City Council · Regular Meeting · November 17, 2025

Good evening everyone. Welcome to Durham City Hall. It's great to see you all here. Great to be here.

Um at this time, uh we are calling the meeting to order at 7 PM and I'll ask for a moment of silence, please. Thank you. I'll ask Council Member Freeman to uh please lead us in the pledge of allegiance. >> Definitely.

Thank you. It's our practice as stand to salute the flag and say the pledge together if you'd like to join us. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Clerk.

Please call the role. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mayor Williams >> here.

>> Mayor Prom Middleton, >> I'm here. >> Council member Baker >> here. >> Council member Cabayro >> here. >> Council member Cook

>> here. >> Council member Freeman, >> present. >> Council member Rrist >> here. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you. So, tonight's meeting is going to look a little different. It's going to start a little different. I'm going to take us out of order.

uh my normal announcements and I'm going to go first tonight. I understand that we have some visitors in North Carolina and I am I going to be releasing a statement in conjunction with our um school board chair and county commissioner chair and I would like to just kind of read that at this time. This is a joint statement uh regarding the presence of border patrol. Uh we're deeply troubled by recent news accounts of an increased presence of an immigration officers in and around North Carolina and want to assert a courageous stance on behalf of our immigrant communities that are essential to the fabric of our state and city. We denounce any effort that promotes exclusion, incites fear, undermines

human rights, and compromises safety. Durham does not operate from fear. We lead with compassion, justice, and determination. Our schools, neighborhoods, and places of employment are stronger because of the diversity of cultures, languages, and experiences that define Durham.

We are grieved when those when these when the contributions of our immigrant communities are overlooked and they are mis mistreated as fellow human beings. Our strength lies in our people. We affirm our collective promise that Durham will remain a welcoming community. We stand together in our commitment to pro to protect, uplift, and care for every resident who calls Durm home and reject any policy that threatens that trust and unity that we have built in our community. With that being said, [clears throat] I uh did not request an excuse absence. Uh, so I'm here tonight, but I will be leaving uh to get on a plane and head to Washington and we'll be tomorrow morning

on Morning Joe to talk about what's happening in Durham, all the great things that are happening here and how we are leading across this country as mayors uh in delivering uh when support that we normally have just is fragmented right now. Uh so if you do tune in to Morning Joe, please tune in tomorrow. I'll be in studio on set uh promoting the work that this council has done together. Uh and also um shout out to all the things that happened this weekend from the iron poor to uh you know we we took time to honor uh the lives lost um with the day of remembrance at Central Park.

Uh there were 1,732 souls lost due to traffic deaths and speed plays a pivotal factor in that. And I will be releasing for the first time a video of myself getting hit by a car. Um a couple of months ago, just about two months ago, I didn't talk

about it. Um, but I just want to show um that it can happen to any of us at any time and that we need to be as careful and safe as possible, but it starts with the policies that we're putting in place and how we fund those policies and how we create funding opportunities and streams to support those policies. But most of all, just slow down. Just slow down.

Let's just drive safe on our streets. And lastly, uh, um, well, I'll I'll also be in Washington this week for New Deal Leaders, uh, which is another group of, uh, local leaders across the country that are just really working, even if we have to work across the aisle sometimes, uh, to, um, just just bring our community and our communities together um, for the sake of moving us forward together. com, a national publication, uh, you'll find an op-ed that we just pinned. I, uh, work with a few folks on the funding

cuts, but we were able to get it back in at Congress, uh, for, uh, residents with HIV AIDS. Not sure if you knew it or not, but during the government shutdown, all of that funding just went away. uh but through advocacy and mayors across the country were able to get that funding back restored at least for one year. Uh and you'll see me talking about that uh and just a personal story of a former student of mine here in Durham.

And with that said, lastly, uh I would like to uh Okay, one more thing. Emanuel, please stand up. Come up here, please, to the to the microphone. This is who's intimately been called around the city lately, the new Derek.

But this is Emanuel Ago. Uh he's the new special assistant to the mayor. And uh he's been with me for a week and really excited to uh have you on board. If you could just give a brief who you are and where you're from. And yeah,

>> I would like to say thank you all and thank you mayor, thank you council, thank you executive staff for giving me this opportunity to be with the city of Durham. Uh it is a true honor and a pleasure. I come from Nash County, uh eastern North Carolina. Um so I understand how uh environments can be that aren't necessarily easy.

Um but I know how to work through them. I'm finishing up my master's degree in public administration from North Carolina State University. will be graduating next month and I'm just looking to continue pushing initiatives for the city of Durham. So, thank you guys.

Welcome to the city of Durham. Thank you. [applause] All right. And officially, lastly, we have Troop 411 in the house.

Stand up, troop. All right. [applause] If you all will come down here, please take a picture. If you can come stand in

front of the DAS, got to walk a little faster, though. I got to get on a plane in an hour. [laughter] All right, just take a look at Emanuel. He's going to come down in the middle.

And uh it's great to great to be with you. I'm in the middle here, so you center off. Council, we can stand and take a picture with the troop. >> Could you come up here?

Thank you all so much for your service. Thank you all. Thank you [applause]

colleagues. I wish you all a great meeting tonight. I'll be tuning in and um it shouldn't I'm going to jip you all. I'm going to jinx you.

It shouldn't be a long meeting tonight. Thank you, your honor. Safe travels to you. Tell them not to go too heavy on the foundation uh tomorrow morning on air.

>> All right, colleagues, we're going to continue with our announcements uh here on the day. I'm going to yield. >> Sorry, I actually on the record do need an excuse absence. Y'all agree me with that?

>> Yes. A motion for an excused absence for this evening. >> Would you would you please open the vote? Please close the vote and report out.

>> Motion passes unanimously. >> Thank you so much, colleagues. Enjoy your night. I'd be curious to learn how to how the minutes reflect gaveling the meeting open and then being absent a disappearing act.

So take that up later. Safe travels, Mr. Mayor. >> All right, friends, colleagues.

Well, I'm going to yield now to my honorable colleagues for any announcements you may have. Council member Cook, good evening. >> Good evening. Thank you.

Um, I will be so brief tonight. I most of what I was going to say is already said. Uh, I also uh have not been back since the election, so I want to say a big thank you to Durham. Not as many people as I would have liked to have seen at the polls, but uh we did crush all of our neighbors in terms of off uh offseason elections.

Almost 22% of registered voters showed up for what we call a blue moon election, which means that there's literally nothing higher than your local government on the ballot. So that was an incredible number and I'm excited to watch that continue to rise. I think

people are starting to realize that in this time that local government really makes a lot of decisions that impact you directly. And so though like federal government elections feel very sexy, uh the local government maybe even sexier. You know, here we are. Um but yes, I was thrilled to see that.

So thank you all for coming out to vote and um I'm looking forward to a good meeting. I know we've got a lot of heavy things going on, but I'm just going to put my support behind the statement that was read earlier and um and just want to say that we are we keep each other safe. So, please be looking out for your neighbors. Now more than ever is the time to to know who lives around you.

Uh to understand anything you need to understand about them, to identify safe places and take care of each other because um we're the best we've got. So, uh, thank you so much. >> Thank you so much, Council Member. Council member Baker, good evening. >> Yeah, I'll be I'll be brief as well. Um, I also support the, uh, the statement

that was made, uh, by the mayor in conjunction with the county commission and the school board. Uh, and just want to add to it that, um, you know, our our immigrant friends and neighbors are the backbone of our city and of our country. Um they uh they are so important for our industries. They are so important for our culture and for our society and they bring so much and and they have the same hopes and aspirations as as everyone else.

Um and they have been thrust into the shadows. They are pawns in this game that the that the fascist federal government is is playing right now in this country. they're being terrorized. Um, what we see on on television is only a fraction of the terror that is that is happening in in in homes across uh this country and in cities where where action is being taken um in in clear violation

of of human rights and undermining safety as as our governor spoke to earlier. Um, we'll do everything we can as a council um and as an organization and as individuals. And I know that we have agrees disagreements on this council, but one thing that I'm so proud of is to sit on this board next to people who I know share values in this space where we will do everything that we possibly can to stand up for our im immigrant community, immigrant communities. And I also know that myself and my colleagues, we will be in the streets and putting our bodies on the line and and we we care deeply for for every single person in our community. And and that's one thing that I'm very proud of uh from from myself and from my colleagues and a value that that we have as a city and and our community um in in protecting one another and standing up shoulderto-shoulder with with uh with

everyone in our in our community. So that's all I have. Thank you. Thank you, council member.

Council member Caballero, good evening. >> Thank you. Good evening, everyone. Uh, first of all, I'll start off with some more uh positive news.

Several of us went were in Austin last week for the Durham uh Chamber of Commerce inner city visit. Um, there were uh folks from Durham Public School um foundation, Durham Tech, Duke, the city, the county, several other nonprofits, and it's just a really incredible opportunity. Last year we went to Minneapolis, St. Paul and it's just a way to see what other communities are doing and what ideas um they're doing that we could implement here and also in some cases share some of the good things that we are doing in Durham there.

Uh I know that there was a very I was I had not flown in at the time but there was a a tour uh to a pretty incredible um tiny villages uh community out there that is nationally known uh for its model uh of supporting uh permanent supportive housing. It's been around I think 10 years. I think

council member Wrist was able to go to that tour. So maybe he can share a little bit more. Uh but we it was just a great opportunity to have lots of different folks together in Durham. So I do want to say thank you to the Chamber of Commerce for hosting that.

It was the third annual one and it's always a very enriching experience. Um it was uh last year when we went when we landed Hurricane Helen uh was happening in western North Carolina. Uh, and this year we landed and we knew Border Patrol uh was coming to Charlotte. So, I will say that while the week was great, uh, we we the the end cap was not great news when we get when we got home.

Um, I think everyone in Durham knows where I stand on immigrant rights as an immigrant myself. Uh, it's been an issue that I have fought long and hard for my entire time on council. I will continue to do that. Uh, it is something that I have deep uh, deep pride in. Every single elected official in this city stands up for immigrant rights. Whether you're a county commissioner, a school board member, a district attorney, a judge, a city council member, it is a unifying message in Durham and one that

we really all believe in. Um, and so I have no doubt that Durham will step up and help protect its residents. Uh, we've done it before, we'll do it again. I think the the risks are a lot harder now, um, more challenging.

We've seen what's happened in communities across uh across the United States. When border patrol and ICE shows up, we see that it makes communities much less safe. Um please please look out for information from SMRA uh across North Carolina, Carolina Migrant Network in Charlotte, SEMA in western North Carolina, CIMA. There has been some there have been some sightings of ICE officials in Asheville over the weekend.

Uh everyone is on social media. Everyone is alerting folks. Samra actually has a website up already where you can monitor where ICE has been uh seen. And when you see that, it means that it has been verified.

This is verified information. We know rumors spread. Folks are scared. So, please

make sure you're looking for verified information and that those folks, those verifiers have been trained, so they know what to look for. They know how to report it. There's a process in place. um even if you don't know what you're seeing, reach out to those hotlines and share what you're seeing and they will go and make sure that it's verified before they put it out publicly.

It's so important when we're seeing so many so much um you know rumors and and and things because people genuinely they want to share information. They're worried about their neighbors. They see something and they want to say something. But if it's not been verified, you you could be hurting more than helping.

Uh there are going to be continuing to to be trainings across the week. Know your rights trainings, how to get verified if you also want to be out. I know in Charlotte all weekend folks were out monitoring, recording, capturing what they were seeing. And that is what's going to be needed in the triangle as well. Um, so if you have some time, if you have the ability, if you are comfortable in your own

immigration status, um, please I urge you as a Durham resident to sign up and and support your neighbors in something that's going to be, um, in in many ways, I think probably, uh, the most challenging thing that we've probably experienced, uh, even more than potentially the pandemic, which I know was very scary for many of us. Um [clears throat] that is all I you know I have um I will be thinking about every single one of you. Uh I don't usually talk about um my relationship with faith but I will be thinking and praying for every single Durham resident and knowing that we are going to stand up and fight for one another. >> Thank you.

Council member Council Member Freeman. Good evening. >> Thank you. And I want to appreciate council member Kaviero's comments and wholeheartedly um echo that same sentiment and saying that I really appreciate the way in which our community does show up for one another and mutual aid to support all of the immigrants in our community and I'm very grateful that we're we live in a very welcoming city that we do. We're very

fortunate here in Durham and I want to make sure that um folks are considering what it looks like in other counties across this great state where so many others don't have that same privilege. Um I also just want to make sure I take a moment and say um thank you to all our veterans. Thank you for your service. I know so many folks put their life on the line to sacrifice for our country's freedoms.

And as we watch them in these times, you know, kind of whittle away, it's it's hard to believe that there's so many who have lost their lives and service to our country. and it it feels kind of um dark, but um I do want to uh thank uh Troop 411 for being here this evening and um also uh welcome the new assistant Emmanuel from Nash County. I want to say I just came back from that way um out in Rocky Mount and uh it's great to have you. Love to catch up. Uh I do um want

to make sure that I do get a request for an excused absence for Thursday. I will be at the National League of Cities um wrapping up some of my committees and um board meeting work and uh with folks out there in Utah uh where it's very cold and um just want to make sure that uh I I do u make that request today. And uh I'm up. And one last thing uh just want to share a great uh big shout out to to the DHIC and self-help partnership that created the Hardy Street Apartments and just say thank you for all of the community partners whether Housing for New Hope um families move.

I'm I'm sorry that's not what's the new name of it. Oh, it just slipped my mind. family's moving forward and um yeah in and in and a nutshell but um I I

really appreciate the opportunity to get out on this Saturday to really welcome residents to the new apartments there over 100 units uh all affordable uh 60% and 30% EMI and you know just realizing that that's like 60,000 and 30,000 um annually for a family of four. It's it's really hard knowing that you know one, two, and three bedrooms are very far and few between and we need a lot more of those uh for folks who are making under 30,000 a year. I am just making sure I check all the boxes. also just um acknowledging I did not win the election this this uh past election day, but I do want to say a great um congratulations to those who did.

And I want to say that I'm not going anywhere publicly and uh I will remain here. I'll take a little break, but uh and enjoy some time with family and friends, but I will be on the streets. I'll probably be

in this chamber and uh and other places just trying to make sure that the the work continues and knowing that there are so many people in the community who know um what it is and how it works and uh I want to just shout out that uh the organiz group will continue to keep hosting trainings um continue to keep organizing and continuing to push on the issues around equity regardless of how the federal government feels. It's important that we understand how racism operates and how it impacts people. Um realizing that when you move from I think the term um in organizational psychology is from pet to threat. You know what what it means and and you've got to be present and vigilant about making sure that your your people are covered.

And so I'll continue to do what I do. Thank you. That's all. >> Thank you so much.

Council member Council Member Risk. Good evening. >> Good evening. Thank you, Mayor Pam. Uh good evening colleagues, staff,

residents who are here and those online. It's good to see you all. Um a couple comments. So first of all again thanks to Troop 411 for coming to visit us for for gracing us with your presence and also being here to see how city government works.

I hope you enjoy your your uh experience tonight. Um, I do also want to thank the mayor um for working on a joint statement um with the uh school board and the county commissioners on the immigration raids in Charlotte that we've all been super scared about and super concerned and following the news on a you know minute-to-minute basis. Um I also want to thank Council Member Caballero for her leadership on immigrant issues for keeping that in the forefront on this council. Um we're always stronger on this council and in our public bodies in Durham when we speak with one voice and so I'm proud of that statement.

Um, as many of you all know, I'm also the son of an immigrant. So, I believe in the immigrant experience deeply, um, and and value that experience, value the work our immigrants do, the what they bring to our country in terms of culture and economic value and simply making our communities richer places to be. So, um, I share the concerns we all have here. We're going to fight for one another in Durham um, and and do all we can to

protect our neighbors. So, again, thank you all and thank for being being part of that as we work to protect our neighbors. Um, a couple other things. So, oh, also, you know, council member Cookie, were you were away, but also we were both at the um at the 5K.

So, another way we stand up in Durm is supporting groups that support our unhoused population. So, back on the 5th of November, Open Table Ministry had their what was it, Council Cook? Like their 18th annual walk in their shoes 5K, right? Great event to raise money for Open Table Ministry that provides an important support for our unhoused neighbors.

Um, Council Member Cook was in the walk. I actually did the run and I was lucky enough to finish second place. But y'all got to know Otis, 12-year-old Otis kicked my butt in the 5K and I was like I was Otis was so fast. Um and he so I was I was on his shoulders.

Otis if you got it if you got what it takes you're going to win this race and he did. He held me off. So congrats to Otis out there. Um we got a nice picture afterwards. So I'm so proud of Otis and so proud of all the folks that came out to support Open Table Ministry. Um the

inner city visit to Austin that council member Cababio referenced was a great opportunity for us to to spend some time in a different city learning about a whole range of things that are problems we share in Durham here. Affordable housing, parks, transportation and so forth. Um it was great to be with staff coun the city manager was there along with deputy city manager Chadwell and Propes uh and Carmeisha Wallace. So, it's great to be with staff, to be with community leaders, other electeds to really think deeply and have time to process um some of the some of the ways other communities are addressing these challenges.

We saw great parks in Austin, uh great greenways there. We did see I wasn't there, council, but I know we did uh a lot of folks did learn about those tiny homes they've developed in Austin on a parcel of land that I think there's maybe like what 80 homes or whatever with supportive services. Hundreds. Yeah.

So, cool stuff there that we're all bringing back to Durham. So again, we're working constantly here in this dis to bring the best ideas back to Durham to address the challenges that we face that are similar in many communities around the country. Um the last thing I will say, thank you council member Freeman for mentioning

the the the uh ribbon cutting at Hardy Street. I was not there. I know you and the mayor were there. Um you know, it's it's we talk a lot about affordable housing and I want you all to know there's many ways we can build affordable housing in this community.

Hardy Street Apartments is one way. Um, it's 132 units with Mission Line Partners, DHIC and Self-Help. 85 million loan from the city, a zero interest loan to make that project work. So, that's 132 units of affordable housing between, I think, 30 and 80%.

And that's again one way we're delivering affordable housing. Another way actually on tonight's agenda is we've got an item on the agenda for a $17 million loan um to the housing authority to redevelop the villages of Hattop project. That's going to be 256 units of affordable housing between 30 and 60%. So we talk a lot about profers here on the on the dis and our reasoning hearings, but that's only one of many ways we build affordable housing.

So just so you all know, this council cares deeply about affordable housing. We're working with the many tools we have. We're delivering that housing as we saw on Hardy Street. We're continuing to

build more and we're not going to we're not going to stray from the from the challenge. So thanks for your support. We're going to keep working on that. We know it's one of the main challenges we face here in Durham.

So, thank you all for being here. Thank you, Mayor P. >> Thank you, Council Member Colleagues. Thank you so much for your excellent announcements.

I'll just associate myself with with everything that's been said, particularly our words of of comfort and solidarity for our immigrant community here in Durham. Council member Freeman for mentioning the the ribbon cutting. All of you uh allow me to associate myself with all of your comments. Uh, I would be remiss and in great trouble if I left this uh, chamber tonight without shouting out the Golden Bulls of the Johnson C.

Smith University, CIAA champions in football. Let's give it out. We got a lot of Johnson C. Smith alum in Durham.

[applause] Y'all can do better than that so they can stop uh, texting me threats uh, for not shouting out uh, the Golden Bulls of Johnson C. Smith. Congratulations. And to all of the alum who live in Durham, congratulations on a great season. Troop

411, let me add my word of welcome. Troop 411, stand up again if you would. I want you all to look at them. Look how sharp they look.

Give it up for them again. [applause] Y'all keep standing. I want you to notice they got full uniforms. Uh I was in troop 198 uh in Brooklyn and we um sometimes we had the shirt and jeans and sometimes have to have the curt shift and and not the hat and stuff but so but you know we made it work but y'all look sharp.

You got the full uniforms uh fully dressed, fully buttoned down. You are indeed prepared. So we want to welcome you again to the chamber and you guys look great. Thank you.

Be prepared. Good to see y'all. I also want to uh take this time uh tonight to uh commend to my colleagues uh I I along with council member Freeman will be uh in Utah this week going to pick up an award on Durham's behalf on Wednesday night, a digital cities award. Durham is being recognized once again nationally uh for our exploits in terms

of technology uh and our digital footprint. So I I look forward to picking up that award. I'll try not to to make the acceptance speech too long uh there in Utah. So, I'm going to be asking for an excused absence.

I'll do that in tandem uh with council member Freeman as well as we end the announcements. But I do want to commend to my colleagues on Thursday uh item number four, which is um an item that has me listed as a resource person, is designating the Durham Museum's forever home, that location at Main Street. And I just want to commend that item uh to you uh honorable colleagues. Um the the museum made clear that one of the not obstacles but one of the challenges in doing their fundraising is uh telegraphing uh to potential donors that we are seriously committed uh to this institution as a city.

Of course we are. We know that we are. Uh but one of the ways to to concretize that commitment uh is to designate that they have a home permanently as part of our landscape here. So I'm I'm asking my colleagues while I will not be there Thursday. I'd like like to just uh commend uh that

item to you. Uh item number four for the designation of the Durham uh History uh Museum, please. Uh and I've already mentioned uh that we will be I'll be in Utah uh this week for the National League of Cities as well uh handling some business there and picking up picking up an award on behalf of Durham. Uh so uh a bunch of us will be traveling uh this week and we certainly with safe travels and a successful work session this coming Thursday.

Uh that's all I have uh with respect to announcements. Uh colleagues, at this time I'm going to entertain a motion to grant an excused absence to council member Freeman and myself for this Thursday's work session. >> But Mayor Potm, sorry. Is does the mayor also need one for Thursday?

>> No. >> Okay. >> What? You know what?

>> I thought he did. >> Do you think there was a third person that was >> I Let's do this now. I'll clarify and then we can come back to the Thank you for I'll clarif we we'll get a firm uh clarification. Let's let's go forward.

We have a motion. >> I'll make the motion. Can I do both at

the same time or do we need to do one? >> Yeah, it's it's one motion for both. >> Um Okay. So, I'll make the motion.

>> Thank you. >> Second. >> I have a motion and a second. Madam clerk, would you please open the vote?

Thank you. Please close the vote and report out. >> Motion passes 6. >> Thank you so much, colleagues.

And I'll confirm with the mayor before the uh meeting ends. Colleagues, at that now we'll move to the meat of our agenda. At this time, I'm going to yield to our executive staff for their priority items. At this time, I'll yield to our city manager for any priority items he may have.

Good evening, Mr. Manager. >> Thank you, Mayor Prom. Members of council, the city manager's office has uh no priority items this evening, but just a reminder that for agenda items number 10 and 13, you received presentations at the November 6 work session.

Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Manager. At this time, I'll yield to our city attorney for any priority items she may have.

Good evening, counselor. >> Good evening, Mayor Prom. Good evening, members of the council. The city

attorney's office has no priority items this evening. >> Thank you, madam attorney. And at this time, I'll yield to our distinguished clerk for any announcements you may have, priority items you may have. Madam clerk, >> thank you, Mr.

Mayor Prom. The city clerk's office has no priority items tonight. >> All right. Thank you.

All right. At this time now, we'll move to our consent agenda. Uh friends and neighbors, the consent agenda consists of items that the council has already had an opportunity to treat to do a deep dive on and ask our questions. All of these items will be and can be passed with one vote.

However, any member of the public or any member of the council can pull an item from the agenda and we'll deal with it after passing the remaining items on the consent agenda. Again, these items, if you want them to pass, they will pass already with one vote. Uh, however, they can be pulled by a member of the public or, uh, a member of the council for further consideration. And I'll, uh, start the reading of the consent agenda now. Uh, item number one, afford affordable housing imple imple affordable housing implementation committee appointment. Item number two,

computer just did something funky. All right. >> Yeah. Okay.

Come on. We got to make that bigger, bro. Make it bigger. >> One second.

Give me one second, please. What the heck? What is that? Here we go.

>> I'll do Here we go. All right. Yeah, I think I'll make this work. Item number two, go triangle board of trustees uh reappointment.

Item number four, policies and procedures for the city of Durham's boards, committees, and commissions. Item number five, third amendment to contract 1 19376 with Volunteers of America of the Carolinas, Inc. for the provision of coordinated entry with diversion services. Item number six, South LB restoration phase 3A utility and drainage upgrades SP205-01.

Item number seven, Carolina Theater HVAC upgrades design build services contract with Brady Train Services Service Inc. Item number eight, authorization of loan for the villages of Hatai phase 1 redevelopment formerly Faget Place. That item is pulled. Item number 10, Durham Parks and Recreation FY2025 annual report.

That item is pulled by a member of the public. Continuing item number 11, City County Appearance Commission interlocal agreement amendment. Item 12, the Department of Justice, Office of Community Oriented Policing Services FY25 Community Policing Development Microrant Program Grant Project ordinance. Item number 13, source source water resiliency and response plan update on general business agenda.

Our public hearings this evening. Item number 16, request to permanently close the entirety of Hayai Lane, two Hat Thai Lane, 229 Linear Feet, east of Old Fagatville Street. Uh, that ends the

reading of our published agenda. Uh, I have items 8 and 10 pulled from the consent agenda. Mr. Manager, do you concur?

I do. >> All right. With that, I'll entertain a motion to pass the cons to adopt the consent agenda with uh with the exception of items eight and 10. Some >> move.

Second. >> All right. Motion and second. Hey, madam clerk, would you please open the vote?

Please close the vote and report out. >> Motion passes unanimously. >> Thank you, madam clerk. All right, we'll go uh to item number eight.

I have several speakers for item number eight, which is authorization of loan for the villages of Hay Thai phase one redevelopment, formerly Fyet Place. I'll start with our online speakers uh first and madam clerk if you could if you see a Kendall Douly in quue. >> Good afternoon everyone. >> Mr.

D is here. m. I'd like to officially call

Mr. Mayor Pro Mr. Mr. Douly is in the audience this evening.

>> I can't hear you, Madam Clerk. >> Mr. Douly is in the audience this evening. >> Forgive me.

All right, then we'll we'll we'll come in chamber then in house and we will start uh with Kendall Douly uh and Erin and then Vivian. And if you all will just line up along the uh railing here and we'll take you in turn. Thank you all so much for being with us tonight. You'll have three minutes.

And if you'll just state your name for the record. No need to state your address. >> Good morning, Kendall Douly. My name is Kendall Douly and I want to extend my sincere gratitude to Mayor Leonardo Williams and to our city council here um for for um for serving

our city. And I want to say a special congratulations to those who will continue serving in the upcoming term and a heartfelt thank you to those who have faithfully served our city thus far. I've had the chance to meet some of you in various public settings, but I have not yet had the opportunity to formally in introduce myself to all of you. My wife Aaron and I are members and residents of the Grant Street community.

We live around the corner from the famed Grant Street Ladies and Aaron serves as the secretary there. Together, we founded Black South, a faithrooted assetbased community development nonprofit that's focused on the flourishing of AfricanAmerican neighborhoods. We bring over 30 years of combined experience and assetbased community development and place-based work. We are also members of Monument of Faith Church where we serve as the social justice and outreach ministers, continuing the work that Regina Mays had started. One of the joys of our life in

Durham is walking to our church, also right around the corner from our home. Bishop Clarence Laney serves there as pastor and supports what we are sharing here tonight as well. We chose to move here because my second great grandmother was displaced during urban removal. And as her descendant, I felt a responsibility to come home and help this neighborhood and serve it.

As new neighbors, our work begins with relationships and listening. And we have been listening closely to our elders in the Grant Street community. We've heard them share that they're tired of folks who don't live here having the loudest voice and what happens. " We've heard stories of Mr. white who walked Grant Street community every day waiting for his house to be rebuilt who kept walking unhoused until the day he died. We believe that listening carries a

sacred responsibility to act. And my wife Aaron will will complete my my statement, but I I just want to iterate that we are in support of of this um item. >> Thank you so much for being with us. Good evening.

You have three minutes. Thank you for being with us. >> Good evening. My name is Erin Douly and I'm the wife to Kendall Douly and this is a continuation of his speech.

So today, as a strong coalition, the Grant Street Community, Monument of Faith Church, and Black South. We want to speak clearly. Developers need community support. And in exchange, we expect to be active partners in shaping what is built.

We are organized as a collective coalition. We have a 15-year plan for our neighborhood and we are prepared to implement phase one the first three years together. I also want to note that my husband Kendall holds a real estate license and Black South includes a

property management arm. But beyond buildings, we have a deep experience in people development. The city talks often about real estate development, but who is taking care of the people? We are that anchor community working daily to keep this neighborhood stable and safe amid the realities we live with.

Nighttime gunfire, deaths in the street, vandalism, car breakins, unhoused neighbors trying to survive, working families holding on, and $600,000 homes rising beside. longtime residents. There is already chaos here. We are asking you not to add to it, but to work with us so this development is not sloppy or chaotic, but aligned with the people who call this place home.

We hope this moment becomes a resounding yes for our elders, our neighbors, and our community. And let me say this. If you

don't vote yes tonight, we will still be here still waiting with our elders of Grant Street community. Still fighting with them. Still building with them, not rebuilding because the Grant Street community never left. Thank you.

>> Thank you so much for being with us. Good evening. Thank you for being with us. You have three minutes now.

>> Okay. Good evening uh everyone. My name is Vivian Dolores Gun and I would like to thank uh Mayor Williams and the city council members for allowing me to speak today. M um I am a member of the Grant Street community and I'm one of the Grant Street ladies.

It has been a long road for us to travel. Over 30 years have passed and since and the Fable Street project has not been utilized. We are now happy

that things are taking heat and uh things are beginning to de develop. We would like to see that there is no more eyesore in our community. Uh we like to rectify some of the unhappiness and sadness about what has been happening in the community. And we would just like to thank everyone and all of you for helping us to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I have always said that I would not be alive. I'll be dead before anything would ever be done with the Fedville Street projects or the Fed

place. But I'm happy to say I am here tonight and that something is finally going to be developed. Thank you. >> Thank you for being with us.

Appreciate you. [applause] All right, friends. At this time, I want to welcome uh Victoria Peterson. You've already heard from this gun.

Victoria Peterson, Donna Frederick, you've heard from Kendall and Erin, Muffin Hudson. >> Good evening. Good to see you. You'll have three minutes.

>> I think every once in a while it's good to just to give honor to God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I thank the Lord for an opportunity to be with you this evening. Also, I also want to thank Miss Freeman who is uh who represents me and my ward. And thank you, Miss Freeman, for your service. And I'm I'm hoping that you will stay

around. I'm very concerned about this project. We're speaking about 80 or 90 million that's getting ready to come into the African-American community. 80 to 90 million.

We really need to know who are the players, who's and where is Mr. Walker at? Is he here? Um, Mr.

Militin, I have some questions for them for this project. Who Mr. I'm sorry, Mr. Walker, if you don't mind coming to the front.

I have a question. >> Mr. Peterson, if you if you'll suspend for a minute. This is not Q&A.

The time is yours. After you finish your three minutes, if staff wants to give >> to answer my question >> after you finish your three the time is yours. It's not Q&A. Just continue with your time.

>> Well, I I I have several I have several concerns. The first is who is the general contractor for this project? Who are the persons who are being bonded

to make sure that these dollars are going to be spent the way that they said that they're going to be spent? Who are the African-American subcontractors? We're speaking about 80 to90 million, which is awesome. It's good.

But we need to make sure that the African-American community, our African-American men and women will be employed on this site and on this job. Also, how many women will be employed on this project? And the main thing is when will you be having some more meetings? Actually, the city council needs to have a public meeting right here so that some of this information, Mr.

Militin, will be given to the uh will be given to the public. My two questions is here is this. This project has three phases. My

understanding the first phase is going to build 251 apartments. There's going to be a second phase and a third phase. Can somebody please tell us how many buildings or homes or multiple homes will be built on this second phase? And how many will be built on the third phase for the seniors?

because my understanding there's supposed to be uh a area that's going to be houses for the senior citizens or either apartments. I support this project, but it's got to be done right. I'm not going to support it unless persons who are involved in this project can show to tell us who are going to be the African-Americans, subcontractors, and workers and women. I want to mention that as well as women who project.

>> Thank you so much. >> Thank you, sir. >> I appreciate it. Good to see you.

>> Thank you, Donna Frederick. >> And thank you, Miss Freeman. Again, thank you for your service. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, too, Mr. Mil.

>> I appreciate that. Thank you. God bless you, Donna. Frederick.

Thank you. Good to see you. You have three minutes. >> Your your queries are on record and staff will uh respond to you in due time.

We want to get We're in regular order tonight, so we want to get as Go ahead. >> Good evening, council and absent mayor right now. Um I'm here I'm from Bragtown most of you know but we support this um project as our sister the Grant Street ladies and the reason I'm here that Miss Brenda who spearheaded this is sick tonight and so one of our sisters are down we step in we support each other so I just want to say thank you for this project not often do we come together and say this is a great move again with the caveats of that was mentioned previously But one of the things, get to know your neighbors. You know, this is a project that hopefully will bring neighbors together. It shouldn't, you know, separate us. So again, I'm here for Miss Brenda and she sends her support and her

love and thank you. >> Thank you so much. Good to see you, Muffin Hudson. Good evening.

Good to see you. Thank you for being with us. You'll have three minutes. >> Good evening.

It won't take me this long. Three minutes, I don't think. Um, what I want to say is thank you Diana Freeman. Thank you for serving Durm for the past eight years being dedicated to Ward One.

[applause] Our paths haven't always meshed. We've bumped heads a lot of times, but we always found common ground. and that common ground was loving, protecting, and working for the people that live in Ward One and around the city of Durm. So again, I want to say thank you.

I honor the work you've done and the way you stay committed to the comm community even when the community didn't stay committed to you. Um, I see you. I appreciate you. I appreciate the heart that you have.

May this next chapter of your life bring rest, clarity, and the recognition that you deserve. Again, thank you, Diana Freeman, for serving Ward One for the past eight years. [applause] Thank you so much. Colleagues, at this time I'll entertain a motion to authorize the city manager to negotiate and execute a loan agreement and related loan documents with the housing authority of the city of Durham, DHA, andor its affiliate development ventures incorporated, DVI, to provide up to 17,49,195 for the villages of Hatai phase 1 redevelopment, formerly Fyet Place >> unreadiness.

Wait, you're you're out of order, ma'am. Uh, your questions are on the record. I told you your questions are on this is not a Q&A. We are in regular order.

Your questions are on the record. Staff will deal with you accordingly. Okay. We're in the middle of a vote.

>> I hear a motion and a second. Madam clerk, would you please open up >> unreiness? >> Okay. >> I just want to make sure that I um have

a chance to hear from uh some of the Durham Housing Authority folks. So on this um I made a request. I I I knew the item was being pulled, but I also wanted to pull the item as well. So >> you have a specific question for All right.

Anyone here from Mr. Mr. All right. Good evening, Mayor Pro Tim and city council members.

My name is Anthony Snell. I'm the interim CEO for Durham Housing Authority. >> You're the council member Freeman. >> Thank you.

I just wanted to touch base and um kind of circle around some of the things that were floating around around phase one, phase two, and phase three. And then also touching base on how I think um Forest Hills is either connected or not connected to this project and how that's all going to work out with the environmental hazard that's been identified. >> Sure. >> Thank you. >> So, so the matters are the question was raised earlier about the number of units

in phase one, two and three. Uh the first phase is 252 units. The second phase that we had anticipated that we were going to move forward with, we are going to be applying for another 9% low-income housing tax credit. That's about 70 units and it's all it's all senior.

The third phase is to be determined, but it will be roughly 100 plus units on that. And in addition to that, we have also two phases for home ownership. And between those two phases, we are talking about approximately 40 town homes. That is yet to be determined by the final plans for the site. But overall, we're we're still uh sticking to our original commitment to the community as far as the number of units that we estimate that we will be able to develop for the site. Your question with respect to Forest

Hill Heights. forest uh the Forest Hill Heights is our next major development to follow this this project. We had anticipated that we would be here asking for approval of both of those projects at this particular moment, but we have encountered some issues at the site with respect to environmental items which we have to have approved by the state departmental of environmental I I forget DEEQ I believe that is and that's going to that's going to set us back somewhere six to eight months to get that approval from the state, but it's basically pertaining to radon that's a that's present on the site. The state has to approve the system, the active systems that will be put in place for each of the buildings that will go on the site.

And it takes time for that to be approved. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. >> Thank you,

>> council members. Is that all you had? Okay. Thank you, colleagues.

We have a live motion. Council member Cooks, >> one more question. And Mr. Snell, while you're up here, is there a place where folks can access the information um about phases two and three?

Is there or any of the information that's out? >> Yes, there is a website and I I meant to have that with me, but but I will get it to you and uh that we have on the project itself. There is one set up for the site, but I'll get it to you. >> Oh, one more >> colleagues.

Anyone? Councilman Freeman, of course, >> just uh while you're still there, just making sure that folks understand with the holiday, the next meeting will be uh the 26th. >> So, for the next meeting for the Durham Housing Authority, >> yes, >> actually our meeting is on Wednesday of this week and then we will be on the second and the third week schedule for December as well because of the holidays.

Thank you. That was >> colleagues. Anyone else? All right.

There's a live motion before this body. Madam clerk, would you please open the vote? >> Please close the vote and report out. >> Motion passes unanimously.

>> Thank you, Madam Clerk. Moving on to Item 8 is discharged. Uh moving on to item number 10 that was pulled by uh um Miss Peterson. Miss Peterson, you again.

Item number 10, Durham Parks and Recreation FY2025 annual report. >> I'm like Miss Freeman. I'm not going away anywhere. >> Wouldn't want to.

>> But anyway, >> three minutes. Thank you for being with us. >> I had uh already spoken to uh is the park and recreation director here? >> He'll be online.

>> Okay. I'll tell you, in the past when we were under a different leadership in this city, uh these folks, these employees were supposed to be showing up. Uh it really sort of bothers me uh

that the uh that the employees are not showing up so the public so that we can ask them questions and then they can answer the questions. In the past, they had to be here. But anyway, uh Durm has a growing um uh a growing population of children who are falling on the spectrum. Uh particularly our young children, our young babies that are two and three and four and five years old. I've asked the Durham public I've asked Durham public uh the recreation department could they start creating some programs for those children and I wanted to ask how many dollars and I'm glad the city attorney is here. Um, I have some real concerns that the city may be in violation of the Americans with Disability Act because our children who are falling through the

cracks, who have disabilities, they are not getting the service, the recreation services that they should be getting. And our children pay taxes. Every time I buy buy anything for our son, we have to pay a tax. So, I've asked and I I really wish he was here.

I've asked how much how much dollars are going to be set aside for our children who are on the spectrum and for some of our other children who fall through the cracks as having a disability. And I want to give you a real good example. I love taking my son over to WD Hill. Uh Campus Hill equipment is too old.

It is just too old. Uh WD Hill, that equipment is good, but it's so high that a child that is three and four years old cannot get on this. If they if they get on the sliding board

and they fall and they hurt themselves, somebody's going to be sued because the equipment is too high in the air for your younger children. So, I'm asking the city council to really sort of hold off before you sort of approve this. And I wish the park gentleman was here, the recreation gentleman was here, so that we can find out how many dollars are going to be used in the various recreation facilities for children who have various disabilities. >> Thank you so much uh for being with us.

Um, this this item is a a pro- former vote just to receive a report, the annual report uh from parks and recck. If staff wants to respond, if anybody wants to respond to anything, I think we have the director online. Uh, but again, this this item and we're in regular order, so we want to keep it gerine to the the agenda. This is this is merely the annual report uh that we're approving. Um,

>> all right. We have to make him available. >> Is is uh is our director online? You want to bring him on?

>> Yes. >> Mayor Tim, members of council, Wade Wala, Parks, Recreation. >> Good evening. Um yeah, I'm happy to talk with Miss Peterson as I have before.

Uh Miss Peterson, you still have my cell phone number available at any time as usual for you. Uh, I can give you different programs that we have and connect you with the staff that you've talked with before, but we take a priority in making all of our programs as inclusive as possible. Whether that's how you get to a facility or program or how you can afford to pay or not pay for a program, but that also includes inclusivity in terms of ability, whether that's physical or cognitive. And that is something that we take very seriously. And I think that's something that we've made a lot of improvements in all of our areas uh over the past couple years, but happy to continue to to work with you.

>> Thank you, director. Colleagues, anyone on the annual report item? >> All right. Then at this time, I'll entertain a motion to receive the Durham Parks and Recreation FY2025 annual report.

>> So moved. >> Second. I hear >> a motion in a second. Uh madam cler, would you please open the vote?

Please close the vote and report out. >> Motion passes unanimously. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. At this time now, we'll move to our general business agenda, public hearings.

We have one item, item number 16, request to permanently close the entirety of Hayai Lane, 229 Linear Feet of Old Fagatville Street. Uh at this time, I will uh declare this public hearing open, and we will receive the report from staff. >> Good evening. My name is Payton Blanchard, planner in the planning and development department. Staff requests that all planning and development department testimony and materials presented be made part of the permanent record and states for the

record that all planning and development department hearing items have been advertised and noticed in accordance with state and local law and affidavit of all notices are on file in the planning and development department. The street closing request SC25003 is for the permanent closure of the entirety of Hayai Lane east of Old Fyville Street to allow recombination with the adjacent HOA owned common area addressed as 20 Hai Lane and identified with REI 119 218. The recombination is shown on the associated street closing and recombination plat. Hay Thai Lane is currently open, improved, and maintained by the city.

It provides access to 19 town houses, but no connectivity between public streets. The new parcel is intended to be reserved for future development, but plans have not yet been submitted. Access to the adjacent town homes will

continue to be provided by a common access area driveway. All parcels adjacent to the Hay Thai Lane culde-sac are also owned by the applicant. If the proposed street closure is appro is approved by council pursuant to North Carolina general statutes section 160D-501 and 160D-605. The parcel identified with REI 119218 as recombined with the former dedicated rideway should be designated transit opportunity area on the place type map of the comprehensive plan.

North Carolina General Statute Section 168-299 requires that the governing body make two findings prior to closing any street or alley. These are one, closing the street or alley is not contrary to the public interest. And two, no individual owning the property in the vicinity of the street or alley or in the subdivision in which it is located would be deprived of reasonable means of

ingress or egress to that property. This request was submitted to service agencies for review and comment. All substantive comments were addressed during the review of the case except for the infrastructure review comment indicating that closure would also require a conversion of the public utilities to private ownership through a separate city council agenda item. Staff and the applicant are both available available for questions at this time.

>> Thank you so much. Public hearing is open, but at this time I'm going to yield uh to my honorable colleagues for any questions or comments that they may questions they may have. Council member Cook, please. >> Thank you.

Um at the work session, someone asked about notices. Uh and we gave an answer that I do not think was very um full. Can you talk about the notices that were given in um in compliance with our rules around this project? Uh to my knowledge, the notices were sent out, you know, according to um legal requirements, all adjacent property owners within a certain distance. I'm unaware of the exact

distance at this time, but uh I did get an email today from the applicant. Um did not have a chance to provide him the additional information he was seeking. I think it was in regards to the actual residence of that townhouse development. Um but you wanted to weigh in Jessica Dockery, Planning and Development Department.

To clarify, our rules state that the adjacent properties, those abuing the street, the right of way that's going to be withdrawn be notified. We also typically notify those that are across an intersection and almost adjacent just to make sure that we're covering everybody. So in this instance, it's the built the properties along the culdesac and then directly across the street there is a a comm a commercial development sort of like a strip mall and those tenants did get notification as well.

>> Thank you. Those are my questions. >> Thank you council member colleagues. Anyone else?

>> All right. At this time I'll go now to the gallery for our our guest and the applicant. Is the applicant here? Would you approach, please?

>> Good evening. How much time do you anticipate needing for your presentation? >> Um, I should only need about five minutes. Madam cler speak very quickly when I'm nervous.

So maybe 45 seconds. M >> madam cler, please put seven minutes on the clock. >> You can proceed. Thank you.

>> Thank you. Um, good evening. My name is Rob Emerson. I'm with Emerson Land Planning in Durham.

Um, I've done commercial site planning and historic preservation work in Durham for um, almost 28 years, which sounds crazy. Um, I'm representing the owner of this property, Hay Thai Properties LLC LLC. I'm here to provide a little bit more context and hopefully answer any questions that you might have. Um, Hay

Lane is a short deadend street on the east side of Old Fagatville, directly opposite Phoenix Square. The street serves only the Hayai town home community which has 19 rental units in seven buildings. All are owned by the applicant. The only property that touches Hay Thai Lane is the commons area for the town homes which is also owned by the applicant.

No other tax parcels touch the street or get access from it. Its privatization has no impact whatsoever on neighborhood connectivity now or in the future. The street closure is not part of a reasonzoning or a development plan or an effort to demolish the town home community. On the contrary, when the applicant acquired the town homes in 2022, they were in rough shape.

One had been condemned even. The owner has systematically replaced the roofs, the siding, the decks, upgraded building systems. All but two of these units are fully occupied. one is being renovated

and the other one is available for rent. For me, understanding a site involves studying the zoning, the topography, the infrastructure, but also the history of a place. And while the name Hayai carries tremendous historical and cultural significance, neither Hayai Lane nor this town home community are historic. Both were built in about 1987 as part of Foxgate, a small suburban style subdivision that included five single family homes on Wither's Court.

This property was once near the southern end of the Hatai Commercial District along the original route of Fagatville Street. In the 40s, it was the location of a taxi stand and several small merkantile buildings with upstairs apartments. In 1953, much of this block was destroyed by fire and the businesses were replaced with Gulf and Shell service stations. In the late 60s, Fateville Street was rerouted for construction of the Durham

Freeway and this cutoff block was isolated. The service stations were demolished and the area remained largely vacant until a surge of 1980s investment that created the Hatai Heritage Center, Phoenix Square, and the two culde-sacs of the Foxgate subdivision. The UDO now discourages this type of car oriented lowintensity development in the compact neighborhood tier, calling instead for pedestrian and transit oriented places that enhance the street level experience. The town home community is considered a nonconformity and efforts to improve it are at odds with the UDO and complicated by the presence of a public right ofway in the middle of the small site. I was hired to assess this property to study ways to improve its appearance and functionality and to investigate the possibility of adding more units. The non-conforming site was nearly impossible to reconcile with the existing zoning and the wide ride ofway

cutting it in half was an obvious hindrance. We quickly concluded that privatizing the street would allow greater flexibility to reconfigure driveways, sidewalks, parking, improved lighting, landscaping, control access and security, and possibly even to add more units. Longer term, we felt that street closure was a step in the right direction towards more appropriate infill in an urban form consistent with the existing zoning and the comp plan and with no downside. Street closure simply returns control of a public rideway to the property from which it was taken. Hatai Lane was dedicated as a public street in 1986 and since then the city has borne the cost of maintaining a street and utilities that serve only these seven privatelyowned buildings. Shifting that burden to the property owner at his own request is absolutely in the public interest, has no detrimental impact whatsoever on any other properties and

is fully consistent with the existing zoning and the comprehensive plan. We respectfully request your approval. Thank you. >> Thank you so much.

All right. At this time, we will uh entertain our our speakers. Um I have um Muffin Hudson listed as a resource person. Is that right?

And Ty Parker, Anita Scott Neville, and Angel Doer. if you would all uh just kind of line up along here and we'll take you in turn. Thank you all so much for being with us tonight and if you would just state your name. No need to state your address and you'll have three minutes.

Thank you for being with us. >> Good evening. My name is Todd Parker and I have the privilege of serving as property manager for the Hay Thai Town Home on behalf of Hay Properties LLC. When my client took ownership, the hate town homes were in real need of care, not just physically, but in spirit.

There were deferred repairs, safety concerns, and a lack of consistent management presence. From day one, the owner made it clear that this property would not simply be another investment. It would be a community worth restoring. Over the past few years, that commitment has come to life.

We've seen visible improvements from new roofing, siding, and lighting to well-maintained landscaping and cleaner common areas that residents can take pride in. Greater safety and accountability that includes stronger communication with local law enforcements to reduce incidents and ensure peace of mind. Better communication, responsiveness as management built genuine relationships with residents, address maintenance concerns promptly, and fostered a sense of respect and belonging. sustained affordability because revitalization should not come at the cost of displacement.

But our work isn't finished. My client is now pursuing a thoughtful and responsible next step. Converting the main community street from a public road to a private road. This change will allow ownership to take full

responsibility for maintenance, appearance, and safety of the roadway. It will ensure that residents can enjoy a safer, more controlled environment with better upkeep and management oversight. Importantly, it also relieves the city of Dur Durm of ongoing maintenance obligations while guaranteeing that the community's private management team continues to uphold high standards of care. At its heart, this effort reflects the same values that have guided every improvement made since 2022.

Responsibility, accountability, and pride of ownership. The Hatai town home community has become cleaner, safer, and stronger under new leadership, and we remain committed to continuing this positive momentum for years to come. On behalf of our residents, ownership and management team, I want to thank the city of Durham for recognizing the progress that's already been made and for supporting a future where Hatai continues to thrive. Thank you for your consideration.

>> Thank you for being with us. Anita Scott Neville, good evening. Thank you for being with us. Good to see you.

You have three minutes. >> Thank you. Good evening, uh, Mayor Pro

Tim Middleton and members of the city council. The proposal to permanently close hat Lane and to do so without community engagement poses great concern for residents, merchants and all stakeholders with care and interest about the preservation and restoration of Hai Thai Lane and the surrounding area have already experienced the eraser of streets, homes and history. The notion of having more of this sacred space be eliminated from the remaining landscape of Hatai and without community awareness of impact is an action akin to the land grab and acquisitions by alien developers and beneficiaries of non-local buyers. 3 acre area include Hay Thai Lane and belongs to the developer. 1/3 acre belongs to the city of Durham. The developer is asking the city to grant

ownership of the 1/3 acre of land that the city currently owns at no cost to the developer, Hay Thai Properties LLC. According to the law, the person who requests the land grant only has to get permission from their immediate neighbors. Given that the out ofstate developer owns all of the land directly adjacent to Hay Thai Lane and the duplexes on this property, they become their own neighbor and only need to get permission from themselves and there is no expectation that the developer owner will oppose themselves. Further, this proposal lacks any indication of public benefit. It does however ensure private benefit that the outofstate developer will immediately realize. And if city council approves this request, it will simultaneously further disenfranchise the historic Hay Thai community and

place peril to the future of the historic Hatai community and its longtime residents. 3 acres. Right now, there are limits to what can be done on the publicly owned street. 3 acres from $12 million to $14 million. And it will be worth a lot more in the future as their sole ownership also grants unlimited potential for future economic gain for the outofstate developer owner. Essentially, Hay Thai Properties is asking the city of Durham

for a gift of this property. City Council, we ask that you deny this request. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you, >> Angel Doer. As as Miss Doera comes forward, uh I'm going to ask Chris Perilstein and Chris Mulvy Jr. if you'll prepare yourselves. Good evening.

Thank you for being with us. You have three minutes. Uh good evening. My name is Angel Iset Doer.

I live in the Hay Thai community on the historic Pine Street. And uh this is for the record. uh several organizations and surrounding uh residents did not get notice of this development. There is a sign out there on um the street behind Hay Heritage Center, a nationally uh registered historic place. So the entire area of Hay Thai, y'all, is is historic by the way, Mr. Emerson.

Um, a street named after Hay Thai, this historic area should not be permanently closed. There are seven units on Hay Thai Lane. And from what I I I walked over there and counted, so I didn't realize it was 19. Looked like 21 units to me because they're triplexes.

I could be wrong. In the true definition of affordable housing, these units already exist. So, I'm curious about how serious the city is about affordable housing. Now, a transit opportunity area, which is what's on the agenda, is not about improving transit for the people who already live in an area as a transit opportunity area.

And it all but guarantees the loss of those seven existing affordable units on that land. Those triplexes will not survive the density that this designation demands. And there is no requirement that these units ever be replaced or

replaced affordably. So, let's keep it real. Closing 229 ft of public rightway is not a transportation improvement. It is a parcel assembly maneuver.

When the city absorbs a public street into a private parcel, it is preparing that land for sale. That's why the agenda language says as quote as recombined with the right away. This is a development deal in motion. Hay has already lived through one wave of destruction under urban renewal.

And this is repeating the same pattern. Removing public streets, Grant Street, um destabilizing existing residents, not reclassifying black housing as opportunity land for outside developers. If we're serious about equity and affordable housing, then the first question must be, why are we closing an area where affordable housing is to create a transit opportunity zone instead of protecting the families and

the units that are already there. I urge this council to uh to reject this closure and to reject the transit opportunity designation until you can guarantee legally, financial, and transparently that the housing on this property will remain affordable and the residents will not be displaced. The vote erases the lived experience of the black history surrounding Hayah Heritage Center and there are several things that will be compromised as a result. >> Thank you for being with us this evening.

Thank you. Chris Perilstein and then Chris Moldy. Good evening. Thank you for being with us.

You have three minutes. >> Thank you. Um so I come at this from a little bit of a different perspective and um I I very much focus on transportation and pedestrian bicycle safety as you all know. Um I'm actually really excited to hear that the applicant talked about um you know what happened with 147 and Favville Street and how u the process of urban renewal destroyed the fabric of Hatai. Um, but it goes beyond that. And one of the

things that I'd like to to call attention to is what Hatai Lane used to be before it was Hat Thai Lane. Um, right now today it's a dead end culac. And it's it's great that um we're pointing out that we don't like culacs anymore. That's that's encoded in our UD new UDO.

The applicant is aware of this. Um, and so in that one specific area, I I actually don't really oppose the closure of a dead-end culde-sac that doesn't really serve um the the taxpayers of of Durham. But, uh, this didn't used to be a culde-sac. This used to be Glenn Street.

And Glenn Street actually connected from Fateville all the way to Alustin and beyond and provided a route for community members to go to church, to go to jobs, to get to home, to get to businesses. Um, that all was destroyed on top of the damage that was done when we punched 147 through there and when we moved Fyville Street. And so recently we had a case where an applicant wanted to close a paper street in the Forest Hills

neighborhood and there was some opposition to that. And what came out of that was that the applicant profered two greenway easements. And so it feels a little bit uncomfortable to sit here and have a community like Hayai which has had its grid destroyed and we have this opportunity to say well what can we do to reconnect this? Uh to not have anything come out of this.

It's just giving away land that does currently belong to the people of Durham and we're not getting anything in exchange for it. So, I'm not necessarily against the closure of the culde-sac, but I want to know why we're not necessarily creating the same kind of opportunity for the residents of Hay Thai or perhaps the future residents of the villages at Hay Thai to provide better pedestrian and bicycle access. I've talked also about how uh transportation is the second biggest cost after housing. And if you think about the folks who are going to be living here and they need affordable housing, well, what else do they need? They need affordable transit. We provide that with our free bus service, but it's

not just about the bus. How do I get to the bus? And if there was Glenn Street, still a resident of the villages of Hai would have about a third less distance to walk to get to the closest bus stop or to get to the commercial opportunities on Fagatville Street. " Thank you.

>> Thank you so much for being with us, Chris Mulvy. >> Good evening. Thank you for being with us. You have three minutes.

>> So, I am, you know, kind of split on this one. This one is really hard. I live on Hai Lane and my landlord, you know, I would say he's a good landlord. I'm almost ashamed to admit.

Um, but he has done a lot of improvement. Um, he's been very responsive. A lot of the things he's put in. So, I believe he would, you know, have the best interests

of his tenants's heart as much as he can. But the problem with private ownership is what happens if he decides to sell, right? And then what about the next landlord? Are they going to be so nice?

what are they going to do with the street? Maybe they'll just all kick us out and build a big uh ugly apartment building there, you know, and jack up the rents. It's just taking the control out of the public and placing it in private hands on principle is something that I'm opposed to. It's also a bit on the nose that this is literally Hey, Tai Lane and we're going to close it and potentially, you know, give it over to a a private owner. Um, so I'm opposed to the closing of the road, although I do believe my landlord, you know, would not act in a harmful way, even if this motion did pass. If it didn't, then

he would still find a way to help the tenants because that's kind of how he's been this whole time. I have a couple questions to think about. It was mentioned before, but you know, people have brought up, oh, the maintenance cost would be lowered. Yeah, but what about the cost of the land of the road?

It's, you know, one estimate was $2 million. That's a lot of money to be gifting to the landlord. Um, how much of that would come back to the public or to the tenants? Another thing that I um heard brought up was that it's a dead end called the sack and it doesn't serve anybody but the tenants. Yeah. But there's this giant new development taking place right behind Hay Thai Lane and it's a really prime opportunity for you know the guy said Chris said it before me a pedestrian right of way if not you know uh one for cars because it would just be so easy to walk from the

villages at Hai which I think it's going to be to you know the Phoenix center there's a bus stop right on the corner there's church over there and that's another reason why I would be opposed to the closing of the road. Thank you. >> Thank you so much for being with us. That's all the registered speakers I have.

Mr. Emerson, did you want to respond to anything you heard? Yes. Thank you.

Um I just want to correct a couple things. Um Hey, Tai Lane was not Glenn Street. In fact, Glen Street was further south. Glen Street collected connected through to Witted Avenue, which was removed it in its entirety, as was Glenn Street.

Um, Hay Tai Lane is further north than Glen Street. Um, I question the valuation of the $2 million on this third of an acre. I'm not sure where those figures came from.

Um, and I guess, you know, we we started this process more than a year ago. We spent about six months, even before we submitted the street closure petition, um, reaching out to, uh, city of Durham planning, public works, transportation, talked about connectivity, um, talked about subdivision rules, easements, utilities, all kinds of things. We reached out to the Durham Housing Authority. We were put in touch with their project managers and we looked at their plans.

We wanted to make sure that we weren't missing opportunities or doing anything with the closure of this culde-sac uh that would hinder what's happening at the village villages of Hatai. Um we're not there is about a 15 foot topographic difference between the Hatai Lane culdesac and Merrick Street. So uh connecting through the site with a greenway um does sound like a wonderful idea. I'm not sure about the practicality of it. Um, and those are the kinds of things that would be

reviewed and looked at and studied if the site were being redeveloped. It's not. Again, this is not part of a reasonzoning. It's not part of a redevelopment request.

Um, if the site is eventually redeveloped, there will be a lengthy public site plan review process. Um if there are variances or uh resonings required, there will be public hearings for those. We would ask that you review the merits of the street closure on its own. Um and uh again, we went through a after the six-month sort of informal process.

We went through another six months of uh staff review with parks and wreck, open space and trails, everybody. Uh, we've heard no substantive comments. I've heard comments, concerns about um who the developer is, where he's from, uh, the name of his LLC. I've not heard any technical concerns about closing this 229 foot long deadend culde-sac.

Thank you. >> Thank you. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone else in the gallery who wishes to speak on this item who has not had opportunity to speak?

If you you you wish to speak, sir. Okay. If you would come up and just state your name. No need to state your address.

You have three minutes. And if you would do me a favor after you finish speaking, if you would fill out a card for the clerk, I'm I'm going have you do it now. And if you just give your name, no need to give your address, and you'll have three minutes. [clears throat] Uh city council, um my name is Christian Edwards.

Um I have a property that's actually adjacent to the property that we're discussing. Um, it was inherited, um, after my father passed. Um, it used to be a blackowned newspaper called the Carolina Times. And, um, unfortunately, I never received any type of information that this gentleman is stating. Um, I think my concern is when I'm maintaining or attempting to maintain my father's

property. Hatai has events and the vast majority of Hay ties, the individuals that visit Hay Thai park on Old Fable Street. And if you've ever been on Old Fable, it is a relatively very um slim street, right? And when cars are parked on both sides of the street, only one car can get down the lane.

Um, I don't know if you've ever experienced that, but it's very tight. And if, in my understanding, if they're closing the street and the tenants have no way to get to their actual units, then are they parking on the street on Old Favville? Are they parking in Phoenix Square? Are they parking in Hatai, the actual church, or are they parking in the building where um Perry Perry and Perry is located?

I mean, there's not much parking left, unfortunately. And so, it it just creates more of a clutter than anything else. I apologize. I didn't

have anything formal. Um but I have lived in Durham all my life and I have seen change, good and bad. And um I understand that when you are a private property owner, you can do to extent whatever you want, but I think being that this is hat and the historic value of it, um I'm somewhat torn. So I'm I'm representing both parties in a sense in my mind.

one that's coming from the historic front, another saying that well I am a I've inherited property from my father and my grandmother and my great-grandfather that have been around and stood for African-Americans for years. Um I don't know. I will leave it up to you all. Mrs.

Freeman, thank you for your service. You have done a lot for individuals that look like you and I. You have done a lot for individuals that don't look like you and I. And we're going to dearly miss you. Thank you.

>> Thank you so much for being with us. Did you All right. This will be our last speaker from the gallery on this public hearing. If you'll state your name, no need to state your address.

You'll have three minutes. Thank you for being with us. >> Yes. Uh good evening everyone.

Uh CJ Brick. Um I just thought listening to the presentation and also to the applicant that there was a lot of disingenuous um uh speak if you will. I mean I think so. So, I mean, I know there's a separate process for um for reszoning and for those kind of things, but the applicant almost makes it seem as if they couldn't just get this proposal and package it and sell it tomorrow and then leave that for a future person. As if their value, the value that that this brings them doesn't afford them that opportunity that that then we as a community, we have to clean up behind the applicant, I think, is just disingenuous. I think um I'm I'm excited that some of the tenants that were here to say that the the landlord has been a good landlord, but I think as far as engaging with the community in a way that ma that makes sense, Hay

Heritage Center and other property owners that would be affected by this, I think there's a lack of of uh of engagement there in a serious manner. Um so I'm going to ask the council to to punt on this and and fail it. um um they're they're certainly more than welcome to come back later after they've talked to the community and after they've um presented more information about what they do plan to do and not to do, but I don't believe for a second that you know that um that they're going to inherit all this this this new part this new land and then just and then plan and not develop it eventually. I think that um you'd be almost presenting an opportunity for folks to kind of use a backdoor uh mechanism to to to do development.

So for all those things I I'm asking you all to put on this. Thanks. >> Thank you so much for being with us. I'm going to declare this public hearing closed and this matters back before the council and I'll yield now to my colleagues for their questions.

Council member Cook, please. >> Thank you. I have just one more question for staff. It's going to be back to the notices if you I don't know who wants to

come up. Um, the statute does allow for us to publish notices. Um, it also allows for us to just choose to notice neighbors. Um, I'm wondering how we make the decision about what types of notices to give out and also as a followup to that want to think about considering the neighborhoods that we're talking about and the historic impacts that city work has had on those neighborhoods.

And also in this case where we know that everyone is not a all of the land owners in the vicinity are owned by the applicant themselves. and so we didn't see notice to any other people um and how that might have played a part in the decision. >> I'll just start off by just clearing up some of the questions about the legal notices as best as I can. I know that for resonings, which I don't have any experience with, but I do know that the

legal notice mailing requirements for resonings, for example, is up to a,000 feet u surrounding the subject property. And it is it is codified in our uh development ordinance that for street closings in particular that just the immediately adjacent properties are required for legal notice and I understand the concern about the I guess single ownership of those adjacent properties. Um but that's I can't speak any further to that. I I'd have to defer to maybe >> Yeah, maybe maybe we could I just what I want to know is why I mean the statute allows for us to do public notice and it allows for publishing.

Uh we chose not to do that. Uh and I want to know why the decision was made and and what what we consider when we make those decisions. Um and if we maybe should think about having different considerations in the future. >> Good evening. Thank you, council member. Yes, the the UDIO which mirrors um state

law in that it does at least the minimum that state law requires and in many instances we go above state law. It does require for street closings um in addition to sorry I'm looking at it right here. It requires a published legal ad which we did do the mailed notice to adjacent and the posted. So it requires all three types of notice um which was now one of the things I will say is we have um upcoming the new administrative section of the new ordinance and these are certainly things that we can consider just like we have gone above and beyond for resonings.

We do a thousand feet out for those but by state law we're also only required to do adjacent properties so we go well above state law. So, um, that is definitely something that we can consider, uh, expanded notice for these types of items as well in the new ordinance. >> My reading of this is section 51. In the closing of streets and alleys in the city pursuant to the provisions of general statute 168299,

a copy of the resolution declaring the council's intent to close any street or alley need be sent only to those owners of property adjoining the street or alley in the portion of the street or alley proposed to be closed. A notice may be sent to such owners in lie of a copy of the resolution. A notice may be published in lie of the publication of the resolution. But to me that reads it may be done in lie of publication of the resolution saying that publication of the resolution is still an option for us.

Is that not how >> read that? This was the topic I believe of an uh email exchange recently where I tried to clarify that the requirement for a resolution is something that uh we do not have to do. We have special authority to not do that. Um because the resol the purpose of the resolution is to set the public hearing council and the attorney can correct me if I'm wrong. Madam Attorney, um there is uh a resolution from council

that has given authority to the city manager or his design to set those uh public hearings. Therefore, we get to skip the part about the council doing a resolution. >> So, because we've delegated, we don't have to notice. I mean, if the council had done it, we would have to notice it, but because it's delegated to staff, we don't have to do it.

the notice, >> the publication is that >> so we we still do the notice >> publication of the resolution. Yeah. >> Right. We just don't do the resolution.

We don't do a separate notice that we're getting ready fixing to get ready to have a public hearing. We just notice the public hearing. >> Okay. All right.

I might have some follow-up questions on that, but I'm good for now. Thank you. Um I I don't have any further questions, but I just want to say really briefly, and a couple of speakers talked about this, but um I'm not I usually am just like a person that likes to sit up here

and ask a lot of questions and not state a lot of things necessarily. And I don't want this to come off as being like uh holier than thou or whatever, but um I did have some issues with the way that uh this project was presented and um I want to just lo note them because I think it's important. Um one, the deeming of this area not historic. I I found that to be problematic and I know that someone else mentioned that in their comments as well.

Uh, I think it's it feels really disingenuous for somebody who is not part of that historic community to designate which parts of it are are not historic. Um, and I think that you probably meant like a specific legal designation as opposed to sort of an idea, but it it didn't come off very well. And and I just think that that's an important piece that we need to talk about up here because this is we talk about hay tai all the time and everyone has ideas and about where to send money and how to sort of address

the wrongs historically. But the reality is that we have folks that have lived in Hay Thai and continue to live in Hayai and those are the folks whose voices we need to honor and I think that they get to make determinations for themselves. Uh, which goes into my second piece, which was the um sort of like list of people that you reached out to for this. You reached out to these city workers, you reached out to DHA, but one really huge piece that was missing was I didn't hear you say that you reached out to the community.

And so when you say that um there's we're not missing anything here, uh it's hard for me to hear that when the solutions and the creative solutions might be in the community and those were folks who were not given a voice in this. Um and then the third thing was the no substantive comments I thought was really problematic. Uh folks are within their right to get up here and talk about however they relate to this land and it doesn't have to be technical and it doesn't have to be couched in statute. Uh, and I think that those

comments are really valuable and they are ones that we don't take into valuation a lot. And I think that that's problematic. We see um how decisions that are made without that qualitative information end up harming folks uh specifically disperately impacted and marginalized communities. And so that felt really problematic to me too.

Uh, so those just want to say on the record that um that I really value the comments that were made tonight. I want to thank the community for coming to speak up. Y'all are so engaged. you're paying attention and um and I do feel like we've heard some really really important ideas and uh and some hopes and dreams for and it's a small space but it's a space that's important and a piece of a story and how we move through the world and uh and make decisions around those historic spaces is important.

So, thank you to the community that came out to speak tonight. Those are all my comments. >> Thank you, Council Member. Council

member Baker, please. Thank you. Yeah, this is a very a very small space that we're talking about here. Um, and I I am by no means wed to keeping all of our rights of way, keeping all of our streets, keeping all of our cold coldness acts um as they are.

And in fact, I'm a bit big advocate of changing and redesigning the way that our streets are um and uh and making them making them safer and and more connected uh not less connected. Um that being said, I am I'm not I'm not persuaded I'm not persuaded by this request to to privatize the street and to vacate the right of way. Um, when I look at this case, I think with without more information and without more substance and without more planning in place, it would set it wouldn't set a healthy or constructive precedent for us

um to simply receive a request to vacate a public right of way and turn it into a private street and and approve it. Um I do think that there are legitimate cases to vacate public rights of way. Uh as um Mr. Pearlstein uh raised earlier, we we not too long ago had a case uh where there was a a public right of way that had never become a street.

So it was a paper street um connecting to a potential future greenway, not even not even funded, but a potential future greenway. and we sent it back and came out, I thought, with um with a win-win where um we ended up um vacating the choosing to vacate the public right ofway and getting not just uh keeping a connection, but adding an additional connection through uh through easements. So, that's one where I felt like the public was was getting something in return, getting getting a public benefit, and we were coming out with a with a win-win. Um so, I thought that

that was a healthy middle ground. um one where we worked together with the applicant to get something that was good for for everyone. I don't see that here. I don't see a persuasive argument being made that this is both beneficial to the public, to the neighborhood, to the city, to the public good and to and to the applicant.

It it seems imbalanced. Um I don't feel like there's enough information. I don't feel like there's a strong plan in place and therefore um I I can't I can't support this request. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Council Member Council Member Caballero. >> Thank you. The last one that we saw was the Cliff Street one and it was identified that there was while unfunded a a greenway. I mean my looking at my packet I I guess this is a question for staff.

There's not anything there, right? So there is not really something to connect to. Okay. I'm seeing several shaking nose.

So, thank you for that. No, you don't. You're good. You're good. Um [clears throat] um I I appreciate what folks are are

sharing. I would feel differently um if the if the property owner was letting these homes go derelct, right? And you weren't seeing improvements and you weren't seeing um kind of a clear commitment. I think I would feel, you know, skepticism about, well, they're just wanting to close this thing because they're going to sell and and turn it over and they want to make a buck and whatever.

That's not what we're seeing. This is a property owner who bought in 2022, I heard. In fact, one of his tenants is here. Um there have been improvements.

We we see road closures pretty not ton. They're not a ton. We see a handful of them every year. Some of them um the road closure is clear.

It's tied to some other part of a project. It's not really in the benefit of the community or doesn't really make sense. , etc. others. Uh there's like the Cliff Street one that we saw I think mid

midocctober, you could improve it because there's a plan. Uh and and the and it made sense. I I just don't see that with this case. Um and again, if it was clear that the property owner was basically letting things get dilapated and derelct, you you could see, oh yeah, well, we know what they're doing and where they're going.

But I don't see that in this case. I'm I'm wanting to hear from others. Um it's a culde-sac. It doesn't really connect behind it.

The applicant did their due diligence as far as well is there a way to connect to the upcoming FET place. Um not not really not as straightforwardly. Um so it makes sense as to why they want to close it. I understand community members are concerned.

Uh it's a it's a part of the city that will always be sensitive, right? regardless of who, what, where, or how. Um, just tonight we saw folks who showed up uh for uh the redevelopment of of Fyet Place and there's not actual consistency there,

right? We've heard the entire time folks who are very excited and folks who don't who aren't excited and are very skeptical about that redevelopment. So, I I don't look at this part of the city as as a as a part of the city that is um clearly unified in what it it wants. it it knows what it doesn't want.

It doesn't want the harm and damage that was um inflicted upon it uh you know 50 plus years ago. Um and so it's hard as a decision maker because we hear well you need to listen to the community but everybody has a different opinion in this part of the city. When Fyet Place, which is now villages, um at Hay Thai, a few years ago, there was a lot of tension in Hay Thai on Fagetville Street corridor about what was going to happen, how, where, who. It was not clear. It was a very hard conversation. I think several of us were in those community meetings and it played out again with

Heritage Square. " And then we were seeing in public hearings folks saying, "Well, the community says," and I think that that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but as a decision maker, it's hard to, well, which community member am I listening to? How long has that community been member been there?

Okay, how am I supposed to make decisions if 50 different people have 50 different opinions or 20 are sort of in alignment but not really? And I think that's what we see over and over again in this part and with with the with the community that has been very very hurt. Um, right now I'm leaning yes. Uh, but I'm open to hearing from others. Again, most of these street closures are pretty straightforward from just a land use perspective. Um, but I understand why there's a lot of sensitivity and I understand where where it sits and and how it connects to other uh um community organizations right there.

>> Thank you, Council Member. Council member Freeman. >> Thank you. Um, I think the applicants uh request highlights for us some of the challenges that uh folks in the neighborhood have been facing and continue to face.

Um, and I think council member Caballero's comments highlight how difficult it is for folks who are disconnected from community to see that when you starve a community long enough, they'll take whatever crumbs you give them. And it's not discord and it's not disagreement. It's just some folks just don't want to see the eyesore anymore. And if you've been stuck, and I live around the corner um in Edgemont, which has been destroyed and is now what we call Golden Belt, because that's what's left. Um

there's there's a sensitivity around Hay Thai. And I and I I mean I just can't leave this conversation without saying like the cultural appropriation of taking the name Hay Thai and making it Hay Thai Properties LLC is just offensive first of all and then just parading in a token to speak on behalf of your organization. Not the owner themselves but a property manager is also belittling. And it's it's just those those little things that tell you who a property owner is, who an organization is.

And as well-intentioned as they might be, you have to pay attention to those little things. And I know very clearly because my elders tell me when it's on, it's on. And so when you've lived in the 30s, the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s in 2000, 2010, and 2020 in this nation, you understand when you're under attack. And so it's very clear to me like it's not about Hai Lane. It's about what Hay

Thai means to Durm. And so if it means anything to Durm, we've got to make sure that we're clear that we're not auctioning off pieces um without community benefit for the public good. And so I think Council Member Baker said it very clearly. Uh, I'm definitely not persuaded um to close the street, but I am concerned about what the next council will think and the next council will do to make sure that Hay Thai is protected.

I feel like it will not be protected. And so, um, I'm I want to raise that issue for all of you here who are speaking up on behalf of Hay Thai because it's not just Hatai Lane. And um I want to be really clear like the historic nature of what 147 and the relationship of the city, the

federal government, Derm like the DOT, state, federal, and locally. If we rely on staff, if we rely on boards, committees, and commissions to to determine what our community looks like, it's going to continue to be whatever developers decide and that's not beneficial to my community. Um, that's not beneficial to my children who I hope to leave in this community. Like, it's not beneficial to the grandchild. These things are all telling and it's hard to be hopeful in the face of all that's happening. But I I just I just I I mean I I understand the premise in setting up this street, you know, the street closure because it's a culdeac, but if you never even investigated as as you talk to city staff, whether a pedestrian, you know,

access to um even if it's Merrick with 15 feet, I mean, a simple S for a ramp is enough. It doesn't necessarily have to be a straight line. That's the type of valued creativity we need when we're talking about community like Hai or the West End or Bragg Town. I'm I'm I mean I I live and breathe Golden Belt in a way in which you know that's that's how I enter into this space and I know what's been lost.

I know it's been sacrificed and so I just want to make sure that we're not limiting this conversation to the lane or the culdesac. It's all of it and it's I mean it just can't be given. So thank you. That's all.

>> Thank you council member. Council member wrist. >> Thank you may prot. Yeah as my colleagues have said these these street

closures are pretty straightforward. This one is not. This is a complicated one. Um, I understand the the concerns from the folks from Hattop for all the things we've talked about.

It's a it's a it's a very delicate subject. The land, what's happened there. So, I understand the concerns. I understand that that for a transit opportunity area, a culde-sac is not a great what we envision is not a great use for that for that property, right?

For that land use. I guess to me this what this really ultimately revolves around and I think we've been kind of dancing around this is some of the questions that I'm looking at my packet when we when we get these street closures the UDO requires that the applicant provide responses to a number of factors. One of them is you know what is the public interest in closing the rideway? So I wonder Mr.

Emerson, if you'd come back to the podium, I wonder if you could just sort of for for for me at least kind of restate the answer to that question like what is the because I think I think that's what we're talking about here. Like this is public land. It's not a it's third of an acre, but it is public land that we'd be giving to the applicants. So what is what is the public interest if you could state that

um in closing this right away? Well, I think the public interest I think in the short term would be relieving the city of Durham of the cost of maintaining a street that serves only this private development. That's the public interest. Um the cost of the sewer and water infrastructure, the roads, the pavement, curb and gutter.

Um that maintenance would responsibility would be shifted back um to the property owner. And again, it's not the same property owner who built this place in 1987. um that person cashed out and moved along. Um but it would return that property to that original parcel that it was carved out of. Um and I think long-term um the public interest serves in um the things that that that you said and the things that council member um Baker mentioned and council member Caballero. Um, I think long term in order for Fatville,

this part of old Fagatville Street, what was Fatville Street, to be something like it once was, um, that culde-sac has to go. The culde-sac has to go away in order for the site to be redeveloped in an appropriate way in the long term. And again, we're just not there yet. We don't um I've been doing this in Durham, as I said, for 28 years.

Um, I've studied this site. I was hired to study the site. What do you see here? Can I add some units?

How can I make it better? Um, and I said, "This is weird. " Um, so I see a disconnect between what was built in 1987 and what all of the city's planning documents want to see happen here and what I think the community wants to see happen here. Again, in the long term, we don't have a project today. Um, we do

have a property owner. It's been demonstrated that he has invested invested in this site and that he does care about the community and want to improve it. Um, that's why I was hired and that's why I made the recommendation to pursue the street closure. Um, I do believe it to be in the public interest both short and long term.

Um, I guess I hope I answered your question. >> Yeah, I I really appreciate that. Yeah. Um, thank you for that.

And I wonder actually I wonder um if staff could come forward as well on this question of like this the city's cost to maintain the roads. And I know that's that's not really a planning that's not your responsibility. in in uh was it environmental and street services now? But is there any way to estimate like what's our you know on an annual basis what's the what's the city's cost of maintaining this portion of right away right >> unfortunately I would not be able to answer that question I don't have any any kind of knowledge on that topic um maybe my colleagues might but

no unfortunately I don't think planning is capable of providing a good answer to that >> would you pull your mic a little closer to you Sorry, >> Mr. Manager. I wonder if anyone from Environmental Street Services is on. I some sometimes they join in the calls.

>> Given the the technical nature of that response, I'd be reluctant to to try and swag an answer this evening. I'd be happy for staff to provide an estimate uh followup. It's going to be negligible. Um it's, you know, it's a the the necessity of of maintaining a street in terms of uh repaving, resurfacing, uh occasional repair.

Um it it's not going to be a significant number. So >> great. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Yeah. So it seems to me it does kind of revolve around this question about what is the Yeah. What's the proper use here and what sort of what's the current use, but what versus what we envision long term. So yeah, I'm still wrestling with this one.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor Temp. >> Thank you, colleagues. Mr. Mson, if I

might ask you a a question. Um, [clears throat] and and as you approach, if if this case were in any other neighborhood, this meeting would have been over a long time ago. Um, th this is pretty straightforward. Um, I mean, the criteria for closing a street, at least as long as I've been here, um, has never crossed a threshold of persuasion.

They're almost self-presenting. Does it do anything? Does it go anywhere? Are we already spending money?

As of tonight, city coffers are subsidizing a handful of uh, residents right now. Right now, the city is paying um, for this developer. And I'm grateful for the we had one resident from the neighborhood which and this is also interesting that one person who selfidentified as actually living in those units is here tonight. Um and I I think that's something because often times we've had this chamber full of folk who actually live in the area that's being affected to kind of uh

advocate. So I want to I want to give deference um and acknowledge the one person who's here tonight who actually uh lives there. But but street closures aren't a matter of persuasion. And it's really a check mark.

You know, it it's almost self-presenting. So, I I I just want to be very um transparent about this is about where this is and determining what happens there, notwithstanding who owns land or not, determining what it's going to look like, um finding our voice, um honoring, um the history uh and the legacy there. And that's okay. that that we should that that's fine that we have that conversation and we should we should be transparent about it.

But I don't want to pretend that this is some type of exotic case in terms of the particularities of it. We've done a bunch of these over the years and and they're pretty straightforward. It is not straightforward because it's in Haiti and that's cool. That that's fine. So I I just want to put that out there. But I do want to ask um because part of

this is what's going to happen there. That's really what this is about. And if it's recombined, I I did the staff report indicates that you there's no determination as to what's going to be there, but do you have any inkling of what the owners down the road plan on doing if it's recombined? >> No, sir.

Um I'm I'm pretty pretty low on that uh that tier of being on the need to know basis. I I can tell you we've studied the site. Um, we've drawn some things that, you know, could happen in a if you had a, you know, Sim City sort of rectangle to play with and and build something that, you know, addressed Old Fateville Street in an appropriate manner. Um, it it just I'm told it didn't pencil out that there's no feasible project, which is largely why he's decided to sort of double down and reinvest in these 40-year-old buildings.

again, new roofs, new siding, HVAC systems, electrical systems. One is under total renovation. There's just no

no plan yet. >> Okay. I have a question uh for staff and as a staff approaches. I I you know I always try and weigh the um the applicability of standards across cases because I I can see the day where folk in Hatai um who are vested there, who are native to Hay Thai, who live there, I can see one day us asking to close streets for something we want to do there.

Um and it may very well I North Carolina Central University is the biggest land owner in FA Street corridor right now. Uh there are there are land owners there who are native to the area who may very well one day want to street close. If we as we take Hay tai back, as we continue as we reassert um the beauty and legacy of that area, there will come a time where we're going to want to do some things that we will want to uh uh some some privileges that we want to afford ourselves of. And I

just want to make sure that that we as a city have kept fidelity with applying those standards uniformally. The day will come when we're going to want to close something down in Hatai in order to preserve Hay Thai. And I'm here for it. Um but I also want to, you know, be able to say that um residents, citizens, folk, someone who lives in the neighborhood is here tonight and said that the landlord's a pretty decent landlord, paraphrasing. Um you so I I want to keep um just make sure the stand as as a as a you know not a debate society but as an actual policymaking body with a vote I want to make sure that you know we maintain integrity with the standards that we apply for all our citizens and residents um understanding the um the uh sensitivity of this area. Is there a precedent when we've um taken a culde-sac and opened it up again you you may or may not know I'm sorry you might know where we have um actually rec

captured a culde-sac and created connectivity or throughway within our urban tier is that is is there a precedent >> I cannot think of one >> how in your professional opinion how How challenging or difficult would that be? >> Typically doing something like that we have to look the biggest challenge is are there grade changes that make it so that the road cannot be effectively built across you know whatever distance we're trying to cover. Um sometimes there are utility or easements. Sometimes there might be streams especially in urban area these piped streams.

So those are typically the challenges that we run into. All right. Um, last question for the applicant. I'm sorry you went back.

So, if we don't close it, uh, what happens? >> Nothing. Status quo. Uh, I would put my pencil

down. um not investigate ways to add more units or ways to reconfigure the driveways or add sidewalks, things like that that I was initially tasked to uh to study. >> Mhm. And all the units are rental, >> pardon me.

>> They're all rental. >> Yes, sir. >> Any plans to to that you know of to one day go to to actual ownership or to sell them? >> Not that I'm aware of.

>> All right. All right. That's all my questions, colleagues. Uh another round.

Council member Freeman, please. Just one particular question. I'm not sure if there's anyone who could speak to this, but I just want to know if DOSS DM's Open Space and Trails has ever explored anything in the Hayai area as a body. Uh the only thing I can say in regards to your question would be that parks and recck department was included on the the

review of this case and did not have any comments of substance. That's all the information I have. >> That was all. Thank you.

>> Welcome colleagues. Council Freeman. I'm Council Member Cabier. >> Yeah.

Council member Freeman, when you asked that, were were you thinking just at what was your >> just acknowledging the disparity in how land in our city is reviewed and so just acknowledging like there are different parts of town that are reviewed and looked at for open space and trails and there are others that aren't. >> I think that's kind of the commission itself. >> Yeah. I mean, just in general, even if there were if parks and wreckage looked at this area, um you know how hard I had to fight to get that east side of Durm, you know, making sure that those parks connected so that there's actual trail from Aenddale all the way through to R. Kelly Bryant Bridge. Like that conversation wasn't something that we

were having. That's been a big push. And so just acknowledging like over and over again um there's this this kind of conversation where it's like everything is equal and standard and that's the you know how we operate when it's not and uh that disparity has an impact and I mean the decisions we're making are based on the standard but it's flawed and so just making sure we're not forgetting in a community that's been overlooked or underserved or just, you know, gentrified. Um, often the people see things differently and that's why they say, you know, they're not as apt to just go along with things, you know, status quo or the way they are um in the same way.

I'm trying to just not say say the thing with with saying the thing. >> Yeah. I I was trying to remember which trail it was where we had to reroute um

and it did go through um because it went on a dust where we were down there and it was in in specifically in response to >> just with the rock quarry. >> Yeah. Uh just with the rock quarry with the the lower end of um oh my gosh the rook the her the heron rrookery um even in the culde-sac that actually was opened up was in a development case and it connected to another another development. And so those those are like the opportunities that we look like that's how we look at things and it's not enough for a historic community that's been you know destroyed.

And that's and that's what I'm trying to get to. Like we don't have the tools or we don't have that lens in place to make sure that we're capturing what is needed in Hayai. The same and the same thing I would say for the West End, for Braggtown, for um many areas that have have seen that disinvestment or that different

approach. Das does not did not look at or not dos but but even with the Ellerby Creek um association. It was a big push to get them to look at Goose Creek because that that creek bed and the erosion and all the same thing all the same things that are happening at Elby Creek are happening in Goose Creek. So just making sure that it's not like we're not just leaning on the standard and saying like we're just this is operation and this is how we do things but remembering like there's a reason that things have been missed or not included.

Thank you. I was thinking of um Third Creek Fork phase two because we had >> the backside where you where >> we had to reroute the whole thing based on community feedback. >> Well, they were going through the neighborhood. >> Colleagues, I'm I'm going to assert the gavl on this back.

It's a rich discussion, but a couple of colleagues are seeking recognition. So, council member Ris, council member Baker, and then council member Kabio and council for you can pick back up again. I just want to get other colleagues in. >> Thanks, Mayor Pim. Just and this is one another process questions unrelated to what council member Freeman is saying, but just for this is worth noting for

staff and for the city manager. I um Chris Perilstein who did provide comments tonight did note to me that you know BPAC reviews all the reasonzoning hearings for for bike and pedestrian infrastructure, but I don't think BPAC does look at the street closures and that's something we may want to consider that BPAC at least get a chance to see those as well as the the uh regular resonings we hear. Just want to yeah note that for staff >> colleagues. It's 9:10.

We're after 9 and our uh closed captioners need a break. We're going to take a break. Uh we'll do five rather than 10 minutes. So we'll we'll uh recommmit at 9:15. All right. We're on break.

the hearing portion has been closed. We are um the matter is before the council. Council member Baker. Okay.

Colleagues, anyone else? Uh, Council Member Freeman and Council Member Caballero, did you have anything else? You you were in the middle of a pretty robust exchange. Council member Freeman, please.

>> I I would just add that I was corrected and there was a study that was in 2017 for Pearson Town Trail and I just want to make sure that I acknowledge that. Um, it would it would need to be updated very uh uh what do you call it? It's been since 2017, a lot has changed in that area. Thank you, Council Member.

Council member Baker, I yield to you. [clears throat] >> Yeah, I just want to re reiterate what I said before, which is that I think that there are there are many scenarios where vacating a street, vacating a public rightway makes sense, especially if it's a culde-sac. Um, potentially even this

one. Uh, but I have not seen information here that that is persuasive to me. There's a there's a scenario here where we are making a mistake where there are great plans ahead for this area um that are being blocked um because of uh being immovable um and not allowing not not wanting uh or approving a sale. There's also a scenario here where uh you know a sale could happen, vacation could happen of of this land and it just makes it even easier to to displace existing residents.

We don't really know that. We don't know that at all. And to me, it feels a little bit like putting the cart before the horse to not have any idea of what the plan is uh for change in this area before approving a a change um of of ownership and and selling the uh selling this this public street. So, uh again, I think all of these are case by

case. We come in with um philosophies and policies. Um but at the end of the day, you know, we need to look at the existing conditions. Um we need to look at plans and proposals for for each of these cases and make a determination if if there's a persuasive case to to approve it or not.

And and so just by looking at all of that, um I'm not persuaded by by this case that's that's before us. Thanks. >> Thank you, council member. Colleagues, anyone else?

The resident, can I ask you one last question? Yeah, you I'm sorry. All right. I I don't remember your name.

Forgive me if you would just state your name again. >> What's your name? >> My name is Chris Mulvy Jr. >> Chris Mulvy Jr.

Thank you, Chris. You live on the street? >> Yes. >> How would you vote?

>> Sorry. >> How would you vote on this case? >> How would I vote? Like I said, it's hard.

>> It is. >> Um, >> thank you for saying that. I wonder like

what is the process if it's denied to for a new application, right? Is this is not, you know, what's the statute of limitations? I don't know a better way to put it. I would vote no.

Um, yeah. >> Thank you. I appreciate you. >> Right, colleagues.

Anyone else? >> Council member Caballero. >> Thank you. I would just wonder you um would the applicant be willing because we did have a continuation on the last one for the same for a different reason because it was the it was the right of way there was a trail that was identified we ended up getting a win-win that [snorts] everybody was happy with.

Um, I know that staff hates when uh we do this. Um, and it makes for a long night whenever it comes back around, but just um I I understand like I'm again I would be skeptical if there weren't new roofs and a completely remodeled unit. You know, I would feel like, oh no, I know what's happening here. Uh that's not the case. But I I also understand why community members are concerned,

right? Like it's a legitimate um concern. So out of curiosity if colleagues because it is up to us if we continue the case to a subsequent date future how you would feel about that. >> Um I'm not sure how to answer that because I'm pretty sure where this vote is heading.

So maybe a continuation is the best possible scenario for me. Um however um if we were going to work through the uh if we were going to work through some sort of technical issues or if the continuation was to show a plan that we have in our back pocket. We don't have that. So I'm I'm not I'm not >> I think it would be for the the gentleman who had inherited the property but hadn't received um and it could be because things were changing in your own you know the property was changing hands and whatnot. have a conversation with him, have conversations with Hay Thai Heritage Center, which is while outside of the uh required notification is a

neighbor, right? Um that would be the that would be the purpose would be to, you know, encourage your applicant to maybe actually take the meetings instead of sending not that you're not great and not knowledgeable, right? But >> um that would be the intent. So, I would say um I met with the Hay Thai Reborn group for 90 minutes last Saturday and again I talked about the concerns that I heard and I'm not in any way trying to minimize their concerns.

They were not technical concerns related to a street closure. They were concerns about things that I can't possibly resolve. Um, Hatai Heritage Center is aware of the closure and they chose not to come speak tonight. I >> think there's Well, I don't want to speak for >> and I will also say that all of our tenants were notified of this.

>> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank Thank you. Yeah, that's why Miss M. Doer has

has a relationship with that organization and and I think would have made that comment in her public comments. Not to speak for you, but um >> so that's why I raised them as a neighbor that is an important neighbor and an important organization. So that's all but >> absolutely. >> It's your it's your choice obviously.

>> Thank you. >> Thank you colleagues and and um to the Mr. This is totally your choice and within your purpose, but I are you are you taking the council member up on a request or are you are you >> Oh, I didn't realize that was a request to to continue. >> Well, let me let you know it sounded like one, a recommendation, but I you know, you you there was seems to be some reticence.

I just want to be clear that it's not we're not cajoling you or it it is totally within your >> uh you know purview to to ask for one or not. But I just want to be certain that you you weren't asking that or or I mean you responded to the question. I didn't hear a yes. I

just heard that there's no technical concern >> yet. My only technical concern is you know this is a maybe it's for the planning director. Um, I I don't know the the ramifications of a public hearing being continued. I would certainly prefer um to walk out of here with the hope of coming back and getting a a yes vote in a couple of weeks as opposed to a no vote.

And that that is that is and I want to be very transparent with you because I it it's it's important that this body does not in any way uh transmit or telegraph that a vote will go a certain way contingent upon a continuence. And it's and as chair I just want to make that very clear. >> No quit proquo. We can't guarantee anything. And if if within your consideration deliberation examination there you're not going to bring anything different back then that needs to be a part of your calculus as well. But we're not saying that do this

and it will go your way and I want to be very clear about that. >> Yes sir. >> So with that >> I'm prepared to call a vote tonight. >> Um I guess I would request a continuence then.

That's my prerogative. >> Thank you. I would just like to say, and I've said this before to to applicants and residents, I am one of the council members who asks for contingencies the most, and I will say very clearly, everyone compromises in those situations. I have had I have had it where residents had no interest in compromising.

They just didn't like the project. , etc. When we ask for continuence, my motivation is to see which we just saw with cliff street is there a way where everyone can maybe you don't love it but you can get and be comfortable with it. And so if that is if that is not possible then it is not to your benefit. So for those folks who were naysay or

you know don't approve this this is my this is asking you all to genuinely reflect and say yeah we're interested in having a conversation we have specific you know we're a organization next door we didn't know it was happening we were a property owner next door we didn't know it was happening and so I have some questions and so I just want to kind of hear this person out versus like I just don't want this thing I don't like it and so whatever they do or don't do. It's a no. >> I hear you. Thank you.

But >> do you have a clear understanding? You you've requested a continuence. So, and as as a chair, I want to, you know, keep us in order. You've requested a continuence.

Do you have a clear understanding of what you're going to be doing in that interim period based upon representation bay here tonight? What? Do you have a clear >> I think so. >> You think so?

I'm not the property owner. Um I work for the property owner. I I know he's watching and I think we know uh the task

that's ahead of us before we uh come back here again. >> All right. I don't want you to feel rushed or or or do you need to text your property owner or >> I don't believe so. >> Okay.

Council member Freeman, you had something. >> I just want to highlight that there's no project. So they've stated a number of times that they don't have a plan to do anything and they don't have anything. There's this is not like other cases where you've asked for continuence.

There's nothing to have conversation about. So the people who are here know there's a street closing request. That's it. That's all that there's there's no there's nothing to talk about.

Like there's nothing to to negotiate. So I don't know what the I mean it could be the compromise. >> Who is this property owner? We don't know who they are.

We want to know that they are committed to driving. >> They know who they are. They they know who Yeah. Yeah.

All >> I don't I Okay, colleague. Let's let's let's let's restore order. Um >> just wanted to just say that the I don't know what the continuence would be for. >> Noted.

Noted. I I think that was a thrust of my question as well. And I I want to I want you to be fully because I I don't want in any way it's not our job

to contour this or to lead you or to give you advice. That's not our job. So, I just want to make sure that you are you have everything you need >> to make and if that includes a phone call to make an informed decision on behalf of your client before we before I either conduct this binding vote >> or kick it back to staff and and I don't want to kick it back to staff wasting your time if you really don't know what's going to be different. So, I I I want you to be comfortable with your decision and and know that it is fully your decision.

>> Yes, sir. I understand completely. A request of continuence. >> You're requesting a continuence.

>> Yes. All right. Um, planning staff, do you want to give us some guidance on our on what our our docket looks like or what our schedule looks like? And and madam clerk, madam attorney, just for clarification, this would be keeping the public hearing open, correct?

>> Certain. >> To a date certain, does that have to be voted on? What I'll get to that information right now? Go ahead. >> We took a look at the upcoming um docket agenda schedule. Um, we want to

recommend February 2nd. February second continuation. >> All right, then I'm going to reopen this public hearing and keep it open uh to February 2nd uh 2026. Does that date work for you?

>> If you come to the microphone. Sorry. Come to the microphone. >> Yes, sir.

I'm sorry. Sorry, I'm getting um >> um I think they want you to vote. >> They want the vote. >> Yes.

>> All right. All right. Well, this public hearing is closed. >> Thank you.

>> All right. >> Recording stopped. >> All right. Item number 16.

Uh this uh motion this uh item requires two uh motions and votes. The first uh motion is to permanently close the entirety 22 229 linear feet of Hai Lane, East Old Fagedville Street. >> So moved.

>> Second. >> I have a motion in second. Please open the vote. >> The motion failed unanimously.

>> Need to amend the uh placement. All right. Well, then item number 16 is discharged. I want to thank members of the community for coming out tonight.

Colleagues, one other matter, his honor, the mayor does need an excused absence for this work session coming up this Thursday. I'll entertain a motion to excuse the mayor from this work session. >> So moved. >> Second.

>> I have a motion in second. Madam clerk, please open the vote. Would you please open a vote? >> Please close the vote and report out.

Motion passes 6. >> All right. The mayor is excused. Council member Freeman and I will not be there.

Council member Cabier as ranking member. I believe you'll hold the gavl on Thursday at this work session and and we yeah there'll be quorum as long as four of you are there. All right colleagues,

thank you so much. That ends our published uh agenda uh for this evening. It is November 17th at 9:30. We are adjourned. May God bless Durham.