What is in there that is old that is not? which is why I know why we're doing a strategic plan refresh, right? We got to dig in there, figure out what's old, what has to go, where we

can get more efficient. We need to have conversations with the county where there's duplication and how because otherwise like there's also expectations around employee pay and we you already highlighted that last year when we were adopting the budget. So none of this is you've telegraphed what's happening. Um, we're in for a real tight budget cycle next year.

Um, and I don't think our revenue is going to get better because we what's happening nationally is not going to get better. Um, so I want to just go ahead and telegraph very publicly that we're going to have to do a lot of due diligence in in getting rid of either initiatives, programs, whatever it is. um that you know they're from 10 years ago. They were put in the base budget and are they really necessary anymore? Do they align with our strategic plan uh to get us to where we need to be next year? Uh we all are very aware that we I think the county did three tax increases in a row.

We did two in a row. We have to be real thoughtful about what we're asking residents to pay if our economic um like the macroeconomic um circumstances. Duke is cutting. We've had mass, you know, USAD, you know, pretty much got completely defunded.

And we know there's a lot of folks who live in Durham who had jobs that don't anymore. And so those headwinds, we have to get as close to, you know, we have to be very thoughtful, intentional, and understand what's happening broadly and those effects on our residents. I don't think sales tax is going to get better. I think it's going to continue to decrease as people tighten belts because people are very unsure of what's coming and we rely on that revenue.

Um, and so I think y'all are very aware of it. And I just want to go ahead and flag it and say that I expect this council uh to to to be ready to dig deep uh and and spend some real time with staff on our budget next year. That's all. Thank you. >> Thank you, Council Member Council Member Baker.

Mr. Floyd, you talked a little bit about the wonkiness of the sales tax. Can you just give us a little bit more on that, the um nonprofit reimbursements, a little bit more on that process? >> And so I may defer uh to my colleague who really manages that.

>> Christina Rearden, budget and management services. Um so the way that um nonprofits work is that um they will uh pay sales tax and then submit a refund to the department of revenue. And so, um, the sales tax initially comes in and then it gets deducted. Um, and so when that kind of happens sometimes is a little wonky as, um, uh, director Flora, um, you know, kind of mentioned and so, um, it's one of the reasons too that when we are making projections, especially at the end of the year because sometimes they come in, um, every six months and so the end of the year tends to be um, a time where we're there may be some volatility. So, um, another reason we wanted to wait to give you a fund balance number, um, and and it does affect kind of how we project sales tax, um, those refunds.

>> Thank you. And and wonkiness, timing is inconsistent. >> Uh, timing and we have seen um, a couple of negative refunds, which are unusual, but some some things where they've taken them in and taken them out. And so, that's something as well too that has happened.

and we have been in contact with them and um we are very careful on watching those. We do keep very close um ties on what is happening in the community as far as nonprofits and try and get a sense of what to try and predict but also um we don't have control over when those might come in and kind of how they come in as well too. >> Okay. Thank you.

>> Yeah. >> Thank you council. >> And I will say you know it traditionally it's very it's easy. It's it's predictable right?

So just like uh Duke University or uh even us, we go after ourselves refund. We time it and so so we expect every year to see this. And I think what we had seen in previous years is that they were giving more refunds than we were anticipating because it's like we know who the big players are and

when they hit and and so when we see those negative refunds, that is when you're like, well, what what just happened? And so which is why I I I will pin this on the Department of Revenue. And and that's just one giant chunk for all of the different tax uh exempt uh entities in in Durham, >> right? So they go after so so they decide when they want to go after it and so it's usually on a a pretty routine schedule.

Um but if they get off their routine and they do something, but which is what is weird because it's like, oh well, we see it looks like based upon historical information, we've already gotten all these and so we should be in the clear. And so then when they start going back and forth and then giving us a negative refund, it it just it it wres havoc and with uh the uh the books and even when we reach out, it's it's it's a black box over there. Sometimes they're not as um I think they'll tell you it's by general statute, but um it's hard to sort of drill into a lot of that

information that they're >> Do we have a ballpark? I mean, I know I'm putting you on the spot. Do we have a ballpark of kind of what that amount is of the reimbursement amount >> for overall that we see? >> Yeah, >> we can get you that information.

>> Yeah, I know that was >> I don't want to just throw it out there. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, >> Council Member Cook, do you have any questions? >> Um, thank you and thank you, Julia.

Great presentation. Um I just I was wondering a little bit about um kind of the separating out of operating expenditures from personnel services. Do we ever see any overlap there or I guess I'm just thinking about like I don't know if this comes into this into play but like workers comp and things like that where like they might not be specific to salary or wages or or care but might end up being an operating cost. Do those ever did we ever see

overlaps in there? >> I I hang on just a second. Yeah. So workers comp, I think most of that is budgeted in our risk fund.

>> Our risk fund. Okay. >> Yeah. So which then ultimately will get charged back as as a sort of indirect cost, but >> Okay.

>> Um >> Okay. But otherwise pretty separate. Okay. Yeah.

>> Um and then I I had that question, but that one was answered. Um I'm going to pass, but I do have some questions that are like not as related. So we'll let my colleagues have an opportunity to ask about this data and then come back to me. >> Absolutely.

We'll give you an opportunity to exhaust all the questions you have. Council member Rrist and then council member Freeman. >> U thanks May. Um Mr.

Flora on this issue of sales taxes. So I seem to recall during the budget process that we like scaled back our estimates for sales tax because it had been coming in slower than we thought. 8 less than we even like expected. Right. >> Right. And again what I what I'm what I

8 million really should be more like $800,000 off budget because the $2 million that you see that we were overbudget last year I think goes back to the wonkiness of the department of revenue in a like in the it would be like this month of last year we thought it was to be acred back to the prior year and so when in real in reality it probably should have been on our books this year and so which would which would then make it like we hit the budget because I think last year In our discussions, we really did expect that we were going to hit budget. We scaled back on on the amount of increase of budget that we used for the uh in developing the budget, but sales tax is going up. It's just how much of a percent it's actually going up. And so so really ultimately what I'm saying is I feel like sales tax is about where we had budgeted it. It's just a it's a booking it's a booking

issue from last year to this year because of the information we got from the department of revenue >> but across the two years we're still about about 800,000 short below. Yeah. So a little bit short >> but $800,000 on the amount that we're receiving. >> Yeah.

Yeah. It's it's a smaller amount. I guess I'm also wondering like what like what are the models you run to project sales tax uh revenues? That's is that something the state provides to us or do we run models like what are how do we get that data?

I mean, we use historical information, but I think we just it's a standard and I I'll let uh Director Rearen sort of discuss how they project that. >> Yeah. Uh Christina Rearden. Um we do have models that we're using basing a lot of historical data and then um we're looking also at trends. Um, so we're looking sometimes at the sales tax data, not just on what we're collecting because we do have refunds in there that can be very volatile, but also looking at gross collections as well too and seeing kind of what um is happening on that end as well. And then kind of what are the trends in the economy and stuff and some of our um you know uh

uh experts in the field and stuff like that in the area and um >> so it's not just historic trends, it's it's also looking at like things like inflation rates, right? Sorry. Consumer confidence even I think is also a big factor. >> We have our league of municipalities.

They do a revenue report. We sometimes use that for some information as well too to just see what's going on. So >> So it's not one big model. You're right.

It's sort of like you're using some historical data using sort of inputs from other >> it's it's a little bit art and science. Yes. Yeah. Because it is it is a harder um revenue source to predict.

>> Okay. Thank you Freeman. >> Thank you. I just wanted to track back to the transportation and transit and you mentioned that the county services were not occurring.

I just want to figure out exactly which services those are. >> Uh we have director uh Egan here to help us with that. >> Good afternoon, Mayor, Mayor Prom, and members of council. Sean Egan, director of transportation. Uh so what you see uh with the county funded services for

transit was um that we had a major expansion of East Durham services uh on the route three and the new route 13 that was planned in the second half of fiscal year 25. Due to some of uh the issues that we were having with aging equipment uh and not having enough buses available for service, we were unable to implement those services uh in the second half of fiscal year 25. Uh so we've been working uh on two fronts. One is to uh purchase additional bud buses.

So the council approved that uh in February. So those buses will be uh arriving in the next few months. Uh in addition to that uh we uh are also uh stepping up uh and improving our maintenance programs so that uh more of our buses are available for service. So the expansions that were planned uh in the second half of fiscal

year 25 uh a portion of that was implemented on August 23rd uh with evening and uh Sunday uh additional service frequency uh but the bulk of that is scheduled uh to be implemented in November. Uh so since we didn't run we budgeted the revenue from the Durham County transit plan for those services we were unable because of the vehicles to provide those services. Uh so uh we didn't uh receive that revenue but we uh are uh now on track to be able to implement those services in November. >> And I just want to know how that's going to impact I guess for the fund what that looks like.

Is that going to hit? Well, because it's going to be delayed, it's going to hit in 26 as opposed to even being a part of like the I don't know what quarter is it from September to December. Is that considered first first quarter? >> So, it'll hit for first quarter for next next budget cycle is what you're saying. So, we have worked with our partners at

Durham County and Go Triangle and the Triangle West TPO to line up uh full funding for those service improvements in the 26 budget. So, when we start delivering those services in November, they'll be 100% reimburseable from the Durham County Transit. >> I just want to make sure those funds will be available up front, not like it'll be taken back and then have to re be reallocated. Yeah, they're thankfully they're uh in the approved uh budgets for the transit plan for FY26.

>> Council member Cabaro, you had some additional questions. >> Thank you. Um with the carry forward and the carryover items, are we going to do an analysis if that's the best use of funds if we need to if we're worried about fund balance? Because usually those are items like basically a department thought they were going to spend X, they didn't spend it, then they want to use that money for these items, right?

That's essentially what that decision is. And we get a list and we usually adopt that list. Are we going to have a conversation about is that the best strategy based on what we're seeing

with with um with this presentation when it does come to council? >> Uh yes, Christina Rearden. Um and so uh that will be coming in the next work session and so um you will be getting a chance to um we'll bring it forward as an agenda item. We have had a kind of um modified carryover process this year um in light of some of the um you know things that you've been talking about as well too.

So we did we did ask for departments to be really to be to be very conservative this year um and so you will see that that that list is lighter than it has been in years past. The carry forward is not something that we control. That is something that just happens um because they are incumbrances that sit on the books and roll things that we've already committed to a contract. Exactly.

The carry over are things that we have control over. Okay. So, >> perfect. Thank you.

>> Council member Cook, did you want to revisit? >> Um yeah, this is probably going to be a question for you, Tim. Um

I was wondering I I'm just and this is my mistake because I have been now looking through the whole report as opposed to the slides that you put in front of us and so um I'm too deep in the weeds. Uh but I was wondering if you could just speak briefly about our investment report and how that sort of plays in with the information that you've given us. So the investment report so um you will notice that there is no investment income that is in the general fund because all the investment income is is usually in a capital project fund and so so most of those investments are any interest we make on those investments are are usually in in capital funds. So all those investment earning or enterprise funds, the respective enterprise funds.

And so if it's if it if there's a fund balance in an enterprise fund, we proportionally allocate those investment income revenues to that fund. Otherwise, the investment off of the general fund uh um fund balance goes into the CIP debt fund. Um is that >> Oh, okay. Yes, that answers my question.

>> And so that just offsets um >> I see. Okay. construction projects. >> Okay, that's helpful.

Um it doesn't appear is it broken down by um funds in my >> not in probably what you're seeing in the the cute the in the investment report? No, it's just because it's all we do it all as one big amount and then we just uh push it out and allocate it >> to uh the departments or the respective funds. Okay. just based upon the percentage of the the amount of um investments, >> right?

Okay. >> Earnings. >> That makes sense. Thank you.

Yeah. Um and then this is an unrelated question. Um but there have been some folks that have been asking about the purchasing of the bonds and whether that information is available. Could could you speak to that?

>> Yeah. So when we go to the market, so when we uh when we go to the market, usually it's it's like a it's a I don't want to say it's like a private sale, right? So we have we have brokers or firms that that will will um in one

market that buy uh these funds and then for individuals they're usually buying it on the secondary market right so they go through a they go through a broker account so you know if you have a brokerage account and you want to buy um the uh a Durham bond it is through one of the other passroughs that it bought the bonds originally and so it's usually individuals usually buy on the secondary market. So in the in the the primary market when we first go out there, it's usually, you know, insurance funds, mutual funds, um other investment services firms that that invest in our um in our our bonds initially and then they um then some of them use them just for their own portfolios and then others will put them on the secondary market and sell the bonds on the secondary market. >> Right. So I can appreciate then the secondary market sales are we're totally disconnected from. Um but we are is there access to the to that primary

sale? >> There is but it usually is it's it's usually the bigger they're buying big chunks. So it's not like we're selling individual smaller amounts. It there's like a bidding war that sort of goes on uh for um for those and and usually I think in past experience you don't see many individuals that do that.

And and so I did print off because I was sort of anticipating this question. >> Oh my god. >> And so I did I did print off uh from the the last big issuance we did for the the bond referendum who were the the the agencies or who who were the companies that were were buying these. Um interestingly enough, the majority of those were insurance companies.

Um so Travelers was like the number one big percher, State Farm, uh Safety National, um Indiana Farm Bureau auto. And so they're buying them uh for their portfolios because they're mitigating risk, >> right? And so it it's it's almost like guaranteed uh income for them and and so there's stability and predictability there. Um but then there are some other uh firms that that I think are called

authorized participants and so they're buying it and then they're they're the ones who are actually putting it out there uh into the um the exchange uh for for others to invest in. and and so that so that would be my you know if someone wants to buy some of our our bonds to me that is the route to go is to do it through your individual brokerage firm um and buy it on the secondary market. >> That's helpful. Um thank you for looking into that.

Uh and then my next question is I actually am curious about Mr. Miel's questions about the um stoplight uh report and its accuracy. So, I don't know if you want to pass that off. You look like you maybe >> if I if I might um appeal to you.

I if I because I'm curious about that as well. I was going to let them kind of cap it off for us since the staff is here, but if if the questions are still gerine to the financial part, I know council member Ris, Council Member Freeman, then we'll bring up staff to talk if that's okay. Therefore, thank you so much, Council Mis. Then, Council Member Freeman. Thank you, Mayor Pertim. So, um

I'm trying to still see the big picture here. So, especially related to fund balance. 4 million for the general fund and then for several I mean I mean I'm sorry we'll we'll have to draw down essentially, >> right? >> Yes.

>> And so on several of the enterprise funds we also have a negative variance meaning we'd have to draw down on the on the on fund balance. Correct. So do we have anywhere in this presentation like what the expected total draw would be on the fund balance because we have again it's sort of individual enterprise funds but like is there and this may go back to council member Cavier's question about um sort of where the fund balance is so having sort of a sense of like what is the fund balance and then what's the expected draw on that from from both the general fund and all these separate enterprise funds it gives a sense of like what's the total impact >> and so normally we don't do one big cumulative fund balance it's we treat the general eneral fund separate from sort of the all the other enterprise funds and and so I will say in the enterprise funds you know there is a a

significant fund balance in water and sewer um and I think as you go I think the one where we're running a sort of a negative fund balance right now is just the parking operation um we're in in solid waste it we're we're about there uh but but you know that but those we're we're running those like businesses and so we we treat those separately and and so we're so like for the parking but it really is just being offset for the most part as a loan treated as a loan by from water management. So for the general fund, we have significant fund balance and so I I don't want to give you any impression that that we are that there's not a lot of fund balance there. I mean I think um when we I think when we're I think we're projecting somewhere we're in the ballpark of somewhere around $60 million that we are going to have in in the general fund balance and and we know those ratios and we're that we we should be maintaining. 7% target and then and then we look at that information. We are just sort of apprehensive about putting those numbers

out right now while we while there are still preliminary information out there and I I really do feel like that by the time we get to um the carryover um in the next couple of weeks that we will have a better understanding of that information. >> Yeah. No, I appreciate that and don't want to suggest in any way any kind of concern. It's more I think it is more the sense of like the visibility just want to sort of see those numbers when they're ready just so we can have a good understanding of that >> and and absolutely happy to um collaborate with uh my colleague here on how we can sort of get that information to you and so you can see it >> great much appreciated comprehensive >> sure Freeman >> I was going to just say that Council Cook asked my main question but uh and then just touching back on the green light was u >> all right thank thank Thank you colleagues. Um we have staff who's here that's working on the third fork if they want to come up and speak to the uh our residents inquiry about the stoplight and if you want to demystify anything

about the CIP process and the timeline of deliverance of projects. >> Good afternoon. Mike Boyd, General Services Project Management Group Third Fork Creek. Um, I acquired that project spring of last year and we are currently, we've gone through our internal reviews with the client departments.

It's with DOT right now for their review. We we've received comments back and submitted back to them. They're working on that and it's also in tier 4 site plan review as well right now. Same thing with R.

Kelly Bryant. R. Kelly Bryant. We're scheduling we're we're targeting the fall of 27 for bid, winter of 27 to begin construction.

Anything beyond that? Henry Prosperity, our division manager, can speak to that. >> Okay. >> Good afternoon.

Henry Prosper, general services. Um, so the trails have absolutely been experiencing a lot of delays for a number of reasons. Um, Third Fork Creek was the example in the

presentation. Um, so I can speak to that as an example. Um the longest schedule delays on that project were due to two supplemental design agreements that were due to revised trail alignments. Um the total schedule lag from that two supplemental agreements was about two and a half years.

So the first uh supplemental agreement came about through public engagement. Uh the project was well into design when the engagement blueprint was adopted by city council. So staff went out to engage the public. As a result of that public engagement, there was a recommendation to move the trail alignment that was going through a residential neighborhood to be diverted through a wooded corridor.

So that was a pretty big delay. It was a pretty big design ramifications as well as cost ramifications. Um so then the project progressed into design. It proceeded to about 65% design.

This was about 2022. and the plans were actually submitted to NC DOT for their approvals. Uh during

that uh submitt there was some requests also that the trail be picked up out of some of the environmentally sensitive areas. Uh they asked that the alignment and the profile of the trail be brought out of the 100red-year flood plane. So that was also a significant delay. Um so again the aggregate of those two supplemental agreements caused the project about 2 and 1/2 years.

So, I think that accounts for the big gap between 2022 to 2024, which was probably noted uh as some of the um the information that that Dale had presented. >> Why would the designation remain green during all of that time and when when when does it turn yellow or red? >> I think that that's an error. I think that the stoplight report that obviously the project is way behind and delayed.

So, I can't speak to the accuracy of that, but I would think from my perspective that that project would be in the red. Who's in charge of the stoplight? >> Um, all the project managers input that information on a quarterly basis. >> All right.

Thank you. It's very helpful. Colleagues, you have any questions or >> I would say our budget management staff

can also speak to plans to update that process which which been underway. Are you guys comfortable just giving a status update on on what's going to be replacing the stop report? >> Thank you both. Good afternoon.

JJ Scott, assistant director with budget and management services. Um, what you are seeing this, the current version of the stoplight report is the last gasp of a technically obsolete system that we used to collect and distribute this information. We spent uh about a year trying to fix it, but with the upcoming change to our new um ERP um financial records system, uh the decision was made in the springtime to let that go um and begin transitioning to a new process for both gathering information. So we will gather more and better information. Um and also at the very least uh an administratively easier

um task to collect this and get this out in a meaningful manner. Um and so I did meet with uh Mr. McKiel and a few other folks uh earlier in the spring. Um and so we were able to hear some of these concerns.

We shared many uh of those concerns. And so we have a new report that we'll be uh rolling out for Q1 of the current fiscal year. Um many of the concerns that you uh heard here today will be addressed. Um we won't have an option anymore for um continually changing um project delivery dates.

There will be a original delivery date along with you know the actual now uh expected delivery date. um much clearer direction on what the red, yellow, green uh means. And so, you know, working with our our project managers uh to be able to clarify so that someone looking at the report does have a good sense of

where we stand um with each of these reports. So, for about a year, we will be in this interim reporting uh phase um until we get fully stood up in this new system. at which point then we can start um looking at other opportunities to communicate more clearly um with you all with the public about where we stand on these uh major major projects. Specific questions >> appreciate that.

M the manager actually wants to interject something and we'll turn to you colleagues. >> I wanted to commend uh the budget staff for their work on the report. I also uh want to say that this uh coincides with I think an organizationwide effort uh to do uh a more regular cadence of project updates and management uh project updates and reviews by senior management. give a lot of credit to uh DCM propes who began this work under DCM Wimbush uh whereby now on a quarterly basis senior leaders from across the city are meeting with general services staff to review the status of each

project uh to identify barriers and to try and find uh creative solutions to move those along. One of the things that uh the staff who reported out on the trail today didn't didn't talk much about but I would highlight is is we have experienced significant delays in project reviews by the North Carolina Department of Transportation. I don't in any way want to pass the buck but I do want to acknowledge that especially for our trails projects. um that can be a significant delay and especially coming out of COVID, we saw NC DOT suffer um major staff turnover and major vacancies in project management roles whereby we would go months without getting updates.

I think that is something that I'm very interested and the DCMS are very interested in trying to elevate uh our tools for working with our partners who have to permit these projects in order to avoid these delays. Uh and that's something that we are working on now. But I think going forward, uh, I feel confident saying that I think there'll be more public transparency and more transparency to council about the status

of projects and specifics around where delays are being encountered and what's driving that. Thank you, Mayor Pertim. >> Thank you. We'll go around the horn.

Council member Riss. >> Thank you, Mayor Pam. Um, appreciate the additional comments from the city manager and the comments from Mr. Scott.

So, like this is one of the areas we we end up hear a lot, right? And when we talk to residents, what we hear a lot is like what's going on with these major projects? The rail trail, southern liberty creek restoration project, another. So this is one that residents have a lot of concern about.

And so and I think everyone in this das and I think all residents understand that things happen, right? There's delays from DOT. There may be environmental things that happen. I think what people are partly asking for is like when we have the delays that may happen like what are we doing on our end to maybe speed things up in other ways? " So that's what I think people are looking for. And I want to the manager and and the mayor, I think we need to do a better job of figuring out ways, are there internal things happening that we can say for this

internal process, we can speed that up to get us back on track because I think people all they see is like delays. They don't see, hey, in this project, we're actually speeding it up a little bit. So, I think we need to be creative on our end to figure out ways when the inevitable stuff happens that we can get stuff back on track and ways that we show our own sort of creativity and like innovative spirit here at the city. So, I think that's something that I think our residents would really appreciate because all they hear is like delay delay delay and I think as Mr.

Michael showed like when the it's not just about transparency when the website says on one date be delivered this date we just change the dates that doesn't really like we need to have much more visibility on the council if that's if we're pushing something back we need to know and know why so we can communicate that to residents because I think there's a lot of concern about our ability to deliver on these big projects and I think again Mr. Mielle mentioned a lot of them are sidewalks and and paths and stuff. So, we got to get better. >> Council, >> you want to >> Thank you, Senator.

>> Cool. Uh, thank you and good to see everyone. So, what I'd like to

contribute to this and I appreciate the information, but I'm more interested in what I get sort of along the l same lines what we can do to uh to expedite the process or make sure we stay on on target of the timeline. Uh I want to make sure that I publicly state that I I will utilize my political capital and my position of influence uh up the hierarchy. you know, if we're getting a delay at DOT, then I want to know because I can call board members, I can call the secretary of DOT, I can call the governor's office and they're going to answer the phone. Um, and just like we're looking at what inter internal efficiencies we need to aspire toward, they can do the same thing.

Uh, I just cannot take DOT has issues and we don't know what those issues are. I want to be a part of helping to pressure them to seek better outcomes. Um I I I'm just going to be a nuisance on this. The

private sector has to lead, but it does not function the same. And I know that we're not the private sector, but if things are getting done there, then we should aspire to do the same have the same type of outcome. So I understand, you know, government has its bureaucracies. Um I understand all of those things.

I'm just not going to accept it. So, we need to find out what we need to do. And if that means, you know, some relationship, you know, um uh just some relationship massaging, then we'll have to do that. But I don't want to find out a year later at a report at a work session that well, DOT had an issue.

So, we're going to do some internal pressuring here. Uh we run into a situation in another agency. I want to know about it and not later. I want to know about it then and let me get on the call and and utilize my influence, right, as mayor, right? >> Thank you. Um, I appreciate everything

that's been shared and agree with my colleagues. Um, at the end of the day, we're the the electeds are the ones who often get I mean, y'all get some of it, but we get the wrath of the public and it's their tax dollars. And so, we have to be as efficient and effective as possible. That is our burden, both staff and electeds.

uh and we have to do it responsibly. So while I appreciate the internal and I think there are some changes coming, council needs to be consistently updated. We cannot approve budgets, we cannot increase taxes, we cannot ask the community to pay for things when then things don't get delivered. It it breaks trust and and it makes folks not believe in government.

Uh so when then when we do want another bond in a few years, they're going to vote it down, right? Because what are you what are you paying for? something that's going to built be built 15 years late. Um, so and and the NC DOT thing, I get it.

But at the end of the day, there was a trail built after Helen and NC dot had to do reviews there. So, at some point, whatever pressure needs to happen, we have a new division uh engineer. Um, several of us

sit on these boards. uh we have relationships where they're needed and we need to do a better job collaborating and communicating electives to staff. We understand that there are limitations to what y'all can do and so then there is the politics of these things and that is a component of the work. So um I appreciate everything that staff's done and I expect uh some real clear wins in the next year and movement on projects.

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate the the intentionality and um of the approach that you've outlined here, the the pivot of how we'll be uh reporting and receiving the reports. I want to emphasize the lowhanging fruit here, which is even before we get to the stage of what Council Member Bruce was speaking to, figuring out how are we going to pivot when there's a delay, just the communication. Um, I think that's one of the biggest things I hear is I think I think people I think people understand that there's a lot of

different factors. These projects are complicated. There's a lot of stakeholders. There's a lot of entities that are involved.

Um, but so many people that that I hear from are frustrated just because they don't they don't know what's we don't know on a lot of projects what's happening. Um, why something has been delayed. Um, to the mayor's point, I mean, is it NC DOT? Who gets involved at that point?

Um so I think I think that you know is sort of the lowerhanging fruit here is what I would want to emphasize here is just when there is a delay that we get to learn about it. Um that we get to learn about it and why it is and is there some other option. If not okay at least there's a communication on on that and people can understand. So um but again I I appreciate I appreciate folks like uh Mr. coming and and uh um you know push pushing us on on this as well as others um and uh again the the thoughtfulness

and the intentionality of you know we we see this report it's not working to the extent that it should and we're going to pivot and start doing this in a new way. So So thank you. I hate that you're having to stand up there and take all of this JJ because I know that you came up just to talk about the new tool. Um, so this is not like aimed at you or anyone in particular.

I I just want to like absolutely agree with what my colleagues have stated and I was going to say something similar to what everyone has said about folks understanding delays and and the transparency being the important part. I am curious though that we knew that there were issues with this tool that we decided to release it anyway and also we left these mistakes in it. Um I mean it hasn't been updated. There still says green on all of these ones that were talked about today.

And so I'm just kind of curious about that. And then I know you said that there was going to be about a year-long roll out for the new system. And so like maybe you just could be a little bit more detailed about what we're going to do in the interim. >> Sure. Um so when we made the decision

that we could not use the current system anymore which did generate that it was too late in the process to collect all the new information from our um project managers. Um there are a lot of project managers who are contributing to um to this report. And so we we did make the decision to go with the information that we had and that had been consistent with what we had previously provided. um you following the same same guidelines uh as the project managers had used before.

Um the delay between the data collection on the Q4 report and when it when you actually receive it is is longer because of the recess and so it >> I know it doesn't seem like that was a long time ago. >> Yeah. Um but we are in 3 weeks going to start collecting the new information for the new quarterly report which will be wholly different. So I did mention a year-long process that's to stand up the ultimate financial reporting system. Um

the report that that we're talking about which will clean up much of this um you will receive at the close of the first quarter. So approximately what six weeks after um after the close of the first quarter. So what early November I think. >> Okay.

So the project managers already have the new or they have new guidance >> new format and and and again m much of the information isn't fundamentally different. Some of it is like collecting the original um completion date and actually keeping track of it. Um and again this is not to say that it's not tracked anywhere. This I'm I'm speaking only about this quarterly stoplight report.

Um but this will be a way for us to have it to improve accountability, improve communication, transparency um for you all because again we we are in budget. We're very much a a go-between in in this process. Um and so we can play convening and communicating role and we hope to really improve on that in

the beginning next quarter. >> Awesome. Thank you, >> Council Freeman. Thank you.

>> Thank you. And I appreciate the explanation and my colleagues comments. I just want to add that I think what I think so I don't I don't want want to repeat everything, but what I do want to say is is that the communication piece is not limited to just the communication office. Making sure that there's a way to navigate or at least have some open line of communication with our engagement team um might be helpful.

and just making and also just knowing like there's going to be delays. Um what I think I heard most in Mr. Mc Mciel's um presentation was the changes and the misrepresentation are the main concerns that I'm following up on. And then just knowing like is if this roll out is going to be automated. It sounds like it's going to be some automation in there. Um, there are new tools you can use and I would love to have a conversation on that if we can do

that offline. But, uh, I understand the consistency is is key and I want to make sure that we're not sacrificing consistency for truth, so to speak. Like there's Yeah, that's a little bit wonky. But um yeah I I I understand you know that the the process is the process and whatever is happening with NC do I mean there are many levers uh that you can use. I would also add the and I'm just trying to make sure I know that also matching uh this process up with stakeholders um prior to and post making sure that there's no um kind of drag in information because I feel like what held up Third Fourth Creek was that some folks got the information and others didn't and then you had to go back and have the conversations and yeah there was a lot of back there was a lot of back and forth in that and um Just trying to make sure and then I'm hearing that the project managers are

the point of update. There has to be some there has to be some automation there too because I don't want what I what I want to be clear is the project managers doing their own updating doesn't feel very audit friendly. There should be some Yeah, I'm going keep saying automation. So um hoping that whatever's coming forward, we'll have that included.

But thank you. >> Thank you council member. Council member Cabier. Yeah, just real quick when we are done with the process, this is around the communications uh piece, ensuring the public is also aware that this has been updated.

So, especially our advocates who are, you know, they're they're very involved um and and uh so they can also see that the tool has been updated and that we have followed through with the thing we were going to say or going to do. Sorry. >> Council, will you finish? >> All right. Council member Freeman, you >> and then also making sure that wherever communications is dialing in. I would love to have more communications to our

boards, committees, and commissions. I think the there's kind of a a flat layer to staff and council, but those volunteers who are engaged should also um be getting that update as well. I think that'll help and making sure that that there's some some background, some back and forth there. >> Council member Wrist So just to confirm so for the first quarter or the next fiscal year we will see some the the new version of the stoplight report we will see.

>> Yes. >> Yeah. And is that also is that available in the interim or is that is that going to be available for the first time in that new first quarter? >> That'll be that'll be the first time that that data is collected and collated.

Yes. >> And presented. Okay. Thank you >> Mr.

Scott. Next fiscal year or this fiscal year. Sorry. I wanted to get >> first quarter of FY26.

>> Yeah. This fiscal year. >> I'm sorry when you said next I wanted to be clear. >> Yes.

only because we're talking about >> we've been talking about last year. >> Colleagues, anyone else? >> All right. Thank you all for for a great presentation. Colleagues, our next presentation is slated for 30 minutes.

m. m. and then go right into our presentation. I'll yield back to the mayor at that time as well.

Thank you. We're journ till uh we're in recess till 3. I think you guys button [Music] I told I was like I don't know what

Make sure you know I'm not doing it. >> I did not Some people of Is This is

So, one minute warning. One minute warning. All

right, friends. m. If we'll come back to order. >> Where's the council?

>> Hold on a second. Colleagues, if you can hear me, you'll report back to the chamber. Sorry. All right, we're back in session. Uh, item number 22 is a Western Intake Partnership Project Update. Good

afternoon, sir. >> Good afternoon, Mayor, Mayor Pro10, members of council. Don Gley, Department of Water Management. Um, we're here to talk about uh where we are uh and give you an update on the Western Intake Partnership Project.

Um, there'll be a number of uh important agenda items coming to you this fall. So, we wanted to give you um kind of a refresher about where we are, what's been accomplished, and what's coming ahead. Um prior to starting I did want to also mention that um also here is Sid Miller who's been our project manager um assistant director in water management as well as Jeff Atkins who's been the project manager with HDR for our program manager. Um both of them um have done an outstanding job through this project dealing with all of our consultants, all the regulatory agencies um you know local um state and federal um as well as all the outreach that they've done with the community, with the construction community, with our local businesses and our minority businesses, making them aware of this project. as we now move and transition

out of the preliminary engineering into more hardcore design and potential construction. And I also like to thank our um city attorney's office because they've been working closely with us for all the agreements with our other utility partners as well as the finance department as well as the general services real estate group who we work closely with um along the way for um our project. So to give you an overall update of what we'll be talking about today, um we'll be kind of giving you an up, as I mentioned, where we are um where the state is of the numerous agreements and construction design elements and then um what's coming um up front. So feel feel free to ask questions along the way um or save them for the end.

Either way works for me. Um a quick refresher, you know, the join like allocations are up here. um in the up the round four allocations, you know, were given out in 2017. The city got

5 million gallons of water in the allocation process. Um the current intake that uh Carrie Apex has, it's not large enough to take out the um water that's needed for the western partners, which is us um AASA, Chattam County, and Pittsburgh. So, you know, we went and, you know, needed to have another intake built on the west side of Jordan Lake for and there are only two locations that the core of engineers we're going to allow intakes, one on the east side, one on the west side. So, um there is currently about nine MGD unallocated with the reservoir for the water supply pool in Jordan Lake. Um there is the modeling potential similar to Falls Lake that potentially at a future date that there could be some modeling done to increase that water supply pool but it wouldn't be very significant and would be shared both on the east um eastern utilities and the western utilities as

well. So, um, the overall project is building a new intake on Jordan Lake, building a new treatment plant adjacent to the lake near the intake, and then pumping the water back to Durm, as well as making internal improvements to our distribution system to be able to handle the water coming in to our system. So, it's, you know, roughly um, you know, almost 17 miles of pipeline coming back into town and then we'll have to build over 10 miles of pipeline within the city to accommodate that because the water is coming in at a higher pressure and I'll be talking about that later in the presentation. >> Director, would you lift your microphone up a little?

Sure. Thank you. >> Um, as I mentioned, we'll be building a a raw water intake and a raw water pump station out at the intake which is well into Chattam County. um with a regional facility, the water transi transmission line back to Durham. Um as I said, over 17 miles, we'll be building two elevated

water tanks um as part of that project. Um the actual intake is out um on the lake. We discussed both with the core of engineers and North Carolina parks about whether we would have um the intake would be and the would be on the lake itself or would it be on the shore in the park area and we got direction to put it out in the lake which is similar to the intake that Carrie Apex has. So the intake is going to be out in the lake and we'll the pump station will be you know off North Carolina Parks property and Army Corps property.

So the location is the where the um old New Hope Creek. So it's at the lowest part of the lake. So we can pull water in should Jordan Lake ever get really low. But that didn't happen during the drought of 07 and08 because Jordan Lake is has such a large watershed that it wasn't impacted like the rest of the

area was during CO because the waterershed is so large. basically any drop of water that falls as it goes across North Carolina hits their wershed. So very resilient water supply. Um that's a illustration of the tower that will be constructed um out on the lake.

Um this is kind of an aerial shot of where the regional facility will be constructed, the treatment plant. Um >> recording stopped. Should I continue? Okay.

Um um it's 121 acre site. It's currently owned by AASA. So we're in the process of finalizing this land sale from AASA to Durham for the property. Um phase one for the treatment plant will be uh we'll be building a 20 million gallon a day treatment plant but the site plan or for the plant has been ultimately expansion is out to 77 million gallons.

So um we've completed a ongoing water quality sampling in Jordan Lake so we know what type of treatment um options we need to do with the treatment plant as well as looking at what we need to do as far as PAS in the Jordan Lake water and how how to treat that. Um this is a rendering of what the initial phase and footprint of the treatment plant will be um located adjacent to the lake. Um you know we completed the original memorandum of understanding for whip um with the partners um all of the at the bottom of the screen we had four major projects going on um that have been completed um the governance the intake and transmission preliminary engineering the water treatment plan preliminary engineering and the environment permitting and we're completing all of those and moving into design and construction and up to this point all the costs associated with that were distributed

between the four utilities um that's shown on the screen there. Um in Chadam County, um we executed an introal agreement with Chattam County um back in 2023 that allows the city to purchase property within Chattam County as well as condemn land in in Chadam County. And that's mostly for the um transmission main as we go along and need easements and construction easements and for the um potentially for the the tanks as well. Um we've done uh reszoning of the property to allow the treatment plant there in or in Chattam County.

Um as well as having approval for a septic system for the administration building that's there. Um and we're currently in negotiations for the uh parcel that that will be within Chattam County for the the tank. So what's changed over the last several years? Well, for Durham, no changes. Um, for AASA, they've chosen not to

participate in phase one because of the their currently their their long range water supply plan. They don't need their allocation at this time. For Pittsboro who really needed the water when we started this project, they've merged with Sanford. The Tri River Water is their water authority.

So they are now um Tri River is now the overseer and owner of and providing water and sewer services to the town of Pittsburgh. Chattam County also has merged with Tri River and they were also going to be a participant you know with the initial construction. Um but now that they've merged with Sanford um Stanford um has done a number of improvements over the last several years a lot of that around for the economic growth that was occurring in Chatten County. um Vinfast, Wolf Speed, etc. They got a large grant from the state of North Carolina to expand their water plant. So, um the needs for coming into the Western Intake

Partnership at this point have have now um been min minimized. >> I can ask a quick question to educate me on something. Would would our prerogative to condemn property in Chattam County be applicable to property we hadn't we don't own? I mean, if we if we if we can own it, what are we condemning?

And >> if if we had to get an easement and the owner, you know, we couldn't agree on the whether the terms the terms or the the monetary um >> that would allow us to >> that allows us to condemn the property >> in Chad. Okay. >> Right. All right.

Without having to go through the Chadam County Commissioners, >> right? Because we because they won't sell it to us, then we can Okay. Gotcha. All right.

Gotcha. and and that's per state law. >> Sure. Sure. >> So, um so that that's certainly having Pittsburgh and both Chattam County had a major need for participating in the Western Intake project. Um and that kind

of changed the landscape pretty dramatically as far as Durham is concerned. So, you know, we are for the most part going alone. Um Tri River may may or may not participate. Um, but a lot of the negotiations and a lot of the work on the all the agreements is to make sure that Durham is compensated when they come in at a later date and they will be able to, you know, pay for our investment that we have.

>> So, so phase one is at this point is just Durham. So, >> potentially a little bit with Tri River. So, we'll know that in the next couple months. Um, as I mentioned there, they're they're they're right now leaning heavily towards participating with just a million gallons, but that still is a significant amount of money in building a treatment plant.

>> So, does that mean that we then bear more costs upfront? Is that partly what's Yeah. Yes. >> And then that we will when they come into the partnership, they would then we'd be reimbursed for those costs,

>> right? We will work out a financial agreement with whatever entity whenever each entity comes in and then we'll recover our our all of our costs that have been accumulating >> right >> over the years as well as you know ongoing costs >> and so and because I think on the previous slide it showed that that the original is now expired right >> um no we've completed that and um the terms >> the term >> that the terms of how the different entities ities can on board and how the financing would be set up. >> But that original MOU it did end right or >> that was completed right that that the the agreement was completed and ready to be executed. >> Yeah.

>> And now so and we're now entering like a newou is that >> well we'll be executing thatou. >> Okay. >> Right. If if they partic if they say 1 million gallons then we'll execute thatou >> with with tri river Sanford.

>> Yeah. Okay. >> Does that make sense? I hope.

Is that confusing? Okay, we'll keep going. All right. Um uh for the you know as I as I stated we moved out of the preliminary engineering into um engineering um earlier we approved the council approved doing the amendment with Hazen um to move forward with a traditional design did build for the transmission line and they are and the booster pump station and the elevated tanks and they're underway working on the design. So uh I think the field survey is almost complet is nearing completion at this point. Um, as far as the treatment plan itself and the intake and raw water, um, pump station, um, we've, uh, when working with the partners and HDR, we decided that the best way to keep this project, um, on schedule, which is to try to bring all the facilities online by 2031, was use, um, progressive design bid

build. And what progressive design build is is you hire the contractor and the engineer together as a team upfront for the whole project. So um and we are in the middle of that. We have for the treatment plan we've already advertised the um the um progressive design build contracts.

We've made the selection and now we're currently negotiating the contract with that team. So, and we will that's one of the items that we'll be bringing to you this fall. Um we're currently um just received the um SOQS for the intake. Um there were eight firms that um came in that submitted on the intake and there were four firms that submitted on the treatment plant.

So, we're currently um starting to our review of the SOQs that have come in. >> What's SOQ >> statement of qualifications? Sorry. Um

the overall schedule I think that's kind of hard to see, but it basically shows you where we are with the permitting, treatment plant, the raw water intake, and the bottom is the transmission. All of which kind of coming online in 2031. Uh, another part of a big part of this of course is executing a non-recreational out grant with the Army Corps of Engineers and state of North Carolina. Um, and there were some delays in with that between the state of North Carolina and the Army Corps.

Um, I won't go into details about that, but we those have been now hammered out and now we're those applications are moving forward. So, um there's also some mitigation that um they'll be working with for North Carolina Parks um to be able to build the intake will be having to close down this the point recreation area for about a three-year period. And that is a one of the the the largest um uh recreational areas on Jordan Lake.

and it's a major boating um location as well as the only sailboat ramp on the lake. So, we're um as you can see here, that's where the raw water pump station is in the intake. So, we'll be having to use um the the park right there on the tip of Vista Point. Um we'll be you what's highlighted in red is the construction area that we believe will be impacting them.

so that we're impacting their revenue um stream. They're impacting um their ability to launch sailboats um as well as impacting the overall site which will there's also an RV site that how they feel that they need to close down. So we're we'll be working out the impacts to them and the compensation for closing for that three-year time period. >> Three years >> three years. So o overall you know the most of the

um we'll be um building on um as part of that compensation will be for the construction of another sailboat launch at another facility. The extra traffic and the other additional manpower that's needed to man those other recreational sites because there'll be higher levels of activities in those sites because this will be closed. Um there's a little expectation that having to close the recreational facility for three years that when it's reopened it's going to look newer and fresher. Um and we've had those discussions with the city manager's office um about that that we feel is a reasonable request.

So we're negotiating the terms of some improvements there both in the um uh the shower facilities and the RVs facilities and some of the at Vista Point. So when it opens up, it'll look like a a fitted new facility. Um the we're also working on an interlocal agreement specifically for the intake itself. And we anticipate that Tri River, AASA, and Durham will

all sign that intake agreement. And why is that important? Because that shows that um hopefully that'll show to the general assembly that this truly is a regionalization, a regional project. And that maybe will allow us to maybe potentially get some grant funding for the construction of the intake itself.

So similar to what the the grant that they gave Tri River for um their water plant expansion. Um so the the next steps is to take those to the various boards this year um and the uh the draft governance uh you know local agreement. So all of that will um come out later this fall. Um the the the governance in Oracle agreement, it defines the role of how partners either own or reserve capacity as as they go forward and come on board. Um Durham is going to be the owner of the facility. So, how are we um how we execute the contracts, how we expand the plant, um the terms of the what upfront

costs that they have to pay us when they're coming on board and and how do they the schedule payments if we're going to finance it with them. So, all of that is kind of covered within that agreement. And as I said, that's been reviewed both by the finance um department and the state attorney's office. Um, as far as the land sale agreement, um, we're just about that close to agreeing on a final price and expect to have that um, later this year.

Um, one thing I did want to just highlight a little bit about, you know, we talk about the project and bringing it into Durham and I did mention early in the presentation that there are impacts to our distribution system. So, while we're we're over the next 20 years, we could be bringing in anywhere from 8 million gallons up to 27 million gallons on any any given day. And that amount of water coming in to the southern part of our system, which which is at a lower elevation, and that water is coming in at a higher um pressure has a big impact on our system. So, we've

had to do a lot of analysis with McKim Creed, who's been our hydraulic modeler. We've been working with them for over a year now. We just finished the final um uh workshop actually yesterday um to look at water age um and how the water is going to be mixed in the system between we have Jordan Lake water coming in. We have treatment coming from the Williams plant and treatment coming from the Brown plant.

How does how do that how does that water mix and does it cause any problems with the system? and also looking at how the how all of that affects all the different pressures in all the individual homes in and around southern Durham. So, um as as I said, we looked at, you know, future demands and how the growth is going to be there as well as part of that modeling effort. Um a lot of the variables we talked about is that, you know, demand both our system demand and is when is A wasa going to come on board. Um uh we're going to have to create what essentially is a southern pressure zone, a new pressure zone in

our distribution system to make sure that the pressures don't get too high to our customers. Most in an area of southern Durham, um we'll have to have some pressure reducing valves to ensure that those customers in that southern pressure zone don't get too high a pressure. Um we have some uh main size, pipe size selections that were done. um and whether or not how we would get water when AASA came on board, how they would get water from our system and where that pipeline would be.

So all of those are some of the variables that were considered. There were 264 different model variations that were done looking at all this from 2030 to 2040 to 2050. Um uh and then it's simplified with or without a do we do tanks or no tanks? , etc. So anyway, um this is a map that just shows when we look at where the existing pressure is

um at at any given home based on the elevation that the homes are in Durham. So as water came in, those dots would change color depending on an impact. So we went through all of this modeling to to make sure that we weren't impacting our customers as we bring these facilities online, not just in 2031, but up through 2050. So um so uh as I said we we just finished the the final modeling results yesterday.

So they'll be working on the report and moving forward from there. So what's coming? So what's coming for council will be the land sale agreement and we think that's going to be um in excess of $4 million. There'll be the intake ILA um which is the agreement about with AASA and Tri River on the intake. There'll be the governance interlocal agreement with Tri River if they're participating in the project. Um we'll have the regional uh

water treatment plant um contract, the progressive design build. We expect the initial first initial phase of the contract to be um $50 million and ultimately that'll with the different phases of the project will you know the overall project cost is around 500 million. Um on the intake that'll we think the initial will be 16 million and then the overall project will be 136 million. 7 million.

So significant amount of money a huge investment for the city. It's a generational project for the city to ensure that we have adequate water supply for the next 20 30 years. And we wanted to ensure that we

have the safety net to make sure that we are getting re we're being um compensated as the other utilities come online with the facility. So with that, I'll open up the questions. >> Director, thank you for the presentation. a major necessary undertaking for our city.

Colleagues, Council Member Cook, you want to get us started? >> Um, yes, I know y'all have put so much work into this, so thank you. Um, I had a couple questions about maybe the cost of phase one. Uh, I'm wondering first of all, uh, if we had thought about a plan where we did not have those partners or if that has like drastically changed the cost for us upfront. Um there there was an expectation with the financial modeling that we've done each year as far as the rates. Um and as things played out, we have adjusted, but we've done the rate modeling with both with partners and without partners just

to see the disparity and what we needed to do. Um and it became more significant as we got closer to this kind of time this this past year or so. Um and certainly as Tri River um when Pittsburgh first turned there was the potential of them talking to Tri River then that really we knew that was going to really shift um financially the the burden back on Durm. So we've done that with the modeling.

We've worked closely with the finance and budget office to to make sure that we're we're minimizing the the the rate impacts. And what you saw with the rates this past spring for this year was that was >> that's right >> reflected what you what I presented here today. >> Yeah, I remember that. >> So nothing's going to change from what you we've projected.

>> Okay. And this this is I just have some financial questions. Sorry if this is like too much, but um so is everything included

in that phase one? Like I'm talking about purchasing the land and the compensation for the Vista Point for their loss and services and all of that. >> All of that's programmed into our financial model through 2031. >> Okay.

And then do we collect interest? >> Yes. >> Okay, good. That was okay.

" Right. >> Right. and the interest on the revenue bonds that the city will have to sell for. >> Okay.

>> So, all all of those costs, >> okay, >> are going are, you know, are going to be recouped eventually. >> Okay. >> Now, if you know I I go back I won't go back, but early on when I first showed the allocations, Chattam County and Pittsburgh had very large allocations, >> right? and Tri River is going to is definitely is going to need that that to help with, you know, their planning for

Pittsboro and Chattam County as for utility. You know, they're catching up with their planning because, you know, that all of those that take over happened recently. So, they're doing the modeling. So we'll know probably early next year or maybe mid sometime next year kind of when they would probably be on board or wanting to increase >> you know capacity at the treatment plant.

>> Okay. >> And and it basically they would notify us at least 5 years in advance that they need the that capacity. They would we would negotiate the terms with them. Durham would expand the plant since it's our plant and then then we reimburse us upfront for the expansion 100%.

>> I see. >> And then they would be charged for the our operation cost and the water that we're producing back to them as an ongoing cost. >> Okay. >> But when they do that, we'll also be recouping our initial investment costs as well.

>> Yes. Okay, that makes sense to me. Thank

you. um you had a slide and and we went through it kind of quickly, but it said the allocations have been separated from the NRO applications and I was just wondering if you could talk about that >> a little more. >> I might ask Sid to step up with talk about that a little bit and thank thankfully Tim is here to talk about financing. >> You're doing great.

Answered all my questions. So [Laughter] >> very reticent to come to this microphone. >> Good afternoon, council. >> Hello.

>> So the >> Oh, yes. Sorry. I'm Sid Miller, uh, assistant director for water management. Um, so the the regulations around Jordan Lake are complicated. Um, fundamentally Jordan Lake is owned by the federal government and the state bought the water supply storage in that lake.

So, the state has its own rules for how it allocates that water supply storage to units of local government in North Carolina. Right. The core in the last 10 years decided it can only have agreements with the allocation holder of the lake which is the state. >> But the state doesn't own and operate water facilities.

Local governments do that. So that means there has to be sub agreements between the state and any unit lo of y unit of local government that wants to build something and operate something. So historically that has only been the towns of Kerry and Apex.

We're breaking new ground literally. And so in the past, the court had never reviewed and approved the state's process for suballocation and now they want to do that and the state is really not happy about that. And so our whole project relies on permitting from the core of engineers. These non-recreational outrant requests are that's what they're called.

So we can't build anything in the lake unless the core of engineers says yeah you can build something in the lake. The core can't tell us that. Has to tell the state that. and the core. So anyway, all our non-recreational outrant requests that

we need from the core of engineers got wrapped up in the mess between the core of engineers and the state of North Carolina. And only until recently in the last two months that the core finally agree, oh, we'll allow you to separate those issues. We will actually look at your non-recreational out grant requests that we actually submitted over a year ago. >> Okay, that is helpful.

>> Yeah, >> the way you walk to the podium makes total sense now. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And if you want to know any more about that, feel free to call me.

>> Wow. Okay. Fascinating. Thank you.

>> Welcome. >> Wow. Okay, >> there's a lot there and he he put it very succinctly. He could have expounded probably 30 minutes on that. >> Yeah, I believe it. Um, my final question is I guess you talked really

briefly about design and stages and I just >> kind of like I mean this is not my area of expertise, but what we what I know that we're seeing is first of all changes in >> in water screening and what is allowed and not allowed. Um, and so we're seeing sort of like things on what we have to produce, but also on the side of technology, um, and how we do our water processing, and I know is changing very rapidly. Uh, and so I was just kind of wondering as y'all are building this facility many years down the line that might incorporate technology that we don't even have yet, like kind of what y'all are doing to to balance >> that. Um, as much as possible, we accommodated that in the design of the treatment plan. So when you look at the footprint of the 77 milliongal treatment plant, you'll actually see footprints for things like um uh RORO um what else did we include, Jeff?

>> Can you come to the mic and talk about just a little bit about what we accommodate? >> There's a lot of acronyms, so I don't want to say them wrong. >> That's okay. So, uh, Jeff Jeff Atkins, some with HDR, the program manager for the Western Intake Partnership.

So, what Don's alluding to is, um, we we have planned for treatment with the regulations and the technologies that are in place today, anticipating that there's going to be change. We already know it's very dynamic with with PAS, for example. And so in order to be able to account for a larger plant, perhaps different regulations, different standards for water quality, um technologies like reverse osmosis, ion exchange, um and different kinds of of technologies which utilize carbon, um granulated activated carbon or powder activated carbon are both ways that we can we can achieve a high level of quality for PAS and other types of of um of chemical. that we may

want to remove in the future that aren't required or even known of today. >> So all all of those have been incorporated into where how the layout of the plant is. So there's space on the plant to accommodate those future processes should the regulations change and we need to bring those future processes online. And as as you mentioned, council member Cook, there could be se technologies in 10 years that we don't even know about that will replace some of those technologies, but there's space on that master planning to accommodate those at a later date.

>> Okay. Thank you. That's helpful. I think those are all my questions.

>> Thank you, Council Member. Council member Baker, you had anything? >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

when you said um Mayor Proto when you said this is major undertaking. I just that's all I can think of with all of this is what an enormous uh project you need we need uh food, water and shelter to survive and and here we are. We're talking about one of the most basic uh human needs which is which is water that's being directly provided by

local government. Um can we just go back to square one? >> Sure. Um and I first of all I want to say you've provided us numerous updates and I appreciate that and I I hope that we can continue that.

Um these are very very informative and helpful. Um and just going back to the explanation of why do we need this? Um why are we doing this? If you could just give us the big picture there again.

>> Okay. Um we have you know with our two water supply lakes both Little River and Lake Mickey. um we we are basically nearing our capacity to be able to provide for growth of the city. So you know and to be able to um without this project we would be in a period probably where we would have to initiate our water shortage response plan which isn't we don't have enough water to meet the demand on a regular basis and almost

maybe even constantly. So, um, we are at the point where that we only have so much water at both of those lakes. So, we need to have another water supply on hand to be able to continue to grow as a city. >> Thank you.

And then, um, we've talked about the intake, we've talked about the site, uh, and the process of development and some of the complications there, closing off recreation space for three years, those kinds of things. Can you talk a little bit about um what we're thinking about regarding the actual treatment plant itself? Um what kinds of considerations are going into it? Uh innovative practices.

Um accessibility if that's a thing. Uh sustainability. Um I'm going to show a little bit of uh naive here, but I know that there's a water treatment plant that's underground with above ground recreation. I'm guessing that's prohibitively expensive. >> Um, but I'm just curious about what kind of thought is going into what uh what

the treatment plan itself is going to look like. >> Certainly. Um, one thing I didn't highlight is, you know, you're all familiar with lead, >> right, for for building structures and that the building is the administrative building is being built to the current city standards, which is gold. um public works projects has a um similar program called envision and it's taking kind of the lead principles and applying it to public works type projects.

We embraced that envision for this project and there's a number of criteria and we'd happy to bring back and talk about the different criteria that are in there and they're very expansive and across the community talking about access talking about how you're impacting the community. What kind of improvement is the facilities um going to bring to the community? So, some of our out um our outreach when we're out in Chattam County, we were listening to what were their needs, you know, as we build the large diameter water lines up

and down the roads in Chattam County, which ones were going to be on their open space and trails plan, you know, where do they any road widenings that are needed? Um how about access better access to the recreational facility? There's a on C4th road which is right up the street is a high school that was built after we started looking at this project. You know, how do we impact them and how do we incorporate maybe any improvements that would help that community?

So, the envision process um is very broad and we are it's um bronze, silver, gold, platinum and we are currently at gold nearing platinum. So um uh so it and it's a very um rigorous process to submit all the documentation because you have to submit it from the beginning of what you've done prior to the project starting through design through construction. You know what are you doing at the construction site?

You know are you recycling? You know how are you minimizing dust? How you minimizing traffic? So, it's very broad, very comprehensive, and be happy to happy to bring that back and talk about that the next time we give a project update about that program.

>> That that'd be great. Um, once again, uh, thank you so much for your work, for your updates. Um, and look forward to learning more as it progresses. >> Great.

Thank you. Thank you, Council Me Council. >> Thank you so much for the update. Um, and, um, why I'm always so impressed with what we do with water in the city of Durham.

Uh it's one of the things we do uh best. Um is there is there a world where they they don't need the intake, right? because they've already the communities that you know Pittsburgh and Chadam and >> Aasa >> AASA right is there is because they're you know not going in on phase one which I understand there's a plan like okay well this is how we bring them online and these are the costs for that >> right >> is there a world where like the state

gives uh the Sanford plant the tri river plant even more state money and so then they don't need our intake like have we thought about that within our financial modeling Right. I mean c certainly that's a that is a risk >> but um you know there's you know they have not indicated that to us at this time right there's a limited amount of space that they have to expand their plant and you know their plan is they have a river intake. So ho how much the state would allow them to increase their river intake especially knowing at this time knowing that they have allocations in Jordan Lake and certainly increasing um uh river allocations certainly you know part of the outreach we've always done through the the Jordan Lake partnership and now the Triangle part water partnership is do a lot of outreach with the downstream utilities down to Fedville all the way down to Wilmington keeping them ab breast about

what we're doing up in the triangle But certainly they're very, you know, all of their concerns are, you know, are is there enough water still coming down the Capefare River that they can pull water out of the river. So we we're continuing to do that. So there's there's there's a lot there. Of course, that could be a risk if but we don't believe that'll at this juncture.

We don't believe that'll happen. Wasa um they know they don't need to use the water right now, but they're afraid of losing their allocation. So that's why they want to sign in on the intake ILA to show that they're committed into Jordan Lake to the state because they're fearful of if they didn't um participate in some way that the next round of allocation for that remaining allocation that you're not participing in anything. you're not using it for 20, 30 years.

We have these other communities that need it now. They would lose their allocation. >> Thank you for that. And to your so go it goes back to your earlier point that the uh Jordan Lake like the the quality of

that water source is clearly better than the Tri River because so it so some of that also then plays in like what people have access to and what other water sources they have access to may not be as high quality and so it might make sense for them, >> right? and the and the cost of for them to expand their facilities versus the cost of right >> paying for the facilities where we are where we already have like the intake we're building not to the ultimate size we're putting in not all the pumps and not all the electrical equipment. So we're we're not there's some things you just have to build to ultimate like the tunnel out to the middle of the intake and things like that for the initial investment, but we're just like we're only building 20 million gallons a day in the treatment plant. Ultimately could be 77 million, but we're also scaling back what's the inside the the the raw water intake pumps pumping station so we can add pumps and intakes later on.

>> Okay. Thank you so much. Those are all my questions. >> Thank you, Councilman. Council member Freeman, did you have anything?

>> Uh thank you. uh really appreciate the presentation. I would say that I'm excited because I get to share this with some of the leaders across the state in a couple weeks and I think it's really um innovative the way that Tri River has come together um to try and I guess pull the funds to do this work. And so I I'm happy that we're leading and I I did have one question.

Are we locked into this model that you're sharing today? this this model scenario >> as far as >> as far as as like does this became become the the one way because you said there were like 276 different models. >> Oh, for for the for the um excuse me for the um improvements within our system. >> Yes, >> we we pretty much settled on that. But once again, it's a it's a 20-year projection. So in a couple once um the whip project comes online and then we'll have initial in we'll be able to have actually have

real information with our collection system. You know you model it but then you have to look at did the modeling reflect what's actually happening >> and we'll have that and then potentially growth patterns might change a little bit. So we'll be changing maybe some of that and tweaking it. That's why we're constantly updating our master planning.

>> That's good. And then I was just going to say that it's it's really helpful to see uh the breakdown as far as I was looking at the um all the variables and I wanted to to just ask what would be I guess what is ex exactly is the deciding factor in the main size is it just like are you using population growth based on today or >> uh we you know we 2020 I think we launched our long-range water resources plan. Um it got put on pause with COVID because the comp plan got delayed as well. So um once the comp plan was completed, the Durham comprehensive plan, we were able to then incorporate the Durham comprehensive

plan into our long range water resources plan and um and that's looking at demand across the whole city where development is going to happen, how much water we're going to need. And as those plans evolve, we'll be updating that long range water supply plan and and using that as an input into our modeling and what we need and our capacity. So that's a kind of an ongoing effort that we'll continue just keep doing as we go along. >> And then I noted um you indicated that the contract was at about what is that 152 million.

Uh, how do you I guess how do you how do you foresee I like I don't know how you're going to be able to figure it out, but how do you foresee the impacts of tariffs um on that cost? >> It's very hard to hard to know. Um we've it's been talked about a lot and um and also just delivery. Um, one of the

things that we are trying to do, which is also one of the decision- making that we went into the progressive design build, is um to do some early out purchasing because as costs escalate for some of the more expensive um uh pieces of process equipment um that we could maybe order that early. And one of the things we talked about and questioning with all of the the different uh uh combination of firms when they came in um was you know we would like to do that. How are you going to handle that? And you know how would they store that material and how would they once it's stored how would they do the necessary maintenance to make sure that when it was installed we would have the the correct warranties for that. So, um, so a lot of that is hopefully we'll be able to mitigate some of that because, you know, it's 2025 and >> online there's going to be a lot of potential change in impacts to the construction costs. So, we're going to try to to mitigate that as much as

possible to buy as much early on as we can. >> And I I would just like to draw that back to some of the conversations we're having earlier. If Tim could just say, would that be included or could that be included in something like a carryover? >> Mo most of the funding is out of the CIP, so the funds are naturally once they're approved by council, they're carried over.

I just wanted to make sure that the the full council understands like that's the type of thing that that will come forward and making sure we don't leave out the impacts, you know, acknowledging that tariffs are here. Yes. >> And that we're making adjustments based on the needs that we have for the future. So, don't want to leave that out even >> that that was actually one of the questions that we had during this selection processes.

>> Yeah. Thank you. >> Is how they how would how what would they were going to do to to minimize costs if these kind of came to that. >> Thank you.

Thank you council council member Rrist. >> Thank you member Tim. Thank you Mr. Greley for the presentation as always and I want also want to thank the

manager for for bringing this forward to the council. This is really important to know about this. I know this is pretty technical stuff. It gets um pretty scientific in a hurry but really appreciate you sort of like sharing this with us.

Um and you know we had this conversation earlier about about community and sort of you know sort of feelings about these major projects that they're sort of not getting delivered on. I think this is the flip side of the coin. This is like a major major investment, a major project that most folks have no idea we're doing. But the fact that we're thinking about this and investing in this major major essentially public works project has really um is really a credit to your department and to the leadership of the manager.

So want to thank you for that. Um the question I had and you may have answered this already, but I know that in addition to PAS, there's concern about 14 deoxane, right? And I think there was a story on the radio just the other day about that in the in the Haw River of that whole watershed. So I imagine so that so you're so when you're thinking about water quality and how you gonna mitigate that.

So 14 deoxxand is like >> this is included. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And is that and so the you mentioned earlier potentially having

potentially reverse osmosis that you would engage in to to uh to um to mitigate PAS. Is that the same same strategy for 14 deoxin or is that a different what's the I'll I'll point to Jeff because once again that's it's hard to keep everything in my head and he's got a little bit more time to think about it when as he walks to the podium. Um so for 14 dialane uh part of the I didn't hear the report but part of the way I've heard about it in the media uh in the last few years has been Pittsboro is downstream of some sources of 144 dioxane in Burlington and further upstream >> Greensboro right now >> and um and so the the treatment facility you know we've in we've um invested some time and and regular monitoring of the lake to understand what it looks like when you take the source that's concentrated in the Haw River, but you also have other ways that water gets into Jordan Lake that are less that that

have lower levels of 14 dioxide. So overall, it's diluted in the lake. >> But we do have treatment um uh embedded in the um in our treatment facilities now uh not requiring reverse osmosis, but things like ozone and filtration that can address the levels of 14 dioxane in the water that the plant produces. Great.

Thank you. Appreciate that. And then so Mr. Really for the for the council, I think you you listed a whole bunch of contracts that are essentially going to be coming to us in the next year or so.

So in addition to that, anything else we can do to support you in this project? >> Um just your continued support and which has been tremendous. I this is a >> kind of as I said, it's a generational type project, major under undertaking for the city. a huge investment especially since we've got lots lost some partners along the way and but we've continued on so just can your continued support which is you know been huge so thank and thank you all >> and again thanks for the for I know that

we've like increased water rates slightly right to begin paying for all this so like so the the again the strategic planning the foresight is all very much appreciated and uh we look forward to continuing to update so thank you >> thank you colleagues Mr. Mayor, you want the final word on this? >> Thank you for the presentation. Uh, thank you colleagues for the u the rich conversation today.

Um, I've had a lot of things I've been managing in and outside of the meeting. So, I'm grateful to Mayor Pro Tim for leading us today and um, yeah, I'm I'm all good. This is I'm looking forward to the uh the the amusement park that's going to go with this. uh the water park that's going to go with this um intake project um out there.

So, we're going to replace the recreation with the additional component to this. So, looking forward to that. >> All right. We'll work on that.

>> Appreciate it, >> director. Thank you so much. >> Thank you all. >> Good to see you. You'll be happy. You

know, I haven't gotten the votes yet to take Miss Lake as a new city hall, but uh still working on it. So, enjoy that office, buddy. >> You're welcome anytime. >> Thank you.

Thanks so much colleagues. That has we've exhausted our published agenda for today. Um rather than settling the agenda now I know there were a couple of other matters that we talked about at the beginning of the meeting. Council member um Cook, you had a matter but if you don't mind, I'm going to defer to the manager to do his first and then we can uh come to council members.

The manager said he had a couple of items as well on other matters and then uh I'll turn to you. >> All right. Thank you uh Mayor Portm. I appreciate it.

So, uh, three quick items. Uh, the first is a major oversight on my part that I wish to apologize for. Uh, it was an oversight, uh, from me to not point out at the beginning of the meeting and recognize our new permanent uh, director of communications, Amy Bla. >> Here, here. Uh, as as council uh knows,

Amy has been uh a fixture for the city, a fixture in this department, and been serving as the interim role uh since uh since Beverly Thompson's retirement in June. uh and so I'm used to seeing her over there, but uh that uh uh does not uh decrease the importance of noting the occasion of Amy being uh named to this role officially as I captured in my message to each of you yesterday. Um Amy has been a critical part of this department's success and growth over the years. Uh but uh despite the fact that Amy is a a an internal candidate, I think some of the most exciting things we vetted with Amy before making this decision are uh her vision for uh growing the breadth and the touch of this department uh of leaning into I think new and as of yet unknown uh communication tools and strategies. Uh I think I've had conversations with many of you about uh your thoughts about the

fact that it, you know, it is just becoming increasingly challenging and complicated, but uh all the more necessary to get great messaging into the uh hands of our residents. And I am confident that Amy is up to that challenge. So I want to welcome and congratulate Amy uh and recognize her in front of you all. I'm really excited to see where she's going to bring us.

Thank you, Amy. stand. Stand up. >> Thank you.

Uh Amy's going to do a great job. So, that was item one. Uh item two, I just wanted to note uh you may have uh picked this up on your agenda that you do not have any land use items. Uh there is an utility extension agreement, but no zonings or reszonings. Uh which caught all of us a little bit by surprise on the administration. Uh I wanted to highlight for you that uh in discussing that with director Young uh she noted that for for many years dating back to COVID we have been uh we have had a backlog of planning items for council's review and that items that had cleared the planning commission uh were

then uh queued up for slots on the city council's agenda. uh that backlog has been cleared and as a result we are now tracking along with the agenda of the planning commission because the planning commission also took a July break like council did. Uh we are at that point in the workflow that the items that that were that there were no items coming out of the planning commission. But I wanted to highlight for that for you because I think for some time that has been a concern.

I know the development community has expressed concern to council about the length of the process. So I I didn't want it to pass uh that uh that we are at a at a place where that that backlog has been cleared. And then finally uh I've got a a slide up in front of you. So, uh, I I met with each of you in my one-on- ones through the month of August, uh, and had conversations with you about, uh, ironically, I think we talked a good bit earlier today, more transparency, uh, more frequent updates, getting projects

in front of council, uh, and, uh, so I got your feedback uh, about the first projects that you would like to see highlighted in front of council. Had a number of questions about when they would be coming back. So, I just wanted to uh prepare this overview for you uh and present and let you know when these are coming. Uh the Durham Rail Trail project, an update on that project will be on your October 9th, 2025 work session.

Uh the Durham Athletic Park feasibility study is scheduled to come forward on your November 6th, 2025 work session. Uh I think this may be up for some discussion today, but uh the the staff uh will be believe significant uh updates to provide on the West Chapel Hill 505 West Chapel Hill uh redevelopment process on the 20th. Um I am uh I want to make some come back to that one and make some comments before we close. Uh the uh 2024 bond referendum projects uh we will be one year from that referendum at the end of a October,

early November. We're planning uh an overview on the progress of implementing the blond the bond that will be coming to council and then uh an update since I created this slide. The serby wetland project update will actually be on your next agenda on September uh 18th for an overview and update. So it's going to be sooner than when I put this slide together.

I also wanted to mention uh knowing that trails were on the conversation today that there is a planned update of all city tail trail projects going to the rack uh at their meeting on October 8th. Uh and that same presentation comment will be offered to do. We don't have that scheduled with DOSS yet, but we envisioned that would be October or November. Um I do want to come back and talk.

There's been a number of you have brought back to me a conversation about 505 West Chapel Hill. Uh so I wanted to to clarify. Uh several of you have mentioned correctly that in your work session in June uh you asked that we come back as soon as possible after the break within the month of August to have further conversations. Obviously, we did not do that. Uh we

have not scheduled that because we don't have uh we don't have decision points uh that responded to council's direction uh at the June work session that would be ready to brief. And so we uh my proposal was that we come back to council as quickly as possible once we've got results from those conversations with uh NC preservation uh and also from staff efforts on um on the master planning that that we took forward. Uh I've heard some comments from council members that that uh they felt like an interim conversation would be worthwhile to further discuss whether or not uh affordable housing is something that should be underway. Right now we have been approaching that affordable housing component as part of the master planning process. Um but obviously I want to make it clear that the the agendas belong to the council. if you would like to add this item at a sooner date, I just would want to set expectations that I don't feel like we have a lot to report out,

but that we are working uh uh with with intentionality about being prepared uh for the next update. I also wanted to let you know that uh we will be there will be a column in tomorrow's city connect updating the public on the process of 505 West Chapel Hill. So, there is public communication going out tomorrow. So, I wanted to leave that open as several council members have raised that with me and certainly want to be in a position to respond to council direction if you would like an earlier conversation on that project.

Uh, that's the update I intended to offer. Happy to answer any questions related to that. >> Thank you, uh, Mr. Manager.

Appreciate you. Um, Council Member Cook, I'll yield to you. >> Thank you. Um, so I have two matters that I'd like to bring forward. Uh, one, as the manager has stated and already knows, is a a sooner conversation on 505. Um, I know that we talked about and I understand the the reasonings for not having the meeting in August or having

that on the agenda in August. Uh, but this is uh November 20th is is almost 3 months away uh from now. and and I do want to make sure that if there's any clearer guidance to be given before then that we are not exhausting staff resources um and ensure that we are sort of all in agreement and given guidance. So I would ask that that be put on um I've talked to a couple of y'all about this but not the next work session but the work session after which still gives us a large chunk of time um because we have a an off week.

So that would be is that right? The 9th the 9th of October. Um so that is my proposal which would be about five or six weeks before the presentation. Understanding that of course staff will be ready to do a full presentation at that time.

Did you want to raise your other go? >> Just clarity. What What do we What do you ask for conversation to do what? >> Um for a couple of things.

The first is that we did say that we were going to bring it back a lot earlier and so that was the expectation that was put out for the public. Um and the second thing is that uh we had a lot of conversation that day and didn't end up giving a whole lot of guidance. And so if we do want to ensure that we're not kind of like sitting on that lack of decision and and staff sort of going in the direction that they can best go with kind of like how non I don't feel like we were very clear. And so I what I don't want to happen is that staff kind of goes down a process of putting a lot of time and effort into doing something that's um maybe not exactly aligned or if we can give clearer guidance in the meantime that would be more efficient for staff time. Um I want to have that conversation as well.

>> I think my only thing is I I went back and watched it and you're right, we we didn't give a lot of clear in instruction, but I think that's probably because the process has already been done. So, I think I need clarity on are we going back and rewriting this whole thing again? Are we going to do the community engagement component again? Are we wiping the initial priorities all over which means we have to go back to do community engagement again?

Um I and I think I need to understand if we're having a conversation is to have a conversation or we like what what is the guidance beyond what's already been done? I think that's what I need clarity on. >> Yeah. I mean, and I think that that's part of the of the issue is that we sort of left it with this idea that we were segmenting off just the Milton Smalls building. We had a lot of conversation about affordable housing and moving forward in that at that time, but there wasn't really a conversation about whether we'd like to see possibilities of segmenting off something for affordable housing or if we wanted to be thinking about moving forward with affordable housing and also looking at

the project as a whole. Um, and so what we've come back or what what staff is planning to come back for us is is a master plan sort of like a highlevel uh statement. But we already have done this process as you've brought up several times. And so I don't really want to sit for 3 months and and have another master plan drawn up if that's not really going to help us make decisions.

And so my my question is going to be can we get a little bit more clarity? Can we get a little bit more detail on what we want staff to be doing and bringing forward for us so that we can make decisions a little bit more quickly? >> All right, Mr. Manager, question.

Are you all looking for us to design this? Like what what do you exactly need from council that hasn't already been done? >> Uh we don't have a request of council. Uh we uh I agree that based on conversations I've had with uh several of you individually uh there seems to be uh there seems to be

some disagreement about how much or how uh independently we should be looking specifically at affordable housing right now. uh as as I've shared with many of you individually and and comfortable saying publicly that at this point affordable housing shows up in two different places in the direction that that I I believe we got at the June 5th work session. One is that should our conversations with NC Preservation open opportunities for the Milton Small Building to be repurposed as affordable housing that that is certainly something we feel the council wants us to fully explore and and highlight options for you there. Secondly, as we bring different staff resources to the table to create sort of a highlevel master plan or master plan concepts for your consideration obviously on the site that that there is a extremely clear expectation that affordable housing be a part of that

I have received comments from some council members around whether or not independent of those two things there are conversations going on directly with or or being solicited directly with affordable housing developers or entertaining future conversations. And at this point, my response has been no, we did not perceive that to be part of the conversation. My my my opinion of re-watching the meeting is that was discussed and that I did not feel like we got direction. I welcome clarity from council if that needs to be the direction and I and I think should you have another conversation.

I would seek again to see if we have a consensus on council or a majority on council that wants that to be the case. So >> I have a question for our colleagues that were here before the four of us. So Freeman Middleton and Taviro based on what I mean the three of I'm sorry the four of us who were not here. um the three of you all that were here based on the conversation that we're

discussing now, how is this different than what's already happened? So, if I might, Mr. Mayor, I I think we're doing it again. We we are we're getting into mission creep again.

I I would I would just remind my colleagues that we got here because when we reached a decision point based upon the five priorities that we had agreed upon, we at the last minute changed the sale of the land. We we we we and and that punted and that added more time to the decision point. The last meeting that we had, the June meeting, as I recall, I I there's no I don't really see it as ambiguous. We did have a lot of conversation, but the f where we landed was um looking at breaking out the the Milton Smalls building, which could be purposed for affordable housing or could be purposed for other things, but breaking that out and looking at um

a master plan. And I think we also talked about perhaps the exploration of some interim programming as well to combat blight. So we were clear on that. What's happened is some of us have had conversations with um activists and groups, many of which I'm a member of that some of us feel beholden to and we are and and and and I don't want to confuse the conversation we've had subsequent to that meeting and use that to cast kind of uh confusion about what we said that day.

I was clear what we came with on that day. What's happened is some of us have had subsequent conversations which is fine. Um and and my inclination, my my my recommendation would be we've charged the staff with from that day any conversations we want to have about augmenting or doing anything. I think we should have to give the staff opportunity to do what we've already asked them to do at that June meeting and bring >> just before that like before we were on

council which y'all did in 2019 20 >> we had yeah we had the five priorities which which the the and y'all remember the five priorities those five priorities are what informed the RFPs that came back. Those RFPs were kept fidelity with those five priorities when we were prepared to vote on one of those RFPs which I contend then I contended then I contend now would have given basically everybody what they wanted we would have had the building had affordable housing the contention was rather than sell it which would have given us the financial windfall which was one of our priorities we decided to lease that was the trigger point which sent it back to the staff so before that it was the five priorities that that informed the I see I'm finishing that that informed the RFP for me the master plan. Um, if if if we move forward and affordable housing is always going to be at 505 West Trap Hill Street, that's non-negotiable. If we

move forward with doing affordable housing first and now, I I would just caution us that now becomes a neighborhood. The master plan is a plan. So, when folk move into that neighborhood and years later we tell them, well, this was really part of a master plan. we're going to put a hotel here now or something like that.

And this is the beauty of master plans. You you you advertise what you're going to do at the beginning. You do it in one fell swoop because those folk who now live in that neighborhood, they will be a neighborhood and they may not want the master plan at that point. They may not care what we talked about four or five years prior to that.

So the master plan now becomes, you know, a plan. Um, and the whole idea of if if we're going to do the the affordable housing piece then first, then we need to remember that the master plan is just that, a plan. And I would want the voices of the people that live there um to be honored when we're going to, you know, do their um thing.

Well, you can breathe. This is my first time really talking at all today, so I've been very patient. Go ahead, Mr. Bear.

>> I I I I think I'm just It's still I'm >> Yeah. Well, go ahead. >> He was I think trying to It wasn't just the five items. I mean, the five goals are the five goals, but the you're trying to get to some of the history pre when you were on council.

Is that >> right, which I I think the five So, you guys came you did a it was the process of getting to those >> the process was there was an there was a community engagement back in 2017 at this point, right? And so, those were the five priorities that the mayor promises identified. There was a there was a decision by council. It's that the original >> uh entity retracted.

Right. So like I think that that's a missed point. I mean the reason group >> Yeah. It was the Fallon Group. We were going to sell the land because there was it was it was there was the value was good enough at that time, right? That

was the initial economic premise. That economic premise does not exist in the same way. And we saw that in subsequent proposals. The initial response did not require city subsidy to do anything.

If I'm not mistaken, the economic headwinds for many reasons completely changed. And that is why I think we have struggled. Now the mayor prom is correct that subsequent proposals there have been other things. But in the fall of 2019, if I'm not mistaken, a decision was made by council, a vote was taken, a group was decided on, and a proposal was decided on as well.

And that proposal fell through not because of any decision or lack of decision or changing of a decision by a council, right? Post that. Yes, correct. There have been decisions that have uh changed and waffled, but we would have had a building built by this point if that initial developer hadn't pulled out of the out of the deal. So, I just want to correct that that so that the folks are

are clearly aware. No, there was a decision, there was a vote, there was a process. Um, >> to just to the whole conversation, >> I am open to having, and I said this to Council Member Cook before, I am open to having a conversation. I have also said because during my one-on-one with the city manager, we had this conversation.

I want to go watch that meeting. I need time to go watch that meeting. Um, to I'm, you know, folks were saying there was some clarity, there wasn't some clarity. It's what I said to Council Member Cook.

Council member Cook at our subsequent work session if I don't feel like to your point that it was there wasn't clear direction I'm open to having that conversation on the 9th if I like so I'm not prepared to provide you an answer and I wasn't prepared to really provide an answer before the work session. So that's where I'm at. Um I've also met with advocates and that what I have said to advocates is I would raise it with the city manager. I have done my due diligence on that part. My next step is to watch a meeting and see what was the guidance or

not. And um that is where I am as an individual council member. So um I'm not prepared to answer your request. I would like to wait till the next work session uh which is the 18th right I think.

And then open to having something on the 9th um if I feel like yeah there is something we need to provide staff or it's clear where we landed. If I could just respond quickly to Council Mos because I don't think anything you've said is controversial. I agree with everything you said. The only thing I would I would I I think warrants clarification is that the decision um not to sell was not an economic based decision.

It was it was predicated upon the notion that in order for us to maintain control and to get what we actually want in terms of affordable housing that we needed to own it. That was not an economic argument. It was an argument based upon the belief that the only way we can assure that we'll be affordable housing is that if we own the land that that was the reason for for for pulling it um at that at that last meeting. Um so I just want to clarify that. Are you

>> Yeah, >> actually can we >> I have a I just have a question for the manager. So if you had any input on the conversations happen. Yeah. So my question is just what what would we expect for the meeting on the no the uh November 20th?

What what would what would we expect? >> Sure. So I I would hope by then that we could provide some context. So, so comments were made at the June 5th work session on behalf of or by preservation North Carolina that a significant factor in the rehabilitation of the Milton small building has not been part of our consideration because we were talking to uh master plan master developers and not talking to historic preservation developers. They they made an overture to the council that um that should the council be interested, they would work with staff to identify more refined proposals for that building uh that we

could then vet I think with our partners uh HRNA being one of the our our critical partners uh to to come back and give you an assessment if we if we believe that to be credible that that portioning off the Milton Small Building going straight great for a proposal on that building. So I I think by November 20th we could provide significant context for that. We're having conversations both directly with NC Preservation with groups who have worked with NC preservation and with our private consultants all of which we are trying to coales into our our typical sort of hopefully unbiased analysis for you as to is this really something that's different and meaningfully different than what we've experienced in our prior efforts. So, I think we'd have an answer for you on that. Then, I think we would be able to share with you concepts and ideas from your professional staff uh around what a physical plan for that site might look like if we were to rather than a master developer say, "Here's what I want to do

" If we were to say, you know, here are ideas and uses based on your comp plan, based on conversations you've had, based on feedback from the public we've heard, based on the priorities that the council has said. So, I'd like to bring back what I still think would be a highlevel, not a highly specific master plan for the property. And then as a subset of that, that would include concepts for activating the space because I think what was central to our June FA 5 conversation is the staff recommendation was that based on prior conversations from council, we did not think doing anything quickly on that site uh was advisable given the development climate. So I think you heard that and said yes.

We gave some options. Well, I think we heard you say yes, but again, I'm open for you revising that or or telling us we heard that wrong. Um, so we would bring some ideas for what it might look like to have interim uses on that site. So, I think that is what we feel could be ready in November. Um, any meeting you

have prior to that, I'm very comfortable with us sharing what we know to date in all of those areas. I just am not comfortable saying that work would be complete sooner than that November date. And I'm going to invite DCM Propes who is leading most of this effort to see if I have over or understated any of those uh summaries. >> Um Gina Propes and Bose's very very rarely wrong, but I will just add that um there are meetings underway right now. Tomorrow there's a meeting with preservation um the preservation staff as well. So the work is while it's not completely visible that this work is going on as along with interventions with um parks and recck planning department and we're also meeting with our new office of economic and workforce development director who's who's new to the who's new to us now to talk about those interventions um of this space that could be short-term maybe long-term come back with um cost proposals especially as we look at what is or isn't going to happen in the marketplace

in the next year or so and we're aware one option may be that we will still be holding on to it and doing things and um to activate the space, minimize the blight and um hold on to our asset and use it while um other activities are underway. >> Thank you. So basically you're you're investigating what are the potential you know opportunities on the site. Um that's an ongoing process. by November 20th there'd be a very high level here's kind of what we've explored here's the direction and and some some options potentially some options >> yes >> um and then as part of that uh do do you anticipate and and was this something that you heard potential partitioning of this larger other than just the Milton small building partitioning as one of those options >> possibly Yeah. Okay.

Okay. >> Those are my questions. >> Let me uh just go to Council Member Freeman first. >> Thank you.

I was just going to say that u I tend to agree with Council Member Caviierro. I'm not opposed to the conversation, but I will say I will not be here on the 9th and um I'd like to be here for the conversation. So, I'd hope you find a different day. And then I also add there's a long laundry list of all of the documentation that's occurred for this project on the website and I encourage everyone to take a look at that. um it's extensive because I think in 2017 the decision was made and then in 2019 the building became empty and I know there was a lot of um activity about what should happen with the building uh externally and that activity has continued and so I have not met with anyone ex um following up on this from our meeting in June and so it's interesting but I do want to make sure that the historic preservation piece is

investigated to the fullest and whether it's affordable housing or not, I want to be clear like I want that proc process to continue and be done. I will say that there's not much difference between uh the 9th of October and November 20th except an election. And so I'm open to whatever uh needs to happen um whether we have the conversation beforehand or not. I've been an advocate for petitioning from the very beginning.

that was I was in the minority and went with the majority on moving forward with acidge in the beginning. So, um if we were to move forward with partitioning, I would be excited to see a piece of it, you know, taken off for um affordable housing or in the Milton small building. But I think until the historic preservation piece is explored, we won't know whether that is. I don't think it's a like I don't think it's a problem if it does if you have affordable housing in both. But I do want to make sure that staff is focused on getting getting what they need to get

so that on October 20 on November 20th we can make a decision on whether or not we're moving forward with preservation North Carolina or not. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Um I forgot who I don't know who had >> Yeah.

I just want to be really clear about what I'm asking for. So, and this is like we're pretty much doing it now, which is not what I what I wanted was for us to be prepared to do it in a few weeks. Um, I don't want to rehash what happened at the last meeting. I'm not interested in doing that again.

And if we had the right takeaways or if we didn't, like, I'm not interested in that. I don't feel beholden to anyone I've met with. Um, what I want is for when this comes up again in late November, which is quite some time away, for us to have the information that we need to be able to make a decision. And so if there to that extent if there are more things that we would like to see from staff um and and I will say this is more detail than I had understood was coming in front of us in November. So price prices around activation and site activation I didn't know that that part

was going to be coming before us. So that is already more information. Um, but if there if we want to have specific information on like costs around moving forward on an affordability piece and these other things, like I just want us to go ahead and have that information ready so that we can make a decision in a more efficient, economical way. That's my only point in bringing this up now is not to like make any major decisions.

But I also like I don't want to have to redo the plans. We've already redone the plans a million times. And so if we are going to go a different route, I feel like we should talk about it sooner rather than later instead of letting all the time slip by and then not getting the information that we need to make the decision. So that's my point in bringing it.

>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um, yeah, Council Member Cook, I I I hear you on the urgency. I feel the same pressure, you know, that we sort of this is one of these things that's sort of taken so long.

So I I sense the urgency. I also agree with you that like like I'm not interested in sort of going back and rehashing what's happened in the past. We need to move forward on this project. Um I so I so to have a meeting in

October and then one again in November may not be as efficient I think. But I again I I sense the urgency. If we can do this before the 20th of November, let's do that. Right.

If the staff is saying they can't do it before then, then we may be stuck with that. But I'd say let's do it as soon as we can. I think what you were asking for in part was just an update, right? A way to sort of find out more and give input.

Right. So, um, if there if staff is if what staff is saying is we'll have information and proposals and options to really look at and to give um, guidance on on the 20th, I think that's a productive conversation to have. If we can have that sooner, all the better. If not, let's do it on the 20th.

So, yeah, proton, if I go to you, since we're talking about that, that's that's exactly what I was going to say. Um, and I Yes, there there's an election between then and there. I don't really care about that. For me, it's the information.

I don't want to have a conversation just to have a conversation. I want to make sure we have all of the information prepared. And so, I'm I'm along the same line. What I want to make sure the next time

we have this conversation, as that conversation happens, we are making a decision on where we're going or, you know, or at least determining the next meeting to make a decision, a hard decision to go forward with. I don't want to talk just to talk. We've been doing a lot of that. That's why I asked for the institutional history on it.

So, um, let me go to middle. >> Thanks. Just real quickly, one, yeah, I don't want to rehash the last meeting either. The only reason that I think is operational is because there seem to be some suggestion that there was ambiguity at the last meeting.

That's why we're talking about what actually happened. So, that's rehashing. Um, and secondly, I for me, and to council member Cook's point, the more that November 20th meeting, that's what it's going to do for me. that's going to give me the information to have um to to to weigh options because for me I even if we if we wanted to do a standalone um affordable housing piece I'm I'm not

going to support building affordable housing brand new apartments and when they look out their window they see a blighted Milton Smalls building. I mean, to me, what what is absolutely critical is the disposition of that building first because, you know, if if it's still looking the way it is and we're building affordable housing, who wants to live in a neighborhood like that where that's where they're looking out the window? So, that that that highlevel um presentation from the staff on November 20th is the jump off point for me to do exactly what you you've suggested. That will give me at least the starting point for what it looks like to break off that building.

what if if we're going to do a standalone piece, what will we be doing and what will the neighborhood look like if we do that? So, for me, that November 20th meeting accomplishes that all that we've said for me. So, >> Council Member Cook, do you feel with the information that staff has provided? I I hear what Council Member Ris said.

I think staff has heard it clearly. Um if if they can come sooner, please come sooner. But now that you've had that

kind of update that there's more information than maybe you initially thought, can we just like if they can come sooner, great. If not, can we just say it's going to happen on November 20th? Would you feel comfortable with that? >> Yeah, I absolutely feel comfortable with the time frame.

I just want to make sure that the level of detail for us to actually make a decision is before us. And previously, the only words I've heard are high level, high level, high level. And I've just now heard, oh, we'll actually look at portioning it off. We'll actually, and I hadn't heard that before.

And so I don't know. I don't I don't know exactly what we're going to get because those >> that those words don't feel very descriptive to me. So that's been my only concern is just that we we provide guidance so that when we get here in November and we have the preservation piece and we have every we we would have all of the pieces in front of us that we need. >> Staff feel like they've heard from council what we're hoping for that presentation whether it happens November 20th or sooner. Well, just because of the the again the the conversations about how much detail or how much isn't, you know, I think we will be prepared to vet for council and analyze for council

the the offer or claims made by preservation Durham. So I I am describing that as high level because that will not be you will not have a development proposal to vote on. You will not be looking at proposals. So I I have described that as a highle overview.

But I do think, you know, we will be in a position to say this seems like a viable option if council's choice is to subdivide. And so then you could give us that direction, say yes, pursue a development proposal. I I do think I want to be clear. I do think the master plan will be very high level.

So I I don't I just in this question of what will be actionable, I I would rather underpromise and overd deliver than leave any of you with a notion that there will be, you know, very specific action items on the 20th because I think what you asked us for is go talk to NC preservation and see if this seems viable. So I think that that's what I took as our direction. Um, so I just to council members Cook's concerns about whether or not there we will be ready

for action on the 20th. I don't want to overpromise that and say yes. I do think all of the detail that Gina provided will is under that umbrella of we hope to inform your next steps. Whether or not there are next steps on the table at the 20th, I I don't want to commit to that.

I'm not sure you're comfortable with us committing to that. >> Can you keep going? >> Yeah. So, do you feel based on that?

I'm just because you're the one who brought it, so I just want to >> Yeah. I mean, I I'm not I feel like we're talking in circles. Like, I don't feel like I've gotten the answer that I want. Like, will we have tangible things to look at and make a decision outside of the preservation piece?

And it sounds like maybe no. I don't think it will. And >> and so like that is what that's my been my only request is like we're going to get this preservation piece. I understand the timing on that.

Sounds like it might not come back to us before November. That's totally fine. I want to be able to have the information when I make a decision, but I also want to have some other pieces, too, so that we can talk about on the November 20th meeting, oh, are we going to segment off the Milton Small Building? Are we also going

to segment off for affordability? Are we like, or are we going to keep it all together? And are we going to move forward on one piece first? Are we going to phase it?

Like, these are decisions that I'd like to make sooner rather than later. And I just don't feel like I'm I'm I I understand that that information will come in front of us at that time. >> I I think that's to be determined. I I mean I I listen I share your frustration but we don't have any prop the the decision point that ship has sailed when we had the RFPs we said we're not going to deal with peoples anymore I think we have to resolve ourselves that we have set the clock back on this project um and November the short answer to your question is no I don't think we're going to maybe well the easy answer is maybe I mean it depends upon what the staff brings but I I don't think that we ought to be under under any illusion that any quick decisions are going to be made on that property because that ship is already sailed.

We we don't have any RFPs out. We don't have any proposals. It'll be high level and and we're just gonna have to tell folk the truth that we are not maybe at the total beginning, but we have added time to this project

and we want to get it. I'd rather get it right than quick. >> Let let me uh go ahead. You had your hand up.

>> I just wanted to appreciate I felt like there was more than just the um Milton Smalls building. I appreciate what DCM Probes shared. I'm comfortable with that. I look forward to that conversation.

I think that, you know, we we've said that there's urgency and and we understand you also have lots of other things going on. So, if you can come before November 20th, great. If it doesn't, I feel comfortable with what staff has shared and that's just where I'm at. Thank you.

>> Yeah. Uh that that's pretty much what I was going to say. I think staff has to message that. Let's move urgently.

Um, but I I don't want to have a meeting earlier with not enough information. I want when we do meet, I want as much information as possible so that we can give guidance on then going into a decision-m process on how we move forward. Um, so I think the message is clear. >> Okay.

Were there other matters? >> Yes, I had another one. Um, so I am I've talked to everybody about this at some point in time. Maybe not today, but um the staff has done um some research on the wildlife feeding uh ordinance that y'all might remember some folks came up and were talking about the squirrels in their Yeah.

the squirrels and the deer and all of their wildlife in their neighborhood. Um, and so, uh, the attorney and I have met and talked about what an ordinance might look like. And so I would like to bring that forward just for, um, to address that coun or that, excuse me, that constituent request. Um, and I'm happy to put that on the next work session or two work sessions from now, whatever the attorney thinks is the right amount of time for that conversation to happen. Well, I think there's some staff feedback as well, so I kind of want to defer to the manager on how he wants to bring that forward. >> Per our conversation yesterday, we're

we're prepared to report out on the the information that the Housing and Neighborhood Services, formerly NIS code enforcement staff, collected over the summer, uh my recommendation and the conversation that the attorney and I had that this might go in two parts. That we bring you the feedback on what other communities are doing and how it might look in Durham. And then if council's decision is to move forward with an ordinance that that that the attorney would bring the ordinance forward, we can do it like that. Or if council's direction is to bring an ordinance with the staff report, you can give us that direction today.

Either way, we are certainly prepared to bring the staff feedback forward and staff is already preparing the agenda item for that. So I guess the only clarity we need is do you want the ordinance with it or would the ordinance follow a council conversation? >> Um I don't feel strongly about this. I do think that the ordinances are pretty straightforward.

So, I don't think there's I don't think that y'all are going to see something that's going to really surprise you out of that. I do think we could probably talk about both at the same time. But, if folks feel more comfortable having the staff report first and then the ordinance second, it

doesn't matter to me. >> The staff report I haven't uh I know we talked about it. I remember vaguely. Um, I I'm not prepared to say whether the actual staff report is going to inform better or not the actual ordinance.

Um, but I see less purpose for the staff report if we're coming with the ordinance to make a decision on the following meeting. So, I'd like a staff report and then go with the um ordinance. That would be my position. >> Yeah.

I just the only thing is that I don't want us to have talk about things that we aren't going to put in our ordinance, right? because the staff report is going to be I think a little bit broad and so I just want to make sure that we kind of taper it down to like the things that we're actually going to talk about. Uh so we what we could do I think is have the staff report in the next work session and we could already have a draft of the ordinance at that time so that folks can kind of see what's relevant and then we could actually put it on for the 9th as of full discussion. >> Yeah. I I mean I I'll follow you guys

lead on it. I'm I'm okay either way. I uh um but I do want to see the staff report before I even think about shaping an ordinance. >> Okay.

So, can we do the staff report in one work session and then have the ordinance conversation in the work session following? >> Yeah, I'm cool with that. >> Great. >> We'll have that on the 18th.

>> Those are all of my matters. I >> think we're ready to settle. >> All right, Mr. Manager.

Thank you, council members. To settle the agenda, uh on consent, we have items 2 through 20. And on GBA, item one or yes, item one. >> Item one.

Oh, that's the appointment. >> Yes. >> All right. Uh entertain a motion to settle the agenda.

>> Move to settle. >> Second. >> All right. It's moved to probably second.

All in favor? I I >> Thank you all so much. We are adjourned at 47.

I I can't see. Oh, right. 4:37. I saw I saw, >> you know, I really worked hard this meeting, guys.

I um I'm going to have to take a break, but please let's get downstairs. Uh see your little >> uh at the armory. Uh >> 510 is our photo. 510 photo for audit services and 543 our photo for the mayor's Hispanic Latino council.

>> Oh, sorry. >> Thank you. >> Everybody go to the armory.